To be clear, I did not stop giving them money because new ships were $30, I stopped giving them money because they obsoleted everything that I had already given them money for prior in an attempt to make me spend $30 on reskins of the same ships. They did not provide an upgrade price, just a FU price, that is the problem.
If you have the time, a FTP account can have 3000 zen in 22 days if you refine 8.5k per char per day. That is at the current dil-zen rate of 245. My guess is that will go down once the new fleet holding comes and dil is at more of a premium. How much it goes down will depend on how big or small the glut of dil is in the system for STO.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I'll pass on reading the whole thread and toss in my own two cents.
It's common industry practice in MMOs to obsolete gear and that's what STO has done. In nearly all MMOs for example, one gets nothing for the having the last RAID set of gear towards the new set (except perhaps needing that quality of gear in the first place to get the next- an even more restrictive approach than that taken by STO).
The primary difference here is that the ships have the old appearance so it seems like we're paying twice for the same thing when in fact we're paying for the next level of things. But that is an illusion.
Now I've never cared much for that standard practice, but it is what it is. Standard practice.
Now STO has actually done better than that.
First, they've generally gone the route of allowing the consoles from the T5 ships to become part of a new expanded set. Now one can say (rightly so IMO) that this is a meaningless feature as most people toss those consoles in favor of more effective one. So while for me that's no value add- it's still a nice thing.
Second, they toss in the old appearance with the new one. I fully expected them to require you to buy the original to use the original skin on the T6 version. They didn't do that. This is a win.
So I'm ok with it.
I think it would have been nice, it would have rewarded players with some history, and it would have provide Cryptic with needed good will to provide a small discount (say 500) for owners of the T5 version. But hey, they aren't that nice nor that interested in good will.
When I beam down to Risa I can't even finish the load screen before there are half a dozen comments in zone chat, mostly the trolls from ESD vacationing on Risa...
Also, while I don't do many STF's I also don't spend much time queued up either, meaning it only takes a couple of minutes to find a group for a PUG.
After reading your comments for the past few days, I've noticed all you say is effectively the same basic complaint:
"STO is dying. DOOM!" blah, blah...
Suffice it to say, aside from the usual summer 'lull' STO is doing fine. Perhaps not as well as it did shortly after going FTP, but that's to be expected.
If you don't have anything constructive to say I suggest you don't say anything. (Especially since you have repeated the same argument over and over so much already.)
As for Cryptic's pricing policies, I suggest everyone look around. Many companies 'obsolete' past products with newer ones and charge full price for them. There are those that don't, or at least, don't often. But generally, that's how many companies generate consistant sources of revenue, and it's been that way for decades.
The fact that Cryptic is doing it this way as well basically means they are choosing a pricing policy that has proven itself to work well for other companies.
And it's unlikely to change now that the precedent has been set.
As for Cryptic's pricing policies, I suggest everyone look around. Many companies 'obsolete' past products with newer ones and charge full price for them. There are those that don't, or at least, don't often. But generally, that's how many companies generate consistant sources of revenue, and it's been that way for decades.
The fact that Cryptic is doing it this way as well basically means they are choosing a pricing policy that has proven itself to work well for other companies.
I keep hearing the 'iPhone' comparison but I really don't think that's it. What it really is, is this:
- We didn't buy subs.
- We didn't buy uniforms.
- We didn't buy bridges.
- We didn't buy consumables.
- We did buy ships. But once we found the one we liked, there was less of a chance of buying a new one. And there were only so many T5 configurations the devs could crank out.
- And we did buy dilithium as long as we could get upgrades for it.
So guess what, we're now getting our favorite ships upgraded, on top of a whole new array of intel/command/pilot configurations. For a fee, of course.
Cryptic's gotta get paid, and this is how.
And it's unlikely to change now that the precedent has been set.
I do agree here, though. If the T6s weren't selling, we wouldn't be seeing new ones every month. They know we'll buy new ships.
Hmm, same complaining (again), but also... is that, namecalling? Ohh, a TOS violation, very nice. Kudos.
... If you actually added something to this conversation, I might have a more valid response.
Good Day.
Edit:
Oh, worth noting, 2 years ago was right after STO went FTP, as any game that will cause a massive spike in active players which will enevitably taper off over time.
- We did buy ships. But once we found the one we liked, there was less of a chance of buying a new one.
Anecdote is not data but speaking for myself I bought 20-plus 10-console T5 ships for my various toons and was on the path to buying more. The PVP and DPS communities were full of people who bought multiple ships to test, develop, and use tactics and strategies. In my case, one toon optimized to carrier combat with Fleet-level carriers and flight-deck-cruisers, another character optimized for battlecruisers, another for plasma weapons, and so forth, each with multiple ships. Not anymore though, since they were all wiped out without so much as a thank-you for my patronage.
And there were only so many T5 configurations the devs could crank out.
This is objectively false--specializations could have been done with T5 ships.
I do agree here, though. If the T6s weren't selling, we wouldn't be seeing new ones every month. They know we'll buy new ships.
I'm sure there are some/many people buying T6. Its also possible that player uncertainty for T5 ships has resulted in a overall decline--in that case, nobody looks at T5 like a good deal, so Cryptic has to release T6 just to maintain volume, which is a less-positive scenario
there are dozens of things i could monetise in this game without causing power creep.
tiered ship costumes - bought and changed for creds, dil and zen respectively
bridge station refits - changing the boff layout of a ship
specialist tech items - allow crafting of rep/mission items like caustic plasma
tiered gene therapy - allow changing the traits on boffs for creds dil
weapon frames - use whatever 'look' weapon with the damage type you want
premium account status in periods of 1, 3, 7, 14 and 30 days, that raise your resource gathering rate and refine cap
or sub-premium accounts that apply one attribute of such accounts
game time based % boosts to grind rewards(instead of teh finite pools they have now(dumb idea))
and thats before you get to harder stuff like alien anatomy packs
Tiered ship costumes runs up into the same issue I mentioned first, you buy the one you like and you're done. Heck, they already tried that in the Cryptic Points days and we saw how well that helped. And 2 skins a day? I can hear Thomas The Cat laughing clear from my side of the Rockies and the Mississippi. Bridge station refits? Assuming you could break the code to make it work, slotting as much as you can get away with into tactical would be hella power creep and again would be a one-time deal. Tiered gene therapy is again a one-time deal and completely optional given the array of boffs in the exchange. Weapon frames and alien anatomy run into the same issues with costumes, you don't see them for the lesser half of the game played. And premium account status is called the dilithium exchange.
all this stuff is possible for f2p. what do they do instead? kill off their own playerbase with power creep
What they did do was make money, keep the game afloat, and annoy a handful of cheap players who shout doom over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.
I'll pass on reading the whole thread and toss in my own two cents.
It's common industry practice in MMOs to obsolete gear and that's what STO has done. In nearly all MMOs for example, one gets nothing for the having the last RAID set of gear towards the new set (except perhaps needing that quality of gear in the first place to get the next- an even more restrictive approach than that taken by STO).
The primary difference here is that the ships have the old appearance so it seems like we're paying twice for the same thing when in fact we're paying for the next level of things. But that is an illusion.
(I see you mention that later)
Actually, while they have the option to use the old appearance, they also come with a new one, so the "ship deal" is far better than the gear deal is. Especially with the kitbashing system a single extra variant appearance actually turns into several new possible appearances.
Second, they toss in the old appearance with the new one. I fully expected them to require you to buy the original to use the original skin on the T6 version. They didn't do that. This is a win.
Is that also true for skins from purchasable variants? With the Mogh, it seemed to be true, I can't remember buying the Tier 5 Mogh, but still can use its appearance. Can one use the Bellephoron skin on the Tier 6 Long Range Science Vessel Retrofit if one doesn't own the lower tier skin?
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Actually, while they have the option to use the old appearance, they also come with a new one, so the "ship deal" is far better than the gear deal is. Especially with the kitbashing system a single extra variant appearance actually turns into several new possible appearances.
I agree. And sometimes this allows you to make a acceptable ship out what by themselves were two unacceptable options.
I found that using the new T6 battlecruiser hull and nacelles with the Avenger's saucer and pylons actually produced something I could live with. Still not great, but livable.
Each ship takes the same amount of work to make, in fact ships that share parts take more work to make. So why, just because some parts are shared, should they sell the new ship for less?
You pay full price every time because you are literally buying a completely new ship every time. That ship didn't make itself. You wouldn't go to the car dealership every year and demand a new car for free because you own last years model. Labor costs money.
Stop the nonsensical car comparison. Software, especially a part of software that isn't functional on its own, is not equal to a car. Dammit.
We are talking about in-game items here, a character in a video game if you will. If you seriously consider it exactly the same as a hardware purchase in the magnitude of a car that's your thing. I don't ask for a discount on STO II or other Cryptic games, but a better comparision would be MS offering discounted upgrades for you each time a new windows is released. You could have owned Windows 3.11 and never paid full price up to windows 10, sometimes they even gave the upgrade away for free.
Labor is labor is labor. You just want stuff for free and will justify it any way you want. And also get a dictionary and look up analogy, because you don't seem to know what that is. I'm trying to explain to people who seem unable to figure out things on their own via a comparative system why it is how it is.
Every game with a cash shop sells the items in it for full price. You don't get next weeks horse for less because you bought last weeks horse, and those are even more alike then a T5 vs a T6 ship of the same line.
As we have these brand spanking new forums, may I suggest a poll to get a sense of how all the STO players who use the forums agree or disagree with you?
53% saying upgrades should be a thing.
33% who functionally, want the game to die from continuing to bleed players.
and
12% who dont spend money anyway.
Can I play to?
53% saying they want the game to go under due to lack of funds
33% saying they want the game to be well funded and go on for a long time
12% Don't care
Labor is labor is labor. You just want stuff for free and will justify it any way you want. And also get a dictionary and look up analogy, because you don't seem to know what that is. I'm trying to explain to people who seem unable to figure out things on their own via a comparative system why it is how it is.
Every game with a cash shop sells the items in it for full price. You don't get next weeks horse for less because you bought last weeks horse, and those are even more alike then a T5 vs a T6 ship of the same line.
"Labor" isn't the only thing deciding pricing. And as already pointed out, Cryptic don't set their prices on anything, they use flat pricing for ship tiers which is comparable to a new software version rather than a new car. And a analogy limping as hard as "STO character to new car" isn't very helpful. I'm ignoring the arrogant assumptions you make entirely because those don't advance the debate in any meaningful way.
The only point you're making is that purchasing a mount doesn't grant a discount on the next which is true if we're just looking at cosmetic differences. The starships in STO however have a synergy. You need all of them for maximum performance, so adding a discount would certainly increase the incentive to purchase the whole series. There is no general rule that would require them to offer a discount, I never said that. But it would certainly be a nice gesture, cosnidering their pricing is extremely high.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Comments
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
It's common industry practice in MMOs to obsolete gear and that's what STO has done. In nearly all MMOs for example, one gets nothing for the having the last RAID set of gear towards the new set (except perhaps needing that quality of gear in the first place to get the next- an even more restrictive approach than that taken by STO).
The primary difference here is that the ships have the old appearance so it seems like we're paying twice for the same thing when in fact we're paying for the next level of things. But that is an illusion.
Now I've never cared much for that standard practice, but it is what it is. Standard practice.
Now STO has actually done better than that.
First, they've generally gone the route of allowing the consoles from the T5 ships to become part of a new expanded set. Now one can say (rightly so IMO) that this is a meaningless feature as most people toss those consoles in favor of more effective one. So while for me that's no value add- it's still a nice thing.
Second, they toss in the old appearance with the new one. I fully expected them to require you to buy the original to use the original skin on the T6 version. They didn't do that. This is a win.
So I'm ok with it.
I think it would have been nice, it would have rewarded players with some history, and it would have provide Cryptic with needed good will to provide a small discount (say 500) for owners of the T5 version. But hey, they aren't that nice nor that interested in good will.
When I beam down to Risa I can't even finish the load screen before there are half a dozen comments in zone chat, mostly the trolls from ESD vacationing on Risa...
Also, while I don't do many STF's I also don't spend much time queued up either, meaning it only takes a couple of minutes to find a group for a PUG.
After reading your comments for the past few days, I've noticed all you say is effectively the same basic complaint:
"STO is dying. DOOM!" blah, blah...
Suffice it to say, aside from the usual summer 'lull' STO is doing fine. Perhaps not as well as it did shortly after going FTP, but that's to be expected.
If you don't have anything constructive to say I suggest you don't say anything. (Especially since you have repeated the same argument over and over so much already.)
As for Cryptic's pricing policies, I suggest everyone look around. Many companies 'obsolete' past products with newer ones and charge full price for them. There are those that don't, or at least, don't often. But generally, that's how many companies generate consistant sources of revenue, and it's been that way for decades.
The fact that Cryptic is doing it this way as well basically means they are choosing a pricing policy that has proven itself to work well for other companies.
And it's unlikely to change now that the precedent has been set.
I keep hearing the 'iPhone' comparison but I really don't think that's it. What it really is, is this:
- We didn't buy subs.
- We didn't buy uniforms.
- We didn't buy bridges.
- We didn't buy consumables.
- We did buy ships. But once we found the one we liked, there was less of a chance of buying a new one. And there were only so many T5 configurations the devs could crank out.
- And we did buy dilithium as long as we could get upgrades for it.
So guess what, we're now getting our favorite ships upgraded, on top of a whole new array of intel/command/pilot configurations. For a fee, of course.
Cryptic's gotta get paid, and this is how.
I do agree here, though. If the T6s weren't selling, we wouldn't be seeing new ones every month. They know we'll buy new ships.
... If you actually added something to this conversation, I might have a more valid response.
Good Day.
Edit:
Oh, worth noting, 2 years ago was right after STO went FTP, as any game that will cause a massive spike in active players which will enevitably taper off over time.
This is objectively false--specializations could have been done with T5 ships.
I'm sure there are some/many people buying T6. Its also possible that player uncertainty for T5 ships has resulted in a overall decline--in that case, nobody looks at T5 like a good deal, so Cryptic has to release T6 just to maintain volume, which is a less-positive scenario
Tiered ship costumes runs up into the same issue I mentioned first, you buy the one you like and you're done. Heck, they already tried that in the Cryptic Points days and we saw how well that helped. And 2 skins a day? I can hear Thomas The Cat laughing clear from my side of the Rockies and the Mississippi. Bridge station refits? Assuming you could break the code to make it work, slotting as much as you can get away with into tactical would be hella power creep and again would be a one-time deal. Tiered gene therapy is again a one-time deal and completely optional given the array of boffs in the exchange. Weapon frames and alien anatomy run into the same issues with costumes, you don't see them for the lesser half of the game played. And premium account status is called the dilithium exchange.
What they did do was make money, keep the game afloat, and annoy a handful of cheap players who shout doom over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.
Actually, while they have the option to use the old appearance, they also come with a new one, so the "ship deal" is far better than the gear deal is. Especially with the kitbashing system a single extra variant appearance actually turns into several new possible appearances.
Is that also true for skins from purchasable variants? With the Mogh, it seemed to be true, I can't remember buying the Tier 5 Mogh, but still can use its appearance. Can one use the Bellephoron skin on the Tier 6 Long Range Science Vessel Retrofit if one doesn't own the lower tier skin?
I agree. And sometimes this allows you to make a acceptable ship out what by themselves were two unacceptable options.
I found that using the new T6 battlecruiser hull and nacelles with the Avenger's saucer and pylons actually produced something I could live with. Still not great, but livable.
I can't speak for all of them (in fact, I can only speak for the example I gave above) as I don't buy many ships. But for those that do, it's a win.
As a side note, I do consider the old prices for T5 ships to be too high now. It needs to be reduced by 500 or even 1000 zen.
Labor is labor is labor. You just want stuff for free and will justify it any way you want. And also get a dictionary and look up analogy, because you don't seem to know what that is. I'm trying to explain to people who seem unable to figure out things on their own via a comparative system why it is how it is.
Every game with a cash shop sells the items in it for full price. You don't get next weeks horse for less because you bought last weeks horse, and those are even more alike then a T5 vs a T6 ship of the same line.
Can I play to?
53% saying they want the game to go under due to lack of funds
33% saying they want the game to be well funded and go on for a long time
12% Don't care
"Labor" isn't the only thing deciding pricing. And as already pointed out, Cryptic don't set their prices on anything, they use flat pricing for ship tiers which is comparable to a new software version rather than a new car. And a analogy limping as hard as "STO character to new car" isn't very helpful. I'm ignoring the arrogant assumptions you make entirely because those don't advance the debate in any meaningful way.
The only point you're making is that purchasing a mount doesn't grant a discount on the next which is true if we're just looking at cosmetic differences. The starships in STO however have a synergy. You need all of them for maximum performance, so adding a discount would certainly increase the incentive to purchase the whole series. There is no general rule that would require them to offer a discount, I never said that. But it would certainly be a nice gesture, cosnidering their pricing is extremely high.
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