Rihhansu Romulans have a tenuous connection to TOS, but aside from that, have been basically ignored by the shows. For good reason, IMO.
Well, Cryptic clearly disagrees with you. And because we're playing in Cryptic's story, it's worth reading the Rihannsu series. The more you read of the Romulan lore that's available, the more little references you can pick out and understand in STO.
Again (as I wrote in the part of my post immediately below the part you quoted) it is when it is so disconnected from the Rest of Trek canon.
Rihhansu Romulans have a tenuous connection to TOS, but aside from that, have been basically ignored by the shows. For good reason, IMO.
In your opinion. In mine, the Romulans would have been greatly enhanced by a dose of Rihannsu. They were ignored because the show needed some sneaky mustache twirling villains, and the Ferengi were too comic relief for that role by then.
Again (as I wrote in the part of my post immediately below the part you quoted) it is when it is so disconnected from the Rest of Trek canon.
Rihhansu Romulans have a tenuous connection to TOS, but aside from that, have been basically ignored by the shows. For good reason, IMO.
It's not a tenuous connection at all. Your dislike of TOS Romulans and the best novel series based on them is absolute dreck, all because you prefer to goosestep and kiss Sela's derriere, strut around like a miles gloriosus and generally behave like a petulant anti-Vulcan, due to your preference for a later imagining, which is probably the first Star Trek you ever watched. For some of us, 19 years of the original ideal, developed further by Ms. Duane, trumps the newfangled, poorly acted, and poorly written kitsch of the newer series (TNG was for at least the first 2-3 seasons, pure TRIBBLE with only a few pearls here and there, and there's still plenty of TRIBBLE in it even after it improved to a tolerable state, and it wasn't till DS9 that we got a truly good Trek series again). The TOS Romulans were not anti-Vulcans. They were simply different from the Vulcans. Or, more accurately, the Vulcans were different from them (since it was the Vulcans who changed, embracing a new worldview and abandoning the old ways).
And Mr. Roddenberry's chief objection was over a very small portion of her first book taken out of context, wherein she said that the Rihannsu were never Romulans. The intent of that statement would be the same as if I said "The Saami were never Lapps." A people is not defined or named by outsiders, but by themselves. That was the point she was making, and somehow it got taken out of context by someone who showed that to Mr. Roddenberry without bothering to give him the full picture. So you can drop this line now.
One of the biggest differences is the first contact between Humans and Romulans.
The book was written before Star Trek: Nemesis and before ENT. So it does not really explain the physical differences between Remans/Romulans. Also in the book the Rihannsu were still limited to their own system and had limited warp flight capability when they first met a human explorer ship with disastrous results.
ENT established that the Romulans already had a sizeable empire and had in fact begun to infiltrate the society of their Vulcan cousins.
I am not sure what to make out of this. I like the Rihannsu story better and in my opinion it makes more sense then most of the stuff in ENT. (Starting with the 'upside down Akira' NX-01.)
If I had a vote in there I would recommend to adopt the book as canon and throw the whole ENT canon out of the airlock (not a big loss).
And Mr. Roddenberry's chief objection was over a very small portion of her first book taken out of context, wherein she said that the Rihannsu were never Romulans. The intent of that statement would be the same as if I said "The Saami were never Lapps." A people is not defined or named by outsiders, but by themselves. That was the point she was making, and somehow it got taken out of context by someone who showed that to Mr. Roddenberry without bothering to give him the full picture. So you can drop this line now.
*Ahem*
"Gene felt that Diane's book was not a "Star Trek"
book at all but something completely unrelated, with McCoy thrown in in
order to sell it as a "Star Trek" story."-Richard Arnold
It was also branded as an "alternate Star Trek universe" by Pocket Books.
So it's not even "soft canon" really.
It's fine that she has her fans and all, I wouldn't want to take something they enjoy away from them. But quite frankly, the oft repeated insistence that Her works supersede all else in regards to Romulans is quite, frankly-ridiculous.
Lastly:
"Some people have the idea that my work is somehow being slighted, or that I'm being done some kind of wrong, by the filmed version of Trek not taking my stuff into account. While I take their concern for me very kindly, I still think the idea is fallacious."
-Diane Duane
Take it from the woman herself. You like Rihhansu, good. You don't have to stomp all over everyone else to do that. The existence of people who are fans of the TNG-DS9 Romulans but not of her fan universe Romulans is not a heretical screed that needs to be stamped out or 'corrected' wherever it appears. Leave that kind of fanatical behavior to the Tal SHiar, where it belongs.
One of the biggest differences is the first contact between Humans and Romulans.
The book was written before Star Trek: Nemesis and before ENT. So it does not really explain the physical differences between Remans/Romulans. Also in the book the Rihannsu were still limited to their own system and had limited warp flight capability when they first met a human explorer ship with disastrous results.
ENT established that the Romulans already had a sizeable empire and had in fact begun to infiltrate the society of their Vulcan cousins.
I am not sure what to make out of this. I like the Rihannsu story better and in my opinion it makes more sense then most of the stuff in ENT. (Starting with the 'upside down Akira' NX-01.)
If I had a vote in there I would recommend to adopt the book as canon and throw the whole ENT canon out of the airlock (not a big loss).
It was written before Nemesis, so there was no real Reman species at the time. Just Romulans who lived on Remus.
"Gene felt that Diane's book was not a "Star Trek"
book at all but something completely unrelated, with McCoy thrown in in
order to sell it as a "Star Trek" story."-Richard Arnold
It was also branded as an "alternate Star Trek universe" by Pocket Books.
So it's not even "soft canon" really.
It's fine that she has her fans and all, I wouldn't want to take something they enjoy away from them. But quite frankly, the oft repeated insistence that Her works supersede all else in regards to Romulans is quite, frankly-ridiculous.
Lastly:
"Some people have the idea that my work is somehow being slighted, or that I'm being done some kind of wrong, by the filmed version of Trek not taking my stuff into account. While I take their concern for me very kindly, I still think the idea is fallacious."
-Diane Duane
Take it from the woman herself. You like Rihhansu, good. You don't have to stomp all over everyone else to do that. The existence of people who are fans of the TNG-DS9 Romulans but not of her fan universe Romulans is not a heretical screed that needs to be stamped out or 'corrected' wherever it appears. Leave that kind of fanatical behavior to the Tal SHiar, where it belongs.
I thought they'd never get around to telling us.
We've been quite open about it. The point is that the only reason we fight back is because you scream and moan and shove your view of Romulans in our face and denigrate our equally valid views.
One of the biggest differences is the first contact between Humans and Romulans.
The book was written before Star Trek: Nemesis and before ENT. So it does not really explain the physical differences between Remans/Romulans. Also in the book the Rihannsu were still limited to their own system and had limited warp flight capability when they first met a human explorer ship with disastrous results.
ENT established that the Romulans already had a sizeable empire and had in fact begun to infiltrate the society of their Vulcan cousins.
I am not sure what to make out of this. I like the Rihannsu story better and in my opinion it makes more sense then most of the stuff in ENT. (Starting with the 'upside down Akira' NX-01.)
If I had a vote in there I would recommend to adopt the book as canon and throw the whole ENT canon out of the airlock (not a big loss).
This is where the Vulcan's Soul series comes in. Vulcan's Soul took the lore as presented by "The Romulan Way" and updated it to account for the Remans and the other discrepancies between it and current Trek. It also provided explinations for the differences between the Rihannsu Romulans and the TNG Romulans. Long story short, instead of it being one ideological group that left Vulcan as portrayed in "The Romulan Way" there were a bunch of different ones. The Rihannsu Romulans were basically the Followers of S'Task and a few of their allied groups, and that faction was basically dominate in the TOS era. Opposing them were a group primarily led by a group known as the "Technocrats" who were basically the former ruling elite of Vulcan who had become displaced by the Surakians, these Technocrats and their descended groups were the dominate forces in the TNG era. It more complicated and with more sides than that, but Vulcan's Soul does provide an explination and bridge between "The Romulan Way" and modern Trek, and I think is technically part of the larger Trek novel "canon" that's been developed.
I would actually go so far as to say STO draws more from Vulcan's Soul than the Rihannsu series when it comes to lore, though Cryptic does draw heavily on the Rihanhu language Duane developed for the Rihannsu series (a thing I think both sides can agree is a good thing, as it helps make the Romulans distinct when it comes to names and the like).
We've been quite open about it. The point is that the only reason we fight back is because you scream and moan and shove your view of Romulans in our face and denigrate our equally valid views.
I'll believe it when I see it. When we don't have a thirteen page topic on the front page with Tal'Diann goons insisting that the IRW prefix not be available for the T6 D'deridex....basically out of spite. You might have a point.
When someone can ask for more TNG-era Romulan representation in the game without Tal'Diann supporters or their ilk swooping in to compare them to TRIBBLE/Stalinists/KKK members, you might have a point.
When every time a variation of 'traditional Romulans' can be brought up without Protogoth coming in to 'remind' everyone that they are a perversion of 'real' Romulan culture and/or call for their eradication you might have a point.
But until that happens, I find your insistence that you are somehow victims of the RSE supporters on these forums to be bizarre and absurd.
I'll believe it when I see it. When we don't have a thirteen page topic on the front page with Tal'Diann goons insisting that the IRW prefix not be available for the T6 D'deridex....basically out of spite. You might have a point.
When someone can ask for more TNG-era Romulan representation in the game without Tal'Diann supporters or their ilk swooping in to compare them to TRIBBLE/Stalinists/KKK members, you might have a point.
When every time a variation of 'traditional Romulans' can be brought up without Protogoth coming in to 'remind' everyone that they are a perversion of 'real' Romulan culture and/or call for their eradication you might have a point.
But until that happens, I find your insistence that you are somehow victims of the RSE supporters on these forums to be bizarre and absurd.
I think that's way blown out of proportion. The Tal'Diann members on the STO forums have usually been pretty respectful and helpful. I usually don't agree with them, but they've been mostly civil whenever they try to dogpile me.
And honestly, I'll be the first to admit that STO is big enough for people who like the RR and people who like the RSE.
They have their convictions, and they defend them with great zeal. They play to win. I think that's admirable. Even if I think they're naive.
I'll believe it when I see it. When we don't have a thirteen page topic on the front page with Tal'Diann goons insisting that the IRW prefix not be available for the T6 D'deridex....basically out of spite. You might have a point.
When someone can ask for more TNG-era Romulan representation in the game without Tal'Diann supporters or their ilk swooping in to compare them to TRIBBLE/Stalinists/KKK members, you might have a point.
When every time a variation of 'traditional Romulans' can be brought up without Protogoth coming in to 'remind' everyone that they are a perversion of 'real' Romulan culture and/or call for their eradication you might have a point.
But until that happens, I find your insistence that you are somehow victims of the RSE supporters on these forums to be bizarre and absurd.
Grow up and stop trying to turn this thread into another battle. You came in here and expressed your rather provocative opinion, knowing that it would likely result in protests, and then you continued trying to provoke, and now the thread is, like so many others, being turned into another victim routine by the poor mistreated reactionary thugs who want nothing but to force others into subjugation to a gang of incompetent bully boys (and girls), and expressions of resistance and protest, followed by more victim-playing by you.
I have asked you on several occasions to either come to a thread I made specifically to discuss these things or make a thread of your own for the purpose, but each time, it has been the same TRIBBLE, with you refusing to do so and continuing your efforts to derail discussions which have little or nothing to do with your blatantly asinine contentions.
I'll believe it when I see it. When we don't have a thirteen page topic on the front page with Tal'Diann goons insisting that the IRW prefix not be available for the T6 D'deridex....basically out of spite. You might have a point.
The D'khellra is a Republic-designed warbird. Welcome to being the RSE - you haven't developed a new ship since you Borg-ified a D'deridex.
You don't get to say "bugger off" to the Republic, and then cry foul when the stuff isn't tailored to non-Republic players' head canon.
When every time a variation of 'traditional Romulans' can be brought up without Protogoth coming in to 'remind' everyone that they are a perversion of 'real' Romulan culture and/or call for their eradication you might have a point.
Toreth, Jarok, and the Romulan Admiral from "The Chase" are three great examples of Romulans that are closer to the TOS Romulans than the Tal'Shiar. Remember: the majority of what we see of the Romulans in the series is on the viewscreen of a Starfleet ship. Note how whenever we see Romulans in-person, they're often a lot more honourable and personable than their "I'll trick you and kill you" persona that they play out when facing a Starfleet captain.
Plus Jarok, the Unificationists, Donatra, and so on... there was plenty of dissent against the excesses and corruption of the RSE viewable on-screen.
Protogoth is right, because she did her research. And because I also did my own research, I came to the same general conclusions about Romulan society as she did.
So you may want to read a couple things, and realize that the Romulans aren't just the laughing stock that Tomalak, Sela, and the Tal'Shiar made them out to be.
I love Diane's Books. I reread the entire series to prepare for Legacy of Romulus to get myself in the right Rihannsu mindset.
Edit: also, it feels like Diane's Rihannsu and TNG's Romulans could coexist in the same people, just as we have multiple cultures here on Earth.
Romulans should absolutely be diverse in their outlooks and behavior. However, I think the path that Cryptic decided to go down with their LoR storyline and which many Rihhansu fans on these forums seem to adore-one in which the TNG Romulans are something to be fought, defeated, killed and marginalized rather than something that can actually be played as....that I have an issue with.
Many of my favorite Romulan characters don't fit the stereotype of the TNG Romulan that gets floated around these forums (which I think is completely baseless) Toreth-my personal favorite, has actually been brought up before as 'proof' of a TOS/Rihannsu Romulan in TNG.
It's the assertion that the militant/xenophobic/arrogant tendencies of TNG-era Romulans are somehow illegitimate and that 'real' Romulans have always been like in the novels that I find....vexing.
I think that's way blown out of proportion. The Tal'Diann members on the STO forums have usually been pretty respectful and helpful. I usually don't agree with them, but they've been mostly civil whenever they try to dogpile me.
And honestly, I'll be the first to admit that STO is big enough for people who like the RR and people who like the RSE.
They have their convictions, and they defend them with great zeal. They play to win.
I honestly have no beef with the RSE. Every story needs villains, and I myself have an RSE character. I respect other players. What I don't respect is people telling me that I'm wrong simply because the Romulans I like aren't THEIR Romulans. That my Romulans shouldn't exist simply because they subscribe to the No True Scotsmen fallacy.
The RSE is okay. Those who defend it spitefully are not.
I find the subject of the Romulans from the novels and the Romulans from the TV shows and movies to be eerily similar to the subject of the Star Wars movies and the Expanded Universe.
I think there's a disconnect somewhere when you're suggested to read the EU material between the movies in order for everything to "make sense".
But I don't think that one should necessarily have higher value than the other, particularly in a setting the borrows from both 'hard' canon and 'soft' canon. STO uses both, so both should really get equal respect and treatment.
But whenever you get people who like the idea of Chewbacca having a moon dropped on him and people who prefer Chewbacca alive together in the same room, nine times out of ten you'll get cliques (and maybe some blood) drawn. That's just the nature of fandom, and it's not unique to Star Trek (or Star Wars).
Grow up and stop trying to turn this thread into another battle. You came in here and expressed your rather provocative opinion, knowing that it would likely result in protests, and then you continued trying to provoke, and now the thread is, like so many others, being turned into another victim routine by the poor mistreated reactionary thugs who want nothing but to force others into subjugation to a gang of incompetent bully boys (and girls), and expressions of resistance and protest, followed by more victim-playing by you.
I have asked you on several occasions to either come to a thread I made specifically to discuss these things or make a thread of your own for the purpose, but each time, it has been the same TRIBBLE, with you refusing to do so and continuing your efforts to derail discussions which have little or nothing to do with your blatantly asinine contentions.
If memory serves, it was Tolmarius who decided to cry 'persecution' not me.
You'll have to remind me when the last time you suggested we make a thread specifically for dogpiling me. Because it must have been buried in the page-long diatribes of what a horrible person I must be and I skimmed over it. Definately never gotten any PMs from you. At any rate, I don't think it would be sufficient, considering three at once doesn't seem to be.
I think that's way blown out of proportion. The Tal'Diann members on the STO forums have usually been pretty respectful and helpful. I usually don't agree with them, but they've been mostly civil whenever they try to dogpile me.
And honestly, I'll be the first to admit that STO is big enough for people who like the RR and people who like the RSE.
They have their convictions, and they defend them with great zeal. They play to win. I think that's admirable. Even if I think they're naive.
I actually agree with many things Protogoth says outside of the Romulan Gameplay Forum, but anything critical about the Republic/Duane novels? That's jumping headfirst into a vat of nitroglycerin (as the current state of this thread-yet again, demonstrates)
Already today my positions have been compared to 'goosestepping' and called a 'thug', so there's number 2 off that list.
I think there's a disconnect somewhere when you're suggested to read the EU material between the movies in order for everything to "make sense".
But I don't think that one should necessarily have higher value than the other, particularly in a setting the borrows from both 'hard' canon and 'soft' canon. STO uses both, so both should really get equal respect and treatment.
Good point, however-I don't think that because it's soft canon it should necessarily have equal screentime in STO with the hard canon stuff. After all, it's also 'soft canon' that Sela helped Picard fight alien ninjas (in a comic I think it was?). As much as I'd love to see the Shrike class from Armada appear or a reference to Klingon Academy....I don't think they should have equal 'weight' compared to the show when it comes to what to include and what not to. Something subtler like how they integrated parts of the 'Destiny' series would be my preference. mention Honor swords (heck, have them as usable weapons) name drop some aspects of the Rihannsu novels, include some Romulan NPCs with a decidedly-Duane-ish outlook on Romulan culture...But the current situation where almost everything that could be considered TNG-sih about the Republic is marginalized or worse-treated as something that has to be overthrown and destroyed. It's not a good balance, IMO.
If memory serves, it was Tolmarius who decided to cry 'persecution' not me.
You'll have to remind me when the last time you suggested we make a thread specifically for dogpiling me. Because it must have been buried in the page-long diatribes of what a horrible person I must be and I skimmed over it. Definately never gotten any PMs from you. At any rate, I don't think it would be sufficient, considering three at once doesn't seem to be.
I actually agree with many things Protogoth says outside of the Romulan Gameplay Forum, but anything critical about the Republic/Duane novels? That's jumping headfirst into a vat of nitroglycerin (as the current state of this thread-yet again, demonstrates)
Already today my positions have been compared to 'goosestepping' and called a 'thug', so there's number 2 off that list.
#1: I didn't cry persecution. Saying that you take extremem exception to people prefering the Republic of the Empire and being vocal about it is nowhere near the same as pretending to be persecuted.
#2: You were the one bringing up goostepping, and TRIBBLE. Protogoth called you a thug because of your manner of dealing with people who don't agree with you. Wielding your views as a cudgel to try and beat us from the forum like seditious pamphleteers.
You say that like it's a bad thing. They've given me much more colorful labels. Wear it as a badge of pride.
If you like villainous romulans, be prepared to be called villainous.
Well, I think there's a difference between attacks on the Player character and the Player. The TNG-DS9-ENT Romulans were clearly modeled after various authoritarian governments. I am not a member of any of those governments, nor do I share their ideals.
Calling Loreth, captain of the Khazara a thug? perfectly valid observation
Calling me, catoblepasbeta a thug? Now that's just being a meanie weenie ...and it gets old...fast
Good point, however-I don't think that because it's soft canon it should necessarily have equal screentime in STO with the hard canon stuff. After all, it's also 'soft canon' that Sela helped Picard fight alien ninjas (in a comic I think it was?). As much as I'd love to see the Shrike class from Armada appear or a reference to Klingon Academy....I don't think they should have equal 'weight' compared to the show when it comes to what to include and what not to. Something subtler like how they integrated parts of the 'Destiny' series would be my preference. mention Honor swords (heck, have them as usable weapons) name drop some aspects of the Rihannsu novels, include some Romulan NPCs with a decidedly-Duane-ish outlook on Romulan culture...But the current situation where almost everything that could be considered TNG-sih about the Republic is marginalized or worse-treated as something that has to be overthrown and destroyed. It's not a good balance, IMO.
Its marginalized in the Republic for a reason. The TNG Romulans were supposed to be villains. Someone had to be a looming threat, since the Klingons were now good guys, more or less. But the Romulans in STO needed to be good guys. So they turned to a less antagonistic portrayal. Ergo...Rihannsu.
Calling me, catoblepasbeta a thug? Now that's just being a meanie weenie ...and it gets old...fast
Well, you wouldn't be the first person to have trouble differentiating between what they say in character and out of character. Some of what they say blurs the lines and I'm under the impression only they know for certain which is which.
That said, if you can dish it out, you can take it.
Well, you wouldn't be the first person to have trouble differentiating between what they say in character and out of character. Some of what they say blurs the lines and I'm under the impression only they know for certain which is which.
That said, if you can dish it out, you can take it.
...all because you prefer to goosestep and kiss Sela's derriere, strut around like a miles gloriosus and generally behave like a petulant anti-Vulcan, due to your preference for a later imagining, which is probably the first Star Trek you ever watched. For some of us, 19 years of the original ideal, developed further by Ms. Duane, trumps the newfangled, poorly acted, and poorly written kitsch of the newer series ...
....Earlier today, she wasn't exactly speaking in character.
Which is all fine and dandy, but if they are going to whine about me persecuting the poor Rihannsu supporters and accuse me of unfairly mudflinging, then they are absurdly hipocritical when they dump stuff like this on me.
We've been quite open about it. The point is that the only reason we fight back is because you scream and moan and shove your view of Romulans in our face and denigrate our equally valid views.
Hence 'I'll believe it when I see it'
Tal'Diann is always raring for a fight and never steps back from mud flinging. So to consistently claim the 'moral high ground' in situations like this is ....insanely deluded IMO.
All things considered, I think I have been rather restrained
Its marginalized in the Republic for a reason. The TNG Romulans were supposed to be villains. Someone had to be a looming threat, since the Klingons were now good guys, more or less. But the Romulans in STO needed to be good guys. So they turned to a less antagonistic portrayal. Ergo...Rihannsu.
Perhaps, but I do not believe that either the Klingons or the Romulans being 'good guy' factions was a necessary feature of STO. The Klingons endured for quite some time despite being a 'bad guy' faction and despite the deck being stacked against them from the start with the comparative lack of content, (originally) having to level a fed in order to even play a KDF member, etc. So I don't think it was strictly a requirement for playable Romulans to be good guys-plenty of other games had 'villainous' Romulans as playable.
Calling me, catoblepasbeta a thug? Now that's just being a meanie weenie ...and it gets old...fast
THe calling you a thug was because of your recent words. We have never called you a TRIBBLE, or a goosesteper, or a thug simply because you like TNG Romulans. We've aclled them that, but not you.
THe calling you a thug was because of your recent words. We have never called you a TRIBBLE, or a goosesteper, or a thug simply because you like TNG Romulans. We've aclled them that, but not you.
Check the Protogoth quote from today in the post above you. I assure you it is sadly not an isolated incident.
Although I think we both mutually enjoyed (much earlier, when LoR was much newer) our little pseudo-RP spats between us on the forums, that is most assuredly OOC. And not altogether atypical or unexpected.
This is where the Vulcan's Soul series comes in. Vulcan's Soul took the lore as presented by "The Romulan Way" and updated it to account for the Remans and the other discrepancies between it and current Trek. It also provided explinations for the differences between the Rihannsu Romulans and the TNG Romulans. Long story short, instead of it being one ideological group that left Vulcan as portrayed in "The Romulan Way" there were a bunch of different ones. The Rihannsu Romulans were basically the Followers of S'Task and a few of their allied groups, and that faction was basically dominate in the TOS era. Opposing them were a group primarily led by a group known as the "Technocrats" who were basically the former ruling elite of Vulcan who had become displaced by the Surakians, these Technocrats and their descended groups were the dominate forces in the TNG era. It more complicated and with more sides than that, but Vulcan's Soul does provide an explination and bridge between "The Romulan Way" and modern Trek, and I think is technically part of the larger Trek novel "canon" that's been developed.
I would actually go so far as to say STO draws more from Vulcan's Soul than the Rihannsu series when it comes to lore, though Cryptic does draw heavily on the Rihanhu language Duane developed for the Rihannsu series (a thing I think both sides can agree is a good thing, as it helps make the Romulans distinct when it comes to names and the like).
Interesting, I found the mnei'sahe Duane wrote about with it's fluid meaning could easily be applied to TNG Romulans as well. In fact, IIRC there are some instances of betrayal and backstabbing within those very books that illustrate that.
It's just such a shame that to get to that post I had to go through another Romulan hostile fighting thread Can't we even talk about books without Romulan-Romulan wars?
Jeckle here is like a man who knowingly walks down the streets of Boston expounding on what a poor excuse for a baseball team the Red Sox are, what stupid people their fans are for liking them, and how everyone really ought to be Yankees fans, and then acts shocked and agrieved and complains about how mistreated he is when people react negatively to his deliberately provocative statements.
Comments
Well, Cryptic clearly disagrees with you. And because we're playing in Cryptic's story, it's worth reading the Rihannsu series. The more you read of the Romulan lore that's available, the more little references you can pick out and understand in STO.
In your opinion. In mine, the Romulans would have been greatly enhanced by a dose of Rihannsu. They were ignored because the show needed some sneaky mustache twirling villains, and the Ferengi were too comic relief for that role by then.
It's not a tenuous connection at all. Your dislike of TOS Romulans and the best novel series based on them is absolute dreck, all because you prefer to goosestep and kiss Sela's derriere, strut around like a miles gloriosus and generally behave like a petulant anti-Vulcan, due to your preference for a later imagining, which is probably the first Star Trek you ever watched. For some of us, 19 years of the original ideal, developed further by Ms. Duane, trumps the newfangled, poorly acted, and poorly written kitsch of the newer series (TNG was for at least the first 2-3 seasons, pure TRIBBLE with only a few pearls here and there, and there's still plenty of TRIBBLE in it even after it improved to a tolerable state, and it wasn't till DS9 that we got a truly good Trek series again). The TOS Romulans were not anti-Vulcans. They were simply different from the Vulcans. Or, more accurately, the Vulcans were different from them (since it was the Vulcans who changed, embracing a new worldview and abandoning the old ways).
And Mr. Roddenberry's chief objection was over a very small portion of her first book taken out of context, wherein she said that the Rihannsu were never Romulans. The intent of that statement would be the same as if I said "The Saami were never Lapps." A people is not defined or named by outsiders, but by themselves. That was the point she was making, and somehow it got taken out of context by someone who showed that to Mr. Roddenberry without bothering to give him the full picture. So you can drop this line now.
I like the cut of your jib.
And, your comments are really making me want to give these books a shot... at least begin with the omnibus (only $15 for four books!).
One of the biggest differences is the first contact between Humans and Romulans.
The book was written before Star Trek: Nemesis and before ENT. So it does not really explain the physical differences between Remans/Romulans. Also in the book the Rihannsu were still limited to their own system and had limited warp flight capability when they first met a human explorer ship with disastrous results.
ENT established that the Romulans already had a sizeable empire and had in fact begun to infiltrate the society of their Vulcan cousins.
I am not sure what to make out of this. I like the Rihannsu story better and in my opinion it makes more sense then most of the stuff in ENT. (Starting with the 'upside down Akira' NX-01.)
If I had a vote in there I would recommend to adopt the book as canon and throw the whole ENT canon out of the airlock (not a big loss).
Not going to take the bait this time.
*Ahem*
"Gene felt that Diane's book was not a "Star Trek"
book at all but something completely unrelated, with McCoy thrown in in
order to sell it as a "Star Trek" story."-Richard Arnold
It was also branded as an "alternate Star Trek universe" by Pocket Books.
So it's not even "soft canon" really.
It's fine that she has her fans and all, I wouldn't want to take something they enjoy away from them. But quite frankly, the oft repeated insistence that Her works supersede all else in regards to Romulans is quite, frankly-ridiculous.
Lastly:
"Some people have the idea that my work is somehow being slighted, or that I'm being done some kind of wrong, by the filmed version of Trek not taking my stuff into account. While I take their concern for me very kindly, I still think the idea is fallacious."
-Diane Duane
Take it from the woman herself. You like Rihhansu, good. You don't have to stomp all over everyone else to do that. The existence of people who are fans of the TNG-DS9 Romulans but not of her fan universe Romulans is not a heretical screed that needs to be stamped out or 'corrected' wherever it appears. Leave that kind of fanatical behavior to the Tal SHiar, where it belongs.
I thought they'd never get around to telling us.
It was written before Nemesis, so there was no real Reman species at the time. Just Romulans who lived on Remus.
We've been quite open about it. The point is that the only reason we fight back is because you scream and moan and shove your view of Romulans in our face and denigrate our equally valid views.
This is where the Vulcan's Soul series comes in. Vulcan's Soul took the lore as presented by "The Romulan Way" and updated it to account for the Remans and the other discrepancies between it and current Trek. It also provided explinations for the differences between the Rihannsu Romulans and the TNG Romulans. Long story short, instead of it being one ideological group that left Vulcan as portrayed in "The Romulan Way" there were a bunch of different ones. The Rihannsu Romulans were basically the Followers of S'Task and a few of their allied groups, and that faction was basically dominate in the TOS era. Opposing them were a group primarily led by a group known as the "Technocrats" who were basically the former ruling elite of Vulcan who had become displaced by the Surakians, these Technocrats and their descended groups were the dominate forces in the TNG era. It more complicated and with more sides than that, but Vulcan's Soul does provide an explination and bridge between "The Romulan Way" and modern Trek, and I think is technically part of the larger Trek novel "canon" that's been developed.
I would actually go so far as to say STO draws more from Vulcan's Soul than the Rihannsu series when it comes to lore, though Cryptic does draw heavily on the Rihanhu language Duane developed for the Rihannsu series (a thing I think both sides can agree is a good thing, as it helps make the Romulans distinct when it comes to names and the like).
When someone can ask for more TNG-era Romulan representation in the game without Tal'Diann supporters or their ilk swooping in to compare them to TRIBBLE/Stalinists/KKK members, you might have a point.
When every time a variation of 'traditional Romulans' can be brought up without Protogoth coming in to 'remind' everyone that they are a perversion of 'real' Romulan culture and/or call for their eradication you might have a point.
But until that happens, I find your insistence that you are somehow victims of the RSE supporters on these forums to be bizarre and absurd.
Edit: also, it feels like Diane's Rihannsu and TNG's Romulans could coexist in the same people, just as we have multiple cultures here on Earth.
I think that's way blown out of proportion. The Tal'Diann members on the STO forums have usually been pretty respectful and helpful. I usually don't agree with them, but they've been mostly civil whenever they try to dogpile me.
And honestly, I'll be the first to admit that STO is big enough for people who like the RR and people who like the RSE.
They have their convictions, and they defend them with great zeal. They play to win. I think that's admirable. Even if I think they're naive.
Grow up and stop trying to turn this thread into another battle. You came in here and expressed your rather provocative opinion, knowing that it would likely result in protests, and then you continued trying to provoke, and now the thread is, like so many others, being turned into another victim routine by the poor mistreated reactionary thugs who want nothing but to force others into subjugation to a gang of incompetent bully boys (and girls), and expressions of resistance and protest, followed by more victim-playing by you.
I have asked you on several occasions to either come to a thread I made specifically to discuss these things or make a thread of your own for the purpose, but each time, it has been the same TRIBBLE, with you refusing to do so and continuing your efforts to derail discussions which have little or nothing to do with your blatantly asinine contentions.
The D'khellra is a Republic-designed warbird. Welcome to being the RSE - you haven't developed a new ship since you Borg-ified a D'deridex.
You don't get to say "bugger off" to the Republic, and then cry foul when the stuff isn't tailored to non-Republic players' head canon.
Toreth, Jarok, and the Romulan Admiral from "The Chase" are three great examples of Romulans that are closer to the TOS Romulans than the Tal'Shiar. Remember: the majority of what we see of the Romulans in the series is on the viewscreen of a Starfleet ship. Note how whenever we see Romulans in-person, they're often a lot more honourable and personable than their "I'll trick you and kill you" persona that they play out when facing a Starfleet captain.
Plus Jarok, the Unificationists, Donatra, and so on... there was plenty of dissent against the excesses and corruption of the RSE viewable on-screen.
Protogoth is right, because she did her research. And because I also did my own research, I came to the same general conclusions about Romulan society as she did.
So you may want to read a couple things, and realize that the Romulans aren't just the laughing stock that Tomalak, Sela, and the Tal'Shiar made them out to be.
Many of my favorite Romulan characters don't fit the stereotype of the TNG Romulan that gets floated around these forums (which I think is completely baseless) Toreth-my personal favorite, has actually been brought up before as 'proof' of a TOS/Rihannsu Romulan in TNG.
It's the assertion that the militant/xenophobic/arrogant tendencies of TNG-era Romulans are somehow illegitimate and that 'real' Romulans have always been like in the novels that I find....vexing.
I honestly have no beef with the RSE. Every story needs villains, and I myself have an RSE character. I respect other players. What I don't respect is people telling me that I'm wrong simply because the Romulans I like aren't THEIR Romulans. That my Romulans shouldn't exist simply because they subscribe to the No True Scotsmen fallacy.
The RSE is okay. Those who defend it spitefully are not.
I think there's a disconnect somewhere when you're suggested to read the EU material between the movies in order for everything to "make sense".
But I don't think that one should necessarily have higher value than the other, particularly in a setting the borrows from both 'hard' canon and 'soft' canon. STO uses both, so both should really get equal respect and treatment.
But whenever you get people who like the idea of Chewbacca having a moon dropped on him and people who prefer Chewbacca alive together in the same room, nine times out of ten you'll get cliques (and maybe some blood) drawn. That's just the nature of fandom, and it's not unique to Star Trek (or Star Wars).
If memory serves, it was Tolmarius who decided to cry 'persecution' not me.
You'll have to remind me when the last time you suggested we make a thread specifically for dogpiling me. Because it must have been buried in the page-long diatribes of what a horrible person I must be and I skimmed over it. Definately never gotten any PMs from you. At any rate, I don't think it would be sufficient, considering three at once doesn't seem to be.
I actually agree with many things Protogoth says outside of the Romulan Gameplay Forum, but anything critical about the Republic/Duane novels? That's jumping headfirst into a vat of nitroglycerin (as the current state of this thread-yet again, demonstrates)
Already today my positions have been compared to 'goosestepping' and called a 'thug', so there's number 2 off that list.
Good point, however-I don't think that because it's soft canon it should necessarily have equal screentime in STO with the hard canon stuff. After all, it's also 'soft canon' that Sela helped Picard fight alien ninjas (in a comic I think it was?). As much as I'd love to see the Shrike class from Armada appear or a reference to Klingon Academy....I don't think they should have equal 'weight' compared to the show when it comes to what to include and what not to. Something subtler like how they integrated parts of the 'Destiny' series would be my preference. mention Honor swords (heck, have them as usable weapons) name drop some aspects of the Rihannsu novels, include some Romulan NPCs with a decidedly-Duane-ish outlook on Romulan culture...But the current situation where almost everything that could be considered TNG-sih about the Republic is marginalized or worse-treated as something that has to be overthrown and destroyed. It's not a good balance, IMO.
You say that like it's a bad thing. They've given me much more colorful labels. Wear it as a badge of pride.
If you like villainous romulans, be prepared to be called villainous.
#1: I didn't cry persecution. Saying that you take extremem exception to people prefering the Republic of the Empire and being vocal about it is nowhere near the same as pretending to be persecuted.
#2: You were the one bringing up goostepping, and TRIBBLE. Protogoth called you a thug because of your manner of dealing with people who don't agree with you. Wielding your views as a cudgel to try and beat us from the forum like seditious pamphleteers.
Calling Loreth, captain of the Khazara a thug? perfectly valid observation
Calling me, catoblepasbeta a thug? Now that's just being a meanie weenie
Its marginalized in the Republic for a reason. The TNG Romulans were supposed to be villains. Someone had to be a looming threat, since the Klingons were now good guys, more or less. But the Romulans in STO needed to be good guys. So they turned to a less antagonistic portrayal. Ergo...Rihannsu.
Well, you wouldn't be the first person to have trouble differentiating between what they say in character and out of character. Some of what they say blurs the lines and I'm under the impression only they know for certain which is which.
That said, if you can dish it out, you can take it.
I'm pretty sure when Protogoth said
....Earlier today, she wasn't exactly speaking in character.
Which is all fine and dandy, but if they are going to whine about me persecuting the poor Rihannsu supporters and accuse me of unfairly mudflinging, then they are absurdly hipocritical when they dump stuff like this on me.
Hence 'I'll believe it when I see it'
Tal'Diann is always raring for a fight and never steps back from mud flinging. So to consistently claim the 'moral high ground' in situations like this is ....insanely deluded IMO.
All things considered, I think I have been rather restrained
Perhaps, but I do not believe that either the Klingons or the Romulans being 'good guy' factions was a necessary feature of STO. The Klingons endured for quite some time despite being a 'bad guy' faction and despite the deck being stacked against them from the start with the comparative lack of content, (originally) having to level a fed in order to even play a KDF member, etc. So I don't think it was strictly a requirement for playable Romulans to be good guys-plenty of other games had 'villainous' Romulans as playable.
THe calling you a thug was because of your recent words. We have never called you a TRIBBLE, or a goosesteper, or a thug simply because you like TNG Romulans. We've aclled them that, but not you.
Check the Protogoth quote from today in the post above you. I assure you it is sadly not an isolated incident.
Although I think we both mutually enjoyed (much earlier, when LoR was much newer) our little pseudo-RP spats between us on the forums, that is most assuredly OOC. And not altogether atypical or unexpected.
Interesting, I found the mnei'sahe Duane wrote about with it's fluid meaning could easily be applied to TNG Romulans as well. In fact, IIRC there are some instances of betrayal and backstabbing within those very books that illustrate that.
It's just such a shame that to get to that post I had to go through another Romulan hostile fighting thread