the ENT series existed to take a dump on Star Trek canon and slap us in the face with Scott Bakula's inability to do more than 3 facial expressions. The only time I enjoyed that series at all was the week they did in the mirror universe.
Yes, I see your point. I suspect it's because Romulans have never shown to regularily interact with other worlds all that much and their theme of subfertuge and stealth reinforces it further.
Well, we're only seeing Romulan actions from the Federation's viewpoint. We know that there were some off-and-on workings with the Klingons, the RSE was starting to do their own thing with the Dominion at first, they'd reached out at pre-Federation Andor and grabbed some Aenar to pilot their holo ships... But that's all in space that the Federation and their allies know of, or are actively watching.
The other side of the Beta Quadrant is a complete unknown to the Feds. No one but the Romulans (and potentially the Klingons, depending on the extent of their own far-space holdings) knows what's out there or who's been spoken to.
Both the Commander in "Balance of Terror" and Jarok in "Defector" make passing references to military campaigns that the Federation hasn't a clue about. Guaranteed these are taking place deep within Romulan borders, and to their Eastern border which is basically inaccessible to the Federation. The Star Trek Star Charts for instance shows the Federation's vantage point ending in the North-East of the known map, and Romulan space trails off into the same unknown areas. Just because the Federation hasn't or can't get out that far, nothing's saying that the Romulans haven't. All that unknown is, of course, on the Romulan 'corner' of the Beta.
It's also all but guaranteed that the Romulans aren't the only species in their space. Just taking on-screen canon into consideration, we obviously learned about the Remans in Nemesis, but there's also the Flaxian agent that the Tal'Shiar used in DS9 "Improbable Cause."
Funnily enough, the armor and weapons they gave the Alliance soldiers were reused props from the Starship Troopers films. Also, there's a strong similarity between the WWII Wehrmacht helmet and current United States military helmets (because it's a good design).
I'm referring to the battle in the pilot. Both the Browncoats and the Alliance troopers were wearing chain mail under their coats, and wearing American and German WWII helmets (respectively).
I don't know about anyone else, but I would rather play as a Romulan Faction and not the green team of the UFP and KDF. Between that split and the one scripted with the RSE, the Romulans as a whole are in a 3 way Civil War. I get so sick of not being able to team with a UFP allied Romulan, because technically we are all Romulan Republic. It makes even less sense in the endgame when all three factions are working together.
It would be better for all concerned if they changed the Romulan story so that there were 2 separate Romulan factions RR which is all chummy with the UFP since D'Tan is a unificationist, and the remnants of the RSE loyalists who are sick of Sela and join with the KDF to get rid of her and the Tal Shiar.
Or even better, Make RR its own individual faction and get rid of most of the Alliance TRIBBLE altogether. Yes I realize that causes some problems with faction unique gear. And yes I know they have reservations about the red vs blue pvp set up but let me just say that that is the price you pay when you develop a lazily written story which is trying to make a three faction game out of a 2 faction mechanic. It makes no sense at all, and the Romulans deserve better.
I do agree they need to make the RR a separate faction and the RSE those that pick to be with the EMpire a remanant to get ride of Sela and the Tal Shiar
only if I can shoot sela in the face like I did hakeev
I don't know about anyone else, but I would rather play as a Romulan Faction and not the green team of the UFP and KDF. Between that split and the one scripted with the RSE, the Romulans as a whole are in a 3 way Civil War. I get so sick of not being able to team with a UFP allied Romulan, because technically we are all Romulan Republic. It makes even less sense in the endgame when all three factions are working together.
It would be better for all concerned if they changed the Romulan story so that there were 2 separate Romulan factions RR which is all chummy with the UFP since D'Tan is a unificationist, and the remnants of the RSE loyalists who are sick of Sela and join with the KDF to get rid of her and the Tal Shiar.
Or even better, Make RR its own individual faction and get rid of most of the Alliance TRIBBLE altogether. Yes I realize that causes some problems with faction unique gear. And yes I know they have reservations about the red vs blue pvp set up but let me just say that that is the price you pay when you develop a lazily written story which is trying to make a three faction game out of a 2 faction mechanic. It makes no sense at all, and the Romulans deserve better.
So those allied with the KDF would be forced into a group of "RSE remnants?" No, thanks.
The RRF can be a faction in its own right and still maintain the alliances. The biggest "problem" with getting rid of the alliance system would not be faction-specific gear (although I'm not giving up my Koro't'inga with the D7 skin unless they give us a V-11 Stormbird Akif, and I'm not too happy with the idea of giving up my KHG ground set because that cloak is awesome) is the fleet mechanic. Loss of members back to their species-restricted factions would be bad enough, but If I were told I had to start over and build a whole new fleet, after getting as far as we have, the result would not be pretty (and to anyone who says "I wouldn't mind," I'll ask "Are you going to refill my bank account for all the real-world money I've spent to get Zen to sell for dil to dump into my fleets?"). However, I've already given Cryptic two two ways to facilitate full faction status for the RRF while allowing our membership to be inviolate and while not requiring us to start over from scratch (these both assume that the faction situation in STO would be otherwise unchanged):
1. fleet faction should be determined by whomever holds the top rank in the fleet (all of our fleets would then be safe because top rank in each of them is held by one of my RRF characters).
2. species should not be faction-bound; faction-unbound species would be whatever faction their fleet is part of, which latter would be determined as stated above (and for those who are not in a fleet, they would choose for themselves, but this would have to be a one-time-only thing, or else some twit would wind up abusing it).
I'll ask "Are you going to refill my bank account for all the real-world money I've spent to get Zen to sell for dil to dump into my fleets?"
as one of those who would toss my fed/kdf exclusive consoles and build a fleet from the ground up if it meant the republic(much as I dislike it) would become a full faction... I will ask, in counter, "Who was the fool to throw real life money at an optional game mechanic?" or, "Who forced you to spend RL cash on an optional thing you didn't need in game?" You can't even claim the "need" for fleet consoles or ships because plenty of fleets exist that facilitate players who need these things freely.
I'll ask "Are you going to refill my bank account for all the real-world money I've spent to get Zen to sell for dil to dump into my fleets?"
as one of those who would toss my fed/kdf exclusive consoles and build a fleet from the ground up if it meant the republic(much as I dislike it) would become a full faction... I will ask, in counter, "Who was the fool to throw real life money at an optional game mechanic?" or, "Who forced you to spend RL cash on an optional thing you didn't need in game?" You can't even claim the "need" for fleet consoles or ships because plenty of fleets exist that facilitate players who need these things freely.
It has nothing to do with fleet consoles or ships and everything to do with the fleet itself.
And, fwiw, that "free t5 starbase access for all" schtick isn't something I'm particularly fond of, for a variety of reasons. I won't go into them here, although you've seen one objection if you're still keeping up with the poll I started in General Discussion.
And, fwiw, that "free t5 starbase access for all" schtick isn't something I'm particularly fond of, for a variety of reasons. I won't go into them here, although you've seen one objection if you're still keeping up with the poll I started in General Discussion.
eh that group blows its own horn too loudly for me to trust them, but I also know a few fleets what will help random players just cause, no loud trumpeting of how generous they are, just helpin people with small/no fleet.
Wow love the discussion I joined this game way back for the Romulans. That was hard as I'm a massive Romulan Fan-Love the Diane Duane books-But this hate of TNG Romulans or they were a nasty phase the race were going through I cannot join in. The snippets we got in I think was it 14 episodes of TNG showed a culture of complexity. A people who would kill their own children than let them live with what they deemed an impairment (Face of the Enemy -Bochra amazed Geordi was allowed to live with being blind at birth) yet by same token they had no issue with a "Half Breed" of race (humans) they warred with (Sela) to rise to power on her merit.
We saw the Romulan camp commander give up his future to marry a Klingon and an Admiral risk everything to avoid war and defect. Face of the Enemy gave us Commander Toreth Loyal to the Empire and her Crew-but no love for the Tal Shiar -one dimensional dictatorships do not produce characters like this.
When the Romulans came into STO I was "confused" but accepted after the first JJ TRIBBLE that the STO guys had to work as best they could with the mess left.
The Republic is ok but I cannot accept that the RSE is some tiny remnant -just because we have to swallow that the homeworld of the RSE is wiped out by the silly star that means shows over the Empire is a wipe. An intelligent Warlike spacefaring race that has been warring with one of the biggest and baddest Warriors for 75 years prior to TNG and they collapse and all just go with the "New Republic" is rubbish, even harder to belive when their lifespans go into centuries.
I see this where a faction like the Republic could emerge -but I see a still powerful faction of the Empire.
I know this is late but love the discussion just had to type my piece:)
The problem is, the RSE was very centralized... with the loss of the home system the empire was kicked squarely in the nuts and then Klingons struck before anyone could really get their collective TRIBBLE back together. While in reality this likely wouldn't have really killed the RSE, we have Cryptic then add in that all Tal Shiar leaders are now magically the leaders of the Empire, and all of them are cartoonishly evil caricatures with a self-destructive streak. Adding an "Empress" who imports Hirogen to hunt her own people for sport in exchange for assistance taking her throne was just insult to injury, because the only thing Sela can do on her own is fail and not be executed.
Wow love the discussion I joined this game way back for the Romulans. That was hard as I'm a massive Romulan Fan-Love the Diane Duane books-But this hate of TNG Romulans or they were a nasty phase the race were going through I cannot join in. The snippets we got in I think was it 14 episodes of TNG showed a culture of complexity. A people who would kill their own children than let them live with what they deemed an impairment (Face of the Enemy -Bochra amazed Geordi was allowed to live with being blind at birth) yet by same token they had no issue with a "Half Breed" of race (humans) they warred with (Sela) to rise to power on her merit.
We saw the Romulan camp commander give up his future to marry a Klingon and an Admiral risk everything to avoid war and defect. Face of the Enemy gave us Commander Toreth Loyal to the Empire and her Crew-but no love for the Tal Shiar -one dimensional dictatorships do not produce characters like this.
When the Romulans came into STO I was "confused" but accepted after the first JJ TRIBBLE that the STO guys had to work as best they could with the mess left.
The Republic is ok but I cannot accept that the RSE is some tiny remnant -just because we have to swallow that the homeworld of the RSE is wiped out by the silly star that means shows over the Empire is a wipe. An intelligent Warlike spacefaring race that has been warring with one of the biggest and baddest Warriors for 75 years prior to TNG and they collapse and all just go with the "New Republic" is rubbish, even harder to belive when their lifespans go into centuries.
I see this where a faction like the Republic could emerge -but I see a still powerful faction of the Empire.
I know this is late but love the discussion just had to type my piece:)
The TNG RSE did not produce them; the TOS RSE did. Romulans live 200-250 years. The Tal'Shiar was established in 2344.
And the RSE is a tiny remnant now (in 2410), because they couldn't stop trying to pick fights with everyone in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants, and consistently got their behinds handed to them as a result.
I suggest you read back through the older threads in this forum (and not necro any more threads).
Wow love the discussion I joined this game way back for the Romulans. That was hard as I'm a massive Romulan Fan-Love the Diane Duane books-But this hate of TNG Romulans or they were a nasty phase the race were going through I cannot join in. The snippets we got in I think was it 14 episodes of TNG showed a culture of complexity.
...
There were some great characters in TNG for the Romulans. The way I see it, characters in the Rihannsu novels, and on-screen characters like Bochra, Jarok, Toreth, the unnamed captain in "The Chase" - they were all the ones struggling against some of the excesses of the Empire.
In particular in TNG, as Protogoth said the Tal'Shiar came around in 2344. To that point, a lot of the more complex Romulan characters were the ones trying to break free from that oppression. The Tal'Shiar did a lot of damage both externally and internally, and it meant that there was a lot of conflict on the inside.
The Empire itself was going to fail in some way, or be massively reformed. The Republic is as good an outcome as any, although I'd definitely like to see it expanded upon in Season 11 with the rest of the 'homefront' TLC.
Wow love the discussion I joined this game way back for the Romulans. That was hard as I'm a massive Romulan Fan-Love the Diane Duane books-But this hate of TNG Romulans or they were a nasty phase the race were going through I cannot join in. The snippets we got in I think was it 14 episodes of TNG showed a culture of complexity.
...
There were some great characters in TNG for the Romulans. The way I see it, characters in the Rihannsu novels, and on-screen characters like Bochra, Jarok, Toreth, the unnamed captain in "The Chase" - they were all the ones struggling against some of the excesses of the Empire.
In particular in TNG, as Protogoth said the Tal'Shiar came around in 2344. To that point, a lot of the more complex Romulan characters were the ones trying to break free from that oppression. The Tal'Shiar did a lot of damage both externally and internally, and it meant that there was a lot of conflict on the inside.
The Empire itself was going to fail in some way, or be massively reformed. The Republic is as good an outcome as any, although I'd definitely like to see it expanded upon in Season 11 with the rest of the 'homefront' TLC.
The "Far Stars": only accessible to RRF players and Fleets.
(...)
In particular in TNG, as Protogoth said the Tal'Shiar came around in 2344. (...)
As a canon-snob, I have to throw in:
"Objection: Speculation!"
There is no knowledge in official canon about the Tal Shiar at all, any date is derived from novel sources (nd as such unfortunately irrelevant). The Tal Shiar was first and the only time mentioned (in TNG) in either "Unification" or "Faces of the Enemy" and all other instances refer to "Romulan Intelligence", but the way I see it it is implied that they are the same as opposed to Section 31 which is clearly established as a illegal racist militia "rogue agency" not affiliated with either Federal Intlligence/Security nor Starfleet in any way (aside from having reactionist sympathisants in high places).
If we take novels into account, a ENT novel suggested the Tal Shiar was already around during Archer's time, so all of it is contradictonary.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
(...)
In particular in TNG, as Protogoth said the Tal'Shiar came around in 2344. (...)
As a canon-snob, I have to throw in:
"Objection: Speculation!"
There is no knowledge in official canon about the Tal Shiar at all, any date is derived from novel sources (nd as such unfortunately irrelevant). The Tal Shiar was first and the only time mentioned (in TNG) in either "Unification" or "Faces of the Enemy" and all other instances refer to "Romulan Intelligence", but the way I see it it is implied that they are the same as opposed to Section 31 which is clearly established as a illegal racist militia "rogue agency" not affiliated with either Federal Intlligence/Security nor Starfleet in any way (aside from having reactionist sympathisants in high places).
If we take novels into account, a ENT novel suggested the Tal Shiar was already around during Archer's time, so all of it is contradictonary.
The Tal'Shiar was established in 2344 by Praetor Devoras to replace the older, corrupt civilian intelligence service. It was formed as not only an intelligence agency, but also as a secret police force. It had already grown so corrupt by 2373, that Devoras himself was assassinated by the Tal'Shiar. While this is from a novel, the support for it is twofold: 1. it is the best explanation which is remotely official for how Romulan society mutated from the culture of honorable warriors who were "of a kind" with Humans and were willing to extend amnesty to the crew of a vessel which had violated the Stelai Ler'lloann (Rihan-Terrhain Neutral Zone) in TOS into a fascist police state by the beginning of TNG, and 2. if you want to have any meaningful background for Romulan RP in STO or any other Trek-based game, you cannot rely on hard canon alone, or else you will end up with a character who is rather undetailed, shallow, and underdeveloped.
When I researched and put together "Ahrir'fvahir mnean?" I had two goals: 1. to provide as complete a discussion of Romulan history and culture possible (a thing nobody had done before, mind you), and 2. to make this discussion consistent (a thing nobody seemed to care about before). As such, I had to reject some material; there is a nifty little thing known as "discernment," which allows a person to make choices, rather than take an "all-or-nothing" approach (a.k.a. "bifurcation fallacy"). Thus, to imply that venturing beyond hard canon necessitates self-referential incoherence and cognitive dissonance ("If we take novels into account, a ENT novel suggested the Tal Shiar was already around during Archer's time, so all of it is contradictonary.") is fallacious.
And if you're so bothered by contradiction, then I should point out that hard canon is filled with it. Thus, rejecting anything beyond hard canon on the assumption that "all of it" is contradictory means you need to take a long hard look at hard canon and smell the coffee. Continuity was, alas, seldom a concern in any single Trek series, let alone over the course of all the series and movies.
Finally, to refer to information from soft canon as "speculation" is to misunderstand the meaning of "speculation." Must I drag out the Mandy Patinkin / Inigo Montoya video clip again (as I have started doing when anyone makes the oft-repeated but seldom-examined claim that Romulan culture is "xenophobic," which claim, even going solely by hard canon, is tosh)?
There is no knowledge in official canon about the Tal Shiar at all, any date is derived from novel sources (nd as such unfortunately irrelevant).
...
There is so little on-screen canon of the Romulans, that any debate on them has to go into the expanded works. Heck, even STO borrowed heavily from Rihannsu series, right down to about three-quarters of the Republic ship names.
And D'Tan's name for New Romulus is "Mol'Rihan," which is based off of Rihannsu's name for Romulus, "ch'Rihan."
So if you're playing a Romulan in STO, get ready for a lot more "irrelevant" things.
While there is something to what all of you (Fleet members) say, and I actully like large parts of it, if people bring up canon you cannot answer with "Tal Shiar wasn't around until 2344" as this is not the case. I wouldn't object at all if the statement would be something akin to "according to the Rihannsu series" or similiar.
No matter how thorough Protogoth's research and remarkable work to tie the little canon there is together if the point of debate is canon you technically cannot treat this as fact. It is just your version of it so far and as interesting as it is, I said it before, I do not interpret some points the same way which means the point is at least debateable. Now, if STO/Cryptic would at some point say "The Rihannsu novels are the foundation for our games' Romulan lore" I wouldn't object as well. But STO gives no background about the Tal Shiar and canon doesn't as well. So there's only interpretation of facts and speculation (not a bad thing, mind you. It's not my intention to seem hostile or anything).
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
While there is something to what all of you (Fleet members) say, and I actully like large parts of it, if people bring up canon you cannot answer with "Tal Shiar wasn't around until 2344" as this is not the case. I wouldn't object at all if the statement would be something akin to "according to the Rihannsu series" or similiar.
No matter how thorough Protogoth's research and remarkable work to tie the little canon there is together if the point of debate is canon you technically cannot treat this as fact. It is just your version of it so far and as interesting as it is, I said it before, I do not interpret some points the same way which means the point is at least debateable. Now, if STO/Cryptic would at some point say "The Rihannsu novels are the foundation for our games' Romulan lore" I wouldn't object as well. But STO gives no background about the Tal Shiar and canon doesn't as well. So there's only interpretation of facts and speculation (not a bad thing, mind you. It's not my intention to seem hostile or anything).
The date and story of the founding of the Tal'Shiar is not from the Rihannsu saga. It is from the Vulcan's ___ saga, specifically, the novel Vulcan's Heart.
The main point of contention is not based on canon. It's based on a part of hard canon, which is inconsistent with another part of hard canon. To accept both uncritically and without seeking for some explanation of the inconsistency is irrational, and it seems that, all too often, the original portrayal is dismissed entirely, or ignored, or considered inferior, when many of us who were around in the era when TOS (and a little later, TAS) was the ONLY Trek are likely to see it the other way around (that is, we are likely to regard the TNG RSE as a perversion of, and inferior to, the original presentation, but as I advised commandersalvek, reading more of the past discussions here in this forum will reveal that we are far from unaware of the exceptions in TNG and the later series, people like Alidar tr'Jarok, Doctor Telek tr'R'Mor, and others, whom we take as evidence that the situation in the RSE had changed rather recently). The only remotely official explanation for the inconsistency is from soft canon. You may choose to ignore that, but then you are left to engage in what will be actual speculation in order to harmonize the inconsistencies on your own. When I take from soft canon, I am not speculating. This is why I referenced Mandy Patinkin/Inigo Montoya. You're misusing the word "speculation."
STO most certainly does take the Rihannsu saga as inspiration. This is not debatable, unless you are completely unfamiliar with the Rihannsu saga.
Maybe terminology is a bit confusing and I like to clarify that. You use "hard canon" and "soft canon" and maybe mixing up terms in the process. In Star Trek there is only canon and, well, non-canon. Canon are all shows and movies (including TAS). Everything else is not canon whih is why I find the term "soft canon" to be misleading as it suggests some influence on canon material. The only ambivalent sources are the reference works that are derived from actual production material (Technical manuals, specifically) - they aren't canon, by definition, and accepting them as 'apocryphal' is up to everyone to decide, I personally do as long as the information is not outruled by canon appearance.
I think there is also a term "fanon" - this is basically what you are providing. It is your interpretation of the material based on a number of sources and no matter how well reasoned and well written, it's "just" that. That's just the reason for my objection in the fist place as a simple remark pointing at that instead of treating it as actual "fact" would be sufficient
This is what I call speculation, as we agree that canon does not provide the required background, it doesn't exist. And the only way to connect the dots is to speculate about it - even if it is based on licensed material, for the actual show canon that doesn't advance the picture.
The inconsistency you speak of is also subjective in nature as I pointed out earlier. I don't see one - the behaviour portrayed in TOS and TNG about Romulans is largely the same, albeit displayed with a different sense of fashion . but I don't want to deril the thread - although it may be I already wrote about that some pages ago or in a different thread.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Ive said it before, elsewhere, but arguing canon about Star Trek is kinda weird, given the show tended to rewrite its own canon every week... and then there was ENT, trolling everything canon each episode.
Ive said it before, elsewhere, but arguing canon about Star Trek is kinda weird, given the show tended to rewrite its own canon every week... and then there was ENT, trolling everything canon each episode.
Personally, I find it rather odd that anyone would deny the inconsistencies. Perhaps they have confused "Trek canon" with "biblical canon," although even that is somewhat hazy in terms of its limits, depending on who is referring to it. And frankly, the denial of the existence of soft canon may be CBS-approved, but it's not Trekker-approved, as I've pointed out before. So yeah, Pope CBS and Cardinal Paramount can issue all the Bulls and Edicts they want, and the faithful are still going to embrace things outside the Pale, as we always have done, even when it was NBC/Paramount and later Paramount/Viacom instead of CBS/Paramount.
But that does shed some light on the claim Star Trek canon is difficult to discuss - when we just ignore the official definition of canon and just call everything we like canon I understand the confusion so many people have
I understand where you are coming from, Protogoth. I didn't grow up with TOS but with TNG when times already were different. And today there are people who grew up with ENT of all shows. I witnessed in terror and disbelief how the Borg, for example, were completely rewritten and butchered - but I cannot discuss the canon of this change away - I can just add a remark I don't like it and my headcanon/fanon how I make it work (since the change directly contradicts original canon, one of the instances you mentioned). But that doesn't change the fact that when I engage in a discussion about canon the CBS canon definition is the present common denominator to the discussion.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Star Trek had plenty of inconsistencies. I didn't feel the need to read the soft canon novels to justify them. I just regarded them for what they were. There's no shame in liking Star Trek despite the shows and movies not making any sense. I'm not sure why people have this compulsive need to justify why an imperfect story made by a team who were just there to get a paycheck needs to be flawlessly interwoven with apocrypha.
I think Star Trek Online is big enough to accomodate people who like soft canon and people who don't.
Star Trek had plenty of inconsistencies. I didn't feel the need to read the soft canon novels to justify them. I just regarded them for what they were. There's no shame in liking Star Trek despite the shows and movies not making any sense. I'm not sure why people have this compulsive need to justify why an imperfect story made by a team who were just there to get a paycheck needs to be flawlessly interwoven with apocrypha.
I think Star Trek Online is big enough to accomodate people who like soft canon and people who don't.
Because Babylon 5 showed them that real sci-fi space operas can kick so much TRIBBLE AND be consistent AND have characters with depth and growth... if ya look at Star Trek after that.... it shows how shallow and terrible the writing was very blatantly, and people want to rally to defend their preferred franchise... look how rabid Star Trek vs Star Wars was for so very long.
On the subject of book canonicity, as I have pointed out before- The later date of the Tal Shiar's founding was retconed by a later book into existing roughly as far back as the Enterprise shows. Likewise, the 'Rihannsu' novels are officially set in an "alternate Star Trek universe" according to their publisher, which is something Ms Duane was completely aware of and took full advantage of the liberty it gave her-she herself doesn't expect and didn't really intend for her work to become full canon.
Touting examples from Vulcan Soul or Rihannsu as Star Trek Fact is....misguided IMO. According to other Trek sources around the same level of canon, by this point in the timeline: The Borg are extinct, Sela committed suicide more than two decades ago, Janeway is also dead, and we are a bit overdue for something called the 'Typhon Pact'.
Games, books etc are obligated to follow what's set down by the movies and shows rather closely, but are under no obligation to treat other games or books the same courtesy. So just because something happened in one game/book (stand-alone or series) does not mean it holds true for everything, particularly in regards to the movies & shows.
"Some people have the idea that my work is somehow being slighted, or that I'm being done some kind of wrong, by the filmed version of Trek not taking my stuff into account. While I take their concern for me very kindly, I still think the idea is fallacious." -Diane Duane
o.O oh I better get a BIG ol batch of popcorn ready for proto's response to THAT
To the author stting herself that her work is not canon? You can hardly argue with that but Protogoth doesn't really have to (if she wants to it's something different) at least about the point I was trying to make. I understand very well what she did with the lore and I am. as I said before, impressed by it and enjoyed the read. I was simply pointing out - especially in case people join the discussion that are not all that familiar wth Trek lore - a minor remark that references to the lore compilation she did are an interpretation / piece of "fanon" ( since licensed works are also just officially promoted fan fiction - it sounds stupid, but I don't mean it disrepsectful in the slightest. That's just the term used for that, I think).
The only canon you get is collected on Memory Alpha (ecause every pice of information there *should* come with a episode/movie citation). Talking beyond that is very interesting and part of what makes hanging around Trek forums so great but shouldn't be treated as "fact" because it leaves the plain of "common knowledge" that is collected canon.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
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"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Comments
Well, we're only seeing Romulan actions from the Federation's viewpoint. We know that there were some off-and-on workings with the Klingons, the RSE was starting to do their own thing with the Dominion at first, they'd reached out at pre-Federation Andor and grabbed some Aenar to pilot their holo ships... But that's all in space that the Federation and their allies know of, or are actively watching.
The other side of the Beta Quadrant is a complete unknown to the Feds. No one but the Romulans (and potentially the Klingons, depending on the extent of their own far-space holdings) knows what's out there or who's been spoken to.
Both the Commander in "Balance of Terror" and Jarok in "Defector" make passing references to military campaigns that the Federation hasn't a clue about. Guaranteed these are taking place deep within Romulan borders, and to their Eastern border which is basically inaccessible to the Federation. The Star Trek Star Charts for instance shows the Federation's vantage point ending in the North-East of the known map, and Romulan space trails off into the same unknown areas. Just because the Federation hasn't or can't get out that far, nothing's saying that the Romulans haven't. All that unknown is, of course, on the Romulan 'corner' of the Beta.
It's also all but guaranteed that the Romulans aren't the only species in their space. Just taking on-screen canon into consideration, we obviously learned about the Remans in Nemesis, but there's also the Flaxian agent that the Tal'Shiar used in DS9 "Improbable Cause."
I'm referring to the battle in the pilot. Both the Browncoats and the Alliance troopers were wearing chain mail under their coats, and wearing American and German WWII helmets (respectively).
It would be better for all concerned if they changed the Romulan story so that there were 2 separate Romulan factions RR which is all chummy with the UFP since D'Tan is a unificationist, and the remnants of the RSE loyalists who are sick of Sela and join with the KDF to get rid of her and the Tal Shiar.
Or even better, Make RR its own individual faction and get rid of most of the Alliance TRIBBLE altogether. Yes I realize that causes some problems with faction unique gear. And yes I know they have reservations about the red vs blue pvp set up but let me just say that that is the price you pay when you develop a lazily written story which is trying to make a three faction game out of a 2 faction mechanic. It makes no sense at all, and the Romulans deserve better.
only if I can shoot sela in the face like I did hakeev
So those allied with the KDF would be forced into a group of "RSE remnants?" No, thanks.
The RRF can be a faction in its own right and still maintain the alliances. The biggest "problem" with getting rid of the alliance system would not be faction-specific gear (although I'm not giving up my Koro't'inga with the D7 skin unless they give us a V-11 Stormbird Akif, and I'm not too happy with the idea of giving up my KHG ground set because that cloak is awesome) is the fleet mechanic. Loss of members back to their species-restricted factions would be bad enough, but If I were told I had to start over and build a whole new fleet, after getting as far as we have, the result would not be pretty (and to anyone who says "I wouldn't mind," I'll ask "Are you going to refill my bank account for all the real-world money I've spent to get Zen to sell for dil to dump into my fleets?"). However, I've already given Cryptic two two ways to facilitate full faction status for the RRF while allowing our membership to be inviolate and while not requiring us to start over from scratch (these both assume that the faction situation in STO would be otherwise unchanged):
1. fleet faction should be determined by whomever holds the top rank in the fleet (all of our fleets would then be safe because top rank in each of them is held by one of my RRF characters).
2. species should not be faction-bound; faction-unbound species would be whatever faction their fleet is part of, which latter would be determined as stated above (and for those who are not in a fleet, they would choose for themselves, but this would have to be a one-time-only thing, or else some twit would wind up abusing it).
It has nothing to do with fleet consoles or ships and everything to do with the fleet itself.
And, fwiw, that "free t5 starbase access for all" schtick isn't something I'm particularly fond of, for a variety of reasons. I won't go into them here, although you've seen one objection if you're still keeping up with the poll I started in General Discussion.
eh that group blows its own horn too loudly for me to trust them, but I also know a few fleets what will help random players just cause, no loud trumpeting of how generous they are, just helpin people with small/no fleet.
We saw the Romulan camp commander give up his future to marry a Klingon and an Admiral risk everything to avoid war and defect. Face of the Enemy gave us Commander Toreth Loyal to the Empire and her Crew-but no love for the Tal Shiar -one dimensional dictatorships do not produce characters like this.
When the Romulans came into STO I was "confused" but accepted after the first JJ TRIBBLE that the STO guys had to work as best they could with the mess left.
The Republic is ok but I cannot accept that the RSE is some tiny remnant -just because we have to swallow that the homeworld of the RSE is wiped out by the silly star that means shows over the Empire is a wipe. An intelligent Warlike spacefaring race that has been warring with one of the biggest and baddest Warriors for 75 years prior to TNG and they collapse and all just go with the "New Republic" is rubbish, even harder to belive when their lifespans go into centuries.
I see this where a faction like the Republic could emerge -but I see a still powerful faction of the Empire.
I know this is late but love the discussion just had to type my piece:)
The TNG RSE did not produce them; the TOS RSE did. Romulans live 200-250 years. The Tal'Shiar was established in 2344.
And the RSE is a tiny remnant now (in 2410), because they couldn't stop trying to pick fights with everyone in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants, and consistently got their behinds handed to them as a result.
I suggest you read back through the older threads in this forum (and not necro any more threads).
There were some great characters in TNG for the Romulans. The way I see it, characters in the Rihannsu novels, and on-screen characters like Bochra, Jarok, Toreth, the unnamed captain in "The Chase" - they were all the ones struggling against some of the excesses of the Empire.
In particular in TNG, as Protogoth said the Tal'Shiar came around in 2344. To that point, a lot of the more complex Romulan characters were the ones trying to break free from that oppression. The Tal'Shiar did a lot of damage both externally and internally, and it meant that there was a lot of conflict on the inside.
The Empire itself was going to fail in some way, or be massively reformed. The Republic is as good an outcome as any, although I'd definitely like to see it expanded upon in Season 11 with the rest of the 'homefront' TLC.
The "Far Stars": only accessible to RRF players and Fleets.
Tal'Shiar/Reman Resistance/Romulan Nemesis uniform, pls.
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As a canon-snob, I have to throw in:
"Objection: Speculation!"
There is no knowledge in official canon about the Tal Shiar at all, any date is derived from novel sources (nd as such unfortunately irrelevant). The Tal Shiar was first and the only time mentioned (in TNG) in either "Unification" or "Faces of the Enemy" and all other instances refer to "Romulan Intelligence", but the way I see it it is implied that they are the same as opposed to Section 31 which is clearly established as a illegal racist militia "rogue agency" not affiliated with either Federal Intlligence/Security nor Starfleet in any way (aside from having reactionist sympathisants in high places).
If we take novels into account, a ENT novel suggested the Tal Shiar was already around during Archer's time, so all of it is contradictonary.
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The Tal'Shiar was established in 2344 by Praetor Devoras to replace the older, corrupt civilian intelligence service. It was formed as not only an intelligence agency, but also as a secret police force. It had already grown so corrupt by 2373, that Devoras himself was assassinated by the Tal'Shiar. While this is from a novel, the support for it is twofold: 1. it is the best explanation which is remotely official for how Romulan society mutated from the culture of honorable warriors who were "of a kind" with Humans and were willing to extend amnesty to the crew of a vessel which had violated the Stelai Ler'lloann (Rihan-Terrhain Neutral Zone) in TOS into a fascist police state by the beginning of TNG, and 2. if you want to have any meaningful background for Romulan RP in STO or any other Trek-based game, you cannot rely on hard canon alone, or else you will end up with a character who is rather undetailed, shallow, and underdeveloped.
When I researched and put together "Ahrir'fvahir mnean?" I had two goals: 1. to provide as complete a discussion of Romulan history and culture possible (a thing nobody had done before, mind you), and 2. to make this discussion consistent (a thing nobody seemed to care about before). As such, I had to reject some material; there is a nifty little thing known as "discernment," which allows a person to make choices, rather than take an "all-or-nothing" approach (a.k.a. "bifurcation fallacy"). Thus, to imply that venturing beyond hard canon necessitates self-referential incoherence and cognitive dissonance ("If we take novels into account, a ENT novel suggested the Tal Shiar was already around during Archer's time, so all of it is contradictonary.") is fallacious.
And if you're so bothered by contradiction, then I should point out that hard canon is filled with it. Thus, rejecting anything beyond hard canon on the assumption that "all of it" is contradictory means you need to take a long hard look at hard canon and smell the coffee. Continuity was, alas, seldom a concern in any single Trek series, let alone over the course of all the series and movies.
Finally, to refer to information from soft canon as "speculation" is to misunderstand the meaning of "speculation." Must I drag out the Mandy Patinkin / Inigo Montoya video clip again (as I have started doing when anyone makes the oft-repeated but seldom-examined claim that Romulan culture is "xenophobic," which claim, even going solely by hard canon, is tosh)?
There is so little on-screen canon of the Romulans, that any debate on them has to go into the expanded works. Heck, even STO borrowed heavily from Rihannsu series, right down to about three-quarters of the Republic ship names.
And D'Tan's name for New Romulus is "Mol'Rihan," which is based off of Rihannsu's name for Romulus, "ch'Rihan."
So if you're playing a Romulan in STO, get ready for a lot more "irrelevant" things.
No matter how thorough Protogoth's research and remarkable work to tie the little canon there is together if the point of debate is canon you technically cannot treat this as fact. It is just your version of it so far and as interesting as it is, I said it before, I do not interpret some points the same way which means the point is at least debateable. Now, if STO/Cryptic would at some point say "The Rihannsu novels are the foundation for our games' Romulan lore" I wouldn't object as well. But STO gives no background about the Tal Shiar and canon doesn't as well. So there's only interpretation of facts and speculation (not a bad thing, mind you. It's not my intention to seem hostile or anything).
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The date and story of the founding of the Tal'Shiar is not from the Rihannsu saga. It is from the Vulcan's ___ saga, specifically, the novel Vulcan's Heart.
The main point of contention is not based on canon. It's based on a part of hard canon, which is inconsistent with another part of hard canon. To accept both uncritically and without seeking for some explanation of the inconsistency is irrational, and it seems that, all too often, the original portrayal is dismissed entirely, or ignored, or considered inferior, when many of us who were around in the era when TOS (and a little later, TAS) was the ONLY Trek are likely to see it the other way around (that is, we are likely to regard the TNG RSE as a perversion of, and inferior to, the original presentation, but as I advised commandersalvek, reading more of the past discussions here in this forum will reveal that we are far from unaware of the exceptions in TNG and the later series, people like Alidar tr'Jarok, Doctor Telek tr'R'Mor, and others, whom we take as evidence that the situation in the RSE had changed rather recently). The only remotely official explanation for the inconsistency is from soft canon. You may choose to ignore that, but then you are left to engage in what will be actual speculation in order to harmonize the inconsistencies on your own. When I take from soft canon, I am not speculating. This is why I referenced Mandy Patinkin/Inigo Montoya. You're misusing the word "speculation."
STO most certainly does take the Rihannsu saga as inspiration. This is not debatable, unless you are completely unfamiliar with the Rihannsu saga.
I think there is also a term "fanon" - this is basically what you are providing. It is your interpretation of the material based on a number of sources and no matter how well reasoned and well written, it's "just" that. That's just the reason for my objection in the fist place as a simple remark pointing at that instead of treating it as actual "fact" would be sufficient
This is what I call speculation, as we agree that canon does not provide the required background, it doesn't exist. And the only way to connect the dots is to speculate about it - even if it is based on licensed material, for the actual show canon that doesn't advance the picture.
The inconsistency you speak of is also subjective in nature as I pointed out earlier. I don't see one - the behaviour portrayed in TOS and TNG about Romulans is largely the same, albeit displayed with a different sense of fashion
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Personally, I find it rather odd that anyone would deny the inconsistencies. Perhaps they have confused "Trek canon" with "biblical canon," although even that is somewhat hazy in terms of its limits, depending on who is referring to it. And frankly, the denial of the existence of soft canon may be CBS-approved, but it's not Trekker-approved, as I've pointed out before. So yeah, Pope CBS and Cardinal Paramount can issue all the Bulls and Edicts they want, and the faithful are still going to embrace things outside the Pale, as we always have done, even when it was NBC/Paramount and later Paramount/Viacom instead of CBS/Paramount.
I understand where you are coming from, Protogoth. I didn't grow up with TOS but with TNG when times already were different. And today there are people who grew up with ENT of all shows. I witnessed in terror and disbelief how the Borg, for example, were completely rewritten and butchered - but I cannot discuss the canon of this change away - I can just add a remark I don't like it and my headcanon/fanon how I make it work (since the change directly contradicts original canon, one of the instances you mentioned). But that doesn't change the fact that when I engage in a discussion about canon the CBS canon definition is the present common denominator to the discussion.
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I think Star Trek Online is big enough to accomodate people who like soft canon and people who don't.
Because Babylon 5 showed them that real sci-fi space operas can kick so much TRIBBLE AND be consistent AND have characters with depth and growth... if ya look at Star Trek after that.... it shows how shallow and terrible the writing was very blatantly, and people want to rally to defend their preferred franchise... look how rabid Star Trek vs Star Wars was for so very long.
Touting examples from Vulcan Soul or Rihannsu as Star Trek Fact is....misguided IMO. According to other Trek sources around the same level of canon, by this point in the timeline: The Borg are extinct, Sela committed suicide more than two decades ago, Janeway is also dead, and we are a bit overdue for something called the 'Typhon Pact'.
Games, books etc are obligated to follow what's set down by the movies and shows rather closely, but are under no obligation to treat other games or books the same courtesy. So just because something happened in one game/book (stand-alone or series) does not mean it holds true for everything, particularly in regards to the movies & shows.
"Some people have the idea that my work is somehow being slighted, or that I'm being done some kind of wrong, by the filmed version of Trek not taking my stuff into account. While I take their concern for me very kindly, I still think the idea is fallacious." -Diane Duane
To the author stting herself that her work is not canon? You can hardly argue with that
The only canon you get is collected on Memory Alpha (ecause every pice of information there *should* come with a episode/movie citation). Talking beyond that is very interesting and part of what makes hanging around Trek forums so great but shouldn't be treated as "fact" because it leaves the plain of "common knowledge" that is collected canon.
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