Oh, for Elements' sake, people, I was joking! Stop correcting me already. Maybe it wasn't clear (mea culpa), but I really don't need 5 or 6 people telling me that
I get the feeling that most people don't even bother to read all the posts in a thread to check to see if anyone else brought up a point or answered a question. And I don't just mean here, with some misunderstanding what you meant. Time and again, thread after thread we have a perfectly good explanations or answers followed by ten copycats who, for some reason, felt the need to say the exact same thing. Not additional info or another take mind you, but the exact same thing. As such threads end up becoming unnecessairly long and then eventually off track. Oh well,thats just the STO forums for ya I guess.
As Zephram Cochrane once said, "That'll do, pig. That'll do." - April 1st 2015.
The Cardassian arc probably more so than any other arc ever in this game greatly suffers from terrible mission maps with endless enemy groups you slaughter without any bigger story advancement.
Revamping these missions requires basically completely redesigning the map and the flow. Which means you throw it out.
Sure, you could leave it in - but then you would do two things:
- Lock story content away for improvement/alteration/retconning behind a terrible mission.
- Have people leveling up and see all this ugliness -and potentially lose them over it.
A mission like Saturday's Child - yeah, I think that's probably not really necessary. Maybe the map was awful, but I don't know. It feels more like it was cut because it didn't have anything to do with the rest of the story of the game, but I think that's not really a good reason - having some "fillers" like that makes it feel Trek. That's probably a case where I would have done things differently
All due respect, by that logic they should've removed the Patrols when they redid the Klingon and Romulan Arcs. Because by your own definitions they were terrible mission maps with endless enemy groups.
But they shouldn't remove because they are "ugly". Cryptic can benefit by keeping them around as discoverable missions that players do by themselves. They save face by not removing content, just moved it around. And some of them act as side-stories. For instance, it's most likely Seads of Dissent is going to be deleted, but why delete it when it could be a side-story that elaborates on the cruelity of the True Way that adds to the lore of the game?
Saturday's Child may not fit in the grand scheme of things, but if you remember it was an omage to TOS: Friday's Child and elaborating the good of the STO-era Federation in a time of war and chaos.
All of these efforts are being wiped away and actually narrowing out view of STO, when the smart thing for Cryptic to do is open up the Lore. I honestly believe that this could actually be the start of lore if they ever expand STO into true exploraiton, where we begin telling OUR story, not the story Cryptic told us to go. Which is one of the core appeals of MMOs - telling our own story of our own character.
I don't remember ever hearing that kind of bragging, but if it was ever done, I guess it was misguided. I do remember them bragging about the quality of newer content, and I think that "brag" was justified - newer story content really looks more polished. Maybe it's buggy at release, but it looks and plays much better than many old missions. (And certainly better than anything from the Cardassian Struggle.)
Dstahl was the one who said that on occasion. This was before the Klingon Arc revamp. I still remember citing examples like the PvP Space Assault Maps that disappeared in the first month of STO.
But I won't disagree with the story needing more polishing, and with that I actually applaud their efforts. But as I said, I don't agree with them deleting content. The game needs to expand, not confine us within the limits of a storyline and queues.
But they shouldn't remove because they are "ugly". Cryptic can benefit by keeping them around as discoverable missions that players do by themselves. They save face by not removing content, just moved it around. And some of them act as side-stories. For instance, it's most likely Seads of Dissent is going to be deleted, but why delete it when it could be a side-story that elaborates on the cruelity of the True Way that adds to the lore of the game?
It's funny you should say that because just earlier I was thinking the exact same thing. Specifically, when a few people mentioned in another thread that even though it was a bit silly and was rather unconnected to any main arc, they liked the episode "The Tribble with Klingons." Not everyone likes it, but some of us do and while it probably should be removed from the "official arc" I thought, "Why can't they just let it remain as a sort of deluxe patrol mission" i.e., you could just fly up to the system at any point and a prompt would be there (Like a patrol or foundery mission) that let you do the mission if you felt like it. Further, as you said, they could do this with a number of the "outlier" stories that would otherwise just be deleted. I don't imagine this will ever happen, but it would be a great idea.
As Zephram Cochrane once said, "That'll do, pig. That'll do." - April 1st 2015.
ack... more Time Travel... I want Exploration... That is the Heart of Star Trek after all... ah well I can live with out it for a few more months....years...
It's funny you should say that because just earlier I was thinking the exact same thing. Specifically, when a few people mentioned in another thread that even though it was a bit silly and was rather unconnected to any main arc, they liked the episode "The Tribble with Klingons." Not everyone likes it, but some of us do and while it probably should be removed from the "official arc" I thought, "Why can't they just let it remain as a sort of deluxe patrol mission" i.e., you could just fly up to the system at any point and a prompt would be there (Like a patrol or foundery mission) that let you do the mission if you felt like it. Further, as you said, they could do this with a number of the "outlier" stories that would otherwise just be deleted. I don't imagine this will ever happen, but it would be a great idea.
Exactly!
I just find it ironic people complain about wanting more content, and yet perfectly okay in removing old content? What kind of logic is that? And on top of it, the more random content you discover actually makes you feel like you're playing a MMO where you're creating your own story, not following someones script of the "destined captain" that Cryptic's forcing you on.
And on top of it, the more random content you discover actually makes you feel like you're playing a MMO where you're creating your own story,..
And in a quasi way it could create the begginings of a form of "Exploration," a feature many people want. Perhaps not so much for old players who know about the missions and I certainly would want more "proper" exploration added someday too, but being able to "discover" random content would still be a step in the right direction and might encourage players to roam a bit instead of just transwarping from one episode to the next. Oh well, pipe dreams and all that.
As Zephram Cochrane once said, "That'll do, pig. That'll do." - April 1st 2015.
People play space games for shooting. Some trek fans who remember what Trek was originally about prefer exploration. For time travel, I think it's best left to Dr. Whoever decides to produce a Dr. Who game.
And on top of it, the more random content you discover actually makes you feel like you're playing a MMO where you're creating your own story,..
And in a quasi way it could create the begginings of a form of "Exploration," a feature many people want. Perhaps not so much for old players who know about the missions and I certainly would want more "proper" exploration added someday too, but being able to "discover" random content would still be a step in the right direction and might encourage players to roam a bit instead of just transwarping from one episode to the next. Oh well, pipe dreams and all that.
Almost sounds like you read my comments another thread.
But yes. People stumble on stories than being told "go here and play". And this is a fundamental of Exploration because you don't know what's ahead, you don't know what the story is about. All you know is there is a story here.
I just find it ironic people complain about wanting more content, and yet perfectly okay in removing old content? What kind of logic is that? And on top of it, the more random content you discover actually makes you feel like you're playing a MMO where you're creating your own story, not following someones script of the "destined captain" that Cryptic's forcing you on.
The operative word is new. The old content is just that - old. Whether it exists or not has nothing to do with new content. A mission revamp will make a mission "new" to some extent. Removing a mission does not make a new mission, but it also doesn't mean less new missions being made. It just means something you already know is no more.
All due respect, by that logic they should've removed the Patrols when they redid the Klingon and Romulan Arcs. Because by your own definitions they were terrible mission maps with endless enemy group
The patrols are not part of the mission arc and are easily avoided. And it seems you have not played through the Cardassian Struggle in a while, or not through those patrols. These Patrols are not "endless" enemy groups. They are usually about 5. And some patrols actually have good-looking space maps.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
The operative word is new. The old content is just that - old. Whether it exists or not has nothing to do with new content. A mission revamp will make a mission "new" to some extent. Removing a mission does not make a new mission, but it also doesn't mean less new missions being made. It just means something you already know is no more.
I just commented this similary to you on another thread just a minute ago.
Do you honestly want Cryptic to keep reinventing the wheel in remodeling missions that people will only play once? Or do you focus on completelly new content? How much of their resources over the years was wasted in revising than focusing on the future.
The patrols are not part of the mission arc and are easily avoided. And it seems you have not played through the Cardassian Struggle in a while, or not through those patrols. These Patrols are not "endless" enemy groups. They are usually about 5. And some patrols actually have good-looking space maps.
That's exactly the point, they're side missions that players discover on their own. Which these old missions could easily become than being thrown away. Because these missions weren't full of "endless" mobs like you stated, but in fact they were the same amount of NPC groups as these patrols.
So if these patrols are acceptable, then so should these missions. If they are off to the side, then if people don't like them, they simply don't play it. But I'll tell you this, people been complaining about hitting dead ends as they have to find XP spots til they unlocked the next mission, and what's more perfect than patrols and sidelines than waiting for their DOFF missions to complete?
Some trek fans who remember what Trek was originally about prefer exploration.
Some Trek fans who remember what Trek was originally about remember that exploration was only ever a handwave to get into the actual plot.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
The operative word is new. The old content is just that - old. Whether it exists or not has nothing to do with new content. A mission revamp will make a mission "new" to some extent. Removing a mission does not make a new mission, but it also doesn't mean less new missions being made. It just means something you already know is no more.
I just commented this similary to you on another thread just a minute ago.
Do you honestly want Cryptic to keep reinventing the wheel in remodeling missions that people will only play once? Or do you focus on completelly new content? How much of their resources over the years was wasted in revising than focusing on the future.
I was skeptical at first, but considering the revamps they made, yes, I think that it's worth it. They retcon enough stuff into something that just works better than it was before. Dramatically, logically, there are often improvements.
But then, I am the kind of person that wouldn't have a problem with a full Trek Reboot. (Which isn't to say I just would want that reboot to rehash everything from the old shows, but I'd like to "fix" all the inconsistencies and build a foundation that can work for a long time)
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
If time travel is going to be a key part of season 11 and some have speculated the female character in Butterfly that gets erased from the timeline becomes the start of the " sphere builders" from Enterprise, then does that mean I can dust of my NX Refit and take her out for a ride? I would LOVE to have a 4-3 NX with a few extra consoles and hull points! CBS has said HELL NO to a T6 Connie, but what about a T-6 NX Refit?
Im not super thrilled about another Rep system, mainly because ive only gotten lvl 5 iconian on one of my toons, but am not surprised at all. Here's hoping they add Iconian Marks as rewards for other missions.
On a different note,, here's also hoping they rework the older QUE missions to get people playing them again. Mindtrap comes to mind. There are too many damn " SPACE" ques,, need more ground ques. Also need some tweaks to ground combat to get the damned autotargeting thing straightened out.
BRING ON SEASON 11!!!!!!!!!!
*************************** Fleet Admiral In charge of Bacon Fighting 5th Attack Squadron The Devils Henchman
I don't want them to do the same thing to the Cardassian arc as they did to the Romulan arc. Cutting out so many episodes and reducing it to a fraction of what it one was. I still protest the removal of Saturday's Child!
Okay yes several of the Cardassian arc missions could to with being tweaked and reworked but I protest any mission content removal.
Perhaps Saturdays child and the other Romulan missions that were removed could be brought back when Exploration and Diplomacy becomes a bigger part of the story? Some of the Cardi missions are very dated and don't add anything to the overall story, however ANY removal of content is frowned upon, no matter how lousy it is. Those missions could be removed from " arc" and put into a kind of " misc" category. I thought Saturdays Child was a great mission because it continued a storyline created in TOS. Same with the mission with " The Guardian of forever". I'm interested to see how they end the Iconian Arc and start a new story with Season 11. With what little hints we have gotten so far I am cautiously optimistic.
*************************** Fleet Admiral In charge of Bacon Fighting 5th Attack Squadron The Devils Henchman
We do know that "The Long Night" and "Crack in the Mirror" will survive the revamp in some form, if only because of the Delta recruit stuff.
I think it will be something like
-Mission 1 = Badlands + Forging Bonds
-Mission 2 = The Long Night + The New Link
-Mission 3 = Tear of the Prophets + Crack in the Mirror
-Mission 4 = The Other side + Cage of Fire
With "Suspect", "War Games", "Shutdown", "Rapier", “The Tribble with Klingons”, and “Seeds of Dissent”, getting axed entirely.
This would be the best way to do the story revamp IMO.
Aside from Suspect being one of the best missions in the early game. Gah.
Also, the only one where they remember that Starfleet doesn't approve of Section 31.
Also, the only one where they remember that Starfleet doesn't approve of Section 31.
Ross seemed okay with them. Marcus got a starbase from somewhere.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Also, the only one where they remember that Starfleet doesn't approve of Section 31.
Ross seemed okay with them. Marcus got a starbase from somewhere.
Marcus was a senior Starfleet official and Kirk was able to come out and disavow them. Ross had to weigh his decision carefully and recognized it was a compromise.
I am not keen on Section 31 Agents running around at diplomatic summits announcing themselves as Section 31.
It's one thing to work with them. It's another thing to say, "Here's our representative from Section 31."
Officially, they are a criminal terrorist cell. FBI profilers will work with Hannibal Lecter in all the Hannibal tie-ins as well but working with him doesn't mean he's invited to sleep in the Lincoln bedroom and babysit the president's kids.
FBI profilers will work with Hannibal Lecter in all the Hannibal tie-ins as well but working with him doesn't mean he's invited to sleep in the Lincoln bedroom and babysit the president's kids.
but on the plus side, they'd learn the joys of chianti and fava beans (hopefully that's the right hannibal, because i actually have no idea)
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Officially they're a top secret Federation intelligence organisation built into the charter.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Mirror Reputation.. Does that mean we will get sets that is focused on Phaser damage now?
I am glad they remove/reamp most of the Cardassian front, because those missions are horrible. Never liked them.
I hope for some awesome back-in-time episodes, would be real fun.
Comments
I get the feeling that most people don't even bother to read all the posts in a thread to check to see if anyone else brought up a point or answered a question. And I don't just mean here, with some misunderstanding what you meant. Time and again, thread after thread we have a perfectly good explanations or answers followed by ten copycats who, for some reason, felt the need to say the exact same thing. Not additional info or another take mind you, but the exact same thing. As such threads end up becoming unnecessairly long and then eventually off track. Oh well,thats just the STO forums for ya I guess.
All due respect, by that logic they should've removed the Patrols when they redid the Klingon and Romulan Arcs. Because by your own definitions they were terrible mission maps with endless enemy groups.
But they shouldn't remove because they are "ugly". Cryptic can benefit by keeping them around as discoverable missions that players do by themselves. They save face by not removing content, just moved it around. And some of them act as side-stories. For instance, it's most likely Seads of Dissent is going to be deleted, but why delete it when it could be a side-story that elaborates on the cruelity of the True Way that adds to the lore of the game?
Saturday's Child may not fit in the grand scheme of things, but if you remember it was an omage to TOS: Friday's Child and elaborating the good of the STO-era Federation in a time of war and chaos.
All of these efforts are being wiped away and actually narrowing out view of STO, when the smart thing for Cryptic to do is open up the Lore. I honestly believe that this could actually be the start of lore if they ever expand STO into true exploraiton, where we begin telling OUR story, not the story Cryptic told us to go. Which is one of the core appeals of MMOs - telling our own story of our own character.
Dstahl was the one who said that on occasion. This was before the Klingon Arc revamp. I still remember citing examples like the PvP Space Assault Maps that disappeared in the first month of STO.
But I won't disagree with the story needing more polishing, and with that I actually applaud their efforts. But as I said, I don't agree with them deleting content. The game needs to expand, not confine us within the limits of a storyline and queues.
It's funny you should say that because just earlier I was thinking the exact same thing. Specifically, when a few people mentioned in another thread that even though it was a bit silly and was rather unconnected to any main arc, they liked the episode "The Tribble with Klingons." Not everyone likes it, but some of us do and while it probably should be removed from the "official arc" I thought, "Why can't they just let it remain as a sort of deluxe patrol mission" i.e., you could just fly up to the system at any point and a prompt would be there (Like a patrol or foundery mission) that let you do the mission if you felt like it. Further, as you said, they could do this with a number of the "outlier" stories that would otherwise just be deleted. I don't imagine this will ever happen, but it would be a great idea.
Exactly!
I just find it ironic people complain about wanting more content, and yet perfectly okay in removing old content? What kind of logic is that? And on top of it, the more random content you discover actually makes you feel like you're playing a MMO where you're creating your own story, not following someones script of the "destined captain" that Cryptic's forcing you on.
And in a quasi way it could create the begginings of a form of "Exploration," a feature many people want. Perhaps not so much for old players who know about the missions and I certainly would want more "proper" exploration added someday too, but being able to "discover" random content would still be a step in the right direction and might encourage players to roam a bit instead of just transwarping from one episode to the next. Oh well, pipe dreams and all that.
Almost sounds like you read my comments another thread.
But yes. People stumble on stories than being told "go here and play". And this is a fundamental of Exploration because you don't know what's ahead, you don't know what the story is about. All you know is there is a story here.
The patrols are not part of the mission arc and are easily avoided. And it seems you have not played through the Cardassian Struggle in a while, or not through those patrols. These Patrols are not "endless" enemy groups. They are usually about 5. And some patrols actually have good-looking space maps.
I just commented this similary to you on another thread just a minute ago.
Do you honestly want Cryptic to keep reinventing the wheel in remodeling missions that people will only play once? Or do you focus on completelly new content? How much of their resources over the years was wasted in revising than focusing on the future.
That's exactly the point, they're side missions that players discover on their own. Which these old missions could easily become than being thrown away. Because these missions weren't full of "endless" mobs like you stated, but in fact they were the same amount of NPC groups as these patrols.
So if these patrols are acceptable, then so should these missions. If they are off to the side, then if people don't like them, they simply don't play it. But I'll tell you this, people been complaining about hitting dead ends as they have to find XP spots til they unlocked the next mission, and what's more perfect than patrols and sidelines than waiting for their DOFF missions to complete?
Some Trek fans who remember what Trek was originally about remember that exploration was only ever a handwave to get into the actual plot.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Except, you know, anyone that PvPs.
Again.
But then, I am the kind of person that wouldn't have a problem with a full Trek Reboot. (Which isn't to say I just would want that reboot to rehash everything from the old shows, but I'd like to "fix" all the inconsistencies and build a foundation that can work for a long time)
Im not super thrilled about another Rep system, mainly because ive only gotten lvl 5 iconian on one of my toons, but am not surprised at all. Here's hoping they add Iconian Marks as rewards for other missions.
On a different note,, here's also hoping they rework the older QUE missions to get people playing them again. Mindtrap comes to mind. There are too many damn " SPACE" ques,, need more ground ques. Also need some tweaks to ground combat to get the damned autotargeting thing straightened out.
BRING ON SEASON 11!!!!!!!!!!
Fleet Admiral In charge of Bacon
Fighting 5th Attack Squadron
The Devils Henchman
I don't want them to do the same thing to the Cardassian arc as they did to the Romulan arc. Cutting out so many episodes and reducing it to a fraction of what it one was. I still protest the removal of Saturday's Child!
Okay yes several of the Cardassian arc missions could to with being tweaked and reworked but I protest any mission content removal.
Fleet Admiral In charge of Bacon
Fighting 5th Attack Squadron
The Devils Henchman
I'd use it gleefully then in order to repeatedly blow up all you cannon jockeys who won't stop crying about BFAW.
Aside from Suspect being one of the best missions in the early game. Gah.
Also, the only one where they remember that Starfleet doesn't approve of Section 31.
Ross seemed okay with them. Marcus got a starbase from somewhere.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Marcus was a senior Starfleet official and Kirk was able to come out and disavow them. Ross had to weigh his decision carefully and recognized it was a compromise.
I am not keen on Section 31 Agents running around at diplomatic summits announcing themselves as Section 31.
It's one thing to work with them. It's another thing to say, "Here's our representative from Section 31."
Officially, they are a criminal terrorist cell. FBI profilers will work with Hannibal Lecter in all the Hannibal tie-ins as well but working with him doesn't mean he's invited to sleep in the Lincoln bedroom and babysit the president's kids.
Helpful Tools: Dictionary.com - Logical fallacies - Random generator - Word generator - Color tool - Extra Credits - List of common English language errors - New T6 Big booty tutorial
but on the plus side, they'd learn the joys of chianti and fava beans (hopefully that's the right hannibal, because i actually have no idea)
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Officially they're a top secret Federation intelligence organisation built into the charter.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
I am glad they remove/reamp most of the Cardassian front, because those missions are horrible. Never liked them.
I hope for some awesome back-in-time episodes, would be real fun.
Highly likely, yes. Though begs the question if it will be good enough to offset AP as the favorite energy type. Or make it as effective.