Builds that were viable before are still viable. Hell, the exact same build that was viable would be viable now...no Starship Traits, no T5U upgrade, no Mk 13-14 gear, no Specialization, no Starship Mastery, etc, etc, etc.
There are fresh 50s hitting up ISA with a hodgepodge of Mk 4-10 gear in freebie T5 ships without anything special going for them that are doing 6-10k+ DPS while doing their tank-thing, heal-thing, support-thing.
The DR increase in difficulty at launch was gone before the end of the month. Yeah, stuff that was viable before at the lower end of the spectrum was going to be frustrating as Hell. But those changes were gone before November...
...if something was viable preDR, it's viable with DR. Hell, even if it wasn't viable preDR it might just be viable with DR with some of the new stuff. But if something wasn't viable in the least preDR and somebody just thought it was...with even more folks having headed off to various channels for runs, there are going to be fewer folks that might have helped hide just how bad the build was.
Three roles are better than one? Sure they're illogically artificial, but the current system is based entirely around minmaxing game mechanics and the AI and memorizing the missions, so tomato tomahto.
When a single ship can...DPS, Tank, Heal, Buff, Debuff, and Crowd Control...and much of the content is spread out so there may only be 1-2 ships together...it kind of takes care of itself.
Sure they're illogically artificial, but the current system is based entirely around minmaxing game mechanics and the AI and memorizing the missions, so tomato tomahto.
Try to imagine the QQ if you actually needed a tank and a CC ship in every STF.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
Try to imagine the QQ if you actually needed a tank and a CC ship in every STF.
Which is no different from needing a tank and a healer (or multiple) in most MMO's, waiting to find a support in League of Legends, or any other team-based game with multiple roles with meaningful roles with any significant differentiation. At least in STO you'll still be decently able to do most content without a tank unless they massively overhaul the game's stats.
SCM - Crystal C. (S) - [00:12] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 8.63M(713.16K) - Fed Sci
At least in STO you'll still be decently able to do most content without a tank unless they massively overhaul the game's stats.
Which is a necessity based on the circumstances unique to STO.
Many players can't even coordinate well enough to accomplish failoptionals. They'll never coordinate well enough for proper trinity gameplay. Most players can't even DPS well enough. Fewer still are able to serve well in a support role, and virtually none can even begin to tank beyond the tanking incidental to FAW plus being 80% of the team's total DPS.
A game like LoL can live with role specialization at the high end due to sheer volume of players. Tanking ground combat, even in this game, is significantly easier than STO space tanking, if only as a function of how NPCs can/will react to threat in regards to positioning. That's without taking anything else at all into consideration...the game is literally not designed to support proper tanking, and those few who can make it work represent what more or less constitutes the minimum amount of effort to properly tank in this game, which is to say a considerable amount of effort.
Imagine the QQ if STFs required tanks, and there were only the same number of competent tanks as can currently be found, because that's all the game's core mechanics can support.
It would probably take a ton of heat off you DPS folks. If DPS and elitism go hand in hand, tanking and elitism were made for each other.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
The first step here would be to make a better AI, even if it's just based on IF statements like FF7.
If possible, give NPC ships the exact same potential as player ships, same HP, same boff layouts as their player counterparts and then have the difficulty level dictate how well the ship is built by the AI and how well it's flown, maybe have the devs put in a few fixed details (a couple of boffs, maybe a set of doffs) just to set the theme of the NPC. Also, a random captain type with the same abilities as a player captain of that level, the ship class would dictate the skill spec used.
Then you just need to balance all the abilities in the game, if 90% of NPCs on elite choose an ability then you need to investigate why and if need be make a balance change (possible exceptions being TT and EPtS/W due to features they have that are cruicial to most ship builds).
Effects of the difficulty setting.
- Normal difficulty for me would lead to NPC builds that while structured have flaws and are flown mostly defensively thus making it easier for players to beat without risk of death.
- Advanced difficulty would make for decent NPC builds, on a casual pvp level I think and would be flown accordingly, you'd have to work for your kill and NPCs would coordinate their efforts to bring you down but success would feel good.
- Elite difficulty would be like flying into a high end pvp match, chances of survival are low but gameplay for those that like the style should be fun.
I dont see a problem in the first place.
But I am with the people suggesting the implementation of a better AI. Whilst there is no problem, it would at least increase the challenge this game has to offer.
The problem with that is there is a massive ego creep within the community itself, causing massive amounts of rage and stupidity on the forums and in game, if you want "teamwork" currently you pug.
Thanks man. I haven't laughed so hard in a long time. I'm still going actually! Good thing you were joking.... well I hope you are joking.
Are you joking? Please tell me you are joking?
Oh my god, if you are not joking that is genuinely horrifying.
Remove the DPS fail conditions, period. Lighten up the DPS requirements for optionals too. ANRA, the example of a new way going forward, is absurd and poorly designed. I've never seen a group even get close to the optionals, but then I've never seen it not bug spawns either. Last one I did we spawned 3 1 point ships and a 2 to start with. Not even remotely possible to get 10 points in time.
I can go along with time based fail conditions if it is something like, ISA, finish the transformers in 15m or fail. It lets people finish the queue even if they screwed up stopping the initial spheres, but if they are so unprepared for it that they can't kill the transformers by then, it means they have no control over the spheres and can't get it back under control in time. Taking that long to get it done is penalty enough in itself if you can get it under control again. If not, well its not going to get back under control.
The problem is, queues are intended to be grindfests if you want the stuff from them. Yet, if you want marks you do normal, and soon if you want BNPs or other things, you also do normal. If you want spec XP, you go do ANYTHING else. If you want crafting mats, though, you have to do advanced.
But think about that. One ISA gets you the mats for 1-2 engineering upgrade kits. How many do you need to get your warp core to mk 14? 30 or so? So maybe 20 ISAs just to upgrade your warp core to mk 14. Oh and if you want to make it UR for AMP, have fun with at least another 20 runs. It is a pointless unrewarding grind. In that time you will not get enough ship specialization XP to max out any ship traits. You might get an actual specialization level. You maybe get just enough dilithium to actually use those kits assuming you also do the mark turn ins and get the daily rewards each time. And with the fails, you may end up taking twice as many attempts to actually get what you're after.
The old elite queues were never been about challenge. They were a grind. They used to be at least some quick fun too. Advanced are still designed to be an unrewarding grind, not worth the challenge on top of the time, and that is a problem.
The queue problems ultimately boil down to this: At some point most people have realized the new queues are neither fun, nor do they reward enough to be bothered with for their particular desires, so they don't do them. The fail optionals skew the risk/reward ratio even further.
I think there is nothnig you can do about the more hit points.
If you don't give additional resilience to NPCs, they die in seconds. It doesn'T matter how smart the AI is then.
Sure ,you could give all NPCs reverse shield polarity and metaphasic shields so they are temporarily immune to damage, but that's just another type of hit point sponge mechanic.
You can do it to some extent, and you should give the NPCs hardening that can be defeated by the right powers, but if you overdo it, the only thing you get is a new meta where everyone flies a Science captain in a Tac Escort, so you have Subnucleon Beam and then can shoot for max damage. And it would still be a very dumb gameplay, because NPCs all have some weird damage immunity power.
The challenge is finding a mix of offensive capability and defensive/survival capabiltiies that encourages people to diversify and select between DPS and tanking, and introduce meaningful trade-offs. The choice between Engineering Team III and BFAW III isn't one, for example, because you don't need that healing as much as the BFAW III.
You could also see it this way - if BFAW deals n damage but the Engineering Team only 1/10th n damage, you'll benefit more from the BFAW III. That is a point where you would need to balance powers. If you don't do that, you can add as much AI as you want, going for a defensive mode is most likey dumb.
But maybe it requires a change on a completely different level. Forget about having particular ships being "DPS". All ships are DPS. Full stop.
But Ecorts survive by maneuverability and speed. Cruisers by healing and resilience. Science Vessels by debuffs and buffs.
But I guess the current powers aren't really set up for something like that.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Aren't they already going to revamp the STFs? Or did that happen already? Same set of mandatory objectives across Normal/Advanced/Elite, but more optional objectives at higher difficulties. So if you can get the optionals you'll get better rewards at the higher difficulty levels, but if you overreach your ability level then you just end up spending more time dealing with more frustration to get the same rewards as a lower difficulty level.
Seems like a self-correcting situation.
That aside, the "formerly viable" whine is such BS.
My Delta Recruit has no DPS toys (because I ain't spending resources on someone who's just going to retire to DOffing once the missions are done) and easily breaks 10k with Mk XII Blues. Yet I hope into ISN for some supposedly quick Omega Marks, and find people can't even do ISN properly. No excuses about CC either - I see no Grav Well up while half the team ignores the transformer and futilely tries to shoot down the incoming nanites.
Lots of "formerly viable" builds were never "viable", they were ineffectual junk but the missions were just so easy other people could carry them.
You mean "if you can afford it" most of us can't even get those high numbers because...
A) we dont have enough time to play we dont have that much money to spare all the time.
the cost of upgrading alone ... urgh.
Neither A nor B is necessary to get a ship above 10k, at which point you can comfortably do most Advanced STFs. (Others are more about coordination and teamwork than DPS.)
Piloting and Build are multipliers for Gear. Unless your Gear is junk (like a schizophrenic mix of weapon and energy types at Mk V Common), it won't make anywhere near as big a difference as getting your Piloting and Build multipliers up. Without fail, so long as Gear is at least Mk XI Common, the problem is with Piloting and Build.
Many players can't even coordinate well enough to accomplish failoptionals. They'll never coordinate well enough for proper trinity gameplay.
Very, very true.
People are already whining about how STO is "not casual friendly". Making the trinity mandatory means making certain roles and teamwork necessary, which basically adds a requirement to missions. The whining will just get worse, because the "viable" builds will whine about their tank/DPS/support guys not doing their job (after all it's never them, they have viable builds and know what they're doing).
The first step here would be to make a better AI, even if it's just based on IF statements like FF7.
The DPSers wouldn't complain about better AI.
The very nature of people who research mechanics and work to improve their builds to better overcome existing challenges mean solutions to the new challenge will be adapted to.
The same people who complain about no longer being "viable" will complain about better AI kicking their TRIBBLE, because they're the people who refuse to adapt to game mechanics in the first place.
People are already whining about how STO is "not casual friendly". Making the trinity mandatory means making certain roles and teamwork necessary, which basically adds a requirement to missions. The whining will just get worse, because the "viable" builds will whine about their tank/DPS/support guys not doing their job (after all it's never them, they have viable builds and know what they're doing).
A mandatory trinity also means everything will be bottlenecked by the tanks. Only as many queues will pop as tanks are queued. If you get a failtank you might as well eat the leaver penalty. If you think queues take a long time now try queueing as dps in a trinity game.
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
The very nature of people who research mechanics and work to improve their builds to better overcome existing challenges mean solutions to the new challenge will be adapted to.
The same people who complain about no longer being "viable" will complain about better AI kicking their TRIBBLE, because they're the people who refuse to adapt to game mechanics in the first place.
Good, I'm not out to make a DPS useless, just not the only/best solution to everything, if advanced was like flying into a low to mid level pvp match then dps would be an option but maybe science might be a better option, or when you have an enemy group that uses a lot of scramble sensors and your dps might be spread too thin to be useful or in a worse scenario your FAW kills an objective critical object.
My point being you can do all sorts of stuff without making any playstyle right or wrong, I just want to arrange things so that there is a serious advantage/disadvantage to certain playstyles in certain situations based on random NPC generation within certain AI limits based on difficulty.
What are my suggestions? My suggestion is to go play another game. First, "better AI" will never happen. Good NPC AI is just not a thing in MMOs. Not even in a lot of single player games either. But if good ai is a deal breaker for you, go play a single player game.
Second, tired of the DPS race? Go play another MMO. STO will never change. In order for it to be not just about DPS we'd need systems in the game that would reinforce the MMORPG trinity LIKE EVERY OTHER FREAKING SUCCESSFUL MMO OUT THERE. It's not rocket science. They don't need to re-invent the wheel. The big three MMOs out there right now (don't debate me on this you'll waste your breath): WoW, SWTOR, and FFXIV all use the trinity and have a matchmaking system for their queues/dungeons that put a healer, a tank, and a couple DPS together and the content is designed around it.
There's really no other answer. But instead, Cryptic will continue to do what they've always done, rest on their laurels and squander all the potential that a Trek MMO has with old, antiquated game engines, terrible servers, lousy ideas. There's a reason that Cryptic studios and STO are not even a blip on the radar of hardcore MMO players.
And the recent trend of pumping out new ships to buy every other month with new powers/game play experiences locked with them pretty much putting the nails in the coffin. How many ships do they think people will keep buying?
Combat needs to be meaningful, as in when you play the single player campaign you should be really locked in battle when you face one enemy of your own weightclass. Those enemies should utilize sets of abilities akin to the player's, of course different for every enemy that you know what you're up to. Feedpack pulses, healing, evasive manouvres - it's not a bad thing if you are looked 5-10 minutes in a single fight, if it is THE main battle of the mission/episode. "Swarms" of enemies should really only consist of smaller support ships.
Now, multiplayer should throw those challenges at you, but three or four of them which requires a balanced team to be succesful. Have a healer/debuffer/tank and damage dealers ready. Yes, it is the trinity. But it works. I don't say lock ships/classes TO the trinity, just that you require players skilled differently for that very mission - for that purpose I'd welcome free, on the fly respecs like GW2 offers. And when you encounter a cube or voth dradnaught - those ships are meant to bind entire fleets in battle. Let us feel it not via insta-kills but groups of weapon hardpoints able to lock onto more than one target, abilities, reinforcements, meaningful support/sabotage skills...
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
A mandatory trinity also means everything will be bottlenecked by the tanks. Only as many queues will pop as tanks are queued. If you get a failtank you might as well eat the leaver penalty. If you think queues take a long time now try queueing as dps in a trinity game.
They have a system in Neverwinter. It's not perfect, I think after a certain amount of time they'll just lump whoever together.
It's also not just the tanks in there - every role is critical. The tanks need to pin down the big threats, the CC need to control the adds (who do make up major threats) and the DPS need to properly prioritize between the big threats and the adds.
If the tank can't pin down the big threats, the CC and DPS can't do their jobs and it goes to hell with waves of adds killing everybody.
If the CC can't control the adds, it goes to hell with waves of adds killing everybody.
If DPS can't protect the CC and take down the dangerous adds, it goes to hell with waves of adds killing everybody. If they're too busy dealing with the dangerous adds, the big threats don't go down and eventually everybody dies from attrition.
When it goes smoothly, it's beautiful. If the random queue doesn't match you with competent people, it's horrendous.
Nobody can carry, everybody must be good. Copy that system into STO where the vast majority are not good, and watch the queues tank even more.
I don't think anyone is really happy with the way things currently are.
Pugs don't do enough damage to complete objectives. Content takes too long to complete. Everyone is seemingly forced into DPS builds, where tanks and CC are almost always useless compared to moar DPS (FAW IS LIFE!).
Hyper inflated NPC HP is not "difficult", adding a timer to that does not make it "Advanced" or "Elite."
How would you fix it?
I understand the frustration.
The problem, however, is not really DPS. I've pugged ISA and completed all objectives with an average team DPS of 6.29k DPS....With pugs! Most pugs can get somewhere near 6k. It's about knowing how to do the other things like how position your ship, combine fire on the same shield facing and how to use what you bring to the STF well that makes the difference when the DPS isn't in abundance.
Using warp plasma on the transformer in ISA does DPS, but using it on the spheres does DPS AND slows them down. Slowing them down in a sub 10k DPS group is a very effective way to provide more time to complete the objective of destroying the transformer.
As for taking too long, a good sub 10k group run can be kind of fun since it makes you have to think more. You end up working a bit harder for the success and it feels better in the end than a quick pew pew set of 2 minutes or less.
As for tanks and CC builds,I can attest that tanks can certainly be effective. Just ask the player I helped get a 64k DPS ISA run in. The player had never done 50k or more before. Tanking must have helped, but you won't easily see it in the combatlog. You can't quantify the effectiveness of the tanking in that case, but you CAN qualify it with one player being able to get into the 50k group by a considerable amount.
I also had a fleetmate run a CC build that did about 3k DPS in CSA. He held BoP's, raptors, spheres in place. The Kang was totally safe. Under the right circumstances, all basic roles are effective.
The complaint should not be about needing excessive amounts of DPS, but being able to maximize for something, some role, be a good teammate and provide some amount of DPS.
How to fix it? Fleets should probably mentor new players to help them with tactics, builds, teamwork.
Beyond that, you better be shooting to bring around 60k DPS to cover for the other 4 folks. Neither solution is easy. Both take effort. I'm sure there could be more. It really depends on what you put value on.
They have a system in Neverwinter. It's not perfect, I think after a certain amount of time they'll just lump whoever together.
It's also not just the tanks in there - every role is critical. The tanks need to pin down the big threats, the CC need to control the adds (who do make up major threats) and the DPS need to properly prioritize between the big threats and the adds.
DPS is a dime a gross. Tanking, cc, and healing won't get you through the solo play.
If there is a need of a tank, cc, and healer, throwing 5 DPS together will technically get them in the instance but they won't be able to do anything in it unless some massively overgear it.
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Ahh, the age old remove hps and shield and add an AI debate... Didn't Geko state he didn't like that idea a few times publicly?
Sure an AI would be fun and having the enemy adapt to tactics nice and challenging. However, how would that even be possible? The only way that could work is if you used the same group of people over and over again and the AI adapted for that one group for only that instance.
Otherwise, if it adapted based on the toughest people the Normal Ai would have FAR more complaints coming up like water from a fire hydrant. That was why hps and shield was upped. I think they even added some more to add to the challenge and changed some tactics slightly. But guess what, people came complaining about how it was too difficult to do advanced. And that it wasn't like the elite of old. All the while us who played the advanced and elite loved it with the increased HP because it made them stick around longer and we had to try a different strategy to compensate.
This change they are preparing to do, sure it might be good for those who want to be doing the space advanced and elite for the elite marks, but for those of us wanting a truly challenging game we're left in the dust hoping for something more difficult again.
If you just leveled to 50 and you took your brand new, unprepared ship into an advanced queue and got your tail handed to you. What did you expect? That would be like Recruiting a new person scrawny and lacking of muscle and expecting him to join the military and that same day send him to the front lines and telling him to drive a tank down enemy lines then get out and shoot a handheld automatic rifle without any training. Few can handle that most won't however. You do training to get that good. You practice on targets, then do practice assault runs with paint guns learning strategy. Then once you are fully trained and equipped with the right stuff, you are sent to the lines.
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I played this game first years ago, quit then returned from the Romulan expansion, played a Rom to 50 quit, now I'm playing AGAIN having joined back up just prior to delta recruitment.
I'm playing a level 60 Sci officer now.
The PUGs I join accomplish an advanced que about 5% of the time, about once every 20 attempts.
I feel like there is nothing left for me to do in this game. I like my setup, my DPS is okay but not top notch and I don't want to completely revamp my entire style of play just for "MOAR DPS". I like Wells and Rifts and drains and that sort of stuff.
So I have two choices: Quit again (considering it, again) or copy/paste some dumb DPS only build and have A LOT LESS FUN but be able to "progress".
I played this game first years ago, quit then returned from the Romulan expansion, played a Rom to 50 quit, now I'm playing AGAIN having joined back up just prior to delta recruitment.
I'm playing a level 60 Sci officer now.
The PUGs I join accomplish an advanced que about 5% of the time, about once every 20 attempts.
I feel like there is nothing left for me to do in this game. I like my setup, my DPS is okay but not top notch and I don't want to completely revamp my entire style of play just for "MOAR DPS". I like Wells and Rifts and drains and that sort of stuff.
So I have two choices: Quit again (considering it, again) or copy/paste some dumb DPS only build and have A LOT LESS FUN but be able to "progress".
That doesn't seem like very good design Cryptic.
Wouldn't the first step to be evaluate why those Advanced Queues are failing? Then proceed based on that? What's going on that is causing them to fail? Is it actually a lack of DPS or is something else going on there?
Simply give the PvE mobs better AI... in this day and age the AI in STO is like a caveman, barely able to function and really not all that much of a challenge.
I don't know how you can come to that conclusion, Cryptic's Patented Pakled AI system seems to be working perfectly.
Wouldn't the first step to be evaluate why those Advanced Queues are failing? Then proceed based on that? What's going on that is causing them to fail? Is it actually a lack of DPS or is something else going on there?
Lot of point in this. I know a science office who has done a good chunk of DPS without weapons, using exotic damage.
You might not need to make a MOAR DPS route of things, but maybe certain skills timed with each other. Maybe those escorts you flew with aren't doing their parts and being the "hitters" they could be. Maybe a mistimed well pulled the nanite closer, instead of helping to keep them away.
When you think your style is perfect you should realize that maybe there's more than just doing things your way. there are methods that can be combined to make your rifts, wells, and other things MORE effective and becoming a means for finishing properly.
Besides that, you have to recall, that you are expecting typically, 5 people who have NEVER seen each other, and never worked together on things. Come together and then finish a mission.. Each person has their own ideas on HOW it *should* be done. IE they watch the videos of others and see them attacking the transformer head on so they think "Hey I can do that!", what they miss is some of the highend DPS runs are planned and timed and calculated.
Or, they think, well everyone is going left, so I'll head right and see if I can do it because I think I'm that good.
Both of these cases are not perfect examples of what is seen out there, but I have heard of it. It is hard to expect a group of strangers to in 2 seconds make a team of 5 and know who is doing what, plus what profession each is instantly. That sort of knowledge you only know by running often with a person or communication, which doesn't occur in PUGs (typically).
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Some players die a brutal death if an Epohh farts.
Hey! Those are silent and deadly! That's how they kill you. They lure you in by looking all inoffensive and then -- PFFFT!
Cryptic lets you keep those respirators for a reason, I tell you.
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There is a reason why most MMO developers create more and more cosmetic items instead of constantly making things better.
Cryptic put the games life on a timer when they decided the way forward for them was to always be releasing things that FUNCTION better then what already exists.
There are 2 ways to develop a MMO in regards to new items / skills and power in general. One way is the Fashion/Form model... where new items look better, or at least different. Giving people new outfits for there barbie dolls... the other way to go is to forget about Form and stick to Function. Giving new things better stats, and increased functionality.
In my case I have learned, I will never play a MMO where the developer chooses the function path again. As a lover of trek I put up with it in this game for a long time before I learned better.
There is no way to re-balance this game ever again. It simply won't work, Cryptic has decided that the easiest quickest way to sell things is to constantly upgrade there function. This means the game can never be balanced, any time they release new content, it may well be balanced vs the meta at the time, however 1-2 upgrade cycles and the content will once more become a joke.
Good luck convincing Cryptic to stop selling power creep, its like trusting Dracula to just pull a taste every time the fangs are in.
Comments
Builds that were viable before are still viable. Hell, the exact same build that was viable would be viable now...no Starship Traits, no T5U upgrade, no Mk 13-14 gear, no Specialization, no Starship Mastery, etc, etc, etc.
There are fresh 50s hitting up ISA with a hodgepodge of Mk 4-10 gear in freebie T5 ships without anything special going for them that are doing 6-10k+ DPS while doing their tank-thing, heal-thing, support-thing.
The DR increase in difficulty at launch was gone before the end of the month. Yeah, stuff that was viable before at the lower end of the spectrum was going to be frustrating as Hell. But those changes were gone before November...
...if something was viable preDR, it's viable with DR. Hell, even if it wasn't viable preDR it might just be viable with DR with some of the new stuff. But if something wasn't viable in the least preDR and somebody just thought it was...with even more folks having headed off to various channels for runs, there are going to be fewer folks that might have helped hide just how bad the build was.
When a single ship can...DPS, Tank, Heal, Buff, Debuff, and Crowd Control...and much of the content is spread out so there may only be 1-2 ships together...it kind of takes care of itself.
Which is no different from needing a tank and a healer (or multiple) in most MMO's, waiting to find a support in League of Legends, or any other team-based game with multiple roles with meaningful roles with any significant differentiation. At least in STO you'll still be decently able to do most content without a tank unless they massively overhaul the game's stats.
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
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Many players can't even coordinate well enough to accomplish failoptionals. They'll never coordinate well enough for proper trinity gameplay. Most players can't even DPS well enough. Fewer still are able to serve well in a support role, and virtually none can even begin to tank beyond the tanking incidental to FAW plus being 80% of the team's total DPS.
A game like LoL can live with role specialization at the high end due to sheer volume of players. Tanking ground combat, even in this game, is significantly easier than STO space tanking, if only as a function of how NPCs can/will react to threat in regards to positioning. That's without taking anything else at all into consideration...the game is literally not designed to support proper tanking, and those few who can make it work represent what more or less constitutes the minimum amount of effort to properly tank in this game, which is to say a considerable amount of effort.
Imagine the QQ if STFs required tanks, and there were only the same number of competent tanks as can currently be found, because that's all the game's core mechanics can support.
It would probably take a ton of heat off you DPS folks. If DPS and elitism go hand in hand, tanking and elitism were made for each other.
If possible, give NPC ships the exact same potential as player ships, same HP, same boff layouts as their player counterparts and then have the difficulty level dictate how well the ship is built by the AI and how well it's flown, maybe have the devs put in a few fixed details (a couple of boffs, maybe a set of doffs) just to set the theme of the NPC. Also, a random captain type with the same abilities as a player captain of that level, the ship class would dictate the skill spec used.
Then you just need to balance all the abilities in the game, if 90% of NPCs on elite choose an ability then you need to investigate why and if need be make a balance change (possible exceptions being TT and EPtS/W due to features they have that are cruicial to most ship builds).
Effects of the difficulty setting.
- Normal difficulty for me would lead to NPC builds that while structured have flaws and are flown mostly defensively thus making it easier for players to beat without risk of death.
- Advanced difficulty would make for decent NPC builds, on a casual pvp level I think and would be flown accordingly, you'd have to work for your kill and NPCs would coordinate their efforts to bring you down but success would feel good.
- Elite difficulty would be like flying into a high end pvp match, chances of survival are low but gameplay for those that like the style should be fun.
But I am with the people suggesting the implementation of a better AI. Whilst there is no problem, it would at least increase the challenge this game has to offer.
Thanks man. I haven't laughed so hard in a long time. I'm still going actually! Good thing you were joking.... well I hope you are joking.
Are you joking? Please tell me you are joking?
Oh my god, if you are not joking that is genuinely horrifying.
I can go along with time based fail conditions if it is something like, ISA, finish the transformers in 15m or fail. It lets people finish the queue even if they screwed up stopping the initial spheres, but if they are so unprepared for it that they can't kill the transformers by then, it means they have no control over the spheres and can't get it back under control in time. Taking that long to get it done is penalty enough in itself if you can get it under control again. If not, well its not going to get back under control.
The problem is, queues are intended to be grindfests if you want the stuff from them. Yet, if you want marks you do normal, and soon if you want BNPs or other things, you also do normal. If you want spec XP, you go do ANYTHING else. If you want crafting mats, though, you have to do advanced.
But think about that. One ISA gets you the mats for 1-2 engineering upgrade kits. How many do you need to get your warp core to mk 14? 30 or so? So maybe 20 ISAs just to upgrade your warp core to mk 14. Oh and if you want to make it UR for AMP, have fun with at least another 20 runs. It is a pointless unrewarding grind. In that time you will not get enough ship specialization XP to max out any ship traits. You might get an actual specialization level. You maybe get just enough dilithium to actually use those kits assuming you also do the mark turn ins and get the daily rewards each time. And with the fails, you may end up taking twice as many attempts to actually get what you're after.
The old elite queues were never been about challenge. They were a grind. They used to be at least some quick fun too. Advanced are still designed to be an unrewarding grind, not worth the challenge on top of the time, and that is a problem.
The queue problems ultimately boil down to this: At some point most people have realized the new queues are neither fun, nor do they reward enough to be bothered with for their particular desires, so they don't do them. The fail optionals skew the risk/reward ratio even further.
If you don't give additional resilience to NPCs, they die in seconds. It doesn'T matter how smart the AI is then.
Sure ,you could give all NPCs reverse shield polarity and metaphasic shields so they are temporarily immune to damage, but that's just another type of hit point sponge mechanic.
You can do it to some extent, and you should give the NPCs hardening that can be defeated by the right powers, but if you overdo it, the only thing you get is a new meta where everyone flies a Science captain in a Tac Escort, so you have Subnucleon Beam and then can shoot for max damage. And it would still be a very dumb gameplay, because NPCs all have some weird damage immunity power.
The challenge is finding a mix of offensive capability and defensive/survival capabiltiies that encourages people to diversify and select between DPS and tanking, and introduce meaningful trade-offs. The choice between Engineering Team III and BFAW III isn't one, for example, because you don't need that healing as much as the BFAW III.
You could also see it this way - if BFAW deals n damage but the Engineering Team only 1/10th n damage, you'll benefit more from the BFAW III. That is a point where you would need to balance powers. If you don't do that, you can add as much AI as you want, going for a defensive mode is most likey dumb.
But maybe it requires a change on a completely different level. Forget about having particular ships being "DPS". All ships are DPS. Full stop.
But Ecorts survive by maneuverability and speed. Cruisers by healing and resilience. Science Vessels by debuffs and buffs.
But I guess the current powers aren't really set up for something like that.
Seems like a self-correcting situation.
That aside, the "formerly viable" whine is such BS.
My Delta Recruit has no DPS toys (because I ain't spending resources on someone who's just going to retire to DOffing once the missions are done) and easily breaks 10k with Mk XII Blues. Yet I hope into ISN for some supposedly quick Omega Marks, and find people can't even do ISN properly. No excuses about CC either - I see no Grav Well up while half the team ignores the transformer and futilely tries to shoot down the incoming nanites.
Lots of "formerly viable" builds were never "viable", they were ineffectual junk but the missions were just so easy other people could carry them.
Neither A nor B is necessary to get a ship above 10k, at which point you can comfortably do most Advanced STFs. (Others are more about coordination and teamwork than DPS.)
Piloting and Build are multipliers for Gear. Unless your Gear is junk (like a schizophrenic mix of weapon and energy types at Mk V Common), it won't make anywhere near as big a difference as getting your Piloting and Build multipliers up. Without fail, so long as Gear is at least Mk XI Common, the problem is with Piloting and Build.
Very, very true.
People are already whining about how STO is "not casual friendly". Making the trinity mandatory means making certain roles and teamwork necessary, which basically adds a requirement to missions. The whining will just get worse, because the "viable" builds will whine about their tank/DPS/support guys not doing their job (after all it's never them, they have viable builds and know what they're doing).
The DPSers wouldn't complain about better AI.
The very nature of people who research mechanics and work to improve their builds to better overcome existing challenges mean solutions to the new challenge will be adapted to.
The same people who complain about no longer being "viable" will complain about better AI kicking their TRIBBLE, because they're the people who refuse to adapt to game mechanics in the first place.
A mandatory trinity also means everything will be bottlenecked by the tanks. Only as many queues will pop as tanks are queued. If you get a failtank you might as well eat the leaver penalty. If you think queues take a long time now try queueing as dps in a trinity game.
Good, I'm not out to make a DPS useless, just not the only/best solution to everything, if advanced was like flying into a low to mid level pvp match then dps would be an option but maybe science might be a better option, or when you have an enemy group that uses a lot of scramble sensors and your dps might be spread too thin to be useful or in a worse scenario your FAW kills an objective critical object.
My point being you can do all sorts of stuff without making any playstyle right or wrong, I just want to arrange things so that there is a serious advantage/disadvantage to certain playstyles in certain situations based on random NPC generation within certain AI limits based on difficulty.
Second, tired of the DPS race? Go play another MMO. STO will never change. In order for it to be not just about DPS we'd need systems in the game that would reinforce the MMORPG trinity LIKE EVERY OTHER FREAKING SUCCESSFUL MMO OUT THERE. It's not rocket science. They don't need to re-invent the wheel. The big three MMOs out there right now (don't debate me on this you'll waste your breath): WoW, SWTOR, and FFXIV all use the trinity and have a matchmaking system for their queues/dungeons that put a healer, a tank, and a couple DPS together and the content is designed around it.
There's really no other answer. But instead, Cryptic will continue to do what they've always done, rest on their laurels and squander all the potential that a Trek MMO has with old, antiquated game engines, terrible servers, lousy ideas. There's a reason that Cryptic studios and STO are not even a blip on the radar of hardcore MMO players.
And the recent trend of pumping out new ships to buy every other month with new powers/game play experiences locked with them pretty much putting the nails in the coffin. How many ships do they think people will keep buying?
Now, multiplayer should throw those challenges at you, but three or four of them which requires a balanced team to be succesful. Have a healer/debuffer/tank and damage dealers ready. Yes, it is the trinity. But it works. I don't say lock ships/classes TO the trinity, just that you require players skilled differently for that very mission - for that purpose I'd welcome free, on the fly respecs like GW2 offers. And when you encounter a cube or voth dradnaught - those ships are meant to bind entire fleets in battle. Let us feel it not via insta-kills but groups of weapon hardpoints able to lock onto more than one target, abilities, reinforcements, meaningful support/sabotage skills...
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They have a system in Neverwinter. It's not perfect, I think after a certain amount of time they'll just lump whoever together.
It's also not just the tanks in there - every role is critical. The tanks need to pin down the big threats, the CC need to control the adds (who do make up major threats) and the DPS need to properly prioritize between the big threats and the adds.
If the tank can't pin down the big threats, the CC and DPS can't do their jobs and it goes to hell with waves of adds killing everybody.
If the CC can't control the adds, it goes to hell with waves of adds killing everybody.
If DPS can't protect the CC and take down the dangerous adds, it goes to hell with waves of adds killing everybody. If they're too busy dealing with the dangerous adds, the big threats don't go down and eventually everybody dies from attrition.
When it goes smoothly, it's beautiful. If the random queue doesn't match you with competent people, it's horrendous.
Nobody can carry, everybody must be good. Copy that system into STO where the vast majority are not good, and watch the queues tank even more.
Is SWTOR really bigger than GW2?
I understand the frustration.
The problem, however, is not really DPS. I've pugged ISA and completed all objectives with an average team DPS of 6.29k DPS....With pugs! Most pugs can get somewhere near 6k. It's about knowing how to do the other things like how position your ship, combine fire on the same shield facing and how to use what you bring to the STF well that makes the difference when the DPS isn't in abundance.
Using warp plasma on the transformer in ISA does DPS, but using it on the spheres does DPS AND slows them down. Slowing them down in a sub 10k DPS group is a very effective way to provide more time to complete the objective of destroying the transformer.
As for taking too long, a good sub 10k group run can be kind of fun since it makes you have to think more. You end up working a bit harder for the success and it feels better in the end than a quick pew pew set of 2 minutes or less.
As for tanks and CC builds,I can attest that tanks can certainly be effective. Just ask the player I helped get a 64k DPS ISA run in. The player had never done 50k or more before. Tanking must have helped, but you won't easily see it in the combatlog. You can't quantify the effectiveness of the tanking in that case, but you CAN qualify it with one player being able to get into the 50k group by a considerable amount.
I also had a fleetmate run a CC build that did about 3k DPS in CSA. He held BoP's, raptors, spheres in place. The Kang was totally safe. Under the right circumstances, all basic roles are effective.
The complaint should not be about needing excessive amounts of DPS, but being able to maximize for something, some role, be a good teammate and provide some amount of DPS.
How to fix it? Fleets should probably mentor new players to help them with tactics, builds, teamwork.
Beyond that, you better be shooting to bring around 60k DPS to cover for the other 4 folks. Neither solution is easy. Both take effort. I'm sure there could be more. It really depends on what you put value on.
DPS is a dime a gross. Tanking, cc, and healing won't get you through the solo play.
If there is a need of a tank, cc, and healer, throwing 5 DPS together will technically get them in the instance but they won't be able to do anything in it unless some massively overgear it.
That would be like running for a glass of warm milk instead of a lifeguard if somebody was drowning at the beach...
Cryptic reevaluated an issue they've been fighting since the dawn of time. One they had hoped they had fixed back with S7.
Some players couldn't damage a wet paper towel.
Some players die a brutal death if an Epohh farts.
They've been cramming in everything they could into the game to help with that, but it has never been quite enough.
S10 will address that.
Sure an AI would be fun and having the enemy adapt to tactics nice and challenging. However, how would that even be possible? The only way that could work is if you used the same group of people over and over again and the AI adapted for that one group for only that instance.
Otherwise, if it adapted based on the toughest people the Normal Ai would have FAR more complaints coming up like water from a fire hydrant. That was why hps and shield was upped. I think they even added some more to add to the challenge and changed some tactics slightly. But guess what, people came complaining about how it was too difficult to do advanced. And that it wasn't like the elite of old. All the while us who played the advanced and elite loved it with the increased HP because it made them stick around longer and we had to try a different strategy to compensate.
This change they are preparing to do, sure it might be good for those who want to be doing the space advanced and elite for the elite marks, but for those of us wanting a truly challenging game we're left in the dust hoping for something more difficult again.
If you just leveled to 50 and you took your brand new, unprepared ship into an advanced queue and got your tail handed to you. What did you expect? That would be like Recruiting a new person scrawny and lacking of muscle and expecting him to join the military and that same day send him to the front lines and telling him to drive a tank down enemy lines then get out and shoot a handheld automatic rifle without any training. Few can handle that most won't however. You do training to get that good. You practice on targets, then do practice assault runs with paint guns learning strategy. Then once you are fully trained and equipped with the right stuff, you are sent to the lines.
Top DPS 102k
I played this game first years ago, quit then returned from the Romulan expansion, played a Rom to 50 quit, now I'm playing AGAIN having joined back up just prior to delta recruitment.
I'm playing a level 60 Sci officer now.
The PUGs I join accomplish an advanced que about 5% of the time, about once every 20 attempts.
I feel like there is nothing left for me to do in this game. I like my setup, my DPS is okay but not top notch and I don't want to completely revamp my entire style of play just for "MOAR DPS". I like Wells and Rifts and drains and that sort of stuff.
So I have two choices: Quit again (considering it, again) or copy/paste some dumb DPS only build and have A LOT LESS FUN but be able to "progress".
That doesn't seem like very good design Cryptic.
Wouldn't the first step to be evaluate why those Advanced Queues are failing? Then proceed based on that? What's going on that is causing them to fail? Is it actually a lack of DPS or is something else going on there?
Lot of point in this. I know a science office who has done a good chunk of DPS without weapons, using exotic damage.
You might not need to make a MOAR DPS route of things, but maybe certain skills timed with each other. Maybe those escorts you flew with aren't doing their parts and being the "hitters" they could be. Maybe a mistimed well pulled the nanite closer, instead of helping to keep them away.
When you think your style is perfect you should realize that maybe there's more than just doing things your way. there are methods that can be combined to make your rifts, wells, and other things MORE effective and becoming a means for finishing properly.
Besides that, you have to recall, that you are expecting typically, 5 people who have NEVER seen each other, and never worked together on things. Come together and then finish a mission.. Each person has their own ideas on HOW it *should* be done. IE they watch the videos of others and see them attacking the transformer head on so they think "Hey I can do that!", what they miss is some of the highend DPS runs are planned and timed and calculated.
Or, they think, well everyone is going left, so I'll head right and see if I can do it because I think I'm that good.
Both of these cases are not perfect examples of what is seen out there, but I have heard of it. It is hard to expect a group of strangers to in 2 seconds make a team of 5 and know who is doing what, plus what profession each is instantly. That sort of knowledge you only know by running often with a person or communication, which doesn't occur in PUGs (typically).
Top DPS 102k
Hey! Those are silent and deadly! That's how they kill you. They lure you in by looking all inoffensive and then -- PFFFT!
Cryptic lets you keep those respirators for a reason, I tell you.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Not even the full environmental suits can keep that planet killer out.....
Top DPS 102k
Its the business model that is the issue.
There is a reason why most MMO developers create more and more cosmetic items instead of constantly making things better.
Cryptic put the games life on a timer when they decided the way forward for them was to always be releasing things that FUNCTION better then what already exists.
There are 2 ways to develop a MMO in regards to new items / skills and power in general. One way is the Fashion/Form model... where new items look better, or at least different. Giving people new outfits for there barbie dolls... the other way to go is to forget about Form and stick to Function. Giving new things better stats, and increased functionality.
In my case I have learned, I will never play a MMO where the developer chooses the function path again. As a lover of trek I put up with it in this game for a long time before I learned better.
There is no way to re-balance this game ever again. It simply won't work, Cryptic has decided that the easiest quickest way to sell things is to constantly upgrade there function. This means the game can never be balanced, any time they release new content, it may well be balanced vs the meta at the time, however 1-2 upgrade cycles and the content will once more become a joke.
Good luck convincing Cryptic to stop selling power creep, its like trusting Dracula to just pull a taste every time the fangs are in.