test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
Cryptic, please remember your own writing. (spoilars)
lizwei
Member Posts: 936 Arc User
Let's rewind back to Sphere of Influence, and the Iconian analysis of the various factions.
Specifically, the Dominion. And how they said outright that they were in no position to fight the Dominion as well as the rest of the galaxy, and would therefore leave the Dominion alone for only with the rest of the galaxy pacified could they combat it's military might.
Fast forward to.. now. The Dominion intervenes in the Iconian I Can't Believe It's Not War!
Combined with the alliance and delta coalition, this means the entire galaxy is united against the Iconians. The vast fleets of the Dominion are ready to fight, and the Iconians have basically lost at that moment. They cannot fight the Dominion AND everyone else. They said so. They're done. It's over....
..... and Kagran still wants to continue his foolish plan to alter time and commit genocide (Kagran's later development is besides the point at this stage) and everybody else goes along with it. Including the Dominion.
.... WHAT?
Nothing demonstrates more how this arc has been truncated and aborted out of a sense of embarassment for how terrible it was more than this. Dominion intervention was clearly being built up, but due to this all being compressed into one episode we have the Dominion riding in to save the day.. and Kagran still acting like the situation is hopeless and only timeline shenanigans will work, with no developments in between.
Specifically, the Dominion. And how they said outright that they were in no position to fight the Dominion as well as the rest of the galaxy, and would therefore leave the Dominion alone for only with the rest of the galaxy pacified could they combat it's military might.
Fast forward to.. now. The Dominion intervenes in the Iconian I Can't Believe It's Not War!
Combined with the alliance and delta coalition, this means the entire galaxy is united against the Iconians. The vast fleets of the Dominion are ready to fight, and the Iconians have basically lost at that moment. They cannot fight the Dominion AND everyone else. They said so. They're done. It's over....
..... and Kagran still wants to continue his foolish plan to alter time and commit genocide (Kagran's later development is besides the point at this stage) and everybody else goes along with it. Including the Dominion.
.... WHAT?
Nothing demonstrates more how this arc has been truncated and aborted out of a sense of embarassment for how terrible it was more than this. Dominion intervention was clearly being built up, but due to this all being compressed into one episode we have the Dominion riding in to save the day.. and Kagran still acting like the situation is hopeless and only timeline shenanigans will work, with no developments in between.
0
Comments
The real question is... the CUS Damar. When did the Cardassians decide to send a ship? They are not part of the Dominion, and as far as I know had no real presence in the war. The only reason I can see for a Cardassian ship to warp in with the Dominion would be a nod to the fact that Cardassia was a member of the Dominion durring the Dominion war.
I think it's pretty clear there was meant to be an episode dealing with them that's now on the cutting room floor.
I also don't like the implication that it was relatively easy for Sela to convince them, and that the alliance just didn't feel like asking them.
Which means that the alliance would sooner ally with the highly dodgy Krenim, help them violate the prime directive and commit genocide before going to the Dominion cap in hand to ask for help.
That is all kinds of wrong.
There's a Cardassian officer in the briefing room during the cutscene of one of the Iconian war arc featured episodes (don't remember which one). It clearly indicates that the cardassian fleet has been associated to the war effort from beginning to the end, even if we don't always see cardassian ships in the Alliance fleet.
Sela declares that the Dominion are ready to "defend their stake in the galaxy" from the Iconians.
That "small task force" is likely what could be mobilised on the spot to get to the other side of the galaxy, but you do realise that by attacking the Iconians, the Dominion have effectively declared war on them.
The Dominion don't deal in faction politics. If the Jem'hadar fleets are there at all, it's because the Founders have told them to go. They are committed, and the Iconians would know that.
While you may be right, there's still the fact the Alpha and Beta Quadrants would either be conquered or so mangled it wouldn't matter by the time the Dominion Fleet pushed back the Iconians. Sol System was a breaking point for the Alliance.
And while we're on the subject... poor ESD never gets a break. Second time that station got wrecked. First the Undine, now the Iconians.
Again. That's not what Sphere of Influence says. So the narrative does not agree with you.
Not even this episode says that. With Dominion help, the fleets were rallying against the Heralds. Nothing even implies that the battle was lost, but we have this pig headed focus on time travel shenanigans anyway.
Sigh. Again. Even one Dominion ship would mean that the Dominion has declared war, and if the Dominion has declared war then the Iconians have lost, they can't fight a war on so many fronts with an opponent as strong as them.
Hence why I say that Cryptic don't remember their own writing.
And I would posit that even if the battle for Sol was lost (no guarantee of that mind you), the Iconians would still lose the war and that, ultimately, means that time travel - especially time travel to commit genocide - should be out of the question.
Ah yes, you'll question my intelligence without possessing the basic logic skills to understand that if the Dominion has committed fleets, then it has committed everything and declared war because that's how the Dominion works. it doesn't deal in half-measures.
But please, by all means continue to demonstrate your ignorance of canon, basic military strategy, logic and common sense while insulting others. I do enjoy when people embarrass themselves in front of me.
Why not just fire that LAZOR at ESD or Earth... and what the heck were the Heralds doing at Jupiter?
Jupiter Station resembles 6 Ambassador class saucers stacked on top of each other.
The Enterprise C was Ambassador class, and was a ship Sela's mother served on.
THIS MAKES T'KET MAD. T'KET SMASH JUPITER STATION.
Best I can figure.
I think the Iconian arc should have been longer. It's a shame we missed out on some story.
The dialogue specifically implies that they don't have the resources to conquer the Dominion.
Earth falling would be a huge blow, sure. If the Dominion wasn't involved. But the variables have changed. The Federation would not fall overnight without Earth, and the other factions are still intact. To say nothing of the Caradassians being involved now too.
Quite simply, the Iconians are now in a position they cannot win. Lives would be lost, sure. But that's still better than messing with time as they've already been shown.
No, my entire argument is that the Dominion joining the war puts the Iconians in an unwinnable position.
You and others seem to have little understanding of the Sphere of Influence dialog. If they must wait to fully conquer the alpha and beta quadrants, which means the alliance, the Breen, the Tholians, the Cardassians and others - to say nothing of the fact that they now have the delta quadrant coalition to deal with which they didn't expect - then they don't have the ability to subjugate the Dominion while still fighting a war with the other powers.
One task force made it to Earth, but logically, given how we've seen the Dominion behave time and again, more would be on the way. Given how easily the alliance tends to hijack Iconian space gates, you might not even need the wormhole.
The Iconians didn't want to fight both groups at once - considering the Alliance fleet is basically gone, with all three capitals under attack, few safe ports for the Alliance fleet, and little morale in what defenses were remaining, I'd argue that they're in position to gather the resources to deal with the Dominion, and that the first front of the Iconian War had very nearly completely collapsed.
Member Access Denied Armada!
My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
That idea is false because they specifically say in this episode that Qo'nos remains safely unconquered, and while New Romulus was attacked, it gets attacked every other Tuesday and is still under Romulan control.
I'm not sure where you get that the alliance fleet is "gone".
If your only evidence for this is them quoting the charge of the light brigade then that's really, really poor.
Granted, it may be another case of Cryptic's chronic inability to present the Iconians of a more serious threat than North Korea, but the fact is no part of the battle suggests we're losing other than ESD's inexplicable loss of power (not even the excuse of Undine infiltrators used this time).
How is 'all three capitals under attack' false when Qo'nos is being attacked, even if it hasn't fallen yet?
Alliance fleet being gone comes from repeated statements throughout the Iconian War arc from both environmental dialog and boxes that large portions of the pre-war fleet continue to be lost in action, as well as the visuals of less and less ships being present for the missions; whatever's left is a shadow of what was around during Delta Rising.
Member Access Denied Armada!
My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
You um.. you do realise that STFs are not necesarilly current in the timeline, yes?
Or do you somehow think the Borg are still attacking?
It seems you are unfamiliar with the concept of hyperbole.
Also, do you honestly, seriously, truly, actually think 11 ships are all that's left and not just what Cryptic can manage to put in a cutscene without the engine breaking down and crying?
Indeed, It makes perfect sense. Even if i believe that a cardassian mini-faction is not so far away. Not at all. The Alliance has been weakened by the war, strengthening the bonds with old allies or recruiting new ones will be necessary in this post-war era. Hence the fact that the introduction of the Cardie faction will be perfectly adequate near season's 11 release (in may 2016 perhaps).
It doesn't matter if the Dominion declared war. Earth was nearly lost, and if Earth fell, that would cut Alpha and Beta Quadrant forces in half, and the Federation would be gone. The point of the time-travel was to preserve the Alliance powers. It wouldn't matter if the Dominion had "officially" joined the war, the Federation would have already been defeated.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
a) I still see no guarantee of Earth falling, not so much that time travel genocide is the only option.
b) Vulcan. Tellar. Andoria. Alpha Centauri. Betazed. Bajor. Trillus. I am sick and tired of this silly trope that the Federation would instantly implode if Earth fell. Yes, it would inevitably fall without outside assistance. But this is the crucial factor here. Even the minute hope of getting Earth back would keep the Federation intact.