omplete nonsense and ignores the fact that we've had interactions with the Dominion earlier in the storyline during the Cardassian Arc.
While they might not have been receptive at first. Kind of hard to ignore the fact that Vanderos was under surveillance by the Iconians. Not like the Dominion would suddenly decide to ignore developments in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants just when the Iconians show up. And its not like theyd assume the Iconians would be happy with JUST the Alpha, Beta and Delta Quadrants.
The only times we interact with The Dominion are
A. When we kill one of their vorta attempting to capture The Rapier.
B. When the 2800 fleet shows up, and The Dominion demands we release the female changling before they will do anything about it.
In both instance they make it VERY clear that they don't like us, they don't want to talk to us, and they don't want anything to do with us ever.
On top of that
-The Dominion doesn't know they are under surveillance by The Iconians, as that is something Sela never learned, thus, she couldn't have told them.
-The Dominion hasn't been monitoring the Alpha Quad since the end of The Dominion war. There is only one way for them to get to the AQ, the wormhole, and they can't sneak any ship through it.
Maybe you should play the game instead of reading wiki cliff notes.
Sela and her Task Force of Dominion Ships would like a word with you. In diplomacy, no one ever says whats really on their minds.
You might want to go back and play that whole lost Dominion Fleet Arc....They explicitly say theyve been watching us. Theyre well aware of our situation in that instance and its not beyond belief that they know our current situation. Again, not a far fetch they know what we know of the Iconians. And I seriously doubt that the old 'Theyre coming for you next' tactic wasnt used by Sela the first chance she got.
Ah yes, you'll question my intelligence without possessing the basic logic skills to understand that if the Dominion has committed fleets, then it has committed everything and declared war because that's how the Dominion works. it doesn't deal in half-measures.
But please, by all means continue to demonstrate your ignorance of canon, basic military strategy, logic and common sense while insulting others. I do enjoy when people embarrass themselves in front of me.
I will when you keep bringing up things no one is debating to try to move goalposts.
No one is denying that The Dominion is fully committed.
All that is being done is pointing out THAT CHANGES NOTHING because The Dominion is still in the Gamma quad, and not in the Alpha/Beta qauds, thus meaning they are in no position to stop the fall of the alpha/Beta quad species.
And, if you had actually read the FULL text of the computers from Sphere of Influence, you would know that The Iconians also said they believed it possible to beat The Dominion after they(The Iconians) had the resources of the alpha and Beta quads at their disposal.
Your entire argument is based on this fantastical idea that just The Dominion saying "we are joining the war now!" is just going to cause all The Iconian ships to instantly blow up.
No, my entire argument is that the Dominion joining the war puts the Iconians in an unwinnable position.
You and others seem to have little understanding of the Sphere of Influence dialog. If they must wait to fully conquer the alpha and beta quadrants, which means the alliance, the Breen, the Tholians, the Cardassians and others - to say nothing of the fact that they now have the delta quadrant coalition to deal with which they didn't expect - then they don't have the ability to subjugate the Dominion while still fighting a war with the other powers.
One task force made it to Earth, but logically, given how we've seen the Dominion behave time and again, more would be on the way. Given how easily the alliance tends to hijack Iconian space gates, you might not even need the wormhole.
I understand Sphere of Influence just fine.
The Iconians have both the power and resources to bring down the Dominion. They simply (and with good reason) do not want to get bogged down in a two-front war with a fresh power fielding fanatical troops, top notch technology (even if it's inferior to that of the Iconians), and plenty of experience at warfare against technological powerhouses.
Thus, the logical strategy of taking the Alpha/Beta Quadrants before moving on to the Gamma Quadrant.
But I do wonder if their little pet project getting foiled in the Delta Quadrant screwed up their timetable. The Vaadwaur were supposed to keep the Delta powers tied up. But our heroes screwed that up big time.
I honestly don't think we should only take the ships visible on screen into account, STOs engine is rather limited after all, that's why even epic battles are more like small skirmishes at the point where the player happens to be.
That being said, it still didn't seem to be enough to turn the tide and personally I wouldn't have aborted the entire mission just because Sela of all people tells us our formerly biggest enemy is suddenly here to help us and totally won't take over our part of the galaxy afterwards, if they even succeed. I mean, all we have is a vague notion that the Iconians did not want to fight on two fronts, that's not afraid of the dominion, that's common sense and merely attacking the weakest link first.
Also, we should consider that while we can recognize classic "there's gonna be a twist about the villain" tropes, the alliance expected to find the "demons of air and darkness" in the past. Vile conquerors and tyrants who rule over the universe with Iron fists, suppressing every form of creativity and cultural development but their own and eradicating species unsuited to serve them, this is more like going back to eradicate the borg.
On that note btw.: The Picard knew!
It should teach us not to question the Picards wisdom.
It's not the first time the victors in a war vilified the losers, and it won't be the last. After all which is easier to stomach telling your kids, "The Iconians were monsters we lived in fear of and had to destroy," or "They wouldn't share their toys so we smashed them up and tried to find out how to make them from the wreckage."?
That said, the Dewa III days could be where the Demons of Air and Darkness reputation came about, and over time their past nature was forgotten.
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'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Sela and her Task Force of Dominion Ships would like a word with you. In diplomacy, no one ever says whats really on their minds.
You might want to go back and play that whole lost Dominion Fleet Arc....They explicitly say theyve been watching us. Theyre well aware of our situation in that instance and its not beyond belief that they know our current situation. Again, not a far fetch they know what we know of the Iconians. And I seriously doubt that the old 'Theyre coming for you next' tactic wasnt used by Sela the first chance she got.
And, as Sela says in the Iconian rep messages, she can talk to them because she isn't Federation or Klingon.
Which I honestly find a bit questionable.
It was Cardassians and Romulans that launched the attack on the Founder homeworld.
"Star Trek: Deep Space Nine: Broken Link (#4.25)" (1996)
Garak: On behalf of my people, I'd like to learn if there were any survivors after our attack on your homeland?
Female Shapeshifter: Cardassian survivors?
Garak: Yes.
Female Shapeshifter: There were no Cardassian survivors.
Garak: You mean... they're all dead?
Female Shapeshifter: They're dead. You're dead. Cardassia is dead. Your people were doomed the moment they attacked us.
Sure, that was a bit of a "badass boast" to intimidate Garak, and the Dominion "arranged" themselves with the Cardassians for a while (including holding a few of the alleged dead Cardassians as prisoner). But giving the boast it is not very surprising that the last days the femae changling was determined to eradicate Cardassia to punish them for their failurse and betrayal. She was basically making good on an old threat. And the Romulans were probably awaiting the same fate.
The Dominion just is very... efficient in its dealings with other species. They will seek discord and will attempt to trick their enemies into doing their dirty work, using smokes and mirrors to ensure their enemy is never prepared. Just think of how the Dominion basically faked a big invasion force coming towards DS9 just so that the Federation and Klingon fleets that would assemble to fight them would be caught in the supernova caused by the Changling that replaced Bashir. A pretty devious plan.
Of course, I guess one could argue that the disease created by Section 31 was even nastier to them then the Cardassian and Romulan attack - that one was carefully choreographed to be a trap for their forces. But the disease? They didn't anticipate it, and it would have worked. It was an act of compassion that saved them.
But it's not really a reason to listen to anyone in the Alpha or Beta Quadrant. Neelix would have a better shot at it.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Well technically it was Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order who launched unsanctioned attack....but doesn't matter, the fact she can work with Dominion is a little fishy to me.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
It's still questionable how much the Founders actually hate the Romulans. It was a Changeling the manipulated them into attacking the Omarian nebula. The failed attack on the Founder HW wasn't even a Romulan plan...
Sela and her Task Force of Dominion Ships would like a word with you. In diplomacy, no one ever says whats really on their minds.
You might want to go back and play that whole lost Dominion Fleet Arc....They explicitly say theyve been watching us. Theyre well aware of our situation in that instance and its not beyond belief that they know our current situation. Again, not a far fetch they know what we know of the Iconians. And I seriously doubt that the old 'Theyre coming for you next' tactic wasnt used by Sela the first chance she got.
And, as Sela says in the Iconian rep messages, she can talk to them because she isn't Federation or Klingon.
Dear lord man, have you played the game at all?
I havent received any Iconian Rep Messages. But Im not shocked at all that she would say something idiotic like that in her own arrogance. And Dear Lord MAN, have you ever watched DS9? The Romulan Star Empire isnt exactly in the Dominions good graces either. They did break a Non-Aggression Pact with the Dominion. The Federation and Klingons, unlike the Romulans never betrayed the Dominion. They were aggressive with each other from the start. So does it make any sense that the RSE would have the Dominions ear over the Feds or Klingons? Could it be that Sela is just trying a little hard to sell her worth to the PC? And look, youre buying it hook line and sinker....
Ok it is just a game based on an old TV series, but I gave up on the hack writers of this re-imagined version a very long time ago. Since you asked, here are my thoughts on what is so very WRONG with the lore.
The Iconians went extinct 200,000 years ago, but had more advanced technology then than when Captain Picard found the ruins in STNG:"Contagion". IF any present day Iconians survived, there would be no battle, the Federation, Klingons, and Dominion would be extinct.
Iconians didn't need ships to travel, they used gateways. Obviously this game wanted to sell ships.
Dominion should not have been brought into the mix. Did Odo turn evil on us?
There should be 3 factions minimum by now in this game. KDF, Federation, and Romulan, instead as a Romulan you are forced to join KDF or Federation. Romulans would rather die than to serve under an inferior species.
The Ferengi are still greedy, misogynistic, untrustworthy little trolls... what happened to the vast social changes Rom made as Grand Nagus of Ferenginar?
Just like George Lucas has entire planets with the same climate, Star Trek has entire species with all the same social traits. Starfleet has only one academy in all the known galaxy on Earth in one city San Francisco. The US is only one country, imagine if all the recruits had to show up at Fort Bragg. Yes the game is flawed because the show was flawed, nothing is perfect in a fictional universe.
You have multiple writers who wrote about things and didn't check what the prior one wrote about a given subject. This is why transporter technology went from turning matter to energy and back to matter, to disassembly of molecules, to magic of Scotty's new planet hopping technology in the more recent movies. It doesn't exist so there are no technical manuals to consult.
Do what I do, turn off you brain and enjoy the show!
Ok it is just a game based on an old TV series, but I gave up on the hack writers of this re-imagined version a very long time ago. Since you asked, here are my thoughts on what is so very WRONG with the lore.
The Iconians went extinct 200,000 years ago, but had more advanced technology then than when Captain Picard found the ruins in STNG:"Contagion". IF any present day Iconians survived, there would be no battle, the Federation, Klingons, and Dominion would be extinct.
Iconians didn't need ships to travel, they used gateways. Obviously this game wanted to sell ships.
Dominion should not have been brought into the mix. Did Odo turn evil on us?
There should be 3 factions minimum by now in this game. KDF, Federation, and Romulan, instead as a Romulan you are forced to join KDF or Federation. Romulans would rather die than to serve under an inferior species.
The Ferengi are still greedy, misogynistic, untrustworthy little trolls... what happened to the vast social changes Rom made as Grand Nagus of Ferenginar?
Most technological advancements in Star Trek are made by humanity, it's their defining point of the Star Trek universe. Hell, the advancements in Technology over the last hundred years in real life alone is an anomaly within historical reference, we've gone from a culture where getting a message halfway round the world took hundreds of dollars or weeks to get there to one where it costs virtually nothing and arrives instantly in less than 40 years, in Star Trek Vulcans had warp technology for hundreds if not thousands of Earth years, yet hadn't progressed beyond Warp 5, within 100 years of the Federation forming and getting human ingenuity into the mix we all had Warp 9. Also don't forget that we've been studying the spheres which were built by Iconians and their servitors advancing our technology greatly.
Didn't need doesn't mean they never had, the existence of ancient starship sized gateways points to this, also having very few ships worked out so well for the Iconians last time didn't it?
Bringing the Dominion was a necessary evil the storyline needed to bring Sela back, they needed a race that could arrive in time to buy the time the timeship needed, but was far enough away that Sela would be safe in the meantime. Also there's no indication that the Dominion arriving was an evil act so why ask if Odo is evil?
There are three factions in the game everywhere except PvP, PvP is pretty much the only area where your choice as a Romulan counts for anything.
It's been what? 30 years, it's impossible to conduct an entire social reform in that amount of time, especially with a space faring civilization.
I know it's probably a bit late (I hadn't time to run the mission earlier) and lizwei seems to have abandoned this thread, but maybe somebody else can chime in on a question:
Is there any evidence or at least indication that there has been content "lost on the cutting room floor"? While games will be under development until the last second before shipping, and often enough even beyond, stuff like an episode takes a lot of time to develop. And I would guess that bringing in specific voice actors (as opposed to "get somebody to voice that random Ferengi we've never met before and will never meet again") won't shorten the time.
(As to the main topic: I certainly do not read that message from the Iconian terminal as "We will lose against the dominion" but as "Caution, they may be more dangerous". Especially considering the very small number of real Iconians, where every loss is major. But, as has been stated, even if they were sure the Dominion would eventually beat them - the war has started and just ending it with an "oh, we're losing, so let's call it a draw" is not a very common occurence. So probably at least, as has been stated, Earth will fall, and there is a great chance that also Qo'nos and New Rom will become uninhabitable. The state of the various other planets is unknown, but since the fall of a major one, like Vulcan, Breen or Gorn, would probably have been mentioned, we can say they are at least still there. Still, imagine a war the US would lead against evil-of-the-day. New York, Chicago, Los Angeles are being bombarded with nukes. But China just joined and will send a platoon or two and then take on the enemy later after the US lies in ruins. All major cities will be uninhabitable, but we can set up shop in Boise. Oh, there's another possibility, a long shot, but it will save all of them. Guess which option would be taken. Guess once more which option would be taken in a fictional setting which loves against-all-odds scenarios).
About the last discussion why Romulans aren't a "real faction": waht does that have to do with this thread?
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
It DID happen early in STO when they were rushing to get the game ready for launch. Divide et Impera is the most infamous example, It was written as part 1 of 3 and the other two parts would have you hunt down the Zelle infiltrator. But only part 1 was actually made, thus the ep ends with an awkward cliffhanger.
Comments
Sela and her Task Force of Dominion Ships would like a word with you. In diplomacy, no one ever says whats really on their minds.
You might want to go back and play that whole lost Dominion Fleet Arc....They explicitly say theyve been watching us. Theyre well aware of our situation in that instance and its not beyond belief that they know our current situation. Again, not a far fetch they know what we know of the Iconians. And I seriously doubt that the old 'Theyre coming for you next' tactic wasnt used by Sela the first chance she got.
I understand Sphere of Influence just fine.
The Iconians have both the power and resources to bring down the Dominion. They simply (and with good reason) do not want to get bogged down in a two-front war with a fresh power fielding fanatical troops, top notch technology (even if it's inferior to that of the Iconians), and plenty of experience at warfare against technological powerhouses.
Thus, the logical strategy of taking the Alpha/Beta Quadrants before moving on to the Gamma Quadrant.
But I do wonder if their little pet project getting foiled in the Delta Quadrant screwed up their timetable. The Vaadwaur were supposed to keep the Delta powers tied up. But our heroes screwed that up big time.
That said, the Dewa III days could be where the Demons of Air and Darkness reputation came about, and over time their past nature was forgotten.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Sadly true, as I imagine their bitterness just got worse over the years.
It was Cardassians and Romulans that launched the attack on the Founder homeworld. Sure, that was a bit of a "badass boast" to intimidate Garak, and the Dominion "arranged" themselves with the Cardassians for a while (including holding a few of the alleged dead Cardassians as prisoner). But giving the boast it is not very surprising that the last days the femae changling was determined to eradicate Cardassia to punish them for their failurse and betrayal. She was basically making good on an old threat. And the Romulans were probably awaiting the same fate.
The Dominion just is very... efficient in its dealings with other species. They will seek discord and will attempt to trick their enemies into doing their dirty work, using smokes and mirrors to ensure their enemy is never prepared. Just think of how the Dominion basically faked a big invasion force coming towards DS9 just so that the Federation and Klingon fleets that would assemble to fight them would be caught in the supernova caused by the Changling that replaced Bashir. A pretty devious plan.
Of course, I guess one could argue that the disease created by Section 31 was even nastier to them then the Cardassian and Romulan attack - that one was carefully choreographed to be a trap for their forces. But the disease? They didn't anticipate it, and it would have worked. It was an act of compassion that saved them.
But it's not really a reason to listen to anyone in the Alpha or Beta Quadrant. Neelix would have a better shot at it.
My character Tsin'xing
I havent received any Iconian Rep Messages. But Im not shocked at all that she would say something idiotic like that in her own arrogance. And Dear Lord MAN, have you ever watched DS9? The Romulan Star Empire isnt exactly in the Dominions good graces either. They did break a Non-Aggression Pact with the Dominion. The Federation and Klingons, unlike the Romulans never betrayed the Dominion. They were aggressive with each other from the start. So does it make any sense that the RSE would have the Dominions ear over the Feds or Klingons? Could it be that Sela is just trying a little hard to sell her worth to the PC? And look, youre buying it hook line and sinker....
Just like George Lucas has entire planets with the same climate, Star Trek has entire species with all the same social traits. Starfleet has only one academy in all the known galaxy on Earth in one city San Francisco. The US is only one country, imagine if all the recruits had to show up at Fort Bragg. Yes the game is flawed because the show was flawed, nothing is perfect in a fictional universe.
You have multiple writers who wrote about things and didn't check what the prior one wrote about a given subject. This is why transporter technology went from turning matter to energy and back to matter, to disassembly of molecules, to magic of Scotty's new planet hopping technology in the more recent movies. It doesn't exist so there are no technical manuals to consult.
Do what I do, turn off you brain and enjoy the show!
Is there any evidence or at least indication that there has been content "lost on the cutting room floor"? While games will be under development until the last second before shipping, and often enough even beyond, stuff like an episode takes a lot of time to develop. And I would guess that bringing in specific voice actors (as opposed to "get somebody to voice that random Ferengi we've never met before and will never meet again") won't shorten the time.
(As to the main topic: I certainly do not read that message from the Iconian terminal as "We will lose against the dominion" but as "Caution, they may be more dangerous". Especially considering the very small number of real Iconians, where every loss is major. But, as has been stated, even if they were sure the Dominion would eventually beat them - the war has started and just ending it with an "oh, we're losing, so let's call it a draw" is not a very common occurence. So probably at least, as has been stated, Earth will fall, and there is a great chance that also Qo'nos and New Rom will become uninhabitable. The state of the various other planets is unknown, but since the fall of a major one, like Vulcan, Breen or Gorn, would probably have been mentioned, we can say they are at least still there. Still, imagine a war the US would lead against evil-of-the-day. New York, Chicago, Los Angeles are being bombarded with nukes. But China just joined and will send a platoon or two and then take on the enemy later after the US lies in ruins. All major cities will be uninhabitable, but we can set up shop in Boise. Oh, there's another possibility, a long shot, but it will save all of them. Guess which option would be taken. Guess once more which option would be taken in a fictional setting which loves against-all-odds scenarios).
About the last discussion why Romulans aren't a "real faction": waht does that have to do with this thread?
My character Tsin'xing