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from tribble patch notes: [DMG] gets a buff

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  • ryugasiriusryugasirius Member Posts: 283 Arc User
    cassiusdio wrote: »
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    orionburst wrote: »
    Makes me wonder if crtdx2, dmgx2 or crtd3, dmg will be the new optimum as increasing the damage would, I presume, increase the crit damage as dmg is now counted as a buff multiplier​​
    It depends on your crit chance. At 25% and less crit chance the new dmg works out best.

    Would you be so kind and share the math behind this hypothesis?

    I think statements like this are really hard since the buffs play a crucial role now...

    Uh, if I understand how STO maths work (and I pretty much don't):

    CrtD adds 20% base damage to crits only.
    Dmg adds 3% cumulative damage to all hits.

    If we suppose a low amount of buffs (i.e. just the modifier itself), with roughly 6% crit chance Dmg equals CrtD, because, if we suppose 100 base damage:

    170 damage 6% of the time, 100 damage 94% of the time, avg is 104,2

    Of course, 100 base damage with 3% dmg modifier is still 103, but everyone has a 2,5% base crit (for 154,5 damage) so it gets up to 104,28

    In this very simple case, anyone with 6% crit or less should pick Dmg, over 6% crit should pick CrtD.

    Of course, things get far more complicated with buff synergy and how multipliers work and hundreds of different buffs and tiers. And that's where I completely lose it.
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  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 3,729 Arc User
    cassiusdio wrote: »
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    orionburst wrote: »
    Makes me wonder if crtdx2, dmgx2 or crtd3, dmg will be the new optimum as increasing the damage would, I presume, increase the crit damage as dmg is now counted as a buff multiplier​​
    It depends on your crit chance. At 25% and less crit chance the new dmg works out best.

    Would you be so kind and share the math behind this hypothesis?

    I think statements like this are really hard since the buffs play a crucial role now...
    A single DMG gives me 6.5% boost to total damage (single weapon) due to being at the end of the stack. So every single none crit shot is boosted by 6.5% and crit severity damage is also boosted as crit severity is running off a higher base number.

    At 25% crit chance that’s 1 crit in 4 shots so 20% crit serv is 5% damage added per shot averaged out.

    DMG gives 6.5% to 100% of shots and 6.5% to crit severity 1 in 4 shots which is a lot higher then the 5% damage added per shot from 20% crit severity. Unless I made a mistake the DMG ends up being much higher damage most of the time.

  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 3,729 Arc User
    dakkalvar1 wrote: »
    It is more of a bonus for starting players. The synergy of stacking crit and critd is geometric.
    Doesn't DMG has a direct impact and synergy with stacking crit and critd that advanced players should be aware off. DMG is no longer a bonus for starting players its something advanced players should be looking at.

  • questeriusquesterius Member Posts: 7,823 Arc User
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    dakkalvar1 wrote: »
    It is more of a bonus for starting players. The synergy of stacking crit and critd is geometric.
    Doesn't DMG has a direct impact and synergy with stacking crit and critd that advanced players should be aware off. DMG is no longer a bonus for starting players its something advanced players should be looking at.

    No, accuracy has an overflow that influences critical ratio but DMG doesn't have that feature.
    Dmg will be receiving a boost shortly according to tribble notes.

    ​​
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  • kozar2kozar2 Member Posts: 602 Arc User
    They are in essence making a bunch of consoles useful. You'll either build as we do now for crtd or you'll go the damage route and use all of those consoles that boost weapon damage that are generally ignored. Lower spike but higher regular output. It will take away the need for lobi consoles.
  • berginsbergins Member Posts: 3,448 Arc User
    dakkalvar1 wrote: »
    It is more of a bonus for starting players. The synergy of stacking crit and critd is geometric.

    Geometric? Like rectangular? Or triangular?

    Or perhaps you mean exponential?

    Honestly, I'm not going to take advice based on calculations made by someone who doesn't know the difference.
    "Logic is a little tweeting bird chirping in a meadow. Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell BAD." - Spock
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 3,729 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    questerius wrote: »
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    dakkalvar1 wrote: »
    It is more of a bonus for starting players. The synergy of stacking crit and critd is geometric.
    Doesn't DMG has a direct impact and synergy with stacking crit and critd that advanced players should be aware off. DMG is no longer a bonus for starting players its something advanced players should be looking at.

    No, accuracy has an overflow that influences critical ratio but DMG doesn't have that feature.
    Dmg will be receiving a boost shortly according to tribble notes.

    ​​
    So you are saying boosting damage has zero impact on crit damage? Really are you sure that's right! I am pretty sure boosting damage does in fact boost crit damage. Has anyone tested?
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,958 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    bergins wrote: »
    dakkalvar1 wrote: »
    It is more of a bonus for starting players. The synergy of stacking crit and critd is geometric.

    Geometric? Like rectangular? Or triangular?

    Or perhaps you mean exponential?

    Honestly, I'm not going to take advice based on calculations made by someone who doesn't know the difference.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exponential_growth
    Exponential growth occurs when the growth rate of the value of a mathematical function is proportional to the function's current value. Exponential decay occurs in the same way when the growth rate is negative. In the case of a discrete domain of definition with equal intervals, it is also called geometric growth or geometric decay (the function values form a geometric progression).

    It maybe used wrongly if we don't have a discrete domain, but.. strictly speaking, all numbers handled by a computers must be discrete since we have no other way to represent numbers in them. But I am not sure the equal-intervals requirement holds, since floating point numbers have a precision dependent on the exponent, meaning higher numbers have less precision than lower numbers.

    But of course, that's not the only aspect that could make the numbers discrete - for example, the CritD and CritH mods represent discrete values.​​
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  • durenasdurenas Member Posts: 108 Arc User
    cassiusdio wrote: »
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    orionburst wrote: »
    Makes me wonder if crtdx2, dmgx2 or crtd3, dmg will be the new optimum as increasing the damage would, I presume, increase the crit damage as dmg is now counted as a buff multiplier
    It depends on your crit chance. At 25% and less crit chance the new dmg works out best.

    Would you be so kind and share the math behind this hypothesis?

    I think statements like this are really hard since the buffs play a crucial role now...

    Uh, if I understand how STO maths work (and I pretty much don't):

    CrtD adds 20% base damage to crits only.
    Dmg adds 3% cumulative damage to all hits.

    If we suppose a low amount of buffs (i.e. just the modifier itself), with roughly 6% crit chance Dmg equals CrtD, because, if we suppose 100 base damage:

    170 damage 6% of the time, 100 damage 94% of the time, avg is 104,2

    Of course, 100 base damage with 3% dmg modifier is still 103, but everyone has a 2,5% base crit (for 154,5 damage) so it gets up to 104,28

    In this very simple case, anyone with 6% crit or less should pick Dmg, over 6% crit should pick CrtD.

    Of course, things get far more complicated with buff synergy and how multipliers work and hundreds of different buffs and tiers. And that's where I completely lose it.

    The value of any new addition of crtH or crtD is dependent on the values of crtH and crtD beforehand. The more crtH you have, the more valuable crtD becomes, and vice versa. But, if you singlemindedly stack on crtD while neglecting crtH, you will eventually hit a slight diminishing returns on crtD vs crtH. Optimally, you want to balance gains in crtH and crtD such that your final values are 1:10 crtH:crtD.​​
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,223 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    I think statements like this are really hard since the buffs play a crucial role now...
    A single DMG gives me 6.5% boost to total damage (single weapon) due to being at the end of the stack. So every single none crit shot is boosted by 6.5% and crit severity damage is also boosted as crit severity is running off a higher base number.

    At 25% crit chance that’s 1 crit in 4 shots so 20% crit serv is 5% damage added per shot averaged out.

    DMG gives 6.5% to 100% of shots and 6.5% to crit severity 1 in 4 shots which is a lot higher then the 5% damage added per shot from 20% crit severity. Unless I made a mistake the DMG ends up being much higher damage most of the time.

    Thx for info there.

    Well I’d consider a crit rate of 25% on fed/kdf toon as good to high. 30%-35% more likely Romulan.

    Now those figures you give there at 25% are pretty tough and would make the DMG mod adjustments a “game changer” directly opposed to what the Dev earlier said.

    Players heavily grinded and/or paid money (or nerves because of this miserable crafting system) in this game to get the mods they desire after sticking their heads into the game’s broken mechanics.

    Opposed to my earlier statement in this thread this could become quiet a hit in the face for a lot of people.

    Last hit in the face was 10 moths ago when instead of rarity upgrading or old guns because of the random mod stuff we were forced to get completely new ones when striving for best available.

    I’m not sure how many peeps will take another hit if the Devs aren’t careful on this.

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  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,204 Arc User
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    I think statements like this are really hard since the buffs play a crucial role now...
    A single DMG gives me 6.5% boost to total damage (single weapon) due to being at the end of the stack. So every single none crit shot is boosted by 6.5% and crit severity damage is also boosted as crit severity is running off a higher base number.

    At 25% crit chance that’s 1 crit in 4 shots so 20% crit serv is 5% damage added per shot averaged out.

    DMG gives 6.5% to 100% of shots and 6.5% to crit severity 1 in 4 shots which is a lot higher then the 5% damage added per shot from 20% crit severity. Unless I made a mistake the DMG ends up being much higher damage most of the time.

    Thx for info there.

    Well I’d consider a crit rate of 25% on fed/kdf toon as good to high. 30%-35% more likely Romulan.

    Now those figures you give there at 25% are pretty tough and would make the DMG mod adjustments a “game changer” directly opposed to what the Dev earlier said.

    Players heavily grinded and/or paid money (or nerves because of this miserable crafting system) in this game to get the mods they desire after sticking their heads into the game’s broken mechanics.

    Opposed to my earlier statement in this thread this could become quiet a hit in the face for a lot of people.

    Last hit in the face was 10 moths ago when instead of rarity upgrading or old guns because of the random mod stuff we were forced to get completely new ones when striving for best available.

    I’m not sure how many peeps will take another hit if the Devs aren’t careful on this.

    If guys got rid of their old weapons because of that 1-2 [Dmg] mod and the changes really make them great, then I have no sympathy.

    If you held onto that old stuff and the changes make them worthwhile, then congrats. I know there's a bunch of Advanced/Elite Fleet Weapon owners still clinging to that stuff. I never got rid of my Elite Fleet Disruptors and still used them despite the meta favoring other things entirely.
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  • shandypandyshandypandy Member Posts: 632 Arc User
    https://www.reddit.com/r/sto/comments/3cmv7u/the_show_trek_wednesday_continuum_armadas_and/csxo45d
    [–]Borticus-CrypticKurland here! 4 points 5 days ago
    At one point, ya'll were going over these comments from me:
    In other words, having two [Dmg] mods that each add 3% damage actually means that the first is 3% and the second is 3.09%. And a third would be 3.1827%. Etc.
    ... and I'm pretty certain they were misunderstood. So, let me restate with additional clarification. (At the risk of also adding additional confusion.)
    1st Dmg Mod = 3.00%
    2nd Dmg Mod = 3.09% (3 * 1.03)
    If you have two Dmg Mods, that's a total of +6.09%
    3rd Dmg Mod = 3.1827% (3 * 1.03 * 1.03)
    If you have three Dmg Mods, that's a total of +9.2727%
    The [Ac/Dmg] Epic Mod is actually twice as effective as a standard Dmg mod, so will count as a 6% increase on its own. However, if applied to a [Dmg]x3 Weapon, that will be the fourth sequential mod and will be calculated as:
    [Ac/Dmg] Mod = 6.556362% (6 * 1.03 * 1.03 * 1.03)
    In other words, the total +Dmg increase on an Epic [Dmg]x3 [Ac/Dmg] weapon will be +15.829062%
    [–]Borticus-CrypticKurland here! 5 points 5 days ago
    Doh, forgot about UR.
    4th Dmg Mod = 3.278181% (3 *1.03 * 1.03 * 1.03)
    For a total of: 3 + 3.09 + 3.184 + 3.278 = +12.552%
    Epic [Ac/Dmg] Mod = 6.753% (6 * 1.03 * 1.03 * 1.03 * 1.03)
    For a grand total of: 3 + 3.09 + 3.184 + 3.278 + 6.753 = +19.305%
    So, slightly different rounding, but your figures are correct.

    So a [Crtd]x2 [Dmg] [Pen] [Ac/Dmg] will get 9% damage increase at the end of the damage calculation, which to me seems pretty tasty.​​
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  • eighrichteeighrichte Member Posts: 338 Arc User
    Am I understanding correctly that if I have two consoles providing +25% and +10% crit severity, my total crit damage is 185% of a normal hit?
  • shandypandyshandypandy Member Posts: 632 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    eighrichte wrote: »
    Am I understanding correctly that if I have two consoles providing +25% and +10% crit severity, my total crit damage is 185% of a normal hit?

    edited/ Misread your post, yeah, if you have nowt else you'll have 85% of the damage added to the original hit.

    ​​
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  • keravnioskeravnios Member Posts: 142 Arc User
    So CrtDx4 Ac/Dmg Antiproton weaponry will now have a 106% CrtD bonus and 6% non crit bonus just from the weaponry? Does the dmg mod buff the total CritD of the ship + weapon or just weapon? This Dmg mod wont help those who can't buff themselves up but the Tac dpsers mostly who can do 200% boosts and more.. Just checked my buffs and my average Dmg boost without gdf is 166.1%, add to that 119.4% CritD without weapons so the Epic mod will add just to that and make it 285.5*1.06=302.63. Am I right?
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