I think it might be presumptuous to call those that prefer 2 episodes of TOS "the majority". And like I said, I don't see there being much issue between the two, given what we saw in TNG/DS9 I think both captains from TOS would be able to function quite well in the TNG+ RSE, tho admittedly the war weary one would likely find himself on a quiet posting in the backwater of nowhere.
As for your there's the rub in and of itself. They aren't villains, they're TRIBBLE by human standards but not villains. One man's garbage is another man's treasure/art, this also applies to cultures, and is where a lot of the problems arise imo. Different morality/culture/lines of thinking are not wrong... judging them by your standards is. They don't have to be like you and the more "alien" they are, the less likely they will. I doubt anyone here wants to really play the moustache twirling fools Cryptic turned everything about RSE Leadership into(except maybe as a 1 off lark) but the RSE wasn't villains. Antagonistic, and confrontational sure, but even Tomalak worked with Picard when there was need. Just because someone is an TRIBBLE.hole doesn't automagically make them a villain.
To your C) well... Welcome to humanity... it doesn't matter what you like... someone will defecate on it cause they can. Weather they have an opinion on it or not.
Yeah, which RSE? I would prefer TOS-style RSE, and I despise TNG-style RSE as a perversion of the original into something ... deficient. That said, if I had the option to choose between TOS-style RSE, TNG-style RSE, and New Romulan Republic, I would probably have half of my Romulan characters in the TOS-style RSE and the other half in the New Romulan Republic.
But the idea that Cryptic/PWE would grant an RSE faction (of any style) is highly improbable, if not outright impossible. We don't have the numbers (and the decision to do the Romulan faction as they did, with forced alliances, incomplete development, and even as a Republic instead of an Empire, may very well have something to do with lack of numbers; frankly, I can't see why anyone would make a Fed or Klingon character as their first choice if Romulans are available as a full faction -- secondary and/or tertiary characters, sure, but I've dreamed of being the Romulan commander on TEI -- and marrying Spock -- since I was like ... 4 years old, for oh so many reasons).
what a coincidence I've dreamed of being Mr Spock and marrying the Romulans commander as long a I can remember. Together we can usher in a new age an age of Vulcan Romulan Unification. lol maybe his time with the commander was why Spock cared so much about unification.
I think it might be presumptuous to call those that prefer 2 episodes of TOS "the majority". And like I said, I don't see there being much issue between the two, given what we saw in TNG/DS9 I think both captains from TOS would be able to function quite well in the TNG+ RSE, tho admittedly the war weary one would likely find himself on a quiet posting in the backwater of nowhere.
As for your there's the rub in and of itself. They aren't villains, they're TRIBBLE by human standards but not villains. One man's garbage is another man's treasure/art, this also applies to cultures, and is where a lot of the problems arise imo. Different morality/culture/lines of thinking are not wrong... judging them by your standards is. They don't have to be like you and the more "alien" they are, the less likely they will. I doubt anyone here wants to really play the moustache twirling fools Cryptic turned everything about RSE Leadership into(except maybe as a 1 off lark) but the RSE wasn't villains. Antagonistic, and confrontational sure, but even Tomalak worked with Picard when there was need. Just because someone is an TRIBBLE.hole doesn't automagically make them a villain.
To your C) well... Welcome to humanity... it doesn't matter what you like... someone will defecate on it cause they can. Weather they have an opinion on it or not.
I didn't say that those who prefer TOS were THE majority, but part of one. One that does not want Romulans to be a villain vacation. And make no mistake, in TNG they were meant to be villains, the competent villains who offset the lack of Klingon villainy. I for one both prefer TOS, and think its great that my favorite species gets a chance to be the heroes, and doesn't have to play third fiddle in the good guy alliance, instead being the ego, reconciling the Federation (Superego) and Klingons (Id) in the Freudian trio that is the Alliance.
I'm just going to address a few points here, because when I go line by line, I get the "tl;dr" nonsense (in spite of the fact that if I don't do that, I get accused of being unable to counter your nonsense), and because I will be hopping in the shower momentarily.
I'm not sure where the 'all or nothing' fallacy thing is coming from (besides your usual affection for accusing anything you don't agree with of being a fallacy)
Well, gee, Beaver, I think maybe it's because you can't seem to wrap your head around the idea that my acceptance of some soft canon does not necessitate my acceptance of all soft canon.
Again, the same interview with Diane Duane which you are supposedly so familiar with that you knew immediately that I was twisting and distorting her words.
Alright, I found a post by Ms Duane from 2001 in which she wrote:
Re: the theory that the Rihannsu novels are "non canon" and in a parallel
universe: Guess what? they _are!_ (Read the front pages of the reissued
Rihannsu novels.)
Do I have a problem with this?
Of course not. They're _fiction._ I am a fiction writer, last I looked. Are
you suggesting that some kinds of fiction are more fictional than others? That
I should possibly be p****d off for being more than one layer down from
"reality"?
Sheesh, guys.
Star Trek is fiction. *We made it all up.* I know we did, and do. I wrote
for Picard before anyone even knew what he looked like. (Even me.) ...But I
also refuse to say that one kind of fiction is better than another. I wear two
T-shirts with equal pride. One of them says, CANONICAL ... AND PROUD OF IT.
The other says, NON-CANONICAL...AND PROUD OF IT.
That is because *each* of these options _is equally fictional._
Whether they appear in print or on tape/celluloid doesn't matter a fig. Fiction
is _fiction_ is * fiction.* I reject categorically the idea that non-canonical
fiction is less fictional than canonical. ("It's all in Plato...all in Plato.
What _are_ they teaching them in these schools?" Or maybe I should quote
Korzybski again? Don't make me do that, guys. You wouldn't like it.)
It appears that there is some merit to your assertion. However, I note she specifically refers to "the reissued Rihannsu novels," and not the original publications, which I have (and they say nothing of the sort). That said, however, I also do have the reissued novels in the single book collection (plus the final book in a separate publication), and nowhere in them (not in the first pages or anywhere else) or on them do I find any claim of them being in an alternate reality, alternate timeline, parallel reality, or anything of the sort. So I'm still not sure where this is found in the books themselves. Perhaps an earlier publication of the reissue? In any case, irrelevant, because that universe/reality is the STO reality, as evidenced by STO taking inspiration from the Rihannsu saga. You can dislike that; you cannot deny it.
Furthermore, I fully agree with her statement on canon here:
"That is because *each* of these options _is equally fictional._
"Whether they appear in print or on tape/celluloid doesn't matter a fig. Fiction
is _fiction_ is * fiction.* I reject categorically the idea that non-canonical
fiction is less fictional than canonical."
My position is that Romulan society more appropriately resemble what we see on TNG more than on TOS because Romulans were fairly consistent with their portrayal outside of those two TOS episodes, making TOS Romulans the outlier.
Except that the TNG Romulans were not consistent; they were not all the backstabbing, "xenophobic," paranoid, fascist, thugs that you would prefer to see. You even admit to this yourself, but I'll come to that momentarily.
My position is actually quite the opposite. I'd prefer that Cryptic ease off the soft canon stuff and focus more on how things were portrayed in the shows and movies. But you are persistent in your insistence that a few select books are the go-to guide for what Romulans are up to when not on screen. The ENT era novel is used as an example that even within the Trek literary world, this is not undisputed.
Which would leave us with even more shallow character development, even less culture, even less history, ... They need material to work with, and hard canon does not provide sufficient material for the purposes of having developed characters. For all your contention that this or that STO Romulan is one-dimensional, I don't see it that way. Even Hhakhifv (arguably the closest main Romulan character to one-dimensional in the game) is more complex than that. Ruul might qualify for one-dimensional status, but he's also a rather minor character.
Yes. Two episodes. Not a whole lot of comparative screen time.
In the matter of textual criticism of the Judaeo-Christian scriptures, scholars used to count the variants in manuscripts, so that whichever variant reading occurred more often was the one they chose to go with. As time progressed, they realized that this was not the best idea someone ever had, because scribal errors could be repeated ad infinitum. Now, they "weigh" the texts themselves, and if a single "weightier" text (which generally means an older text) has one variant reading, while fifty "less weighty" texts have a different reading, they're likely going to to with the weightier text. TOS may have only had two episodes which featured Romulans, but those are THE ORIGINAL PORTRAYALS, and to me, that weighs far more than the portrayals in The New Guys. But let's go on with your post, shall we?
As for the rest, you use examples of a few sympathetic, friendly or honorable Romulans to extrapolate that the majority of all Romulans are all secretly like that. Which is a huge leap.
Not at all. To assume that a majority of a people who are "warriors, often savage" would be so cowed by the fascist police state that they are eager to comply with their "masters" is the huge leap. It is tantamount to asserting that Romulans are more like dogs than wolves.
I see those same Romulans and come to the conclusion that TNG Romulans aren't as one dimensional as their detractors would like to strawman them as- that they can be a militaristic, traditionalist and xenophobic society and still have their own virtues.
No, you don't. You claim instead that Republic Romulans in STO are "not like the Romulans in the shows."
If you read some threads, you might realize that most of the times that folks mock the tent city of New Romulus, it's because Cryptic still hasn't gotten around to making a New Romulus that makes sense in a narrative sense.
It doesn't matter why they do it. It matters that it has been shown to be false multiple times. Military and scientific bivouacs do not a "tent city" make. The claim that "Romulans are living in tents" is so inane as to be laughable, if it were not for the very real possibility that some who have made the claim may actually believe that, so willing are they to engage in doublethink (then again, fascism begets such a mentality).
Uh...what? That's not equivocation. In the literal way Trek canon is defined- only the shows, movies, and animated series are 'canon'. everything else that got the rubber stamp of approval, like books and games is officially not canon. Fan-made stuff is then 'fanon'.
So when she calls it 'non-canon' she means 'soft canon', that shouldn't be too hard to grasp.
Wait, what? You repackage what I say, while quoting only a minor bit, and then claim that it's your position, when it was actually my position? Wow, you've sunk to a new low.
Since you love dropping fallacies into every other sentence you use with no regard to if they are actually used or not, here's one for you-repetition fallacy The very existence of ongoing debate within this very thread shows that this matter is far from settled.
Reptition fallacy is the English monoglot's name for Argumentum ad Nauseam, which is what you and your pals have done.
The forum war is over. Your return to the forum does not revive it, no matter how much you would like for it to do so. Most of us get along with relative calm now, despite differences of opinion. At one point in time during the most heated battles, I said I would not be replying further to you, because you love to spew rhetoric and propaganda and eschew Logic. You twist things others say, you ignore evidence which is inconvenient, you complain if I address every point you make and then declare victory if I don't, you move the goalposts, engage in Abusive ad Hominem, build up Straw Men to tear down instead of addressing my actual claims, utter the most self-referentially incoherent tripe imaginable (contradicting yourself even in a single post!), and now are even willing to reword things I say and claim them as your own while trying to paint me as not being able to grasp the things which I myself have contended. Republic Romulans ARE like Romulans from the shows, but apparently are simply not like the Romulans YOU liked from the shows. And Cryptic isn't likely to suddenly decide "Oh, hey, we've decided it's all cool for you to play a villain faction after all." So yeah, give up. You will never win.
And as for the shows thing... Because Romulans acted a certain way in two episodes is not proof that the majority of Romulans were like that. The overwhelming majority of depictions point in another direction. Tomalak had a lot more depth to him than Hakeev ever had, and there examples of more sympathetic and fleshed out Romulan characters- but nice go at cherry picking and strawman-ing.
Not merely two epsiodes, as you have admitted, and yet denied, in this same post. Cognitive dissonance much?
Tomalak was a joke. The first 2 or 3 seasons of TNG were mostly a joke, with a few decent episodes here and there (but which were still rather weak by virtue of the acting being lackluster because few of the cast expected the series to last long and were therefore unwilling to fully commit to the characters), and even by the final episode, it was still only decent. Only with DS9 did we get a Trek that was more than decent again. I mean, look honestly at the poorly developed characters in the first few seasons: First Officer Quagmire, Counselor Newage Statetheobvious, Security Chief Feministcaricature (later replaced by Microbrain BecauseKlingonsAreTooStupidToDoAnythingApartFromSneeringAndGrowlingAndThusIHaveToBeIgnoredEvenWhenI'mRight), Lt Commander Pinnochio I'llBeARealBoySomeday, Doctor I'mOnlyHereAsTheCaptain'sSometimeLoveInterestAndMotherOfTheBoyGenius (temporarily replaced by Doctor I'mAFemaleMcCoy!), young Wesley I'mTheMostAnnoyingPersonOnTheShow, and a Blind Helmsman, with a captain who was French, yet spoke in the Received Pronunciation of the Posh segment of English society (and who was the most interesting of the lot, tbh). Absolute dreck. The single-episode-appearing Centurion Bochra was more well-developed than Toma-Lax.
Yeah, which RSE? I would prefer TOS-style RSE, and I despise TNG-style RSE as a perversion of the original into something ... deficient. That said, if I had the option to choose between TOS-style RSE, TNG-style RSE, and New Romulan Republic, I would probably have half of my Romulan characters in the TOS-style RSE and the other half in the New Romulan Republic.
But the idea that Cryptic/PWE would grant an RSE faction (of any style) is highly improbable, if not outright impossible. We don't have the numbers (and the decision to do the Romulan faction as they did, with forced alliances, incomplete development, and even as a Republic instead of an Empire, may very well have something to do with lack of numbers; frankly, I can't see why anyone would make a Fed or Klingon character as their first choice if Romulans are available as a full faction -- secondary and/or tertiary characters, sure, but I've dreamed of being the Romulan commander on TEI -- and marrying Spock -- since I was like ... 4 years old, for oh so many reasons).
what a coincidence I've dreamed of being Mr Spock and marrying the Romulans commander as long a I can remember. Together we can usher in a new age an age of Vulcan Romulan Unification. lol maybe his time with the commander was why Spock cared so much about unification.
The fact that "Unification, Part One" was set exactly one-hundred years after the events of TEI is pretty telling, I agree.
Yeah, which RSE? I would prefer TOS-style RSE, and I despise TNG-style RSE as a perversion of the original into something ... deficient. That said, if I had the option to choose between TOS-style RSE, TNG-style RSE, and New Romulan Republic, I would probably have half of my Romulan characters in the TOS-style RSE and the other half in the New Romulan Republic.
But the idea that Cryptic/PWE would grant an RSE faction (of any style) is highly improbable, if not outright impossible. We don't have the numbers (and the decision to do the Romulan faction as they did, with forced alliances, incomplete development, and even as a Republic instead of an Empire, may very well have something to do with lack of numbers; frankly, I can't see why anyone would make a Fed or Klingon character as their first choice if Romulans are available as a full faction -- secondary and/or tertiary characters, sure, but I've dreamed of being the Romulan commander on TEI -- and marrying Spock -- since I was like ... 4 years old, for oh so many reasons).
what a coincidence I've dreamed of being Mr Spock and marrying the Romulans commander as long a I can remember. Together we can usher in a new age an age of Vulcan Romulan Unification. lol maybe his time with the commander was why Spock cared so much about unification.
The fact that "Unification, Part One" was set exactly one-hundred years after the events of TEI is pretty telling, I agree.
Yeah, which RSE? I would prefer TOS-style RSE, and I despise TNG-style RSE as a perversion of the original into something ... deficient. That said, if I had the option to choose between TOS-style RSE, TNG-style RSE, and New Romulan Republic, I would probably have half of my Romulan characters in the TOS-style RSE and the other half in the New Romulan Republic.
But the idea that Cryptic/PWE would grant an RSE faction (of any style) is highly improbable, if not outright impossible. We don't have the numbers (and the decision to do the Romulan faction as they did, with forced alliances, incomplete development, and even as a Republic instead of an Empire, may very well have something to do with lack of numbers; frankly, I can't see why anyone would make a Fed or Klingon character as their first choice if Romulans are available as a full faction -- secondary and/or tertiary characters, sure, but I've dreamed of being the Romulan commander on TEI -- and marrying Spock -- since I was like ... 4 years old, for oh so many reasons).
what a coincidence I've dreamed of being Mr Spock and marrying the Romulans commander as long a I can remember. Together we can usher in a new age an age of Vulcan Romulan Unification. lol maybe his time with the commander was why Spock cared so much about unification.
The fact that "Unification, Part One" was set exactly one-hundred years after the events of TEI is pretty telling, I agree.
I think it might be presumptuous to call those that prefer 2 episodes of TOS "the majority". And like I said, I don't see there being much issue between the two, given what we saw in TNG/DS9 I think both captains from TOS would be able to function quite well in the TNG+ RSE, tho admittedly the war weary one would likely find himself on a quiet posting in the backwater of nowhere.
As for your there's the rub in and of itself. They aren't villains, they're TRIBBLE by human standards but not villains. One man's garbage is another man's treasure/art, this also applies to cultures, and is where a lot of the problems arise imo. Different morality/culture/lines of thinking are not wrong... judging them by your standards is. They don't have to be like you and the more "alien" they are, the less likely they will. I doubt anyone here wants to really play the moustache twirling fools Cryptic turned everything about RSE Leadership into(except maybe as a 1 off lark) but the RSE wasn't villains. Antagonistic, and confrontational sure, but even Tomalak worked with Picard when there was need. Just because someone is an TRIBBLE.hole doesn't automagically make them a villain.
To your C) well... Welcome to humanity... it doesn't matter what you like... someone will defecate on it cause they can. Weather they have an opinion on it or not.
I didn't say that those who prefer TOS were THE majority, but part of one. One that does not want Romulans to be a villain vacation. And make no mistake, in TNG they were meant to be villains, the competent villains who offset the lack of Klingon villainy. I for one both prefer TOS, and think its great that my favorite species gets a chance to be the heroes, and doesn't have to play third fiddle in the good guy alliance, instead being the ego, reconciling the Federation (Superego) and Klingons (Id) in the Freudian trio that is the Alliance.
I like the TNG Romulans even if they were made out to be villains they were smart, cunning and deceptive but it also showed the honor and compassion of the Romulan people. The Defector, The Enemy, Unification I and II and Face of The Enemy are all great episodes that show us how that when the Romulan Star Empire may be a villain the Romulan people are not.
Yeah, which RSE? I would prefer TOS-style RSE, and I despise TNG-style RSE as a perversion of the original into something ... deficient. That said, if I had the option to choose between TOS-style RSE, TNG-style RSE, and New Romulan Republic, I would probably have half of my Romulan characters in the TOS-style RSE and the other half in the New Romulan Republic.
But the idea that Cryptic/PWE would grant an RSE faction (of any style) is highly improbable, if not outright impossible. We don't have the numbers (and the decision to do the Romulan faction as they did, with forced alliances, incomplete development, and even as a Republic instead of an Empire, may very well have something to do with lack of numbers; frankly, I can't see why anyone would make a Fed or Klingon character as their first choice if Romulans are available as a full faction -- secondary and/or tertiary characters, sure, but I've dreamed of being the Romulan commander on TEI -- and marrying Spock -- since I was like ... 4 years old, for oh so many reasons).
what a coincidence I've dreamed of being Mr Spock and marrying the Romulans commander as long a I can remember. Together we can usher in a new age an age of Vulcan Romulan Unification. lol maybe his time with the commander was why Spock cared so much about unification.
The fact that "Unification, Part One" was set exactly one-hundred years after the events of TEI is pretty telling, I agree.
I like the TNG Romulans even if they were made out to be villains they were smart, cunning and deceptive but it also showed the honor and compassion of the Romulan people. The Defector, The Enemy, Unification I and II and Face of The Enemy are all great episodes that show us how that when the Romulan Star Empire may be a villain the Romulan people are not.
Which one was the episode where they evacuated a D'derp because some aliens had made babies in its singularity core? Seems everyone forgets that one. Most definitely shows Romulans aren't all ha'skeev
Which one was the episode where they evacuated a D'derp because some aliens had made babies in its singularity core? Seems everyone forgets that one. Most definitely shows Romulans aren't all ha'skeev
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Wow love the discussion I joined this game way back for the Romulans. That was hard as I'm a massive Romulan Fan-Love the Diane Duane books-But this hate of TNG Romulans or they were a nasty phase the race were going through I cannot join in. The snippets we got in I think was it 14 episodes of TNG showed a culture of complexity. A people who would kill their own children than let them live with what they deemed an impairment (Face of the Enemy -Bochra amazed Geordi was allowed to live with being blind at birth) yet by same token they had no issue with a "Half Breed" of race (humans) they warred with (Sela) to rise to power on her merit.
We saw the Romulan camp commander give up his future to marry a Klingon and an Admiral risk everything to avoid war and defect. Face of the Enemy gave us Commander Toreth Loyal to the Empire and her Crew-but no love for the Tal Shiar -one dimensional dictatorships do not produce characters like this.
When the Romulans came into STO I was "confused" but accepted after the first JJ TRIBBLE that the STO guys had to work as best they could with the mess left.
The Republic is ok but I cannot accept that the RSE is some tiny remnant -just because we have to swallow that the homeworld of the RSE is wiped out by the silly star that means shows over the Empire is a wipe. An intelligent Warlike spacefaring race that has been warring with one of the biggest and baddest Warriors for 75 years prior to TNG and they collapse and all just go with the "New Republic" is rubbish, even harder to belive when their lifespans go into centuries.
I see this where a faction like the Republic could emerge -but I see a still powerful faction of the Empire.
I know this is late but love the discussion just had to type my piece:)
The TNG RSE did not produce them; the TOS RSE did. Romulans live 200-250 years. The Tal'Shiar was established in 2344.
And the RSE is a tiny remnant now (in 2410), because they couldn't stop trying to pick fights with everyone in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants, and consistently got their behinds handed to them as a result.
I suggest you read back through the older threads in this forum (and not necro any more threads).
Can you clarify this reply please?
Where do I mention the "production" of something that TNG RSE did?
Why tell me the already known lifespan of Romulans?
So this date for the establishment of theTal Shiar-what Episode is this mentioned in?
Ok I agree in the game RSE is tiny since it appears to make stupid tactical/strategic choices
Why with attitude? "not necro any more threads" are you Admin and I got replies from others without this needed to told to me and this thread is now living again. In fact its going strong
only reason I didnt tell ya the same thing about necro'ing threads is because this forum doesn't have enough discussion as it is and none of the mods seem to give a dung
Where do I mention the "production" of something that TNG RSE did?
Why tell me the already known lifespan of Romulans?
So this date for the establishment of theTal Shiar-what Episode is this mentioned in?
Ok I agree in the game RSE is tiny since it appears to make stupid tactical/strategic choices
Why with attitude? "not necro any more threads" are you Admin and I got replies from others without this needed to told to me and this thread is now living again. In fact its going strong
I;ll take a stab. My guess is...
You mentioned Toreth, Jarok, etc, being products of the TNG era RSE, when they both predate it, being middle aged.
You said the life of Romulans is measured in centuries, and she was specifying how long.
Its in no episodes. The only thing we know for sure about the Tal Shiar is that they are KGB/Gestapo expies. That date is the one for the foundation of the Tal Shiar from the novel Vulcan's Heart, since novels are really one of the only sources we have for such things. The Ent novels mention it being in that time, which I can't speak about since I couldn't even finish the first one. And to confuse it more, I think there's some other source that mentions an Intelligence/Security organization predating hte Tal Shiar that we know and love that was occasionally referred to by the same name. So...
Where do I mention the "production" of something that TNG RSE did?
Why tell me the already known lifespan of Romulans?
So this date for the establishment of theTal Shiar-what Episode is this mentioned in?
Ok I agree in the game RSE is tiny since it appears to make stupid tactical/strategic choices
Why with attitude? "not necro any more threads" are you Admin and I got replies from others without this needed to told to me and this thread is now living again. In fact its going strong
I;ll take a stab. My guess is...
You mentioned Toreth, Jarok, etc, being products of the TNG era RSE, when they both predate it, being middle aged.
You said the life of Romulans is measured in centuries, and she was specifying how long.
Its in no episodes. The only thing we know for sure about the Tal Shiar is that they are KGB/Gestapo expies. That date is the one for the foundation of the Tal Shiar from the novel Vulcan's Heart, since novels are really one of the only sources we have for such things. The Ent novels mention it being in that time, which I can't speak about since I couldn't even finish the first one. And to confuse it more, I think there's some other source that mentions an Intelligence/Security organization predating hte Tal Shiar that we know and love that was occasionally referred to by the same name. So...
ok so the source is a novel ok that open things up a bit as canon becomes a case of what it is canon for trek and it for all or is it cherry picking?
I like the TNG Romulans even if they were made out to be villains they were smart, cunning and deceptive but it also showed the honor and compassion of the Romulan people. The Defector, The Enemy, Unification I and II and Face of The Enemy are all great episodes that show us how that when the Romulan Star Empire may be a villain the Romulan people are not.
Which one was the episode where they evacuated a D'derp because some aliens had made babies in its singularity core? Seems everyone forgets that one. Most definitely shows Romulans aren't all ha'skeev
that was Timesscape and good pick up. It did again show the Romulans were not just evil cliches.
that was Timesscape and good pick up. It did again show the Romulans were not just evil cliches.
I think nobody actually claimed them to be. Having stereotype characters is boring and individuals always have a bigger freedom. But the general characterization and the cultures of the people in question usually plays a part in the whole picture. Having free thinkers with their own spirit is very welcome but how far that freedom reaches is another matter. For instance in "the Enterprise incident" the claim to grant amnesty to the crew of the Enterprise by the commander is often referenced as a example for a different "culture" for TOS Romulans. I don't see that given the context of that claim but that's not the point here - even if the Commander and her subordinates would actually want to do that I highly doubt she could actually do that - the crew would have been taken in custody and her superiors would take over, then processing the enemy crew via intelligence services, penal colonies or firing squads. We often see characters, captains, officials act a certain way int he shows but make clear that this is not official and mustn't 'leave the room', so to speak.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Having free thinkers with their own spirit is very welcome but how far that freedom reaches is another matter. For instance in "the Enterprise incident" the claim to grant amnesty to the crew of the Enterprise by the commander is often referenced as a example for a different "culture" for TOS Romulans. I don't see that given the context of that claim but that's not the point here - even if the Commander and her subordinates would actually want to do that I highly doubt she could actually do that - the crew would have been taken in custody and her superiors would take over, then processing the enemy crew via intelligence services, penal colonies or firing squads. We often see characters, captains, officials act a certain way int he shows but make clear that this is not official and mustn't 'leave the room', so to speak.
@protogoth : Of course it's speculative, we have no basis to voice anything but speculation about that matter. It's just my interpretation - but I never claimed it was more than that (if I did so I apologize for it and will correct the passage suggesting it)
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I think that the bigger picture is the way Romulans have been gutted here in STO - the argument between TOS vs TNG+ Romulan superiority is irrelevant... What is more at issue is the fact that after Romulus was destroyed, the Romulan Rebels broke away and fled to the waiting arms of the Federation and Klingon Empire - both seeking allegiance with someone over the other... AKA a commodity...
I may not have been in the game itself long - however from the presentation of Romulans throughout Star Trek - they are not likely to truly be essentially the Lapdogs they are in STO - honestly... The RSE is automatically the villain because STO is heavily Federation geared - and the Federation would jump at a Romulan Republic - especially one that is weak and unable to be a self asserting force like the Empire was - in all honesty, the Romulans, although usually the villain, where someone that I always admired for the desire to self preserve their interests - and not simply bow to the Federation 'just because'.
This thread is long - however the root issue is that the Romulans have been gutted, the RSE pronounced Dead just because the Federation would have better liked such and idea - and now the Romulan choice is either siding with the Klingons (who seem more in line with the pride Romulans have always shown) or the Federation (who when looking at them from the POV of a Romulan are unbelievably annoying and set themselves above everyone.)
The STO universe needs more open ended movement - I.E - the Romulans being allowed to form the Empire - and actually work against the Federation - or Klingons ... Not everyone holding hands and singing around the rubble of Romulus --- Episodic gameplay is nice - but at the same time it forces a story line - when there is truly no limit to what could be accomplished by the different governments in the game... Federation is always the hippie, the Klingons the warriors, and the Romulans the quiet expansionist - instead - we have the Klingons with no teeth, the Federation holding the crown, and the Romulans begging for scraps at everyones table.
Picard and his gang of misfits (Commander Quagmire, his sometime-girlfriend Counselor State-the-Obvious, Pinocchio aspiring to be a real boy, a blind helmsman, and Microbrain, not to mention Doctor I'm-here-as-a-thinly-veiled-love-interest-for-the-captain-and-otherwise-have-no-real-purpose and her son Annoying Boy Geekwiz)
@lucifer666s8n I agree in principle, however you have to also mention that the UFP/Starfleet in no way act like we would expect them to do either. STO does poorly at portraying either of those factions or fractions. The general outline of this game seem like they were written without Star Trek in mind and only later were the Trek stickers and paintjobs applied to it.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I have been thinking the same myself - It is similar to Starfleet Command (a set of games that came out years ago - they made 3 I believe) here essentially all you do is go shoot at this or that over and over again - they just added FPS nonsense.
Then again, they wouldn't be able to attract all the money they do with an actual Star Trek game - they have to draw in the action hogs, ship builders, and other such people who play the game for the game not what it is... If that makes any sense.
Picard and his gang of misfits (Commander Quagmire, his sometime-girlfriend Counselor State-the-Obvious, Pinocchio aspiring to be a real boy, a blind helmsman, and Microbrain, not to mention Doctor I'm-here-as-a-thinly-veiled-love-interest-for-the-captain-and-otherwise-have-no-real-purpose and her son Annoying Boy Geekwiz)
I largely agree with the previous 3 posts. One thing I would point out tho, it has been stated time and again, they did not make the Romulan fraction for Romulan fans really, they chose something so generic it could appeal to the broadest generic audience and they ended up copying a lot of the basic plot of the Rebel Alliance from Star Wars' "Civil War Era"
I am very tired of the constant attempt to portray the Republic as "lapdogs begging for scraps" by those who have little frame of reference for what Romulans were BEFORE 1988 and thus believe that Romulans "should" be amoral, backstabbing, sneaky, conniving, "xenophobic," paranoid, goosestepping villains ((all the more because most of those who make such claims have Klingon or Federation avatars and signatures, which should serve to indicate where their loyalties actually lie, and that should be sufficient clue to even the supporters of the Star Empire as to who is trying to play them [*see note below], although the Star Empire loyalists in recent decades have frequently been deceived by those who do not have their best interests in mind)).
The Republic has restored "Romulan" as one of the three major powers of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants, while Sela and her idiots were still squabbling over the crumbling ruins of the Star Empire and trying to pick fights with everyone else. The Republic brought the Federation and the Klingons to the table to negotiate a ceasefire and eventual alliance, without which the Undine would have rolled over all of us, including the Star Empire, before the Iconians ever showed up. The Republic abolished the slavery of the Reman people and brought them to the status of equals and won their loyalty. The Republic leads the alliance in the Solanae Dyson Sphere and has not one, but two Intelligence operatives in the Jenolan Dyson Sphere, and one at Drozana Station. Section 31 and Klingon Intelligence work with Republic Militia Intelligence and New Romulus Intelligence as equals. Those who attempt to obstruct everything D'Tan tries to do and then blame him for their own failures, blame him for his successes which they try to portray as failures, and blame him for very nearly anything, whether or not he had diddly squat to do with it, need not bother to regurgitate the same old propaganda in reply. This is not the behavior of rational persons, but partisan ideologues who have put on blinkers to see only in one direction. Can any of you point to the smallest success accomplished by Sela apart from putting herself in power and then having to protect her own rear repeatedly? She is a failure, and always was, as far back as TNG. D'Tan, on the other hand, is a leader, and a very competent one.
The claim that "the Federation would jump at a Romulan Republic" ignores the actual events in-game. On the contrary, the Federation representatives at the Khitomer Conference were two: naive and idealistic Sugihara who envisioned a glorious one-galaxy united under the covert imperialism of the Federation, and illogical and racist T'nae who did all she could to antagonize the Romulan player. It was not until Temer sacrificed himself to save the Klingon Woldan, who then was eager to pledge Klingon recognition of and alliance with the Republic, that the Federation decided that they had better do likewise, solely in order to prevent the Klingons from gaining an advantage.
* Note:
"Debbe uno capitano, tra tutte l'altre sue azioni, con ogni arte ingegnarsi di dividere le forze del nimico, o col fargli sospetti i suoi uomini ne' quali confida, o con dargli cagione ch'egli abbia a separare le sue genti e, per questo, diventare più debole."
-- Niccolò Machiavelli, Dell'arte della guerra, Libro sesto
I am very tired of the constant attempt to portray the Republic as "lapdogs begging for scraps" by those who have little frame of reference for what Romulans were BEFORE 1988 and thus believe that Romulans "should" be amoral, backstabbing, sneaky, conniving, "xenophobic," paranoid, goosestepping villains ((all the more because most of those who make such claims have Klingon or Federation avatars and signatures, which should serve to indicate where their loyalties actually lie, and that should be sufficient clue to even the supporters of the Star Empire as to who is trying to play them [*see note below], although the Star Empire loyalists in recent decades have frequently been deceived by those who do not have their best interests in mind)).
The Republic has restored "Romulan" as one of the three major powers of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants, while Sela and her idiots were still squabbling over the crumbling ruins of the Star Empire and trying to pick fights with everyone else. The Republic brought the Federation and the Klingons to the table to negotiate a ceasefire and eventual alliance, without which the Undine would have rolled over all of us, including the Star Empire, before the Iconians ever showed up. The Republic abolished the slavery of the Reman people and brought them to the status of equals and won their loyalty. The Republic leads the alliance in the Solanae Dyson Sphere and has not one, but two Intelligence operatives in the Jenolan Dyson Sphere, and one at Drozana Station. Section 31 and Klingon Intelligence work with Republic Militia Intelligence and New Romulus Intelligence as equals. Those who attempt to obstruct everything D'Tan tries to do and then blame him for their own failures, blame him for his successes which they try to portray as failures, and blame him for very nearly anything, whether or not he had diddly squat to do with it, need not bother to regurgitate the same old propaganda in reply. This is not the behavior of rational persons, but partisan ideologues who have put on blinkers to see only in one direction. Can any of you point to the smallest success accomplished by Sela apart from putting herself in power and then having to protect her own rear repeatedly? She is a failure, and always was, as far back as TNG. D'Tan, on the other hand, is a leader, and a very competent one.
The claim that "the Federation would jump at a Romulan Republic" ignores the actual events in-game. On the contrary, the Federation representatives at the Khitomer Conference were two: naive and idealistic Sugihara who envisioned a glorious one-galaxy united under the covert imperialism of the Federation, and illogical and racist T'nae who did all she could to antagonize the Romulan player. It was not until Temer sacrificed himself to save the Klingon Woldan, who then was eager to pledge Klingon recognition of and alliance with the Republic, that the Federation decided that they had better do likewise, solely in order to prevent the Klingons from gaining an advantage.
* Note:
"Debbe uno capitano, tra tutte l'altre sue azioni, con ogni arte ingegnarsi di dividere le forze del nimico, o col fargli sospetti i suoi uomini ne' quali confida, o con dargli cagione ch'egli abbia a separare le sue genti e, per questo, diventare più debole."
-- Niccolò Machiavelli, Dell'arte della guerra, Libro sesto
The Donatrists and the Satoists rally for the Republic. The leadership qualities shown, are far better, and far outweigh the corruption, decadence, and treachery of the Star Empire.
Can any of you point to the smallest success accomplished by Sela apart from putting herself in power and then having to protect her own rear repeatedly? She is a failure, and always was, as far back as TNG. D'Tan, on the other hand, is a leader, and a very competent one.
I can think of 2 successes she has accomplished.. 1)she's still breathing even in Dominion space...(tho I just hit t5 iconian rep and she's running again) 2)she used an e-reader to hack borg tech implants in orbit and take control of Gaius.
Now remember I think she needs a really beautiful view of deep space without an EVA suit, and I agree she's a f*king abominable character that exists, survives, and reappears out of some sick and twisted need by trek writers and Crosby's desire to not completely fade into the obscurity she deserves.
I am very tired of the constant attempt to portray the Republic as "lapdogs begging for scraps" by those who have little frame of reference for what Romulans were BEFORE 1988 and thus believe that Romulans "should" be amoral, backstabbing, sneaky, conniving, "xenophobic," paranoid, goosestepping villains ((all the more because most of those who make such claims have Klingon or Federation avatars and signatures, which should serve to indicate where their loyalties actually lie, and that should be sufficient clue to even the supporters of the Star Empire as to who is trying to play them [*see note below], although the Star Empire loyalists in recent decades have frequently been deceived by those who do not have their best interests in mind)).(...)
I have to ask, where does this fixation on "loyalty" towards a faction come from? Sometimes I am a little afraid that you forget that this here is about a Sci-Fi TV show and a videogame. Why people are so obsessed with a "fixed choice" for whatever element of that show you like or like to represent in a game is beyond me.
The playable Romulans in STO do not represent the Romulans memorable from the show. That's a pretty safe fact - it doesn't mean they have to be stereotype villians, but that people who wanted to play Romulans don't see their uniforms, don't use their weapons and for the most part don't fly their ships. And the Republic's overall style does very strongly represent a "Rebel Alliance" more than it does the Romulan Empire.
EDIT: The "Lapdog" thing probably comes from the unfortunate form Cryptic choose for the Romulans in this game. A cross-faction character choice is nothing you would suspect the Romulan Empire to be - which is why they were changed to a faction that cannot sustain itself. That's something disappointed fans can adress, no matter if the game lore supports it. The way the Romulans work in this game is something you'd think the Deferi would work but Cryptic decided to abandon that part of the game.
Post edited by angrytarg on
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Im a fan Romulans full stop-TOS, TNG DS9 and yes even Nemesis as far as Film/TV goes Novel wise I love the Rihannsu- The reality of Writers/Gene changing this Race since it first appeared makes creating a cohesive race that appeals to all of diverse canon and non canon media fans nigh impossible.
When Ron Moore got hold of Klingons in Ds9 he could flesh them out -with enough Klingon love their culture is easy to portray in game and consistent.
The other aspect is some TRIBBLE writer(s) wanting to make blockbuster of a movie that appeals to mainstream and we get two critical homeworlds of two established Races of Trek blown up for nothing more than big bang fx.
Forcing cryptic to have their timeline work in St2009 in all of its gaping plothole glory.
Now the dynamic of the RSE up to that point is thrown out.The fans still want Romulans in -The game as you can tell from start was built on a 2 faction pvp model a third full faction Romulan was apparently not an option (though in tos/tng/ds9 it worked well and had great storylines from it) we get this bizarre Fed/Rom and Klingon/Rom mess and no one is fully happy.
Even the situation in Nemesis was a chance for new take again on Romulans post Shinzons Coup -Donatra was a a great potential that in the novels wasted and than RSE which for 2000 years or more survived and was a player in the interstellar politics collapses after one world is wiped out by the hobus whatever -In the "canon" comic according to the writers st2009 -The Romulans had notice of this event but did not evacuate the leadership from the homeworld leaving that to a mining ship that is the only ship in orbit in time -FFS My cat could write better.
Than Cryptic decide to take another established character Sela give her a title and now we have Romulans merging with borg and Hirogen its all a massive train wreck.
So the "Republic" is going to be the best option as there is nothing better. Still this is the only mmo/rpg where I can play a Romulan at all. I just wish they could allow the ds9 and nemesis uniform options.
So the "Republic" is going to be the best option as there is nothing better. Still this is the only mmo/rpg where I can play a Romulan at all. (...)
Agreed, and this is to what it boils down eventually - we don't have other options and negotiation is pointless. We have to play what Cryptic came up with, and Cryptic, in my opinion, made countless "mistakes" when STO was designed. I would be hyped to see a TOS (not movie) set game with three factions, explorations, outposts and RvR mechanic. But well...
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Comments
As for your
To your C) well... Welcome to humanity... it doesn't matter what you like... someone will defecate on it cause they can. Weather they have an opinion on it or not.
what a coincidence I've dreamed of being Mr Spock and marrying the Romulans commander as long a I can remember. Together we can usher in a new age an age of Vulcan Romulan Unification. lol maybe his time with the commander was why Spock cared so much about unification.
I didn't say that those who prefer TOS were THE majority, but part of one. One that does not want Romulans to be a villain vacation. And make no mistake, in TNG they were meant to be villains, the competent villains who offset the lack of Klingon villainy. I for one both prefer TOS, and think its great that my favorite species gets a chance to be the heroes, and doesn't have to play third fiddle in the good guy alliance, instead being the ego, reconciling the Federation (Superego) and Klingons (Id) in the Freudian trio that is the Alliance.
Well, gee, Beaver, I think maybe it's because you can't seem to wrap your head around the idea that my acceptance of some soft canon does not necessitate my acceptance of all soft canon.
Alright, I found a post by Ms Duane from 2001 in which she wrote:
It appears that there is some merit to your assertion. However, I note she specifically refers to "the reissued Rihannsu novels," and not the original publications, which I have (and they say nothing of the sort). That said, however, I also do have the reissued novels in the single book collection (plus the final book in a separate publication), and nowhere in them (not in the first pages or anywhere else) or on them do I find any claim of them being in an alternate reality, alternate timeline, parallel reality, or anything of the sort. So I'm still not sure where this is found in the books themselves. Perhaps an earlier publication of the reissue? In any case, irrelevant, because that universe/reality is the STO reality, as evidenced by STO taking inspiration from the Rihannsu saga. You can dislike that; you cannot deny it.
Furthermore, I fully agree with her statement on canon here:
"That is because *each* of these options _is equally fictional._
"Whether they appear in print or on tape/celluloid doesn't matter a fig. Fiction
is _fiction_ is * fiction.* I reject categorically the idea that non-canonical
fiction is less fictional than canonical."
Except that the TNG Romulans were not consistent; they were not all the backstabbing, "xenophobic," paranoid, fascist, thugs that you would prefer to see. You even admit to this yourself, but I'll come to that momentarily.
Which would leave us with even more shallow character development, even less culture, even less history, ... They need material to work with, and hard canon does not provide sufficient material for the purposes of having developed characters. For all your contention that this or that STO Romulan is one-dimensional, I don't see it that way. Even Hhakhifv (arguably the closest main Romulan character to one-dimensional in the game) is more complex than that. Ruul might qualify for one-dimensional status, but he's also a rather minor character.
In the matter of textual criticism of the Judaeo-Christian scriptures, scholars used to count the variants in manuscripts, so that whichever variant reading occurred more often was the one they chose to go with. As time progressed, they realized that this was not the best idea someone ever had, because scribal errors could be repeated ad infinitum. Now, they "weigh" the texts themselves, and if a single "weightier" text (which generally means an older text) has one variant reading, while fifty "less weighty" texts have a different reading, they're likely going to to with the weightier text. TOS may have only had two episodes which featured Romulans, but those are THE ORIGINAL PORTRAYALS, and to me, that weighs far more than the portrayals in The New Guys. But let's go on with your post, shall we?
Not at all. To assume that a majority of a people who are "warriors, often savage" would be so cowed by the fascist police state that they are eager to comply with their "masters" is the huge leap. It is tantamount to asserting that Romulans are more like dogs than wolves.
No, you don't. You claim instead that Republic Romulans in STO are "not like the Romulans in the shows."
It doesn't matter why they do it. It matters that it has been shown to be false multiple times. Military and scientific bivouacs do not a "tent city" make. The claim that "Romulans are living in tents" is so inane as to be laughable, if it were not for the very real possibility that some who have made the claim may actually believe that, so willing are they to engage in doublethink (then again, fascism begets such a mentality).
Wait, what? You repackage what I say, while quoting only a minor bit, and then claim that it's your position, when it was actually my position? Wow, you've sunk to a new low.
Reptition fallacy is the English monoglot's name for Argumentum ad Nauseam, which is what you and your pals have done.
The forum war is over. Your return to the forum does not revive it, no matter how much you would like for it to do so. Most of us get along with relative calm now, despite differences of opinion. At one point in time during the most heated battles, I said I would not be replying further to you, because you love to spew rhetoric and propaganda and eschew Logic. You twist things others say, you ignore evidence which is inconvenient, you complain if I address every point you make and then declare victory if I don't, you move the goalposts, engage in Abusive ad Hominem, build up Straw Men to tear down instead of addressing my actual claims, utter the most self-referentially incoherent tripe imaginable (contradicting yourself even in a single post!), and now are even willing to reword things I say and claim them as your own while trying to paint me as not being able to grasp the things which I myself have contended. Republic Romulans ARE like Romulans from the shows, but apparently are simply not like the Romulans YOU liked from the shows. And Cryptic isn't likely to suddenly decide "Oh, hey, we've decided it's all cool for you to play a villain faction after all." So yeah, give up. You will never win.
Not merely two epsiodes, as you have admitted, and yet denied, in this same post. Cognitive dissonance much?
Tomalak was a joke. The first 2 or 3 seasons of TNG were mostly a joke, with a few decent episodes here and there (but which were still rather weak by virtue of the acting being lackluster because few of the cast expected the series to last long and were therefore unwilling to fully commit to the characters), and even by the final episode, it was still only decent. Only with DS9 did we get a Trek that was more than decent again. I mean, look honestly at the poorly developed characters in the first few seasons: First Officer Quagmire, Counselor Newage Statetheobvious, Security Chief Feministcaricature (later replaced by Microbrain BecauseKlingonsAreTooStupidToDoAnythingApartFromSneeringAndGrowlingAndThusIHaveToBeIgnoredEvenWhenI'mRight), Lt Commander Pinnochio I'llBeARealBoySomeday, Doctor I'mOnlyHereAsTheCaptain'sSometimeLoveInterestAndMotherOfTheBoyGenius (temporarily replaced by Doctor I'mAFemaleMcCoy!), young Wesley I'mTheMostAnnoyingPersonOnTheShow, and a Blind Helmsman, with a captain who was French, yet spoke in the Received Pronunciation of the Posh segment of English society (and who was the most interesting of the lot, tbh). Absolute dreck. The single-episode-appearing Centurion Bochra was more well-developed than Toma-Lax.
The fact that "Unification, Part One" was set exactly one-hundred years after the events of TEI is pretty telling, I agree.
So are you hitting on me? :P
I guess I was.
p.s. its just the music track dont flip out
Rh'e? I've sent you a friend request on Arc.
Jealous, Kodachi? :P
Accepted
Which one was the episode where they evacuated a D'derp because some aliens had made babies in its singularity core? Seems everyone forgets that one. Most definitely shows Romulans aren't all ha'skeev
Timescape
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Can you clarify this reply please?
Where do I mention the "production" of something that TNG RSE did?
Why tell me the already known lifespan of Romulans?
So this date for the establishment of theTal Shiar-what Episode is this mentioned in?
Ok I agree in the game RSE is tiny since it appears to make stupid tactical/strategic choices
Why with attitude? "not necro any more threads" are you Admin and I got replies from others without this needed to told to me and this thread is now living again. In fact its going strong
I;ll take a stab. My guess is...
You mentioned Toreth, Jarok, etc, being products of the TNG era RSE, when they both predate it, being middle aged.
You said the life of Romulans is measured in centuries, and she was specifying how long.
Its in no episodes. The only thing we know for sure about the Tal Shiar is that they are KGB/Gestapo expies. That date is the one for the foundation of the Tal Shiar from the novel Vulcan's Heart, since novels are really one of the only sources we have for such things. The Ent novels mention it being in that time, which I can't speak about since I couldn't even finish the first one. And to confuse it more, I think there's some other source that mentions an Intelligence/Security organization predating hte Tal Shiar that we know and love that was occasionally referred to by the same name. So...
ok so the source is a novel ok that open things up a bit as canon becomes a case of what it is canon for trek and it for all or is it cherry picking?
that was Timesscape and good pick up. It did again show the Romulans were not just evil cliches.
I think nobody actually claimed them to be. Having stereotype characters is boring and individuals always have a bigger freedom. But the general characterization and the cultures of the people in question usually plays a part in the whole picture. Having free thinkers with their own spirit is very welcome but how far that freedom reaches is another matter. For instance in "the Enterprise incident" the claim to grant amnesty to the crew of the Enterprise by the commander is often referenced as a example for a different "culture" for TOS Romulans. I don't see that given the context of that claim but that's not the point here - even if the Commander and her subordinates would actually want to do that I highly doubt she could actually do that - the crew would have been taken in custody and her superiors would take over, then processing the enemy crew via intelligence services, penal colonies or firing squads. We often see characters, captains, officials act a certain way int he shows but make clear that this is not official and mustn't 'leave the room', so to speak.
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I may not have been in the game itself long - however from the presentation of Romulans throughout Star Trek - they are not likely to truly be essentially the Lapdogs they are in STO - honestly... The RSE is automatically the villain because STO is heavily Federation geared - and the Federation would jump at a Romulan Republic - especially one that is weak and unable to be a self asserting force like the Empire was - in all honesty, the Romulans, although usually the villain, where someone that I always admired for the desire to self preserve their interests - and not simply bow to the Federation 'just because'.
This thread is long - however the root issue is that the Romulans have been gutted, the RSE pronounced Dead just because the Federation would have better liked such and idea - and now the Romulan choice is either siding with the Klingons (who seem more in line with the pride Romulans have always shown) or the Federation (who when looking at them from the POV of a Romulan are unbelievably annoying and set themselves above everyone.)
The STO universe needs more open ended movement - I.E - the Romulans being allowed to form the Empire - and actually work against the Federation - or Klingons ... Not everyone holding hands and singing around the rubble of Romulus --- Episodic gameplay is nice - but at the same time it forces a story line - when there is truly no limit to what could be accomplished by the different governments in the game... Federation is always the hippie, the Klingons the warriors, and the Romulans the quiet expansionist - instead - we have the Klingons with no teeth, the Federation holding the crown, and the Romulans begging for scraps at everyones table.
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Then again, they wouldn't be able to attract all the money they do with an actual Star Trek game - they have to draw in the action hogs, ship builders, and other such people who play the game for the game not what it is... If that makes any sense.
The Republic has restored "Romulan" as one of the three major powers of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants, while Sela and her idiots were still squabbling over the crumbling ruins of the Star Empire and trying to pick fights with everyone else. The Republic brought the Federation and the Klingons to the table to negotiate a ceasefire and eventual alliance, without which the Undine would have rolled over all of us, including the Star Empire, before the Iconians ever showed up. The Republic abolished the slavery of the Reman people and brought them to the status of equals and won their loyalty. The Republic leads the alliance in the Solanae Dyson Sphere and has not one, but two Intelligence operatives in the Jenolan Dyson Sphere, and one at Drozana Station. Section 31 and Klingon Intelligence work with Republic Militia Intelligence and New Romulus Intelligence as equals. Those who attempt to obstruct everything D'Tan tries to do and then blame him for their own failures, blame him for his successes which they try to portray as failures, and blame him for very nearly anything, whether or not he had diddly squat to do with it, need not bother to regurgitate the same old propaganda in reply. This is not the behavior of rational persons, but partisan ideologues who have put on blinkers to see only in one direction. Can any of you point to the smallest success accomplished by Sela apart from putting herself in power and then having to protect her own rear repeatedly? She is a failure, and always was, as far back as TNG. D'Tan, on the other hand, is a leader, and a very competent one.
The claim that "the Federation would jump at a Romulan Republic" ignores the actual events in-game. On the contrary, the Federation representatives at the Khitomer Conference were two: naive and idealistic Sugihara who envisioned a glorious one-galaxy united under the covert imperialism of the Federation, and illogical and racist T'nae who did all she could to antagonize the Romulan player. It was not until Temer sacrificed himself to save the Klingon Woldan, who then was eager to pledge Klingon recognition of and alliance with the Republic, that the Federation decided that they had better do likewise, solely in order to prevent the Klingons from gaining an advantage.
* Note:
"Debbe uno capitano, tra tutte l'altre sue azioni, con ogni arte ingegnarsi di dividere le forze del nimico, o col fargli sospetti i suoi uomini ne' quali confida, o con dargli cagione ch'egli abbia a separare le sue genti e, per questo, diventare più debole."
-- Niccolò Machiavelli, Dell'arte della guerra, Libro sesto
The Donatrists and the Satoists rally for the Republic. The leadership qualities shown, are far better, and far outweigh the corruption, decadence, and treachery of the Star Empire.
Tal'Shiar/Reman Resistance/Romulan Nemesis uniform, pls.
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7403/13262502435_5604548f2c_o.png
Now remember I think she needs a really beautiful view of deep space without an EVA suit, and I agree she's a f*king abominable character that exists, survives, and reappears out of some sick and twisted need by trek writers and Crosby's desire to not completely fade into the obscurity she deserves.
I have to ask, where does this fixation on "loyalty" towards a faction come from? Sometimes I am a little afraid that you forget that this here is about a Sci-Fi TV show and a videogame. Why people are so obsessed with a "fixed choice" for whatever element of that show you like or like to represent in a game is beyond me.
The playable Romulans in STO do not represent the Romulans memorable from the show. That's a pretty safe fact - it doesn't mean they have to be stereotype villians, but that people who wanted to play Romulans don't see their uniforms, don't use their weapons and for the most part don't fly their ships. And the Republic's overall style does very strongly represent a "Rebel Alliance" more than it does the Romulan Empire.
EDIT: The "Lapdog" thing probably comes from the unfortunate form Cryptic choose for the Romulans in this game. A cross-faction character choice is nothing you would suspect the Romulan Empire to be - which is why they were changed to a faction that cannot sustain itself. That's something disappointed fans can adress, no matter if the game lore supports it. The way the Romulans work in this game is something you'd think the Deferi would work but Cryptic decided to abandon that part of the game.
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When Ron Moore got hold of Klingons in Ds9 he could flesh them out -with enough Klingon love their culture is easy to portray in game and consistent.
The other aspect is some TRIBBLE writer(s) wanting to make blockbuster of a movie that appeals to mainstream and we get two critical homeworlds of two established Races of Trek blown up for nothing more than big bang fx.
Forcing cryptic to have their timeline work in St2009 in all of its gaping plothole glory.
Now the dynamic of the RSE up to that point is thrown out.The fans still want Romulans in -The game as you can tell from start was built on a 2 faction pvp model a third full faction Romulan was apparently not an option (though in tos/tng/ds9 it worked well and had great storylines from it) we get this bizarre Fed/Rom and Klingon/Rom mess and no one is fully happy.
Even the situation in Nemesis was a chance for new take again on Romulans post Shinzons Coup -Donatra was a a great potential that in the novels wasted and than RSE which for 2000 years or more survived and was a player in the interstellar politics collapses after one world is wiped out by the hobus whatever -In the "canon" comic according to the writers st2009 -The Romulans had notice of this event but did not evacuate the leadership from the homeworld leaving that to a mining ship that is the only ship in orbit in time -FFS My cat could write better.
Than Cryptic decide to take another established character Sela give her a title and now we have Romulans merging with borg and Hirogen its all a massive train wreck.
So the "Republic" is going to be the best option as there is nothing better. Still this is the only mmo/rpg where I can play a Romulan at all. I just wish they could allow the ds9 and nemesis uniform options.
Agreed, and this is to what it boils down eventually - we don't have other options and negotiation is pointless. We have to play what Cryptic came up with, and Cryptic, in my opinion, made countless "mistakes" when STO was designed. I would be hyped to see a TOS (not movie) set game with three factions, explorations, outposts and RvR mechanic. But well...
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