This is from a typical run with me running one Kemocite.
Kemocite is contributing around 2k DPS. What I want to know is, without running a full torpedo boat (which these guys clearly aren't doing based on their FAW DPS, how are they getting so much more Kemocite damage?
This is from 9/29/2015.
I'm tempted to go try it out with three ranks of Kemocite running. I have a feeling my DPS will be lower when I do that.
This is from a typical run with me running one Kemocite.
Kemocite is contributing around 2k DPS. What I want to know is, without running a full torpedo boat (which these guys clearly aren't doing based on their FAW DPS, how are they getting so much more Kemocite damage?
This is from 9/29/2015.
I'm tempted to go try it out with three ranks of Kemocite running. I have a feeling my DPS will be lower when I do that.
You using Neutronic Torp?
You need to be using Neutronic Torp + Bioneural Gel-packs. Probably a few more things in there, but I'm not going to spoil it for you. (Maybe The Counter Command console as well).
Also the bug involves multiple Kemocites slotted. The more kemocites slotted the more damage you do (This is the bug)
I also believe Flowcaps or Particle Gens increases your Radiation Damage. I always mix up the two.
Also I ran into him again ^_^.
If in a Scimitar the build is 1x Neutronic, 4x AP DBBs, then BCB, and the two 360 deg beams in the back or w/e.
Remember Kemocite is a lockbox BOFF skill which only has a chance TWICE out of each lockbox. This not only makes it rarer than most ships, it makes it worthwhile for DPS.
I fail to see how the rarity of anything influences the question of it being OP. Yes, rare items are supposed to be better than common (terms meant as in normal language, not as a blue vs white descriptor) ones, otherwise nobody would care too much for them. But the question of OP is a different one (if anything at all, rare OP items are worse than common OP items - in the latter case everybody gets a chance, even though it's boring, in the former some lucky guys drew the "blow everything to hell" ticket and everybody else can quit playing the game because they do not get a shot in.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
The more kemocite's slotted equals more hits per target. That's what's broken right now, and that kemocite doesn't need to be activated for the hits to happen. I think it's also been stated that activating just the one instance (if you're trying to play legit) still does a double proc on hits.
The tactic is to use GW to pull all the targets within 1km, then you hit them with a spread and you just get a bunch of splash hits, and stacking debuffs.
So if you have just 6 targets, you pull them together and fire off your TS3 which is 3 torps at 3 targets right?
3x3 = 9 kemos x number of kemos slotted lets just say 3 so now we are 27 kemos then times the number of targets 6
now your one spread just hit 162 times in that moment. then at most 30 seconds later you hit them again for another 162 hits.
That one parse you showed he had 1900 hits. in combat for 90 seconds or so, and got 3 spreads off (minimum) guess running 3 copies of kemo with 9-10 targets grouped per volley.
So the triggering of the ability is what's broken, not the ability itself.
This is from a typical run with me running one Kemocite.
Kemocite is contributing around 2k DPS. What I want to know is, without running a full torpedo boat (which these guys clearly aren't doing based on their FAW DPS, how are they getting so much more Kemocite damage?
This is from 9/29/2015.
I'm tempted to go try it out with three ranks of Kemocite running. I have a feeling my DPS will be lower when I do that.
You using Neutronic Torp?
You need to be using Neutronic Torp + Bioneural Gel-packs. Probably a few more things in there, but I'm not going to spoil it for you. (Maybe The Counter Command console as well).
Also the bug involves multiple Kemocites slotted. The more kemocites slotted the more damage you do (This is the bug)
I also believe Flowcaps or Particle Gens increases your Radiation Damage. I always mix up the two.
Also I ran into him again ^_^.
If in a Scimitar the build is 1x Neutronic, 4x AP DBBs, then BCB, and the two 360 deg beams in the back or w/e.
Here's the thing. All those set bonuses and consoles equate to a 50%-ish boost to Kemocite. The bonus procs on BFAW (if there are any) are a negligible DPS gain. On my current build, you'd see around 1k DPS from using all of them.
My point is, the issue here isn't with Kemocite. The bigs may affect other abilities but they aren't contributing to insane DPS.
It's with the torpedo abilities.
Kemocite isn't what's broken or OP here. I can demonstrate a hundred builds where KLW contributes reasonable but less than remarkable DPS. Torpedo Spread III is where things seem to be broken.
Although I ran a build with the Antiproton Torp, again, that didn't magically generate higher numbers without Torpedo Spread.
And I ran a build with no torpedoes and 3 copies of KLW and my DPS went down.
TS3 seems to be the broken toy here. Maybe not the only bugged thing but it's the only bug generating insane DPS with KLW.
Put KLW on a shared recharge with TS. It won't fix every bug but it will curb the excessive DPS quickly.
Your OP picture doesnt show proof of any Kemo. You could at least show the DPS breakdown of that player assuming doing Kemo stacking on that run. Of course that 140k run is totally different from the 188k run but same player.
Besides, Darth Vader's account is a top end player even before Kemo stacking. Most likely most players who copy paste Darth Vader's build wont be able to replicate 140k+ run at CCA.
The more kemocite's slotted equals more hits per target. That's what's broken right now, and that kemocite doesn't need to be activated for the hits to happen. I think it's also been stated that activating just the one instance (if you're trying to play legit) still does a double proc on hits.
The tactic is to use GW to pull all the targets within 1km, then you hit them with a spread and you just get a bunch of splash hits, and stacking debuffs.
So if you have just 6 targets, you pull them together and fire off your TS3 which is 3 torps at 3 targets right?
3x3 = 9 kemos x number of kemos slotted lets just say 3 so now we are 27 kemos then times the number of targets 6
now your one spread just hit 162 times in that moment. then at most 30 seconds later you hit them again for another 162 hits.
That one parse you showed he had 1900 hits. in combat for 90 seconds or so, and got 3 spreads off (minimum) guess running 3 copies of kemo with 9-10 targets grouped per volley.
So the triggering of the ability is what's broken, not the ability itself.
I'm doing all of that minus using torpedoes and TS. And it puts my DPS in a much more reasonable ballpark. 50-60k is really not unreasonable for the gear, traits, and ship I'm using. (It's an Annorax running an AHOD build with Kemocite and Leech, using GW for target control on beam banks. Running one Zemok as well. 50-60k is very realistic with that.)
I'm not disputing that I could get 100k+ more with a Neutronic, a few shifted consoles, and torpedo spread. I'm saying that even with bugs or double procs, KLW is not really very broken by itself. Even with KLW multi-proccing, I actually get lower than 50k DPS for that tradeoff on a non-Torp build.
It's KLW + TS.
If every other bug was left out there and they just made it so that KLW and Torpedo Spread had a duplicate ability cooldown, 100k or more of this bugged DPS would disappear. Bugs would still be there with double procs but they would be insignificant.
On my torp boat, KLW DPS ranges between 6-10k DPS in a run. I use KLW2+TS2. The insane numbers really start at TS3. Another torp boat I have uses KLW2+TS3 and I have seen KLW damage swing above 20k in an ISA. The double proc'ing on the higher number of torps in the air on TS3 is where the cheese really starts happening and it goes downhill fast as you add the number of KLW stacked.
A good test to see how hard KLW will hit with torps is to slot one copy (the copy you intend to really be running) and do your normal runs without activating KLW. It'll still proc on TS, but only once (the way it was meant to). I tried it with the boat that ran TS3+KLW2 and got around 10-15k on KLW vs 20k+ on Neutronic, A much more reasonable scenario I think.
The problem with Kemo today is the multi stacking and double proc'ing of your activated kemo. If it activated only once, then it isn't really as OP as some of you may suggest.
Like they fix anything fast...did the fix plasma doping fast? Did they fix crit only working on FaW fast? Did they fix SS fast?
Cannons were clearly the dominate weapon for a long time...now it's shifted to beams...fixes are slow and *balance* isn't in Cryptic's vocabulary. It's usually extremes...
Beams are not. I have Kemocite. I have three ranks of it. And if I run all three on my ship without torpedoes, I do 40k DPS. My DPS drops if I equip all my Kemocites vs. just one.
This ways to me it isn't strictly Kemocite that's the problem. It's in the torpedo spread's scripted response to Kemocite, mostly.
FaW has a chance to proc Kemo, but if one procs, they all proc, as demonstrated in the video below. TS has a 100% chance to proc Kemo ON LAUNCH, and on impact for the activated Kemo. The more torps one fires per target, the more Kemo procs one would get. FaW behaves the same way, except if you activate Kemo, you have a CHANCE for a proc. If you don't activate Kemo, ALL your Kemo's proc.
Unless specifically stated (and backed up by testing, because.... yea..) NOTHING boosts radiation damage except 2pc Delta Ordinance, Counter Command Multi-Conduit Energy Relay, and any "All Damage" boosts.
Kemo is broken w/ both FaW AND TS. It's just most prominent w/ TS. The video I posted above shows the busted FaW nature when you DO NOT ACTIVATE any Kemo (28:45 and onward).
Kemo needs a fix, not a nerf.
To the OP, without a breakdown of that specific parse, all we have is conjecture. I can easily see that happening, though, because there are people who want to abuse KLW to the nth degree. We call them Kemo-Cheesers.
@stoleviathan99 for your setup, are you activating KLW before/after FaW? How many beams do you run? How often do you fire? How many hits actually hit the target(s)? All those factors contribute to KLW damage.
So I slotted Kemo 2 but did not activate it during Torpedo Spread 3. Given how a non-activated Kemo skill procs just once, I figured this was the best way to find out how much DPS it'll bring had it been WAI. As you can see, it is nothing like the inflated logs people are seeing:
The additional Kemo attacks vs Neutronic cones from the AOE explosion hitting multiple targets (Nanite Spheres clustered in a GW). The Kemo stack there is buffed by Delta 2pc, CC Multi Conduit Relay and APO.
Edit: Worth noting I was running 2 copies of TT1 and TS3. When fixed, Kemo will even be lower in damage due to CDs. This simulation is closer to what having 2 copies of Kemo would be like.
Kemo does not need a nerf. It just needs to be fixed.
If every other bug was left out there and they just made it so that KLW and Torpedo Spread had a duplicate ability cooldown, 100k or more of this bugged DPS would disappear. Bugs would still be there with double procs but they would be insignificant.
There really isn't much of an issue with someone running one copy of kemo...
Having said that as I and a handful of honest people have said for a long time the torpedo proc should be 33% not 100%. at 100% it simply rewards Spread more then anything else.
Of course the main bug right now is the people slotting 2, 3, 4 and yes some even more copies of kemo and racking and pushing 200k DPS... which is one of the more silly bugs Cryptic has ignored in the name of sales for a very long time.
I already see how Cryptic will "fix" it. They will just lower dilithium rewards from STFs (like the did in the past) because people can clear it faster...
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
I already see how Cryptic will "fix" it. They will just lower dilithium rewards from STFs (like the did in the past) because people can clear it faster...
This sounds exactly right.
They will reduce advanced payouts 50%... and add an infected Elite with the exact same baddies but 10x more HP making sure the poor kids pony up to play at the big kids table. lol
Having said that as I and a handful of honest people have said for a long time the torpedo proc should be 33% not 100%. at 100% it simply rewards Spread more then anything else.
I can't agree with this. I have been using torpedoes for a long time, and this ability is what the torpedo community needed.
It's stupid on mobs that are within 1km, but spread them out and it makes it so torpedoes can be a viable build in advanced/elite stf's. (Think Hive Onslaught since you can't GW Cubes).
Maybe just get rid of the AoE effect? So torps still get a nice punch and debuff on hit.
Maybe just limit Kemocite to one slot per ship? Not sure how difficult that would be with regards to coding.
If it works it might be the best solution to the "problem" rather then nerfing the ability. I run Kemo 1 (1 copy) with TS3 and the Crystalline Torp. It gives me a dps boost sure, but not anything of the magnitude people are reporting for the multiple slots of it.
Unless specifically stated (and backed up by testing, because.... yea..) NOTHING boosts radiation damage except 2pc Delta Ordinance, Counter Command Multi-Conduit Energy Relay, and any "All Damage" boosts.
Kemo is broken w/ both FaW AND TS. It's just most prominent w/ TS. The video I posted above shows the busted FaW nature when you DO NOT ACTIVATE any Kemo (28:45 and onward).
Kemo needs a fix, not a nerf.
To the OP, without a breakdown of that specific parse, all we have is conjecture. I can easily see that happening, though, because there are people who want to abuse KLW to the nth degree. We call them Kemo-Cheesers.
@stoleviathan99 for your setup, are you activating KLW before/after FaW? How many beams do you run? How often do you fire? How many hits actually hit the target(s)? All those factors contribute to KLW damage.
I am activating Kemo. I didn't realize that activating it every recharge means I'm not getting extra procs. So what you see with my parse is pretty much what it should be doing.
This is with 3 ranks of Kemo, never activated, again no torpedoes or radiation boost.
Yes, they shouldn't be proccing without being activated. They may be proccing on FAW (although I'm thinking maybe the issue is with Crits -- Kemo shouldn't ever Crit should it?).
I am not using Antiproton here. I'm using Tetryon.
Actually, if Kemocite couldn't crit and couldn't apply to Torpedo spreads, I think the damage it's generating would be entirely reasonable.
Having said that as I and a handful of honest people have said for a long time the torpedo proc should be 33% not 100%. at 100% it simply rewards Spread more then anything else.
I can't agree with this. I have been using torpedoes for a long time, and this ability is what the torpedo community needed.
A lockbox ability ability shouldn't be what makes a weapon viable. The weapon should, itself, be viable.
Remove the Kemocite stacking with TS. Buff torpedoes as weapons.
Removing a broken advantage for a weapon doesn't mean you can't simultaneously buff elsewhere, just in a less broken way.
Lag has gotten worse than when they fixed it a couple of months ago. Any type of pve with kemo and ts3 seems like I have moments that feel like an snr. It's getting old and I really don't enjoy these lagfests.
Comments
Kemocite is contributing around 2k DPS. What I want to know is, without running a full torpedo boat (which these guys clearly aren't doing based on their FAW DPS, how are they getting so much more Kemocite damage?
This is from 9/29/2015.
I'm tempted to go try it out with three ranks of Kemocite running. I have a feeling my DPS will be lower when I do that.
Hey look, I see the Pareto Principle!
Welcome to the most unbalanced game I have ever played, this isn't new I'm afraid. Even if this particular issue gets fixed, they'll just be another.
You using Neutronic Torp?
You need to be using Neutronic Torp + Bioneural Gel-packs. Probably a few more things in there, but I'm not going to spoil it for you. (Maybe The Counter Command console as well).
Also the bug involves multiple Kemocites slotted. The more kemocites slotted the more damage you do (This is the bug)
I also believe Flowcaps or Particle Gens increases your Radiation Damage. I always mix up the two.
Also I ran into him again ^_^.
If in a Scimitar the build is 1x Neutronic, 4x AP DBBs, then BCB, and the two 360 deg beams in the back or w/e.
I fail to see how the rarity of anything influences the question of it being OP. Yes, rare items are supposed to be better than common (terms meant as in normal language, not as a blue vs white descriptor) ones, otherwise nobody would care too much for them. But the question of OP is a different one (if anything at all, rare OP items are worse than common OP items - in the latter case everybody gets a chance, even though it's boring, in the former some lucky guys drew the "blow everything to hell" ticket and everybody else can quit playing the game because they do not get a shot in.
The tactic is to use GW to pull all the targets within 1km, then you hit them with a spread and you just get a bunch of splash hits, and stacking debuffs.
So if you have just 6 targets, you pull them together and fire off your TS3 which is 3 torps at 3 targets right?
3x3 = 9 kemos x number of kemos slotted lets just say 3 so now we are 27 kemos then times the number of targets 6
now your one spread just hit 162 times in that moment. then at most 30 seconds later you hit them again for another 162 hits.
That one parse you showed he had 1900 hits. in combat for 90 seconds or so, and got 3 spreads off (minimum) guess running 3 copies of kemo with 9-10 targets grouped per volley.
So the triggering of the ability is what's broken, not the ability itself.
Well 150 million x the number copies...
Here's the thing. All those set bonuses and consoles equate to a 50%-ish boost to Kemocite. The bonus procs on BFAW (if there are any) are a negligible DPS gain. On my current build, you'd see around 1k DPS from using all of them.
My point is, the issue here isn't with Kemocite. The bigs may affect other abilities but they aren't contributing to insane DPS.
It's with the torpedo abilities.
Kemocite isn't what's broken or OP here. I can demonstrate a hundred builds where KLW contributes reasonable but less than remarkable DPS. Torpedo Spread III is where things seem to be broken.
Although I ran a build with the Antiproton Torp, again, that didn't magically generate higher numbers without Torpedo Spread.
And I ran a build with no torpedoes and 3 copies of KLW and my DPS went down.
TS3 seems to be the broken toy here. Maybe not the only bugged thing but it's the only bug generating insane DPS with KLW.
Put KLW on a shared recharge with TS. It won't fix every bug but it will curb the excessive DPS quickly.
Besides, Darth Vader's account is a top end player even before Kemo stacking. Most likely most players who copy paste Darth Vader's build wont be able to replicate 140k+ run at CCA.
I'm doing all of that minus using torpedoes and TS. And it puts my DPS in a much more reasonable ballpark. 50-60k is really not unreasonable for the gear, traits, and ship I'm using. (It's an Annorax running an AHOD build with Kemocite and Leech, using GW for target control on beam banks. Running one Zemok as well. 50-60k is very realistic with that.)
I'm not disputing that I could get 100k+ more with a Neutronic, a few shifted consoles, and torpedo spread. I'm saying that even with bugs or double procs, KLW is not really very broken by itself. Even with KLW multi-proccing, I actually get lower than 50k DPS for that tradeoff on a non-Torp build.
It's KLW + TS.
If every other bug was left out there and they just made it so that KLW and Torpedo Spread had a duplicate ability cooldown, 100k or more of this bugged DPS would disappear. Bugs would still be there with double procs but they would be insignificant.
A good test to see how hard KLW will hit with torps is to slot one copy (the copy you intend to really be running) and do your normal runs without activating KLW. It'll still proc on TS, but only once (the way it was meant to). I tried it with the boat that ran TS3+KLW2 and got around 10-15k on KLW vs 20k+ on Neutronic, A much more reasonable scenario I think.
The problem with Kemo today is the multi stacking and double proc'ing of your activated kemo. If it activated only once, then it isn't really as OP as some of you may suggest.
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
I C wut U did thar....
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
FaW has a chance to proc Kemo, but if one procs, they all proc, as demonstrated in the video below. TS has a 100% chance to proc Kemo ON LAUNCH, and on impact for the activated Kemo. The more torps one fires per target, the more Kemo procs one would get. FaW behaves the same way, except if you activate Kemo, you have a CHANCE for a proc. If you don't activate Kemo, ALL your Kemo's proc.
Congratulations, you can now break the game.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
Agreed, a lesson will be taught no lesson will be learned.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Unless specifically stated (and backed up by testing, because.... yea..) NOTHING boosts radiation damage except 2pc Delta Ordinance, Counter Command Multi-Conduit Energy Relay, and any "All Damage" boosts.
Kemo is broken w/ both FaW AND TS. It's just most prominent w/ TS. The video I posted above shows the busted FaW nature when you DO NOT ACTIVATE any Kemo (28:45 and onward).
Kemo needs a fix, not a nerf.
To the OP, without a breakdown of that specific parse, all we have is conjecture. I can easily see that happening, though, because there are people who want to abuse KLW to the nth degree. We call them Kemo-Cheesers.
@stoleviathan99 for your setup, are you activating KLW before/after FaW? How many beams do you run? How often do you fire? How many hits actually hit the target(s)? All those factors contribute to KLW damage.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
The additional Kemo attacks vs Neutronic cones from the AOE explosion hitting multiple targets (Nanite Spheres clustered in a GW). The Kemo stack there is buffed by Delta 2pc, CC Multi Conduit Relay and APO.
Edit: Worth noting I was running 2 copies of TT1 and TS3. When fixed, Kemo will even be lower in damage due to CDs. This simulation is closer to what having 2 copies of Kemo would be like.
Kemo does not need a nerf. It just needs to be fixed.
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
There really isn't much of an issue with someone running one copy of kemo...
Having said that as I and a handful of honest people have said for a long time the torpedo proc should be 33% not 100%. at 100% it simply rewards Spread more then anything else.
Of course the main bug right now is the people slotting 2, 3, 4 and yes some even more copies of kemo and racking and pushing 200k DPS... which is one of the more silly bugs Cryptic has ignored in the name of sales for a very long time.
This sounds exactly right.
They will reduce advanced payouts 50%... and add an infected Elite with the exact same baddies but 10x more HP making sure the poor kids pony up to play at the big kids table. lol
Are you referring to the developers, or the players?
When it comes to powercreep by any means available players and developers go hand in hand since early 2409, so both.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
I can't agree with this. I have been using torpedoes for a long time, and this ability is what the torpedo community needed.
It's stupid on mobs that are within 1km, but spread them out and it makes it so torpedoes can be a viable build in advanced/elite stf's. (Think Hive Onslaught since you can't GW Cubes).
Maybe just get rid of the AoE effect? So torps still get a nice punch and debuff on hit.
If it works it might be the best solution to the "problem" rather then nerfing the ability. I run Kemo 1 (1 copy) with TS3 and the Crystalline Torp. It gives me a dps boost sure, but not anything of the magnitude people are reporting for the multiple slots of it.
I am activating Kemo. I didn't realize that activating it every recharge means I'm not getting extra procs. So what you see with my parse is pretty much what it should be doing.
I'll try one without activating Kemo...
Yes, they shouldn't be proccing without being activated. They may be proccing on FAW (although I'm thinking maybe the issue is with Crits -- Kemo shouldn't ever Crit should it?).
I am not using Antiproton here. I'm using Tetryon.
Actually, if Kemocite couldn't crit and couldn't apply to Torpedo spreads, I think the damage it's generating would be entirely reasonable.
A lockbox ability ability shouldn't be what makes a weapon viable. The weapon should, itself, be viable.
Remove the Kemocite stacking with TS. Buff torpedoes as weapons.
Removing a broken advantage for a weapon doesn't mean you can't simultaneously buff elsewhere, just in a less broken way.