Hard to say entitlement when they want to make you pay again what you have just because they added to it a new skin and buffed stats while keeping most unaltered.
Demanding the discount because of owning the older version is a bit of "entitlement."
I just went into my Ford dealer today and asked if I could get a big discount off the 2015 model because I bought the 2014 model which sadly was lacking the Bluetooth and FLIR saftey systems I wanted. They told me to go away.
They wouldn't even give you a trade in?
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
These threads are highly amusing really, we get a new one whenever a T5 ship is re-released as T6 (negh'var and Galaxy appeared to be the only exception I've seen and even the galaxy had it to a lesser degree)
Replace every mention of Avenger/Arbiter with Intrepid/Pathfinder. This has been happening for nearly a year guys, its not going to change now.
It will happen when the t6 akira, ar'kif and defiants, b'rel, tvaro come out too.
I'm sorry guys but line up the basic t5 Avenger to the new t6. Are they the same stats? Same price? Same consoles? No? They aren't the same ship. buy the new t6, you'll get a discount on the fleet t6. Expecting to get a discount just because you bought something similar is just naive. Now the fact that they introduced t6 in the 1st place is a whole other debate.
I just wish they would learn how to make and sell interesting variants of a ship and grow the business by growing the game. This business model of purposefully obsoleting whole classes for short-term profit-taking is incredibly destructive.
I just went into my Ford dealer today and asked if I could get a big discount off the 2015 model because I bought the 2014 model which sadly was lacking the Bluetooth and FLIR saftey systems I wanted. They told me to go away.
Actually, if you went to a car dealership with a one year old car and was prepared to purchase the newer model a dealer (in England anyway) would probably give you a discount because:
1. You are a repeat/returning/regular customer and they would like to keep it that way
2. Keep you from going to the competition
I know few people who have bought a car that is 1 - 3 years old and not walked away with some form of discount.
But the policy is unfair or at the very least could be improved. And this is what I don't get about you. Are you paid by Cryptic? No? So a change in policy would benefit the players, including you, so why are you arguing with near religious fever against something that would benefit you?
I'd be like, "You know what a change in policy would be preferred, but I don't thin Cryptic is likely to change". You're acting like we're attacking a loved one or trying to get the game closed down or something.
That's why you are being accused of Stockholm Syndrome.
I just went into my Ford dealer today and asked if I could get a big discount off the 2015 model because I bought the 2014 model which sadly was lacking the Bluetooth and FLIR saftey systems I wanted. They told me to go away.
Actually, if you went to a car dealership with a one year old car and was prepared to purchase the newer model a dealer (in England anyway) would probably give you a discount because:
1. You are a repeat/returning/regular customer and they would like to keep it that way
2. Keep you from going to the competition
I know few people who have bought a car that is 1 - 3 years old and not walked away with some form of discount.
But the policy is unfair or at the very least could be improved. And this is what I don't get about you. Are you paid by Cryptic? No? So a change in policy would benefit the players, including you, so why are you arguing with near religious fever against something that would benefit you?
It would lower the prices for ships for players. that's at first sight a benefit.
But if it means that Cryptic gets less money from ships, than it might mean they have to make less of them, or that they need additional venues of income. Or their business fails and the game stops getting developed to any significant extent, or even closes down. That's not to my benefit. At least not if I actually want to play Star Trek Online and have all the money I already spend on it still be somewhat useful to me.
People say it's bad business, but.. that's just saying it. You don't know that, because for now, Tier 6 ships get bought at the price they are being offered, and make Cryptic money. Would they really sell so much more Tier 6 ships that a lower price would compensate? If not, what do they get out of it?
And the car dealership example is also questionable example. Trading in your old car rarely nets you something like a 80 % price reduction (like it works with fleet modules, for example.)! A 20 % reduction might be feasible, highly dependent on make, model and age. But guess what - we're currently seeing a 20 % reduction across the board for the release weekend. And there is a 33 % price reduction if you buy the 3-ship pack, too (that's like buying 3 cars for the price of 2). And about a 13 % reduction if you buy Zen with real world money this weekend.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
There is only the Arbiter (Tier 6) which is capable of using the Avenger skin.
There is only one Avenger Battlecruiser and it's a T5 ship.
In game there is:
Avenger Battlercruiser, which can only be bought in the C-store)
Tier 5 Fleet Avenger Battlecruiser, which comes with a different colour and pylon option and upgraded stats. This can be purchased with 5 ship modules or a discount of 1 module if you have bought the Tier 5 Avenger from the c-store
You can upgrade either of the aforementioned ship to Tier 5-U with an upgrade token for 700 zen, which is more than the ship module - but a one time free offer was given when this was implemented.
Tier 6 Fleet Avenger Battlecruiser, which uses the exact same skin as the Tier 5 Fleet Avenger and has upgraded stats. This does not come with a discount if you have bought the two previous versions of the same ship.
Let's ignore the Arbiter for one second - lets assume I don't want the console or the Starship Trait. As only the Tier 5 Avenger comes with the VATS console. Meaning if you want the perk you have to spend 5000 - 5500 Zen in the C-store depending when you bought and what store discount offer was available.
Difference between a Tier 5, Tier 5 Fleet, Tier 5-U and Tier 6 Avenger Battlecruiser
Tier 5 Avenger compared to Tier 5 Fleet Avenger
1 extra science console
Increased Hull
Increased shield modifier (increased by 0.1)
The Tier 5-U Fleet Avenger compared to the above
1 extra engineering console
Increased Hull
Starship mastery
Tier 6 Fleet Avenger compared to Tier 5-U
Increased Hull
1 more Bridge officer power
Intel bridge officer option
Now I'm of the thought that in the absence of any new real ship redesign (yes you can have the Arbiter skin, for all the Avengers you have previously bought, but you have to pay for that), weapon layout or significant stat/feature changes at the upper levels, they are all the same ship just slightly upgraded and given that by the time you get to Tier 6 Fleet Avenger you might have already spent:
2500 zen on the original Avenger
500 - 2500 on the ship modules for the Fleet Avenger
700 zen on the ship upgrade to Tier 5- U
That they could have reduced the cost of the Tier 6 Fleet Avenger to 1 ship module as oppose to making you spend:
2500 for the 5 ship modules or 3000 for the Arbiter and 500 for the additional 1 ship module.
Keep your money and let this waste of a thread finally die.
The final word, ^^
The OP gives new levels to the word naivety, accusing those who try to explain how the system works of having Stockholm Syndrome or being a white knight. If you don't want to pay for it OP then don't sodding well pay for it, we don't care, got it?
Leaving this sorry thread to the OPs QQing, otherwise I'll have to start looking for a brick wall to bang my head against.
Really how, why?
The point of the thread was to point out what I believe to be an unfair pricing of an existing upgraded ship. Yes the topic may have been discussed previously, from this I draw two conclusions: (i) I don't fly Intrepid/Pathfinder so wasn't aware of that discussion and (ii) if others have taken issue with the same thing I'm raising there is at least a healthy percentage of the playing/paying community unhappy with the status quo so my thread and points raised aren't invalidated. Why must you meet it with such hostility bordering on the offensive?
It is reasonable to expect that not every thread in a online forum is going to be in agreement with your opinion or even positive about the topic the forum was created for, in this case Star Trek. In both instances anything contrary to your opinion and/or your view of the game is not automatically wrong.
Further a discussion forum is exactly the place to discuss differing opinions, to feedback aspects of the game and to ask questions. It would be more productive to answer these constructively than to spout the idioms of "That's how the game is so live with it". Unpopular decisions can be overturned.
Or better yet, how about attacking the argument and addressing my post about the differences between the tiered ships (seriously just because a ship is classed a different tier doesn't, in my mind, make it a new ship) as oppose to attacking the person.
Keep your money and let this waste of a thread finally die.
The final word, ^^
The OP gives new levels to the word naivety, accusing those who try to explain how the system works of having Stockholm Syndrome or being a white knight. If you don't want to pay for it OP then don't sodding well pay for it, we don't care, got it?
Leaving this sorry thread to the OPs QQing, otherwise I'll have to start looking for a brick wall to bang my head against.
Really how, why?
The point of the thread was to point out what I believe to be an unfair pricing of an existing upgraded ship. Yes the topic may have been discussed previously, from this I draw two conclusions: (i) I don't fly Intrepid/Pathfinder so wasn't aware of that discussion and (ii) if others have taken issue with the same thing I'm raising there is at least a healthy percentage of the playing/paying community unhappy with the status quo so my thread and points raised aren't invalidated. Why must you meet it with such hostility bordering on the offensive?
It is reasonable to expect that not every thread in a online forum is going to be in agreement with your opinion or even positive about the topic the forum was created for, in this case Star Trek. In both instances anything contrary to your opinion and/or your view of the game is not automatically wrong.
Further a discussion forum is exactly the place to discuss differing opinions, to feedback aspects of the game and to ask questions. It would be more productive to answer these constructively than to spout the idioms of "That's how the game is so live with it". Unpopular decisions can be overturned.
Or better yet, how about attacking the argument and addressing my post about the differences between the tiered ships (seriously just because a ship is classed a different tier doesn't, in my mind, make it a new ship) as oppose to attacking the person.
note your talking about the same fanbase who complained about free ships... not the event ships. cyptic literally, the real definition, gave away free c store ships unlocked for all time and everything. and people complained. so I'm sure you can see why some people take people saying their unhappy with a gain of salt.
on to actual point of the thread. assume you have job. image if someone decided you know what you did the same job last pay so you don't really need a full pay next time instead you get a 5th of your last pay. oh and your a greedy selfish TRIBBLE for asking for a full pay. does that sound right to you?
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
Also, mattjohnsonva and seaofsorrows, if you don't like the topic don't post in the thread. I've broken no rules by creating this thread and just because you don't agree or like the content doesn't mean the thread itself should not exist.
on to actual point of the thread. assume you have job. image if someone decided you know what you did the same job last pay so you don't really need a full pay next time instead you get a 5th of your last pay. oh and your a greedy selfish TRIBBLE for asking for a full pay. does that sound right to you?
No because the structure of your sentence makes it difficult to understand the point you are raising.
Do I think it is right that I am being asked to spend 2500 zen on an upgraded Fleet Avenger (Tier 6 compared to Tier 5-U) when 2500 is the price of a new ship? No.
There is an alternative 3000 zen (by purchasing the Arbiter for 2500 and 500 for the Tier 6 Fleet Avenger), which is more expensive.
I think neither of these options favour the player community.
Also, mattjohnsonva and seaofsorrows, if you don't like the topic don't post in the thread. I've broken no rules by creating this thread and just because you don't agree or like the content doesn't mean the thread itself should not exist.
on to actual point of the thread. assume you have job. image if someone decided you know what you did the same job last pay so you don't really need a full pay next time instead you get a 5th of your last pay. oh and your a greedy selfish TRIBBLE for asking for a full pay. does that sound right to you?
No because the structure of your sentence makes it difficult to understand the point you are raising.
Do I think it is right that I am being asked to spend 2500 zen on an upgraded Fleet Avenger (Tier 6 compared to Tier 5-U) when 2500 is the price of a new ship? No.
There is an alternative 3000 zen (by purchasing the Arbiter for 2500 and 500 for the Tier 6 Fleet Avenger), which is more expensive.
I think neither of these options favour the player community.
does having a game favor the player community?
let my try again. say, you make 500$ a week at your job. then somebody decides because you've done this for a while you don't need 500$ a week, now you now make 100$ a week. does that sound a little odd to you.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
let my try again. say, you make 500$ a week at your job. then somebody decides because you've done this for a while you don't need 500$ a week, now you now make 100$ a week. does that sound a little odd to you.
This isn't even an example of anykind because it is completely unrelated to what I'm talking about.
I own a HTC One, after my contract ends I'm going to phone my mobile provider and they are going to offer me a new contract and new phone at a discounted price. They have done this every year for 17 years.
They do this because I have already invested in the company buy being a customer, its good business sense to reward loyalty and they don't want me going to the competition.
let my try again. say, you make 500$ a week at your job. then somebody decides because you've done this for a while you don't need 500$ a week, now you now make 100$ a week. does that sound a little odd to you.
This isn't even an example of anykind because it is completely unrelated to what I'm talking about.
I own a HTC One, after my contract ends I'm going to phone my mobile provider and they are going to offer me a new contract and new phone at a discounted price. They have done this every year for 17 years.
They do this because I have already invested in the company buy being a customer, its good business sense to reward loyalty and they don't want me going to the competition.
That's a meaningful example.
do you get to keep your old phone?
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
Name me one time, one example in STO where we ever had a discount for a higher tiered ship due to owning a lower tiered one.
T4 Defiant/Galaxy/Intrepid did not give a discount for T5 Defiant/Galaxy/Intrepid, and right now, no discount from T4 or T5 to get a T6 Galaxy/Intrepid. The T1 B'Rotlh BOP did not give a discount for the T5 B'Rel nor the T5 Fleet B'Rel. This had been brought up before, long before the advent of T6, long before "Delta Rising" even existed on these boards, before T6 and DR was even a thought in our heads. And you people around here were fine with it.
Then all the sudden, the trend continues with T6, and people act like there was a massive change in how business was carried out?
Who said that it's ever been a good policy? If you're fine with spending 30$ for a ship you already have go on ahead.
I'd rather use them on Steam.
And still, you'd be using them on a game that on medium settings runs worse than Tomb Raider 2013 on high settings.
I just went into my Ford dealer today and asked if I could get a big discount off the 2015 model because I bought the 2014 model which sadly was lacking the Bluetooth and FLIR saftey systems I wanted. They told me to go away.
It's the company's policy, nobody is forcing anyone to buy anything, the T5-U Avenger is a fine ship, it's quite capable of running any mission in this game and even pvp, but it's not up there at the top of the leader board for abilities and doesn't quite have the build variety that the T6 has, same with the other ships. The T6 Eclipse would wipe out a T5-U Sovvy as the difference here is even greater. But the Sovvy is a fine ship and can do all the game content.
This is the policy they have set out and it seems to be working for them, it makes them money which keeps the game running. Personally if I like something I'll buy it if I can afford it, I won't come here moaning that I should get the latest model at a massive discount because, like the Ford dealer, they would tell me to go away.
clap clap congratulations on comparing a real life car company to virtual ships. That really makes sense.
Still in some cases car dealers make you discounts on a new car if you turn in yours so... you managed to find an example that actually goes against your thinking.
BTW, why aren't you in kerrat any more, not seen you for ages?
Oh... it's only that... well you know.
I left. PvP is gone. 90% of those I knew stopped playing. Grind is endless. It runs worse on low-medium settings than Tomb Raider on high settings. Non-stop server rubberbanding. Can't stand the addition of repetitive (=/= repeatable) content. The lead dev insulted a portion of the community which included me. They openly said they don't listen to player feedback that much.
Now, honestly, WHY should I even keep on going? The Trek's gone after Starfleet decided to break the Temporal Prime Directive by altering timeline as said in the last Krenim episode.
Still in some cases car dealers make you discounts on a new car if you turn in yours so... you managed to find an example that actually goes against your thinking.
Ric, come on, both are real life companies, and in this case with Cryptic you get to keep the old vehicle whether it's digital or not is irrelevant both have real life monetary values. The car analogy is expecting you to get a discount WITHOUT trading your old car in, so you get to keep both, that's what some people are missing here and my mistake was not highlighting that.
Actually new or used it costs money to keep a car on a forecourt so you'll find that car dealers are willing to discount whether you've got a car to trade-in or not. It's even in car buying advice guides that you should push for a discount/negotiate the "drive away today" price.
So your example really does go against your thinking.
Comments
Demanding the discount because of owning the older version is a bit of "entitlement."
They wouldn't even give you a trade in?
Replace every mention of Avenger/Arbiter with Intrepid/Pathfinder. This has been happening for nearly a year guys, its not going to change now.
It will happen when the t6 akira, ar'kif and defiants, b'rel, tvaro come out too.
There is only the Arbiter (Tier 6) which is capable of using the Avenger skin.
There is only one Avenger Battlecruiser and it's a T5 ship.
Actually, if you went to a car dealership with a one year old car and was prepared to purchase the newer model a dealer (in England anyway) would probably give you a discount because:
1. You are a repeat/returning/regular customer and they would like to keep it that way
2. Keep you from going to the competition
I know few people who have bought a car that is 1 - 3 years old and not walked away with some form of discount.
But the policy is unfair or at the very least could be improved. And this is what I don't get about you. Are you paid by Cryptic? No? So a change in policy would benefit the players, including you, so why are you arguing with near religious fever against something that would benefit you?
I'd be like, "You know what a change in policy would be preferred, but I don't thin Cryptic is likely to change". You're acting like we're attacking a loved one or trying to get the game closed down or something.
That's why you are being accused of Stockholm Syndrome.
But if it means that Cryptic gets less money from ships, than it might mean they have to make less of them, or that they need additional venues of income. Or their business fails and the game stops getting developed to any significant extent, or even closes down. That's not to my benefit. At least not if I actually want to play Star Trek Online and have all the money I already spend on it still be somewhat useful to me.
People say it's bad business, but.. that's just saying it. You don't know that, because for now, Tier 6 ships get bought at the price they are being offered, and make Cryptic money. Would they really sell so much more Tier 6 ships that a lower price would compensate? If not, what do they get out of it?
And the car dealership example is also questionable example. Trading in your old car rarely nets you something like a 80 % price reduction (like it works with fleet modules, for example.)! A 20 % reduction might be feasible, highly dependent on make, model and age. But guess what - we're currently seeing a 20 % reduction across the board for the release weekend. And there is a 33 % price reduction if you buy the 3-ship pack, too (that's like buying 3 cars for the price of 2). And about a 13 % reduction if you buy Zen with real world money this weekend.
In game there is:
Avenger Battlercruiser, which can only be bought in the C-store)
Tier 5 Fleet Avenger Battlecruiser, which comes with a different colour and pylon option and upgraded stats. This can be purchased with 5 ship modules or a discount of 1 module if you have bought the Tier 5 Avenger from the c-store
You can upgrade either of the aforementioned ship to Tier 5-U with an upgrade token for 700 zen, which is more than the ship module - but a one time free offer was given when this was implemented.
Tier 6 Fleet Avenger Battlecruiser, which uses the exact same skin as the Tier 5 Fleet Avenger and has upgraded stats. This does not come with a discount if you have bought the two previous versions of the same ship.
Let's ignore the Arbiter for one second - lets assume I don't want the console or the Starship Trait. As only the Tier 5 Avenger comes with the VATS console. Meaning if you want the perk you have to spend 5000 - 5500 Zen in the C-store depending when you bought and what store discount offer was available.
Difference between a Tier 5, Tier 5 Fleet, Tier 5-U and Tier 6 Avenger Battlecruiser
Tier 5 Avenger compared to Tier 5 Fleet Avenger
1 extra science console
Increased Hull
Increased shield modifier (increased by 0.1)
The Tier 5-U Fleet Avenger compared to the above
1 extra engineering console
Increased Hull
Starship mastery
Tier 6 Fleet Avenger compared to Tier 5-U
Increased Hull
1 more Bridge officer power
Intel bridge officer option
Now I'm of the thought that in the absence of any new real ship redesign (yes you can have the Arbiter skin, for all the Avengers you have previously bought, but you have to pay for that), weapon layout or significant stat/feature changes at the upper levels, they are all the same ship just slightly upgraded and given that by the time you get to Tier 6 Fleet Avenger you might have already spent:
2500 zen on the original Avenger
500 - 2500 on the ship modules for the Fleet Avenger
700 zen on the ship upgrade to Tier 5- U
That they could have reduced the cost of the Tier 6 Fleet Avenger to 1 ship module as oppose to making you spend:
2500 for the 5 ship modules or 3000 for the Arbiter and 500 for the additional 1 ship module.
So all in you could have potentially spent:
6200 - 8700 for 4 iterations of the same ship.
Some of you might be okay with that, I'm not.
Then don't buy it.
Keep your money and let this waste of a thread finally die.
So in other words I'm right. Thanks
Really how, why?
The point of the thread was to point out what I believe to be an unfair pricing of an existing upgraded ship. Yes the topic may have been discussed previously, from this I draw two conclusions: (i) I don't fly Intrepid/Pathfinder so wasn't aware of that discussion and (ii) if others have taken issue with the same thing I'm raising there is at least a healthy percentage of the playing/paying community unhappy with the status quo so my thread and points raised aren't invalidated. Why must you meet it with such hostility bordering on the offensive?
It is reasonable to expect that not every thread in a online forum is going to be in agreement with your opinion or even positive about the topic the forum was created for, in this case Star Trek. In both instances anything contrary to your opinion and/or your view of the game is not automatically wrong.
Further a discussion forum is exactly the place to discuss differing opinions, to feedback aspects of the game and to ask questions. It would be more productive to answer these constructively than to spout the idioms of "That's how the game is so live with it". Unpopular decisions can be overturned.
Or better yet, how about attacking the argument and addressing my post about the differences between the tiered ships (seriously just because a ship is classed a different tier doesn't, in my mind, make it a new ship) as oppose to attacking the person.
note your talking about the same fanbase who complained about free ships... not the event ships. cyptic literally, the real definition, gave away free c store ships unlocked for all time and everything. and people complained. so I'm sure you can see why some people take people saying their unhappy with a gain of salt.
on to actual point of the thread. assume you have job. image if someone decided you know what you did the same job last pay so you don't really need a full pay next time instead you get a 5th of your last pay. oh and your a greedy selfish TRIBBLE for asking for a full pay. does that sound right to you?
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
No because the structure of your sentence makes it difficult to understand the point you are raising.
Do I think it is right that I am being asked to spend 2500 zen on an upgraded Fleet Avenger (Tier 6 compared to Tier 5-U) when 2500 is the price of a new ship? No.
There is an alternative 3000 zen (by purchasing the Arbiter for 2500 and 500 for the Tier 6 Fleet Avenger), which is more expensive.
I think neither of these options favour the player community.
does having a game favor the player community?
let my try again. say, you make 500$ a week at your job. then somebody decides because you've done this for a while you don't need 500$ a week, now you now make 100$ a week. does that sound a little odd to you.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
Again, these collection of words don't make any sense.
This isn't even an example of anykind because it is completely unrelated to what I'm talking about.
I own a HTC One, after my contract ends I'm going to phone my mobile provider and they are going to offer me a new contract and new phone at a discounted price. They have done this every year for 17 years.
They do this because I have already invested in the company buy being a customer, its good business sense to reward loyalty and they don't want me going to the competition.
That's a meaningful example.
do you get to keep your old phone?
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
clap clap congratulations on comparing a real life car company to virtual ships. That really makes sense.
Still in some cases car dealers make you discounts on a new car if you turn in yours so... you managed to find an example that actually goes against your thinking.
Oh... it's only that... well you know.
I left. PvP is gone. 90% of those I knew stopped playing. Grind is endless. It runs worse on low-medium settings than Tomb Raider on high settings. Non-stop server rubberbanding. Can't stand the addition of repetitive (=/= repeatable) content. The lead dev insulted a portion of the community which included me. They openly said they don't listen to player feedback that much.
Now, honestly, WHY should I even keep on going? The Trek's gone after Starfleet decided to break the Temporal Prime Directive by altering timeline as said in the last Krenim episode.
No, in other words.. you're a complete idiot.
I thought exactly the same thing +1!
Actually new or used it costs money to keep a car on a forecourt so you'll find that car dealers are willing to discount whether you've got a car to trade-in or not. It's even in car buying advice guides that you should push for a discount/negotiate the "drive away today" price.
So your example really does go against your thinking.
Attack the argument not the man, insults don't strengthen your point.
wait... really, well the screws up my world view.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.