To save PvP Cryptic needs to stop this exotic damage charade. "Who cares about PvP?" - that's a legit question. However the answer isn't "Nobody, so let's just add god mode abilities". It makes things worse.
Say what now?
Your deluding yourself big time if you think nerfing the living **** out of partgen builds is going to in any way whatsoever "save" PvP. :rolleyes:
If anything energy weapons have been recieving more love than ever before from Cryptic since DR was released and onwards.
Say what now?
Your deluding yourself big time if you think nerfing the living **** out of partgen builds is going to in any way whatsoever "save" PvP. :rolleyes:
If anything energy weapons have been recieving more love than ever before from Cryptic since DR was released and onwards.
Partigens are just one of the many, but since we're talking partigens in this thread it would be even more deluding to talk about other things, don't you think? :rolleyes:
I need to get to him. I can't just leave him out there alone. - Sometimes you've got to makes sacrifices, Lara. You can't save everyone. - I know about sacrifices. - No, you know about loss. Sacrifice is a choice you make. Loss is a choice made for you. - I can't choose to let him die, Roth.
To save PvP Cryptic needs to stop this exotic damage charade. "Who cares about PvP?" - that's a legit question. However the answer isn't "Nobody, so let's just add god mode abilities". It makes things worse.
If specializations weren't such a grind, I think I'd still PvP.
Anyway, FBP isn't God-mode, don't damage the FBPer and you don't die. Time your buffs, use teamwork, switch to torpedoes/mines. Those are all reasonable counters, correct?
I understand that Science is supposed to be the Utility class, with Engi being the tank and tac the dps. Only problem is the entire game is geared towards pushing max dps. Cruisers have the power and weapon banks to keep up, science has not only less weapons, but over half their abilities do no actual damage or only very small amounts as a side effect of whatever utility effect they have.
Nerfing PartGens takes away the only truly viable path to damage that science have in a game that cares about nothing but damage.
Can a partgen build get 30k dps, sure, escorts and cruisers can go well beyond that with rather a bit less effort put into the build. (ok so not that much less effort, but the key points of a high dps partgen build are very expensive and rare to obtain.)
What cryptic need to do is make utility more useful and focus less on 'moar dps' OR give the pure utility powers a damage component to that thetrer is an alternative to PartGens.
I agree, to an extant, Sci ships shouldn't be 'gimped for DPS'. However, Sci ships are Support ships and shouldn't be able to keep in line with the 'top DPSers.
From my experience, most of the disliked STF changes (the ones that have resulted in the 'we need moar DPS' statement), have actually been adjusted to promote the use of crowd control abilities. For instance ISA, the HP of enemies has increased and the number of them increased, most people would say "DPS them faster!" when the less obvious solution would be to drop a grav well and crowd control them.
Specifc missions aside, Science ships shouldn't match up with Cruisers or Escorts for DPS, they have all kinds of clever tricks available to them, THAT is their advantage over other classes.
All 3 setups have substantial time and dil invested into them
Build 4 Partigenboat : mk12 omnis + mk14 torps, 2x mk12 fleet PG, 2x VR mk12 PG, 1x mk12 Exotic PG [Kin) - various mk12 exotic boosting uni and rep consoles - PG Manipulator
This is practially slapped together with stock gear (except for the torps).
Soooo.. Does it compute that the build with the least time and dil invested into it, matches the Epic builds in PvE, and outclasses them by far in PvP?
Like I said, it might be related to me exclusively flying a Tactical Captain... It could just be the Tac captains abilities and have too high an effect on PG powers...
Yeah..... I'm going to call BS on this whole post. :rolleyes:
Building a high end partigen boat takes substantially more time, dilithium and energy credits to build than your run of the mill cannon boat or beam boat.
And even then a partigen boat is "never" going to be challenging beam boats on top end DPS builds.
But that does not mean they can't be damn good ships in their own right.
Building a high end partigen boat takes substantially more time, dilithium and energy credits to build than your run of the mill cannon boat or beam boat.
Not quite; the traits and DOFFs needed for a high-end Beam Boat (Inspirational Leader, Zemok), and the weapons (Epic CrtDx3/Pen AP DBBs) actually cost substantially more on the exchange than do the components needed for a high-end PartGen build (which only requires Graga Mal and two expensive-but-no-longer-prohibitively-expensive consoles).
I like the way a PartGen boat flies; it's different and fun. I don't think it needs a nerf, and tbf I don't think it actually received one from the changeover.
Yeah, I know you lost about 3K DPS on your build, but...seriously dude, drop GW3 and get either TBR3 or DRB3. The death beam is fun!
I agree, to an extant, Sci ships shouldn't be 'gimped for DPS'. However, Sci ships are Support ships and shouldn't be able to keep in line with the 'top DPSers.
Science ships shouldn't match up with Cruisers or Escorts for DPS, they have all kinds of clever tricks available to them, THAT is their advantage over other classes.
They already don't match Cruisers nor Escorts for DPS. In the hands of a good pilot, a Cruiser or an Escort will out DPS a real Science ship.
I really do not see the problem with particle/exotic damage, or science ships for that matter. The issue comes from Tac captain skills buffing Science damage. I really think some high-end R&D traits should be exclusive to certain classes. Particle Manipulator is one of those.
Not quite; the traits and DOFFs needed for a high-end Beam Boat (Inspirational Leader, Zemok), and the weapons (Epic CrtDx3/Pen AP DBBs) actually cost substantially more on the exchange than do the components needed for a high-end PartGen build (which only requires Graga Mal and two expensive-but-no-longer-prohibitively-expensive consoles).
Thing is, no one really flies an exclusively exotic-damage dealing ship. They still use weapons, and those weapons will need to be good. So on an exotic build, you'll still need to invest on weapons, invest on some of those expensive traits and invest on some of those expensive DOffs other than Graga Mal. Try flying an exotic damage build without weapons and see how much it parses.
All 3 setups have substantial time and dil invested into them
Build 4 Partigenboat : mk12 omnis + mk14 torps, 2x mk12 fleet PG, 2x VR mk12 PG, 1x mk12 Exotic PG [Kin) - various mk12 exotic boosting uni and rep consoles - PG Manipulator
This is practially slapped together with stock gear (except for the torps).
Soooo.. Does it compute that the build with the least time and dil invested into it, matches the Epic builds in PvE, and outclasses them by far in PvP?
Like I said, it might be related to me exclusively flying a Tactical Captain... It could just be the Tac captains abilities and have too high an effect on PG powers...
So...you can build a low to mid end part gen ship easy...you want to nerf that...yet you have no problems with ships that can pull 2-4 times the dps of partgen ships easy enough?
The pinnacle of dps is what..someone said 120k? Not many people have broken 100k but it's obviously doable...I haven't heard of anyone even breaking 50k with a partgen ship...
Highest I've heard is the 40k range...so partgens can only reach 1/3rd of what the best fawboat can and yet you want to nerf it?
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
I was going to repeat myself, but I think I'll avoid that and think that threads like these will never get listened to. Plus, it has derailed on a game mode that I horrifically dislike for X and Y reasons. Saying what X and Y are would make this end up in a flame, so I'll keep them for me.
I need to get to him. I can't just leave him out there alone. - Sometimes you've got to makes sacrifices, Lara. You can't save everyone. - I know about sacrifices. - No, you know about loss. Sacrifice is a choice you make. Loss is a choice made for you. - I can't choose to let him die, Roth.
Thing is, no one really flies an exclusively exotic-damage dealing ship. They still use weapons, and those weapons will need to be good. So on an exotic build, you'll still need to invest on weapons, invest on some of those expensive traits and invest on some of those expensive DOffs other than Graga Mal. Try flying an exotic damage build without weapons and see how much it parses.
A fair point; but with torps you mostly use reputation or the crafted Plasma Emission Torpedoes. These are....substantially cheaper to purchase than an CrtDx3/Pen AP DBB. Slightly more expensive to upgrade, but not prohibitively so.
And the traits - Well, you don't necessarily need Fluidic cocoon, because you're not using primarily energy weapons (unless you're flying a BFAW/Exotic Damager).
DOFFS: Besides Graga, you're using DOFFs that can be obtained for free from Ferra or Supports.
So, yeah, while an excellent PartGen boat isn't cheap by any stretch of the imagination, I think it's a great deal cheaper than an excellent BFAW boat.
I really think some high-end R&D traits should be exclusive to certain classes. Particle Manipulator is one of those.
Sure, if you want to completely TRIBBLE over any engineer that wants to use science or engineering based partigen damage builds or any of the myriad of consoles and what not that use particle generators.
So...you can build a low to mid end part gen ship easy...you want to nerf that...yet you have no problems with ships that can pull 2-4 times the dps of partgen ships easy enough?
The pinnacle of dps is what..someone said 120k? Not many people have broken 100k but it's obviously doable...I haven't heard of anyone even breaking 50k with a partgen ship...
Highest I've heard is the 40k range...so partgens can only reach 1/3rd of what the best fawboat can and yet you want to nerf it?
Keeping in mind the lag going on:
3 people have broke 100k with the current mechanics.
44 have broke 75k+...
265 have broke 50k+...
975 have broke 30k+...
The 975 includes the 265 includes the 44 includes the 3...yadda, yadda, yadda.
* * * * *
I'm curious what 2x Sci Recluse, 2x Tac Fleet Dauntless, 1x Eng Geneva could do in a lag-free environment with a 2/2/1 (Geneva building on the Gateway and being the initial grab for the Nanites from both sides - Eng for the aggro that would involve with that many Tach Beams).
The Geneva's EWP...some Recluse EWP...all the PEPpy fun...the R-TBRs, the GWs...all the debuffing/buffing.
Probably not the best comp...was just the first thing that came to mind.
But "comp" (composition, team composition) comes into play...cause if one's going to compare stuff to the 100k+...there's a comp involved, planning, and so forth. It's not just random folks with certain builds in random groups...cause if it was, everybody would be doing it...yeah?
The top guy's flying a FPER...not sure how far one has to go for #2 on down to find anything but a Scimitar. Well obviously the FPER's the best, no? So why isn't everybody flying FPERs?
Hell, wait a minute...he was using Phasers! Why are people using AP then? DOH, /facepalm, FPER? He's a Fed not a Rom???? Why are folks rolling Roms?
A Fed in a FPER using Phasers is the top...everybody's doing it wrong!
Or maybe Ryan's just Ryan...and he could go out there with a rebreather and a broken spork to make the vast majority of us look like nubs.
Basically, comparing things...need to have a like comparison made. If one is going to look at those top three folks...to compare something, then the comparison would have to be made to what those top three folks and their teams are able to do with that thing. No?
3 people have broke 100k with the current mechanics.
44 have broke 75k+...
265 have broke 50k+...
975 have broke 30k+...
The 975 includes the 265 includes the 44 includes the 3...yadda, yadda, yadda.
* * * * *
I'm curious what 2x Sci Recluse, 2x Tac Fleet Dauntless, 1x Eng Geneva could do in a lag-free environment with a 2/2/1 (Geneva building on the Gateway and being the initial grab for the Nanites from both sides - Eng for the aggro that would involve with that many Tach Beams).
The Geneva's EWP...some Recluse EWP...all the PEPpy fun...the R-TBRs, the GWs...all the debuffing/buffing.
Probably not the best comp...was just the first thing that came to mind.
But "comp" (composition, team composition) comes into play...cause if one's going to compare stuff to the 100k+...there's a comp involved, planning, and so forth. It's not just random folks with certain builds in random groups...cause if it was, everybody would be doing it...yeah?
The top guy's flying a FPER...not sure how far one has to go for #2 on down to find anything but a Scimitar. Well obviously the FPER's the best, no? So why isn't everybody flying FPERs?
Hell, wait a minute...he was using Phasers! Why are people using AP then? DOH, /facepalm, FPER? He's a Fed not a Rom???? Why are folks rolling Roms?
A Fed in a FPER using Phasers is the top...everybody's doing it wrong!
Or maybe Ryan's just Ryan...and he could go out there with a rebreather and a broken spork to make the vast majority of us look like nubs.
Basically, comparing things...need to have a like comparison made. If one is going to look at those top three folks...to compare something, then the comparison would have to be made to what those top three folks and their teams are able to do with that thing. No?
I know...the 100k is rare...I'm just saying that FaW boats are going to much further than what a partgen boat can do...yet we should nerf part gens.
Honestly it makes me wonder if the people who want partgens nerfed aren't just people who think the only way to dps should be FaW or go home...
Some people have found ways to do good dps, other than the coveted FaW and now they want it nerfed to the ground! For fear it may get stronger and since it takes more skill to fly a partgen boat than spamming FaW all day...
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
I know...the 100k is rare...I'm just saying that FaW boats are going to much further than what a partgen boat can do...yet we should nerf part gens.
Honestly it makes me wonder if the people who want partgens nerfed aren't just people who think the only way to dps should be FaW or go home...
Some people have found ways to do good dps, other than the coveted FaW and now they want it nerfed to the ground! For fear it may get stronger and since it takes more skill to fly a partgen boat than spamming FaW all day...
I have no doubt that Partigens wouldn't top the FAW they're doing, cause they're not FAW addicts - they're DPS addicts - and if Partigens could do more, they'd do it. But it's just they're not "normal"...heh, they're outliers. And being the good human beings, we must hunt down and eliminate the different...so it turns into mocking FAW and ignoring that they're just better than the vast majority of us. If Partigens was the best, folks would mock Partigens use - if Cannons - if Torps - if in some twisted reality Mines were best, folks would mock Mines as being spammy requiring no skill. Not sure if it's part of the genetic code or a learned behavior, eh? But as humans, we're pretty good at it...
As for the complaints, I figure they're PvPers. Cause the issue isn't a DPS issue for them...it's a spike/burst issue, yeah? So it would get into a way of possibly maintaining or even increasing DPS while reducing the spike/burst of it. Where one might fiddle with the uptime vs. damage, so that there would be more uptime of lesser damage which would average out to increased DPS but reduce the spike/burst of it.
But then again, it may simply be the anti-Sci thing that's been prevalent forever amongst certain of the players that just want straight up pew pew action without all the stuff from Sci. There are folks that want it to be more like a fighter game...pew pew.
Course, I think the Science we sport is too magical...it's not very Star Trek at all. Something that might have been done a couple of times over almost 50 years is something we spam the Hell out of in this game. Same with all the healing stuff...it's just pseudo fantasy MMO stuff that's been slapped on the game. Doesn't mean I want this game just to be fighter pew pew...I'm not a fan of that either, cause that wasn't Star Trek either.
But there are just certain things that don't work anywhere near the same in PvE and PvP...and well, maybe that's just what needs to be adjusted. It's not like they haven't adjusted other things in that fashion. They have things already (and have added more) where they do X in PvP and do Y in PvE.
So perhaps that's where the adjustments need to be made, eh?
What stands out like a sore thumb? That might be a place to start, yeah?
FBP
Players spam all sorts of high damage attacks at a high rate of fire.
NPCs...er...don't.
They have low APS (attacks per second) and low damage.
Now while folks might have a cow with the thought of increasing the APS and damage of NPCs (even though it would result in a decrease of DPS from players as they suddenly became more concerned with survivability)...that wouldn't be the only way to address it, eh?
One could actually buff FBP for PvE to make it more useful there while addressing some of the concerns in PvP, eh? Course, I still go with the "hot stove" analogy....let me see if I can find that (forgotten I'd posted it but saw it from a search for something else yesterday)...
Child: Ouch, the stove is hot.
Mom: Don't touch it while it's on.
Child: Ouch, stupid stove.
Mom: What did I say?
Child: Ouch.
Mom: Don't touch it while it's on.
Child: Ouch...that hurt.
Dad: Honey, I'm sorry I bought the generic condoms.
If you're a sci captain in a part gens sci vessel, its relatively resonable dmg output.
But when a Tac Alpha boosts part gen damage skills, then they really become out of control.
Instead of nerfing partgens, nerf alpha boosting part gen skills.
This, this, this...has been the problem since launch.
The top guy's flying a FPER...not sure how far one has to go for #2 on down to find anything but a Scimitar. Well obviously the FPER's the best, no? So why isn't everybody flying FPERs?
Same reason people dislike some colors..
Hell, wait a minute...he was using Phasers! Why are people using AP then? DOH, /facepalm, FPER? He's a Fed not a Rom???? Why are folks rolling Roms?
Some people just simply like space elves.
Or maybe Ryan's just Ryan...and he could go out there with a rebreather and a broken spork to make the vast majority of us look like nubs.
Back when I was in high school, we had a teacher that valiantly rode horse and hunted down a dear by leaping off the horse and killing it with a fork. Maybe he and this Ryan person should team up and stop the iconians in a 2-man army.
Saw you had some questions, so I answered them for you in case they really weren't rhetorical.
While I still stand on particle gen doesn't need to be smashed, there's no doubt people out there who have done extraordinary things with particle gen related stuff. And no doubt these people aren't on this leaderboard that doesn't even represent all people on the game (since many don't even use these things)
I remember one guy was using a lvl 40 BOP (yep, the free one.) and was using mines (I forget what type), torpedos and DBBs. He'd speed demon across Khitomer Vortex Elite helping both sides (granted ,this is right before DR and TRIBBLE hit). Guy pretty much soloed one side of the map in a couple minutes.
But I guess if whatever that guy was doing, and others caught on, then I guess we'd be seeing a thread about nerfing mines and what not. lol.
STO forum term definitions for newbies:Piloting Skill: That thing you do where you fly around and avoid big scary green plasma balls of death. Pressing F and spacebar may also relate to skill.Taco: A very sacred thing. Do not speak I'll of the Taco or things will happen. Terrible things! Humor: Something not found here. Don't bring it. This forum is serious business.Fun: Something illegal. Don't have it and don't bring it
Where one might fiddle with the uptime vs. damage, so that there would be more uptime of lesser damage which would average out to increased DPS but reduce the spike/burst of it.
Funny you brought this up because the Particle Manipulator "nerf" did exactly the opposite of that. It increased spike damage, while maintaining average DPS.
Funny you brought this up because the Particle Manipulator "nerf" did exactly the opposite of that. It increased spike damage, while maintaining average DPS.
Yeah, that change blew my mind. In the past, they'd worked to get more of a balanced range of damage with things - even if it was higher, but they looked to reduce the yo-yo spike potential of things. They went backwards with the Particle Manipulator thing...reducing theoretical average DPS but creating a larger gap between the ends. Definitely a head scratching thing going on with what was that about....
My main runs a full partgen scryer...its beyond op, if you can't see that your in denial or your build is seriously flawed.
I would remove tac captian abilities buffing sci powers. Tacs are the only class that truely benefit from using another classes ship, i know this would upset alot of players but i cant see an alternative this far down the line without gimping actual scis. Once this is done we can reevaluate.
Alongside this something really needs to be done in PvP, sci ships can play blindfolded and win. I would say we need physical/exotic damage resist consoles, traits and/or masteries.
I will have to say I stand on the side that particle generators have gotten out of hand with there numerous buffs. As I've said in arguments to tone them down in the past between myself and a sci ship player with high part gen build...where is my 482 energy weapons training? It's not there.
The thing about sci is that is could use a bit of an overhaul though to stay viable. Disable immunities need lockout duration with visible procs so a sci ship will get better use of a properly timed viral matrix or scramble sensors.
Sci captain abilities need a little bit of a buffing such as a scaling based on up time shield hardness effect to scattering field as well as a threat generating scaling effect (would make more npc's want to fire on the sci ship where a properly times fbp could be devastating), and more active, better equipped photonic fleets. Also, with that same line of thought, sub nuc could use a buff based on secondary deflector....deteroriating could add a small dot to sub nuc, inhibiting a medium sized punch, and resonating a hull/shield heal over time. I think sci fleet is still a good power as it is.
While it may seem unfair to buff sci captain abilities while leaving the other captain abilities we must first remember some game mechanics such as shield hardening and secondary deflectors weren't introduced to the game until recently.
I think the above mentioned would make sci ships and captains more viable in both pvp and pve so long as particle generator and plasma explosion doping was toned down in the process. The current constant flow of 100% shield penetrating damage from a high part gen sci ship build it getting to be too much.
While I agree that high part gens are how sci ships do damage...I must also, say that the damage done from a grav well by a sci ship with 450+ part gens is on par/perhaps could use a small buff. The same ship using Feedback pulse though becomes op when a well equipped tac comes along and fires at it. Also, the same ship using tractor beam repulsors does far more damage than necessary. It would be my view that feedback pulse and tractor beam repulsors damage be toned down by about 60% the whole. With a hard cap being placed on feedback pulse of 100% feedback. The damage a deteriorating deflector does in high part gen is fine.
I just wanted to in here in...Of these high part gen build users that complain sci doesn't do enough damage unless they have high part gens how many of them are actually using tactical consoles in there tactical console slots with god weapons? Most of the time I look on STOACADEMY.COM for sci builds I see tac console slots filled with uni consoles and mk 2 weapons slotted with all plasma exploder part gen consoles filling the sci slots. I guess bravo for figuring out a way to get around another sci ship beating you into the ground while it has fbp up but I mean really?
I'm curious what 2x Sci Recluse, 2x Tac Fleet Dauntless, 1x Eng Geneva could do in a lag-free environment with a 2/2/1 (Geneva building on the Gateway and being the initial grab for the Nanites from both sides - Eng for the aggro that would involve with that many Tach Beams).
I'd be down to try such a run. I really think 1 recluse and 1 Dauntless on both sides simultaneously, and the Geneva holding things together in the center. Recluses debuff and aid in CCing the Spheres. I think that could be a 4 min run, maybe.
I'd drop Grav Well 3 for TBR3 and Resonant Beam since I wouldn't have to CC anymore. Heh, maybe I'd get into the 50k channel then lol.
My main runs a full partgen scryer...its beyond op, if you can't see that your in denial or your build is seriously flawed.
I would remove tac captian abilities buffing sci powers. Tacs are the only class that truely benefit from using another classes ship, i know this would upset alot of players but i cant see an alternative this far down the line without gimping actual scis. Once this is done we can reevaluate.
Alongside this something really needs to be done in PvP, sci ships can play blindfolded and win. I would say we need physical/exotic damage resist consoles, traits and/or masteries.
The only thing I see is that Intel Ships period be beyond OP. :rolleyes:
I will have to say I stand on the side that particle generators have gotten out of hand with there numerous buffs. As I've said in arguments to tone them down in the past between myself and a sci ship player with high part gen build...where is my 482 energy weapons training? It's not there.
-Translation: NERF EVERYTHING!-
Wow seriously? Your right, you don't have 482 energy weapons training.
Instead of you have Mk XIV weapons and a crapload of tac consoles and set bonuses that "directly" boosts the damage of your weapons.
Wow seriously? Your right, you don't have 482 energy weapons training.
Instead of you have Mk XIV weapons and a crapload of tac consoles and set bonuses that "directly" boosts the damage of your weapons.
Sci ships can run mk xiv weapons and tac consoles too...I would be inclined to believe that on average they don't though. If a sci ship wants to increase dps I would recommend starting there not begging the devs more more part gen buffs as I said already and again....there are too many.
Sci ships can run mk xiv weapons and tac consoles too...I would be inclined to believe that on average they don't though. If a sci ship wants to increase dps I would recommend starting there not begging the devs more more part gen buffs as I said already and again....there are too many.
Same can be said with FaW and the recent buff...
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
Recent buff though...not sure which your referring to....rebalancing to beam barrage to make it a little closer to particle manipulator?
Beam Barrage was originally balanced so it could not be stacked with FAW. They changed the duration so it can be stacked with FAW...meaning one can get to +6% Beam Bonus Damage with FAW now instead of the +2% it was originally balanced at...
I will have to say I stand on the side that particle generators have gotten out of hand with there numerous buffs. As I've said in arguments to tone them down in the past between myself and a sci ship player with high part gen build...where is my 482 energy weapons training? It's not there.
Yea...your boost for the Energy weapons comes from your tac consoles...Now Imagine..instead of adding Pgen like we do now to science slots...How about more of those boosts the constriction anchor provides (which is similar to a tac console but for exotic damage). That 23% boost to exotic is worth more that the Fleet pgen consoles..Wonder what would happen if you could stack 5 of those and each gave a 30+% boost to exotic damage...
Basically Im trying to say..If you did boost energy weapons like the pgens are right now youd be doing less damage..However..if science consoles were given the same % boost to exotic that the tac consoles give to energy weapons...That would be interesting:D Might even see Sci ships competeing for the Top DPS numbers:P
While I agree that high part gens are how sci ships do damage...I must also, say that the damage done from a grav well by a sci ship with 450+ part gens is on par/perhaps could use a small buff. The same ship using Feedback pulse though becomes op when a well equipped tac comes along and fires at it. Also, the same ship using tractor beam repulsors does far more damage than necessary. It would be my view that feedback pulse and tractor beam repulsors damage be toned down by about 60% the whole. With a hard cap being placed on feedback pulse of 100% feedback. The damage a deteriorating deflector does in high part gen is fine.
I just wanted to in here in...Of these high part gen build users that complain sci doesn't do enough damage unless they have high part gens how many of them are actually using tactical consoles in there tactical console slots with god weapons? Most of the time I look on STOACADEMY.COM for sci builds I see tac console slots filled with uni consoles and mk 2 weapons slotted with all plasma exploder part gen consoles filling the sci slots. I guess bravo for figuring out a way to get around another sci ship beating you into the ground while it has fbp up but I mean really?
Outside PVP, there really isn't a reason to nerfo exotic damage further unless it is a general damage nerf to correct power creep (that would include weapon damage as well).
Perhaps the answer for PVP is to make skills work differently in PVP. PVE works so differently, what you suggest will gimp science boats so much in PVE. If it's PVP balance you really want, then there is realyl no choice but to create a separate skill effect in PVP to PVE. I don't see that happening for quite a while though.
Beam Barrage was originally balanced so it could not be stacked with FAW. They changed the duration so it can be stacked with FAW...meaning one can get to +6% Beam Bonus Damage with FAW now instead of the +2% it was originally balanced at...
Again topic for different post, but from the looks of it.....well you be the judge.
For the record that was with the beam barrage trait slotted on my scimitar and 2 copies of a2b with 3 purple techs on active
Yea...your boost for the Energy weapons comes from your tac consoles...Now Imagine..instead of adding Pgen like we do now to science slots...How about more of those boosts the constriction anchor provides (which is similar to a tac console but for exotic damage). That 23% boost to exotic is worth more that the Fleet pgen consoles..Wonder what would happen if you could stack 5 of those and each gave a 30+% boost to exotic damage...
Basically Im trying to say..If you did boost energy weapons like the pgens are right now youd be doing less damage..However..if science consoles were given the same % boost to exotic that the tac consoles give to energy weapons...That would be interesting:D Might even see Sci ships competeing for the Top DPS numbers:P
Have Exotic boosted by Aux in the same way Energy Weapons are by Weapon power, eh? Cause most aren't affected by it at all...one set is ~43% and another one is 75%, so even the best one is only half and does so little damage does it matter?
And yeah, with those Tac Consoles providing twice the boost, yeah? So double up the boost from the Sci consoles.
Two skills to boost weapons but only one for Exotic...with the Exotic being T3 while the weapons are T1 and T2.
Even if one were to say that Energy Weapons have to deal with Shields...making Exotic have to deal with Shields while providing the missing boosts and balancing things out...taking into account the CDs and everything...
...heh, yeah, it's kind of a trip how much folks complain about Exotic without looking at just how far behind Energy Weapons it is.
If they were to balance out the boosts, then...then...they might have to take a look at balancing things, lol...but as it is now? Heh, they're always funny discussions to be sure.
* * * * *
Ugh, now I got to try to remember how to put this toon back together again.
Comments
Say what now?
Your deluding yourself big time if you think nerfing the living **** out of partgen builds is going to in any way whatsoever "save" PvP. :rolleyes:
If anything energy weapons have been recieving more love than ever before from Cryptic since DR was released and onwards.
Partigens are just one of the many, but since we're talking partigens in this thread it would be even more deluding to talk about other things, don't you think? :rolleyes:
If specializations weren't such a grind, I think I'd still PvP.
Anyway, FBP isn't God-mode, don't damage the FBPer and you don't die. Time your buffs, use teamwork, switch to torpedoes/mines. Those are all reasonable counters, correct?
I agree, to an extant, Sci ships shouldn't be 'gimped for DPS'. However, Sci ships are Support ships and shouldn't be able to keep in line with the 'top DPSers.
From my experience, most of the disliked STF changes (the ones that have resulted in the 'we need moar DPS' statement), have actually been adjusted to promote the use of crowd control abilities. For instance ISA, the HP of enemies has increased and the number of them increased, most people would say "DPS them faster!" when the less obvious solution would be to drop a grav well and crowd control them.
Specifc missions aside, Science ships shouldn't match up with Cruisers or Escorts for DPS, they have all kinds of clever tricks available to them, THAT is their advantage over other classes.
Yeah..... I'm going to call BS on this whole post. :rolleyes:
Building a high end partigen boat takes substantially more time, dilithium and energy credits to build than your run of the mill cannon boat or beam boat.
And even then a partigen boat is "never" going to be challenging beam boats on top end DPS builds.
But that does not mean they can't be damn good ships in their own right.
Not quite; the traits and DOFFs needed for a high-end Beam Boat (Inspirational Leader, Zemok), and the weapons (Epic CrtDx3/Pen AP DBBs) actually cost substantially more on the exchange than do the components needed for a high-end PartGen build (which only requires Graga Mal and two expensive-but-no-longer-prohibitively-expensive consoles).
I like the way a PartGen boat flies; it's different and fun. I don't think it needs a nerf, and tbf I don't think it actually received one from the changeover.
Yeah, I know you lost about 3K DPS on your build, but...seriously dude, drop GW3 and get either TBR3 or DRB3. The death beam is fun!
They already don't match Cruisers nor Escorts for DPS. In the hands of a good pilot, a Cruiser or an Escort will out DPS a real Science ship.
I really do not see the problem with particle/exotic damage, or science ships for that matter. The issue comes from Tac captain skills buffing Science damage. I really think some high-end R&D traits should be exclusive to certain classes. Particle Manipulator is one of those.
Thing is, no one really flies an exclusively exotic-damage dealing ship. They still use weapons, and those weapons will need to be good. So on an exotic build, you'll still need to invest on weapons, invest on some of those expensive traits and invest on some of those expensive DOffs other than Graga Mal. Try flying an exotic damage build without weapons and see how much it parses.
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
So...you can build a low to mid end part gen ship easy...you want to nerf that...yet you have no problems with ships that can pull 2-4 times the dps of partgen ships easy enough?
The pinnacle of dps is what..someone said 120k? Not many people have broken 100k but it's obviously doable...I haven't heard of anyone even breaking 50k with a partgen ship...
Highest I've heard is the 40k range...so partgens can only reach 1/3rd of what the best fawboat can and yet you want to nerf it?
A fair point; but with torps you mostly use reputation or the crafted Plasma Emission Torpedoes. These are....substantially cheaper to purchase than an CrtDx3/Pen AP DBB. Slightly more expensive to upgrade, but not prohibitively so.
And the traits - Well, you don't necessarily need Fluidic cocoon, because you're not using primarily energy weapons (unless you're flying a BFAW/Exotic Damager).
DOFFS: Besides Graga, you're using DOFFs that can be obtained for free from Ferra or Supports.
So, yeah, while an excellent PartGen boat isn't cheap by any stretch of the imagination, I think it's a great deal cheaper than an excellent BFAW boat.
Sure, if you want to completely TRIBBLE over any engineer that wants to use science or engineering based partigen damage builds or any of the myriad of consoles and what not that use particle generators.
Terrible idea.
Keeping in mind the lag going on:
3 people have broke 100k with the current mechanics.
44 have broke 75k+...
265 have broke 50k+...
975 have broke 30k+...
The 975 includes the 265 includes the 44 includes the 3...yadda, yadda, yadda.
* * * * *
I'm curious what 2x Sci Recluse, 2x Tac Fleet Dauntless, 1x Eng Geneva could do in a lag-free environment with a 2/2/1 (Geneva building on the Gateway and being the initial grab for the Nanites from both sides - Eng for the aggro that would involve with that many Tach Beams).
The Geneva's EWP...some Recluse EWP...all the PEPpy fun...the R-TBRs, the GWs...all the debuffing/buffing.
Probably not the best comp...was just the first thing that came to mind.
But "comp" (composition, team composition) comes into play...cause if one's going to compare stuff to the 100k+...there's a comp involved, planning, and so forth. It's not just random folks with certain builds in random groups...cause if it was, everybody would be doing it...yeah?
The top guy's flying a FPER...not sure how far one has to go for #2 on down to find anything but a Scimitar. Well obviously the FPER's the best, no? So why isn't everybody flying FPERs?
Hell, wait a minute...he was using Phasers! Why are people using AP then? DOH, /facepalm, FPER? He's a Fed not a Rom???? Why are folks rolling Roms?
A Fed in a FPER using Phasers is the top...everybody's doing it wrong!
Or maybe Ryan's just Ryan...and he could go out there with a rebreather and a broken spork to make the vast majority of us look like nubs.
Basically, comparing things...need to have a like comparison made. If one is going to look at those top three folks...to compare something, then the comparison would have to be made to what those top three folks and their teams are able to do with that thing. No?
I know...the 100k is rare...I'm just saying that FaW boats are going to much further than what a partgen boat can do...yet we should nerf part gens.
Honestly it makes me wonder if the people who want partgens nerfed aren't just people who think the only way to dps should be FaW or go home...
Some people have found ways to do good dps, other than the coveted FaW and now they want it nerfed to the ground! For fear it may get stronger and since it takes more skill to fly a partgen boat than spamming FaW all day...
I have no doubt that Partigens wouldn't top the FAW they're doing, cause they're not FAW addicts - they're DPS addicts - and if Partigens could do more, they'd do it. But it's just they're not "normal"...heh, they're outliers. And being the good human beings, we must hunt down and eliminate the different...so it turns into mocking FAW and ignoring that they're just better than the vast majority of us. If Partigens was the best, folks would mock Partigens use - if Cannons - if Torps - if in some twisted reality Mines were best, folks would mock Mines as being spammy requiring no skill. Not sure if it's part of the genetic code or a learned behavior, eh? But as humans, we're pretty good at it...
As for the complaints, I figure they're PvPers. Cause the issue isn't a DPS issue for them...it's a spike/burst issue, yeah? So it would get into a way of possibly maintaining or even increasing DPS while reducing the spike/burst of it. Where one might fiddle with the uptime vs. damage, so that there would be more uptime of lesser damage which would average out to increased DPS but reduce the spike/burst of it.
But then again, it may simply be the anti-Sci thing that's been prevalent forever amongst certain of the players that just want straight up pew pew action without all the stuff from Sci. There are folks that want it to be more like a fighter game...pew pew.
Course, I think the Science we sport is too magical...it's not very Star Trek at all. Something that might have been done a couple of times over almost 50 years is something we spam the Hell out of in this game. Same with all the healing stuff...it's just pseudo fantasy MMO stuff that's been slapped on the game. Doesn't mean I want this game just to be fighter pew pew...I'm not a fan of that either, cause that wasn't Star Trek either.
But there are just certain things that don't work anywhere near the same in PvE and PvP...and well, maybe that's just what needs to be adjusted. It's not like they haven't adjusted other things in that fashion. They have things already (and have added more) where they do X in PvP and do Y in PvE.
So perhaps that's where the adjustments need to be made, eh?
What stands out like a sore thumb? That might be a place to start, yeah?
FBP
Players spam all sorts of high damage attacks at a high rate of fire.
NPCs...er...don't.
They have low APS (attacks per second) and low damage.
Now while folks might have a cow with the thought of increasing the APS and damage of NPCs (even though it would result in a decrease of DPS from players as they suddenly became more concerned with survivability)...that wouldn't be the only way to address it, eh?
One could actually buff FBP for PvE to make it more useful there while addressing some of the concerns in PvP, eh? Course, I still go with the "hot stove" analogy....let me see if I can find that (forgotten I'd posted it but saw it from a search for something else yesterday)...
This, this, this...has been the problem since launch.
Saw you had some questions, so I answered them for you in case they really weren't rhetorical.
While I still stand on particle gen doesn't need to be smashed, there's no doubt people out there who have done extraordinary things with particle gen related stuff. And no doubt these people aren't on this leaderboard that doesn't even represent all people on the game (since many don't even use these things)
I remember one guy was using a lvl 40 BOP (yep, the free one.) and was using mines (I forget what type), torpedos and DBBs. He'd speed demon across Khitomer Vortex Elite helping both sides (granted ,this is right before DR and TRIBBLE hit). Guy pretty much soloed one side of the map in a couple minutes.
But I guess if whatever that guy was doing, and others caught on, then I guess we'd be seeing a thread about nerfing mines and what not. lol.
Funny you brought this up because the Particle Manipulator "nerf" did exactly the opposite of that. It increased spike damage, while maintaining average DPS.
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
Yeah, that change blew my mind. In the past, they'd worked to get more of a balanced range of damage with things - even if it was higher, but they looked to reduce the yo-yo spike potential of things. They went backwards with the Particle Manipulator thing...reducing theoretical average DPS but creating a larger gap between the ends. Definitely a head scratching thing going on with what was that about....
I would remove tac captian abilities buffing sci powers. Tacs are the only class that truely benefit from using another classes ship, i know this would upset alot of players but i cant see an alternative this far down the line without gimping actual scis. Once this is done we can reevaluate.
Alongside this something really needs to be done in PvP, sci ships can play blindfolded and win. I would say we need physical/exotic damage resist consoles, traits and/or masteries.
The thing about sci is that is could use a bit of an overhaul though to stay viable. Disable immunities need lockout duration with visible procs so a sci ship will get better use of a properly timed viral matrix or scramble sensors.
Sci captain abilities need a little bit of a buffing such as a scaling based on up time shield hardness effect to scattering field as well as a threat generating scaling effect (would make more npc's want to fire on the sci ship where a properly times fbp could be devastating), and more active, better equipped photonic fleets. Also, with that same line of thought, sub nuc could use a buff based on secondary deflector....deteroriating could add a small dot to sub nuc, inhibiting a medium sized punch, and resonating a hull/shield heal over time. I think sci fleet is still a good power as it is.
While it may seem unfair to buff sci captain abilities while leaving the other captain abilities we must first remember some game mechanics such as shield hardening and secondary deflectors weren't introduced to the game until recently.
I think the above mentioned would make sci ships and captains more viable in both pvp and pve so long as particle generator and plasma explosion doping was toned down in the process. The current constant flow of 100% shield penetrating damage from a high part gen sci ship build it getting to be too much.
While I agree that high part gens are how sci ships do damage...I must also, say that the damage done from a grav well by a sci ship with 450+ part gens is on par/perhaps could use a small buff. The same ship using Feedback pulse though becomes op when a well equipped tac comes along and fires at it. Also, the same ship using tractor beam repulsors does far more damage than necessary. It would be my view that feedback pulse and tractor beam repulsors damage be toned down by about 60% the whole. With a hard cap being placed on feedback pulse of 100% feedback. The damage a deteriorating deflector does in high part gen is fine.
I just wanted to in here in...Of these high part gen build users that complain sci doesn't do enough damage unless they have high part gens how many of them are actually using tactical consoles in there tactical console slots with god weapons? Most of the time I look on STOACADEMY.COM for sci builds I see tac console slots filled with uni consoles and mk 2 weapons slotted with all plasma exploder part gen consoles filling the sci slots. I guess bravo for figuring out a way to get around another sci ship beating you into the ground while it has fbp up but I mean really?
I'd be down to try such a run. I really think 1 recluse and 1 Dauntless on both sides simultaneously, and the Geneva holding things together in the center. Recluses debuff and aid in CCing the Spheres. I think that could be a 4 min run, maybe.
I'd drop Grav Well 3 for TBR3 and Resonant Beam since I wouldn't have to CC anymore. Heh, maybe I'd get into the 50k channel then lol.
The only thing I see is that Intel Ships period be beyond OP. :rolleyes:
Wow seriously? Your right, you don't have 482 energy weapons training.
Instead of you have Mk XIV weapons and a crapload of tac consoles and set bonuses that "directly" boosts the damage of your weapons.
Sci ships can run mk xiv weapons and tac consoles too...I would be inclined to believe that on average they don't though. If a sci ship wants to increase dps I would recommend starting there not begging the devs more more part gen buffs as I said already and again....there are too many.
Same can be said with FaW and the recent buff...
Yea a sci ship could run faw too to help increase there damage.
Recent buff though...not sure which your referring to....rebalancing to beam barrage to make it a little closer to particle manipulator?
*Dreams*
Oh if only my FAW3 had a 50% crit chance and .1 crtd for every ?10 energy weapons skill point? (don't remember the formula exactly).
I'm sure it would provide more of a damage boost than about 30 damage per beam per stack of beam barrage.
But alas that is a topic for a different thread I do believe.
Beam Barrage was originally balanced so it could not be stacked with FAW. They changed the duration so it can be stacked with FAW...meaning one can get to +6% Beam Bonus Damage with FAW now instead of the +2% it was originally balanced at...
Yea...your boost for the Energy weapons comes from your tac consoles...Now Imagine..instead of adding Pgen like we do now to science slots...How about more of those boosts the constriction anchor provides (which is similar to a tac console but for exotic damage). That 23% boost to exotic is worth more that the Fleet pgen consoles..Wonder what would happen if you could stack 5 of those and each gave a 30+% boost to exotic damage...
Basically Im trying to say..If you did boost energy weapons like the pgens are right now youd be doing less damage..However..if science consoles were given the same % boost to exotic that the tac consoles give to energy weapons...That would be interesting:D Might even see Sci ships competeing for the Top DPS numbers:P
Rouge Sto Wiki Editor.
Outside PVP, there really isn't a reason to nerfo exotic damage further unless it is a general damage nerf to correct power creep (that would include weapon damage as well).
Perhaps the answer for PVP is to make skills work differently in PVP. PVE works so differently, what you suggest will gimp science boats so much in PVE. If it's PVP balance you really want, then there is realyl no choice but to create a separate skill effect in PVP to PVE. I don't see that happening for quite a while though.
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
Again topic for different post, but from the looks of it.....well you be the judge.
For the record that was with the beam barrage trait slotted on my scimitar and 2 copies of a2b with 3 purple techs on active
Have Exotic boosted by Aux in the same way Energy Weapons are by Weapon power, eh? Cause most aren't affected by it at all...one set is ~43% and another one is 75%, so even the best one is only half and does so little damage does it matter?
And yeah, with those Tac Consoles providing twice the boost, yeah? So double up the boost from the Sci consoles.
Two skills to boost weapons but only one for Exotic...with the Exotic being T3 while the weapons are T1 and T2.
Even if one were to say that Energy Weapons have to deal with Shields...making Exotic have to deal with Shields while providing the missing boosts and balancing things out...taking into account the CDs and everything...
...heh, yeah, it's kind of a trip how much folks complain about Exotic without looking at just how far behind Energy Weapons it is.
If they were to balance out the boosts, then...then...they might have to take a look at balancing things, lol...but as it is now? Heh, they're always funny discussions to be sure.
* * * * *
Ugh, now I got to try to remember how to put this toon back together again.