This would be the two-front war where the first front is down to the Alliance barely hanging onto its capitals, with the fleet almost completely destroyed, in disarray, and lacking in
Ah yes, you'll question my intelligence without possessing the basic logic skills to understand that if the Dominion has committed fleets, then it has committed everything and declared war because that's how the Dominion works. it doesn't deal in half-measures.
But please, by all means continue to demonstrate your ignorance of canon, basic military strategy, logic and common sense while insulting others. I do enjoy when people embarrass themselves in front of me.
I will when you keep bringing up things no one is debating to try to move goalposts.
No one is denying that The Dominion is fully committed.
All that is being done is pointing out THAT CHANGES NOTHING because The Dominion is still in the Gamma quad, and not in the Alpha/Beta qauds, thus meaning they are in no position to stop the fall of the alpha/Beta quad species.
And, if you had actually read the FULL text of the computers from Sphere of Influence, you would know that The Iconians also said they believed it possible to beat The Dominion after they(The Iconians) had the resources of the alpha and Beta quads at their disposal.
Your entire argument is based on this fantastical idea that just The Dominion saying "we are joining the war now!" is just going to cause all The Iconian ships to instantly blow up.
No, my entire argument is that the Dominion joining the war puts the Iconians in an unwinnable position.
You and others seem to have little understanding of the Sphere of Influence dialog. If they must wait to fully conquer the alpha and beta quadrants, which means the alliance, the Breen, the Tholians, the Cardassians and others - to say nothing of the fact that they now have the delta quadrant coalition to deal with which they didn't expect - then they don't have the ability to subjugate the Dominion while still fighting a war with the other powers.
One task force made it to Earth, but logically, given how we've seen the Dominion behave time and again, more would be on the way. Given how easily the alliance tends to hijack Iconian space gates, you might not even need the wormhole.
The Iconians didn't want to fight both groups at once - considering the Alliance fleet is basically gone, with all three capitals under attack, few safe ports for the Alliance fleet, and little morale in what defenses were remaining, I'd argue that they're in position to gather the resources to deal with the Dominion, and that the first front of the Iconian War had very nearly completely collapsed.
That idea is false because they specifically say in this episode that Qo'nos remains safely unconquered, and while New Romulus was attacked, it gets attacked every other Tuesday and is still under Romulan control.
I'm not sure where you get that the alliance fleet is "gone".
If your only evidence for this is them quoting the charge of the light brigade then that's really, really poor.
Granted, it may be another case of Cryptic's chronic inability to present the Iconians of a more serious threat than North Korea, but the fact is no part of the battle suggests we're losing other than ESD's inexplicable loss of power (not even the excuse of Undine infiltrators used this time).
"Everyone - form up and cover our six" - dialogue from the mission, spoken by Commander Jarok. Emphasis 'everyone'.
Again, open to interpretation - I doubt that those ships were literally all that was left, but seriously - look at the scene; there are Herald ships everywhere. https://youtube.com/watch?v=QMdCYycdNCI
And I don't see many alliance ships.
Not to mention the numerous references to how many ships/lives were lost in the failed fleet attack against the Andromedia sphere in 'Butterfly'.
If your love of the Dominion is blinding you to that, then I don't know what else to say.
It seems you are unfamiliar with the concept of hyperbole.
Also, do you honestly, seriously, truly, actually think 11 ships are all that's left and not just what Cryptic can manage to put in a cutscene without the engine breaking down and crying?
I'm through discussing this with you - you are wearing JHSS sized blinders, and you're not even reading my whole posts anymore.
I read everything you said. I am asking you if you seriously think 11 ships are all that's left in the alliance.
The final thing I will say though is that your entire argument regarding the Dominion appears to be based on the dialogue in Sphere of Influence. I would like to point out that said dialogue did NOT read how you think it did either, and would point out that the wording of that dialogue didn't explicitly say that the Dominion would win if the Iconians entered the Gamma Quadrant; only that they wanted to ensure a power base in the Alpha/Beta Quadrants (which they were on the verge of doing) before attacking the Dominion.
You apparently quote that without understanding the reason for them wanting the alpha and beta quadrants pacified.
If they only feel confident in attacking the Dominion with 3 quarters of the entire galaxy under their control then they are obviously in no position to combat the Dominion now, given they are still fighting in the alpha and beta quadrants and utterly failed to pacify the delta quadrant.
The Iconian computers say they couldn't fight The Dominion.
However, The Dominion didn't show up in Midnight, only a few ships from there, and absolutely nothing suggests it was the entire Dominion fleet, or even a substantial part of it.
Sigh. Again. Even one Dominion ship would mean that the Dominion has declared war, and if the Dominion has declared war then the Iconians have lost, they can't fight a war on so many fronts with an opponent as strong as them.
It doesn't matter if the Dominion declared war. Earth was nearly lost, and if Earth fell, that would cut Alpha and Beta Quadrant forces in half, and the Federation would be gone. The point of the time-travel was to preserve the Alliance powers. It wouldn't matter if the Dominion had "officially" joined the war, the Federation would have already been defeated.
a) I still see no guarantee of Earth falling, not so much that time travel genocide is the only option.
b) Vulcan. Tellar. Andoria. Alpha Centauri. Betazed. Bajor. Trillus. I am sick and tired of this silly trope that the Federation would instantly implode if Earth fell. Yes, it would inevitably fall without outside assistance. But this is the crucial factor here. Even the minute hope of getting Earth back would keep the Federation intact.
You're also forgetting the Iconian gateways. There is no transit time while they move to the next target; they move there instantly. Once Earth is done, they proceed to the other core worlds before the Dominion can gather their forces, get them through the wormhole, and get them across the intervening space. The Alpha and Beta Quadrant forces were using the last of their fleets to defend Earth. Once Earth was gone, the Alliance would quickly fall, and I don't think the Dominion have enough ships to block the sun from a Dyson sphere, which the Heralds do.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
The Iconian computers say they couldn't fight The Dominion.
However, The Dominion didn't show up in Midnight, only a few ships from there, and absolutely nothing suggests it was the entire Dominion fleet, or even a substantial part of it.
Sigh. Again. Even one Dominion ship would mean that the Dominion has declared war, and if the Dominion has declared war then the Iconians have lost, they can't fight a war on so many fronts with an opponent as strong as them.
It doesn't matter if the Dominion declared war. Earth was nearly lost, and if Earth fell, that would cut Alpha and Beta Quadrant forces in half, and the Federation would be gone. The point of the time-travel was to preserve the Alliance powers. It wouldn't matter if the Dominion had "officially" joined the war, the Federation would have already been defeated.
a) I still see no guarantee of Earth falling, not so much that time travel genocide is the only option.
b) Vulcan. Tellar. Andoria. Alpha Centauri. Betazed. Bajor. Trillus. I am sick and tired of this silly trope that the Federation would instantly implode if Earth fell. Yes, it would inevitably fall without outside assistance. But this is the crucial factor here. Even the minute hope of getting Earth back would keep the Federation intact.
You're also forgetting the Iconian gateways. There is no transit time while they move to the next target; they move there instantly. Once Earth is done, they proceed to the other core worlds before the Dominion can gather their forces, get them through the wormhole, and get them across the intervening space. The Alpha and Beta Quadrant forces were using the last of their fleets to defend Earth. Once Earth was gone, the Alliance would quickly fall, and I don't think the Dominion have enough ships to block the sun from a Dyson sphere, which the Heralds do.
If that were as easy as you say, the war should've been won by the Iconians six months ago. Clearly there are limits. Possibly due to incompetent Iconians continually losing control of said gates.
b) Vulcan. Tellar. Andoria. Alpha Centauri. Betazed. Bajor. Trillus. I am sick and tired of this silly trope that the Federation would instantly implode if Earth fell. Yes, it would inevitably fall without outside assistance. But this is the crucial factor here. Even the minute hope of getting Earth back would keep the Federation intact.
Its not a trope, its a fundamental basis of the series.
Humans are the key race in the federation, and have made up like 85% of Starfleet since it was created.
The entire point of Star Trek was that humans had the endless creativity and drive to bring everyone together, and establish something like the federation.
Humans have ALWAYS been the special ones, it was part of the entire core of ToS.
Do I now have to point out that not all humans live on Earth?
While it would be a huge blow, I doubt that a Terra Novan, Denevan or Alpha Centaurian puts Earth above their own world any more than an American puts London above their home city.
Indeed, It makes perfect sense. Even if i believe that a cardassian mini-faction is not so far away. Not at all. The Alliance has been weakened by the war, strengthening the bonds with old allies or recruiting new ones will be necessary in this post-war era. Hence the fact that the introduction of the Cardie faction will be perfectly adequate near season's 11 release (in may 2016 perhaps).
If we do get another faction, (even a mini one which to me is better than nothing though I know some vehemently disagree ), I would think it would be tied to an expansion, not a season. Further, as season 11 comes out late next month I think Cryptic would have let something slip by now if it included one. However, all is not dire . With enduring player interest in Cardassians of some sort, a Cardassian Revamp (Something that was long ago said would probably only happen once they were thinking about returning in some fashion to DS9 related stuff), a new Mirror Universe sub-plot centered in the Badlands and around DS9 for season 11, and the fact that there were two seasons between LOR and DR and about a year and a half real time, (Both of which criteria would be met again with the end of season 11 around early-mid 2016) I think a possible expansion could come mid to late next year. I know this is just pure speculation, two expansions don't really form a great basis for a larger pattern, and even an expansion does not necessarily equal a new faction but it seems at least somewhat plausible. So, fingers crossed.
As Zephram Cochrane once said, "That'll do, pig. That'll do." - April 1st 2015.
I think the biggest reason that the war would not have stopped simply because of Dominion involvement would be T'ket.
She showed nothing but utter contempt for the races of the galaxy. She will not stop until she is dead, or the galaxy is in flames. It was not possible to make her see sense, such was the extent of her rage. Granted, she would ultimately have lost that fight, but that would not have stopped her.
Real Temporal Operative: Purchased the Special Temporal Agent pack before it was even officially announced!
I think the biggest reason that the war would not have stopped simply because of Dominion involvement would be T'ket.
She showed nothing but utter contempt for the races of the galaxy. She will not stop until she is dead, or the galaxy is in flames. It was not possible to make her see sense, such was the extent of her rage. Granted, she would ultimately have lost that fight, but that would not have stopped her.
Perhaps, and I don't deny that the war would have been extremely bloody, but that's still preferable to time travel genocide.
Even Section 31 in the Dominion War didn't resort to something that awful and amoral.
The Iconian computers say they couldn't fight The Dominion.
However, The Dominion didn't show up in Midnight, only a few ships from there, and absolutely nothing suggests it was the entire Dominion fleet, or even a substantial part of it.
Sigh. Again. Even one Dominion ship would mean that the Dominion has declared war, and if the Dominion has declared war then the Iconians have lost, they can't fight a war on so many fronts with an opponent as strong as them.
There is a difference between winning a war and winning a battle. Even if Dominion would ultimately prevail - it doesn't mean that Earth, Q'onos, Cardassia or New Romulus would make it.
And it seemed from Sphere to Influence that destroying the Dominion was on their agenda - just not at the same time as engaging the Alpha Quadrant. But if they manage to take over Earth, the odds might have changed...
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
It wasn't the entire Dominion that came to Earth though. At best it was a small task force. Not enough to turn the tide on its own.
Sela declares that the Dominion are ready to "defend their stake in the galaxy" from the Iconians.
That "small task force" is likely what could be mobilised on the spot to get to the other side of the galaxy, but you do realise that by attacking the Iconians, the Dominion have effectively declared war on them.
The Dominion don't deal in faction politics. If the Jem'hadar fleets are there at all, it's because the Founders have told them to go. They are committed, and the Iconians would know that.
Not wise the thought, to trust in a single word out of Sela's mouth. I'd be willing to bet that she had this small task force "ace in the hole" all along, and chose to play it at just the moment when she thought it would gain her the most gratitude and trust. Self-aggrandizing, that woman is, and untrustworthy, as she has demonstrated throughout her history. She is everything that was wrong about the TNG-era RSE.
And aren't there still some True Way terrorists floating around somewhere? I know we still fight them in the Empire Defense mission (but we also still fight the Federation in another Empire Defense mission, so that's not evidence). Maybe those are the ones she brought with her to the Sol system.
Do I now have to point out that not all humans live on Earth?
While it would be a huge blow, I doubt that a Terra Novan, Denevan or Alpha Centaurian puts Earth above their own world any more than an American puts London above their home city.
No, because it doesn't matter.
90% of humans live on earth, destroying it basically destroys the humans race.
No, 90% of the human cast in the show lived on Earth. This is not the same as 90% of humans living on Earth which given it's been 3 centuries since humans set up colony worlds is a ludicrous estimate.
Also, there is no reason to say that Earth would be destroyed by a Herald victory in that battle. Was Qo'nos destroyed even when the Heralds had space superiority and were invading?
While it may be their intention, it may not be within their ability. Given that Earth doesn't seem to be suffering from the massive, massive amounts of space debris that has clogged it's orbit now in two seperate occassions (and a similar event was a plot point for massive destruction on the Turei homeworld) we can reasonably assume Earth has it's own defences, if not planetary shields and could hold out for a while.
While it may be their intention, it may not be within their ability. Given that Earth doesn't seem to be suffering from the massive, massive amounts of space debris that has clogged it's orbit now in two seperate occassions (and a similar event was a plot point for massive destruction on the Turei homeworld) we can reasonably assume Earth has it's own defences, if not planetary shields and could hold out for a while.
The Breen attack on earth during DS9, and even the Undine assault in STO, show that Earth has ZERO defenses.
Its always had zero defenses besides whatever ships are in the area.
The Breen attack was several decades ago at this point, the Undine assault did not affect Earth itself, and the shutdown of ESD was explained by Undine infiltrators.
Besides, use common sense. If Earth didn't have defences, then it would be screwed by the amount of ship parts that would be slamming into the surface through the battle. Again, this was a plot point in STO itself elsewhere when the Turei shield was sabotaged, so you can't claim this is irrelevant realism.
Besides, use common sense. If Earth didn't have defences, then it would be screwed by the amount of ship parts that would be slamming into the surface through the battle. Again, this was a plot point in STO itself elsewhere when the Turei shield was sabotaged, so you can't claim this is irrelevant realism.
While it may be their intention, it may not be within their ability. Given that Earth doesn't seem to be suffering from the massive, massive amounts of space debris that has clogged it's orbit now in two seperate occassions (and a similar event was a plot point for massive destruction on the Turei homeworld) we can reasonably assume Earth has it's own defences, if not planetary shields and could hold out for a while.
The Breen attack on earth during DS9, and even the Undine assault in STO, show that Earth has ZERO defenses.
Its always had zero defenses besides whatever ships are in the area.
Earth has ground defenses, the whole point of Homefront (DS9) was precisely based around Earth defenses being knocked down.
The Breen attack on Earth was in fact stopped by Earth's defenses not federation ships, the Breen lost most of their ships and they only destroyed the academy and part of San Francisco.
Sigh. Again. Even one Dominion ship would mean that the Dominion has declared war, and if the Dominion has declared war then the Iconians have lost, they can't fight a war on so many fronts with an opponent as strong as them.
Except, again, The Dominion wasn't there in entirety.
The Iconians would have lost against The Dominion, but since 99.99% of The Dominion is in the Gamma quad, it doesn't change the fate of the Alpha and Beta quad species.
The Dominion joining the war doesn't automatically mean all The Iconians are going to die, it just means they would lose eventually.
And given that The Iconians were already at Earth, that eventually would have been after the Federation, Klingon empire, and Romulan Republic were finished.
Every single one of you posts I have seen exhibits a complete lack of intelligent thought, and usually tends to ignore how basic things like time work, specifically in that things happen over time, and not instantly, simply to create a reason to complain about something that makes perfect sense normally.
but, if your a battle commander, and a race you know you cant defeat shows up, even in one ship, it should give you a moment of pause.. the heralds did not know weather there would be one ship, or a thousand.. the fact that the dominion openenly sent even one ship shows the heralds and iconians that they are entering the war.. more so, it would be in there best interest to leave and regroup until they know the extent of dominion involvement.
it was stated that they could not win if the big d got involved.. it was stated that they basically feared the dominion getting involved.. so to me, if the dominion gets involved in any way, that would be an oh TRIBBLE moment for the iconians.
as far as your high horse rant about no one understanding time or having intelligent thought (which basically showed me what type of person you are lol..) ummm. what most people are saying is that the smart move would be to retreat.. i dont know how many ships were sent... do you?? and if you dont know, how does the iconians know. for all you know the fastest dominion ships got there first, or there was a fleet from deeper in the gamma quadrant still on the way.
the intelligent way to think, would be if there was only twelve members of your race left (11 i guess after we killed one) would you take such a large gamble on their safety. its like a game of chess, you have stay alive as well as play offensively.
again, staying at earth was a tactical nightmare and error for the heralds once any number of dominion ships showed up. what if a half hour later a thousand dominion ships showed up.. well destroying earth no longer looks like it was worth it..
The Iconian computers say they couldn't fight The Dominion.
However, The Dominion didn't show up in Midnight, only a few ships from there, and absolutely nothing suggests it was the entire Dominion fleet, or even a substantial part of it.
I think the Iconians were more worried about the amount of resources and effort they would have to commit to a war with the Dominion rather then face the other species of the galaxy first. The resources and effort they could spread across the greater portion of the galaxy would probably be equal to or less than what theyd have to throw at the Dominion. And it would have more to do with the Dominions strangle hold on the Gamma Quadrant rather than their ability to ultimately defeat the Iconians. If the Iconians had committed to fighting the Dominion first they could of suffered enough casualties that when they were done they would have to recoup their losses before moving onto the greater galaxy rather then the other way around.
I feel like the Dominions entrance to the war was way too late and if it wasnt for the time travel shenanigans Sol would of been lost, Dominion Task Force entering the fight or not. A handful of ships would not have turned the tide. I can understand that the Dominion might view the war between the Alliance and the Iconians to be advantageous to them since its two of their enemies going to blows and doing serious damage to each other. I can also understand waiting it out as long as possible before getting involved because the Alliance would be severely depleted by the end of all of this. Giving the Dominion an advantage over the Alpha Powers. But waiting until Sol was on the edge of being lost means either the Dominion hasnt been paying attention or has suddenly lost any sense of strategy and tactics. Considering the Dominions ability to gather intelligence, its not beyond belief that whatever the Alliance knows about the Iconians the Dominion knows as well. So theyd be well aware of the Iconians plan to take the rest of the galaxy before turning their sights on the Dominion. And having an enemy coming down on them from all sides and from portals wherever they please, not even the Dominion can properly react and defend against that.
From my perspective, if Cryptic wanted to tell a better story. The involvement of the Dominion should of come much earlier. And the diplomatic attempts to get them involved should of been exhausted long before we ever turned to the Krenim and messing with time. Atleast with DS9, when Sisko committed to things that were not in the spirit of Trek/Starfleet/Federation he openly admitted and understood that the burden would be on his shoulders. We didnt even try and use the existence of the weapon as a means of forcing a peaceful end to the war. The Iconians couldnt get to it since it was sitting outside the timeline. So it wasnt as if revealing its existence would be detrimental to their ability to deploy it.
T'ket is and was a raving lunatic, who only cares about burning as many worlds as possible. A few Dominion ships showing up wouldn't stop, or even pause, her genocidal need to kill ANYTHING and everything she can. She doesn't work on hard logic like Vulcans, but on emotions, like every other sentient species.
Whats more, is that basically every race has long range sensors. The Iconians should be able to see if more Dominion ships are coming or not. They would have known more were not coming, or if they were, they weren't enough to beat the Iconian forces around earth, as is implied by the cutscene of the various ships trying to attack the Iconians in what is implied to be a suicidal move after you go through the time portal.
On top of that, all the Iconians except T'ket, and that other one, are in the dyson sphere near Iconia, one they can warp back over to the Andromida galaxy any time they want. So the other 9 Iconians are not in any danger whatsoever. So that isn't even a factor in their thinking.
Your rant fails to take into account even basic things like long range sensors,the location of the other Iconians, and their legendary mobility, and yet you claim its logical?
OFC, this always seems to be the normal intellectual level of people claiming stories don't make sense.
The Dominion DID come into play earlier. Did you skip over all those messages Sela sent you as part of the Iconian resistance reputation tiers?
Sela had been trying to get The Dominion to do SOMETHING since the end of "Uneasy Allies", they just didn't want to, and kept giving her the run around.
It wasn't until The Iconians sent heralds into the Gamma quad to hunt Sela down that The Dominion decided to respond, and that was likely only in response to The Iconians actually sending Heralds into their space, rather then caring if the Alpha/Beta quad powers survived.
The whole point of Sela's messages was that she was getting The Dominion because The Dominion wouldn't have talked to us, she even says so, and everyone in the Federation knows that. Us trying to make a deal with The Dominion would have been even more futile then trying to make a deal with The Tholians or Breen due to how much they hate us.
Complete nonsense and ignores the fact that we've had interactions with the Dominion earlier in the storyline during the Cardassian Arc.
While they might not have been receptive at first. Kind of hard to ignore the fact that Vanderos was under surveillance by the Iconians. Not like the Dominion would suddenly decide to ignore developments in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants just when the Iconians show up. And its not like theyd assume the Iconians would be happy with JUST the Alpha, Beta and Delta Quadrants.
It wasn't the entire Dominion that came to Earth though. At best it was a small task force. Not enough to turn the tide on its own.
The real question is... the CUS Damar. When did the Cardassians decide to send a ship? They are not part of the Dominion, and as far as I know had no real presence in the war. The only reason I can see for a Cardassian ship to warp in with the Dominion would be a nod to the fact that Cardassia was a member of the Dominion durring the Dominion war.
Yeah, but I think they were going to go for the classic "last minute reinforcements saves the day" feel.
But with the Cardassian ship, while it's partial nod to the Dominion, I think it was more of them having a presence to help the Federation, whom your character helped.
Jupiter Station resembles 6 Ambassador class saucers stacked on top of each other. The Enterprise C was Ambassador class, and was a ship Sela's mother served on.
THIS MAKES T'KET MAD. T'KET SMASH JUPITER STATION.
Best I can figure.
They arn't Ambassadors, Jupiter Station was built during Archer's time. And if I remember correctly, Doug Drexler once commented on the Jupiter Station model wasn' from any known Federation ship.
Okay... now,
Yes a Few Dominion Ships came to help but A) It was too late to save Earth Continuing on the path of Conventional Warfare would have still meant the complete destruction of Earth, Thousands of Ships and the death of Billions of Live until the Iconians would have been beat.
So the Original Plan still IS the most viable option to end it quickly and without anymore undue bloodshed.
In the novel continutation, Odo is running the Dominion...that deserves a bit of attention and maybe Lars could appropriate the True Way as his own Dominion and go head to head in a war against Odo and the original!
I don't remember from the first time I playes this game getting the oppurtunity to kill the Vorta. How does this happen?
We don't kill him, so I assume he used his termination implant when he realized he was most likely replaced after 6 years (so he was, in his mind, dead to the Founders).
Lets do something completely crazy, lets pretend for a moment that everything that was said in the mission about Earth being effectively the Alliance's last stand against the Iconians and losing Earth meant losing the war.
The initial Dominion force was 5 ships, without the time travel shenanigans Earth was lost, if the Dominion ships survive they report back that Earth is lost, the Dominion consolidates it's forces into defending it's territory in the gamma quadrant and doesn't help the Alpha/Beta Quadrants survive. We lose.
If they didn't survive, they assume an attack is coming, and do the same. We lose.
If the Dominion had joined earlier in the war, preferably before Butterfly, we would probably have stood a chance, the help we got was too little too late however, without the time travel shenanigans we'd lost the war for good and surrender was our best option for survival.
Even if they had helped at the start of the war though, the first signs we could lose and the Dominion would have gone back to defend their own territory.
The Dominion is not nice, they don't like the Alpha and Beta Quadrant powers, and want to be left alone, we wouldn't have gotten their help and in the unlikely (impossible) event that we got it (I'm convinced that they only sent those 5 ships to get rid of Sela), they'd have pulled out the moment we became a liability to them.
I honestly don't think we should only take the ships visible on screen into account, STOs engine is rather limited after all, that's why even epic battles are more like small skirmishes at the point where the player happens to be.
That being said, it still didn't seem to be enough to turn the tide and personally I wouldn't have aborted the entire mission just because Sela of all people tells us our formerly biggest enemy is suddenly here to help us and totally won't take over our part of the galaxy afterwards, if they even succeed. I mean, all we have is a vague notion that the Iconians did not want to fight on two fronts, that's not afraid of the dominion, that's common sense and merely attacking the weakest link first.
Also, we should consider that while we can recognize classic "there's gonna be a twist about the villain" tropes, the alliance expected to find the "demons of air and darkness" in the past. Vile conquerors and tyrants who rule over the universe with Iron fists, suppressing every form of creativity and cultural development but their own and eradicating species unsuited to serve them, this is more like going back to eradicate the borg.
On that note btw.: The Picard knew!
It should teach us not to question the Picards wisdom.
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I honestly don't think we should only take the ships visible on screen into account, STOs engine is rather limited after all, that's why even epic battles are more like small skirmishes at the point where the player happens to be.
That being said, it still didn't seem to be enough to turn the tide and personally I wouldn't have aborted the entire mission just because Sela of all people tells us our formerly biggest enemy is suddenly here to help us and totally won't take over our part of the galaxy afterwards, if they even succeed. I mean, all we have is a vague notion that the Iconians did not want to fight on two fronts, that's not afraid of the dominion, that's common sense and merely attacking the weakest link first.
Also, we should consider that while we can recognize classic "there's gonna be a twist about the villain" tropes, the alliance expected to find the "demons of air and darkness" in the past. Vile conquerors and tyrants who rule over the universe with Iron fists, suppressing every form of creativity and cultural development but their own and eradicating species unsuited to serve them, this is more like going back to eradicate the borg.
On that note btw.: The Picard knew!
It should teach us not to question the Picards wisdom.
It's not the first time the victors in a war vilified the losers, and it won't be the last. After all which is easier to stomach telling your kids, "The Iconians were monsters we lived in fear of and had to destroy," or "They wouldn't share their toys so we smashed them up and tried to find out how to make them from the wreckage."?
Comments
I read everything you said. I am asking you if you seriously think 11 ships are all that's left in the alliance.
You apparently quote that without understanding the reason for them wanting the alpha and beta quadrants pacified.
If they only feel confident in attacking the Dominion with 3 quarters of the entire galaxy under their control then they are obviously in no position to combat the Dominion now, given they are still fighting in the alpha and beta quadrants and utterly failed to pacify the delta quadrant.
You're also forgetting the Iconian gateways. There is no transit time while they move to the next target; they move there instantly. Once Earth is done, they proceed to the other core worlds before the Dominion can gather their forces, get them through the wormhole, and get them across the intervening space. The Alpha and Beta Quadrant forces were using the last of their fleets to defend Earth. Once Earth was gone, the Alliance would quickly fall, and I don't think the Dominion have enough ships to block the sun from a Dyson sphere, which the Heralds do.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
If that were as easy as you say, the war should've been won by the Iconians six months ago. Clearly there are limits. Possibly due to incompetent Iconians continually losing control of said gates.
Do I now have to point out that not all humans live on Earth?
While it would be a huge blow, I doubt that a Terra Novan, Denevan or Alpha Centaurian puts Earth above their own world any more than an American puts London above their home city.
If we do get another faction, (even a mini one which to me is better than nothing though I know some vehemently disagree
She showed nothing but utter contempt for the races of the galaxy. She will not stop until she is dead, or the galaxy is in flames. It was not possible to make her see sense, such was the extent of her rage. Granted, she would ultimately have lost that fight, but that would not have stopped her.
Perhaps, and I don't deny that the war would have been extremely bloody, but that's still preferable to time travel genocide.
Even Section 31 in the Dominion War didn't resort to something that awful and amoral.
And it seemed from Sphere to Influence that destroying the Dominion was on their agenda - just not at the same time as engaging the Alpha Quadrant. But if they manage to take over Earth, the odds might have changed...
Not wise the thought, to trust in a single word out of Sela's mouth. I'd be willing to bet that she had this small task force "ace in the hole" all along, and chose to play it at just the moment when she thought it would gain her the most gratitude and trust. Self-aggrandizing, that woman is, and untrustworthy, as she has demonstrated throughout her history. She is everything that was wrong about the TNG-era RSE.
And aren't there still some True Way terrorists floating around somewhere? I know we still fight them in the Empire Defense mission (but we also still fight the Federation in another Empire Defense mission, so that's not evidence). Maybe those are the ones she brought with her to the Sol system.
No, 90% of the human cast in the show lived on Earth. This is not the same as 90% of humans living on Earth which given it's been 3 centuries since humans set up colony worlds is a ludicrous estimate.
Also, there is no reason to say that Earth would be destroyed by a Herald victory in that battle. Was Qo'nos destroyed even when the Heralds had space superiority and were invading?
While it may be their intention, it may not be within their ability. Given that Earth doesn't seem to be suffering from the massive, massive amounts of space debris that has clogged it's orbit now in two seperate occassions (and a similar event was a plot point for massive destruction on the Turei homeworld) we can reasonably assume Earth has it's own defences, if not planetary shields and could hold out for a while.
The Breen attack was several decades ago at this point, the Undine assault did not affect Earth itself, and the shutdown of ESD was explained by Undine infiltrators.
Besides, use common sense. If Earth didn't have defences, then it would be screwed by the amount of ship parts that would be slamming into the surface through the battle. Again, this was a plot point in STO itself elsewhere when the Turei shield was sabotaged, so you can't claim this is irrelevant realism.
Ouch...
Earth has ground defenses, the whole point of Homefront (DS9) was precisely based around Earth defenses being knocked down.
The Breen attack on Earth was in fact stopped by Earth's defenses not federation ships, the Breen lost most of their ships and they only destroyed the academy and part of San Francisco.
but, if your a battle commander, and a race you know you cant defeat shows up, even in one ship, it should give you a moment of pause.. the heralds did not know weather there would be one ship, or a thousand.. the fact that the dominion openenly sent even one ship shows the heralds and iconians that they are entering the war.. more so, it would be in there best interest to leave and regroup until they know the extent of dominion involvement.
it was stated that they could not win if the big d got involved.. it was stated that they basically feared the dominion getting involved.. so to me, if the dominion gets involved in any way, that would be an oh TRIBBLE moment for the iconians.
as far as your high horse rant about no one understanding time or having intelligent thought (which basically showed me what type of person you are lol..) ummm. what most people are saying is that the smart move would be to retreat.. i dont know how many ships were sent... do you?? and if you dont know, how does the iconians know. for all you know the fastest dominion ships got there first, or there was a fleet from deeper in the gamma quadrant still on the way.
the intelligent way to think, would be if there was only twelve members of your race left (11 i guess after we killed one) would you take such a large gamble on their safety. its like a game of chess, you have stay alive as well as play offensively.
again, staying at earth was a tactical nightmare and error for the heralds once any number of dominion ships showed up. what if a half hour later a thousand dominion ships showed up.. well destroying earth no longer looks like it was worth it..
I think the Iconians were more worried about the amount of resources and effort they would have to commit to a war with the Dominion rather then face the other species of the galaxy first. The resources and effort they could spread across the greater portion of the galaxy would probably be equal to or less than what theyd have to throw at the Dominion. And it would have more to do with the Dominions strangle hold on the Gamma Quadrant rather than their ability to ultimately defeat the Iconians. If the Iconians had committed to fighting the Dominion first they could of suffered enough casualties that when they were done they would have to recoup their losses before moving onto the greater galaxy rather then the other way around.
I feel like the Dominions entrance to the war was way too late and if it wasnt for the time travel shenanigans Sol would of been lost, Dominion Task Force entering the fight or not. A handful of ships would not have turned the tide. I can understand that the Dominion might view the war between the Alliance and the Iconians to be advantageous to them since its two of their enemies going to blows and doing serious damage to each other. I can also understand waiting it out as long as possible before getting involved because the Alliance would be severely depleted by the end of all of this. Giving the Dominion an advantage over the Alpha Powers. But waiting until Sol was on the edge of being lost means either the Dominion hasnt been paying attention or has suddenly lost any sense of strategy and tactics. Considering the Dominions ability to gather intelligence, its not beyond belief that whatever the Alliance knows about the Iconians the Dominion knows as well. So theyd be well aware of the Iconians plan to take the rest of the galaxy before turning their sights on the Dominion. And having an enemy coming down on them from all sides and from portals wherever they please, not even the Dominion can properly react and defend against that.
From my perspective, if Cryptic wanted to tell a better story. The involvement of the Dominion should of come much earlier. And the diplomatic attempts to get them involved should of been exhausted long before we ever turned to the Krenim and messing with time. Atleast with DS9, when Sisko committed to things that were not in the spirit of Trek/Starfleet/Federation he openly admitted and understood that the burden would be on his shoulders. We didnt even try and use the existence of the weapon as a means of forcing a peaceful end to the war. The Iconians couldnt get to it since it was sitting outside the timeline. So it wasnt as if revealing its existence would be detrimental to their ability to deploy it.
Complete nonsense and ignores the fact that we've had interactions with the Dominion earlier in the storyline during the Cardassian Arc.
While they might not have been receptive at first. Kind of hard to ignore the fact that Vanderos was under surveillance by the Iconians. Not like the Dominion would suddenly decide to ignore developments in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants just when the Iconians show up. And its not like theyd assume the Iconians would be happy with JUST the Alpha, Beta and Delta Quadrants.
Yeah, but I think they were going to go for the classic "last minute reinforcements saves the day" feel.
But with the Cardassian ship, while it's partial nod to the Dominion, I think it was more of them having a presence to help the Federation, whom your character helped.
They arn't Ambassadors, Jupiter Station was built during Archer's time. And if I remember correctly, Doug Drexler once commented on the Jupiter Station model wasn' from any known Federation ship.
Yes a Few Dominion Ships came to help but A) It was too late to save Earth
So the Original Plan still IS the most viable option to end it quickly and without anymore undue bloodshed.
The initial Dominion force was 5 ships, without the time travel shenanigans Earth was lost, if the Dominion ships survive they report back that Earth is lost, the Dominion consolidates it's forces into defending it's territory in the gamma quadrant and doesn't help the Alpha/Beta Quadrants survive. We lose.
If they didn't survive, they assume an attack is coming, and do the same. We lose.
If the Dominion had joined earlier in the war, preferably before Butterfly, we would probably have stood a chance, the help we got was too little too late however, without the time travel shenanigans we'd lost the war for good and surrender was our best option for survival.
Even if they had helped at the start of the war though, the first signs we could lose and the Dominion would have gone back to defend their own territory.
The Dominion is not nice, they don't like the Alpha and Beta Quadrant powers, and want to be left alone, we wouldn't have gotten their help and in the unlikely (impossible) event that we got it (I'm convinced that they only sent those 5 ships to get rid of Sela), they'd have pulled out the moment we became a liability to them.
That being said, it still didn't seem to be enough to turn the tide and personally I wouldn't have aborted the entire mission just because Sela of all people tells us our formerly biggest enemy is suddenly here to help us and totally won't take over our part of the galaxy afterwards, if they even succeed. I mean, all we have is a vague notion that the Iconians did not want to fight on two fronts, that's not afraid of the dominion, that's common sense and merely attacking the weakest link first.
Also, we should consider that while we can recognize classic "there's gonna be a twist about the villain" tropes, the alliance expected to find the "demons of air and darkness" in the past. Vile conquerors and tyrants who rule over the universe with Iron fists, suppressing every form of creativity and cultural development but their own and eradicating species unsuited to serve them, this is more like going back to eradicate the borg.
On that note btw.: The Picard knew!
It should teach us not to question the Picards wisdom.
Join Starfleet,
Boldly go where no man has gone before,
Meet interesting new species, and Kill them!
It's not the first time the victors in a war vilified the losers, and it won't be the last. After all which is easier to stomach telling your kids, "The Iconians were monsters we lived in fear of and had to destroy," or "They wouldn't share their toys so we smashed them up and tried to find out how to make them from the wreckage."?