If you can show me an escort that can park in advanced content I will agree with you.
Parked against an attacker without Bonus Accuracy, my T5 (non-Upgrade/non-Fleet) B'rel has 15.3% Bonus Defense meaning an attacker has an 86.7% To-Hit going against me.
-15% for 0 speed.
+15% for 9 Starship Maneuvering Systems.
+10% for Elusive.
+5.3% for 1 pt in Intelligence Officer.
Escort +10% does not apply unless moving.
If I go to 1/4 impulse at min Eng Power (43/15) for a speed of 6.2 Impulse, my Bonus Defense jumps to 35.2%. That's a To-Hit of 73.9%.
As that Delta Recruit levels, there will be further increases to the Bonus Defense. And there are plenty of other sources as well. I can sit there or move at a snail's pace while the NPCs fire at me like they're blindfolded.
With the sheer amount of both passive/active heals/resists/buffs/debuffs/etc...what Escort couldn't park 'n shoot? I mean, maybe if there was some loadout issue or something.
This suggests a layer of complexity in the game and legitimizes alternative playstyles that aren't DPS purists. Of course this is just a game and people can do what they like, but let's not kid ourselves. Who are they going to tank? CC? Heal?
Any decent player can tank reliably with just their intel spec tree active, CC with their FAW AoE zoning (anything within 10km is vaporized), heal with their passives and traits. DPSers dominate in buffing/debuffing. All of this combined with an extremely TRIBBLE AI design and constant powercreep, STO gameplay becomes extremely ridiculously simple.
It is hilarious to me that there are people out there that are taking the tanking/heal/CC role so seriously. If they were PvPin', because these roles are actually relevant on that side I would understand but come on this is STO PvE. Park, pew pew, rinse/repeat.
It's what I generally do when I hit up a queue...I'm doing that mix of Tank/Heals/Support/CrowdControl/Buff/Debuff without giving much thought to the DPS. Cause the DPS basically takes care of itself. I'm only doing the 10-20k stuff, so it's not like I'm having to put any effort into it like the 75k+ guys...I just move from spot to spot as the weapons/etc do their thing and try to grab aggro, try to keep folks alive, debuff targets to increase the DPS of the group, buff the team to increase the DPS of the group, etc, etc, etc.
I hate to agree with paxdawn, but there are a lot of PvP folks that talk about PvE being such and such...and...well, they're nowhere to be found on the DPS League tables there. If it's all so easy and mindless...a good way to back that up would be with something other than words.
If you can show me an escort that can park in advanced content I will agree with you.
My FPE-r can.
~60% resistance, from Armor consoles and Aux to ID DOff.
ET3. RSP 2. Aux to SIF 1. HE, TSS, EPtS.
With the Pathfinder/Dauntless Traits and the Samsar console, it's a veritable tank with 30k+ DPS... provided the Lag Monster doesn't eat my heals when I need them to pop off.
the ultimate challenge would be the old stand-by (ST 25th anni edition) of the mirror match, the enemy mobs have the exact same mods, boffs, & doffs (and an AI to use it), lets just see the qq'ing then............i'd like it just for giggles............
also Epohh farts.............i just about busted my gut when lol'ing after i read that...............
There is literally nothing in the game that more DPS can't make faster, easier or more efficient.
Doffing
Mine trap phase 2 and in phase 4 more DPs is potentially bad if you're confused
First half of undine infiltration
Getting the shields down on undine planetkillers or capturing points with kdf or romulan devices (past a minimum point well below 5k more doesn't matter you twiddle your thumbs waiting for the same time at 200k or 8k)
Crafting
Lots of foundry missions
Cold comfort
I can keep going
Literally we should just agree that literally literally means figuratively most of the time. ~.^
the ultimate challenge would be the old stand-by (ST 25th anni edition) of the mirror match, the enemy mobs have the exact same mods, boffs, & doffs (and an AI to use it), lets just see the qq'ing then............i'd like it just for giggles............
Do more damage! DPS solves all the world's problems.
Pretty much, because in the majority of cases, if they were to try and bring trinity roles into this game, people would still get it wrong the majority of times, at least with this system it's a single minded focus.
If at first you don't succeed, than bring a bigger hammer!
I really have no idea why I'm even going to post ideas here if everyone knows that Cryptic/PWE isn't going to do anything at all to begin with. Still, whatever...
First I will say that to re-balanced everything in the game, including;
1. Re-program the A.I.
2. Re-balancing every class and ship.
Takes a TRIBBLE load of time.
Time that Cryptic/PWE we all know will not take or consider at any moment. Where we are standing right now is in a game where the only thing that matter is MOAR SHIPS, it's not just more DPS anymore. It's more DPS + Ships now, with all that mentioned, my ideas. I have played more games then I can count and in every game I have noticed that there are just people that love their class and want to be that class, you see them on another class and they just totally mess everything up, but when you see them in the class they like - it's like magic, they are the best of the best and nothing can surpass them. So why not give rewards based on what people love to use/be?
My ideas:
CRUISERS
What are cruisers?... Cruisers are designed to take damage and sustain it, they stay alive so the escorts do the damage. They aren't meant to do damage or out DPS everything. I am not saying that they can not do it, I am saying that it is not their role. So, if you are in a match with a group, how about giving rewards to the player that comes in first place based on taking the most damage?
That is what the Cruisers do, they take damage and you aren't going to sustain more damage then a Cruiser does unless you are a cruiser yourself, it's common sense. So whatever player takes the most damage in the group - give them specifically, one of the following rewards:
1. Very Rare Engineering Console.
2. Very Rare Shield Emitter.
It's what they need - common sense.
SCIENCE SHIPS
What ship can do more exotic damage then a science ship?.. None. That is the main damage output they have and can do. If rewards are based on DPS, then have the game reward the player who does the most Exotic damage. Then give them a reward accordingly like it should do.
1. Exotic Damage Science Console.
2. Secondary & Primary Deflectors (one of which ever).
It's what they need - common sense.
ESCORTS
All they care about is DPS, so let them have it. They run all over the place at the highest speed, go in and out attacking, do crazy damage, but get the job down. So they should get rewarded accordingly as well based on the who does the most damage in the end.
1. Torpedo or Beam or Cannon reward.
2. Tactical Console or Maneuvering Consoles.
It is what they need - common sense.
A.I.
The Artificial Intelligence in the game can also get some adjustments to make the matches for interesting. So these matches don't get duh and boring with the everyone knowing exactly what they are facing everything they get in to battle, make the mobs one faces totally random. I'm not saying random as in - you are now fighting KDF and all of a sudden you are fighting FED ships, no... I mean give the A.I. roles as well.
1. Ships resistant to Polaron + Antiproton - weak vs Plasma.
2. Ships resistant to Disruptor + Plasma - weak vs Polaron.
3. Ships who have resistance to every damage type except kinetic.
4. Ships that have resistance against every damage except exotic damage.
5. Small fighter ships that have purely 100% shield penetration to harass the player.
6. Ships that are medics and heal others - resistant to exotic damage and controls but not resistant to all damage.
Give a variety, just not the same thing and let these ship classes in matches spawn randomly, not that the match ALWAYS has to have these specific in it. This way people also need to adjust the weapons they have and are using. It gives the game more interaction with you and your weapons. Not just that you have one weapon and you kill everything perfectly with it because everything in the game is not specific to a certain damage.
Fact of the matter is that based on the role you take on your ship is the rewards you will earn. So if you are a Cruiser, you don't have to worry about getting something you know you do not want, you can rest assured you will more likely get something that is for your ship and class - thus making you want to keep playing your cruiser and do what you do best > Tank.
Now, Cruisers and Science ships can also get specific rewards for based on their heals too. Cruisers can hull heal other players while Science ships can heal other players shields. Escort do not worry about healing other players, nor their shields or hull at all. So giving a reward for the person who has the highest shield or hull heal to a friendly ship - should get also rewarded.
At least with this reward system I have mentioned players would be getting rewards they can actually use and even need because they know if they get into a match they will be rewarded accordingly based on their role - not just the DPS they do.
The A.I. system I mentioned also helps the players who are in groups that do not even have escorts for maximum DPS. Just switch to what weapon the mobs are weaker against and you can do it without needing a crazy TRIBBLE DPS escort around. Now I'm not saying that escorts will be obsolete, I'm saying that without an escort they still have a good chance of winning!
While you're unlikely to run into a 100k ship in a pug, if you've gone old school tank with no damage but massive threat modifiers to that no damage you're still not going to be tanking anything if the rest of the team is even close to half ways competent.
Old school "I do no damage but have high threat" tanks need to be nuked from orbit and then thrown into a black hole. That's outdated (and poor) game design to enforce an unneeded trinity.
A tank should be able to, and be expected to, do decent damage.
Same with a healer.
Just like DPS should be expected to be tougher than the wet tissue paper of trinity games.
This is the correct assessment of how tanks, healers and support ships function in PvE in this game. Those roles still needs to deal damage or in a way still deal damage.
The biggest problem is that everything can be solved in STO with MOAR POWER!!!
Need to finish a mission quicker = more DPS
Need to beat a big boss = more DPS
Farming marks? = more DPS
Want to be good in PVP = more DPS
There is literally nothing in the game that more DPS can't make faster, easier or more efficient.
And that is the problem, there's really no point in playing any other way unless you like you fly a different style of ship.
Plus additional to that is the fact that even if you min-max it and go for full-on massive DPS you can still tank better than most NPCs you'll encounter. So you have players with massive DPS who don't need or use heals and can tank most targets. Plus add in some science tricks and you've got players who can run the whole "trinity" through one ship.
That just shouldn't be possible, but it is.
More DPS should = lower surivability
Yes, this is true. More DPS means more efficient playtime. But can all players qualify for such level of DPS? If so, there should be 100k or more players in the 75k+ DPS channel and all space elite mission be filled both in private and public by the thousands of queues. But it has never happened nor has happened yet.
You still have majority of players to tinker with all types or roles, ships, weapons, etc.
LoL there are many pvper, good ones too, on the DPS league of tables which is strange to be honest. In my case, the only league table I'd ever want to be on would be PvP based, such as the one Hilbert did. I don't give a TRIBBLE one way or another about the DPS league table.
Except those who you claim to be PvPers in the DPS league arent the ones telling everyone that PvE is easy. I believe this is restricted to known hard core PvPers trying to claim in the forums that the PvE missions are very easy but cannot prove their worth of claims.
Because if you try to encompass past PvPers and/or current avid PvPers then that will include almost everyone in the ToP DPS including me.
Had any of top DPS said it is easy, for example a player from top 15 say it is easy. Then most likely people will believe that player. However, that "easyness" is restricted for players at his/her level of skill. Since you have no proof that missions are easy for you or the OP, if for example both of you say PvE is so easy, People , including myself wont believe nor respect you or the OPs claims. The same thing can be said if I claim that i can do 1 Million DPS in ISA recently. I can claim but no proof.
I really have no idea why I'm even going to post ideas here if everyone knows that Cryptic/PWE isn't going to do anything at all to begin with.
Cause it can fester and gnaw at a person if they don't vent a wee bit from time to time - which could include offering suggestions that they know will likely be ignored...but at least they got it out instead of holding it in. When folks hold stuff in, don't bleed a little of the pressure off from time to time, they can end up showing up on the forums one day and just complete snap...
Old school "I do no damage but have high threat" tanks need to be nuked from orbit and then thrown into a black hole. That's outdated (and poor) game design to enforce an unneeded trinity.
It has its place. There's a reason why so many people want a trinity.
The real problem, as I see it, is that content just isn't very engaging for the tank any longer. New school MMOers can't even be asked to wait around long enough to discuss and apply CC before a fight. That impatience undermines so much of what can make tanking interesting. The result has been to make tanking extremely easy from a threat management perspective, or to attempt to eliminate it entirely.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
It has its place. There's a reason why so many people want a trinity.
It's less confusing for some folks.
Alfred, Betty, Charlie, Darlene, and Eric queue for an instance.
Alfred's a tank.
Betty's a healer.
Charlie, Darlene, and Eric are DPS.
Straightforward.
Alfred, Betty, Charlie, Darlene, and Eric queue for an instance.
Alfred, Betty, and Charlie are tanks.
Darlene and Eric are healers.
Ruh roh, what now?
* * * * *
It's less competitive for some folks.
Alfred, Betty, Charlie, Darlene, and Eric queue for an instance.
Alfred's a tank.
Betty's a healer.
Charlie, Darlene, and Eric are DPS.
While Alfred might be "competing" to hold aggro against what Betty, Charlie, Darlene, and Eric are doing - Alfred's not competing with another tank to hold that aggro.
While Betty might be "competing" with the damage coming the group's way - Betty's not competing with another healer doing healing.
While Charlie, Darlene, and Eric might compete up to a point - there is that point - they can't draw aggro away from the tank or they'll likely end up dead and possibly even wipe the party.
In STO though...might have four of the five players running both Reciprocity and All Hands On Deck trying to grab some aggro to feed their damage capacity...they're fighting each other in a sense.
When pretty much everybody can do everything...folks might start working against one another instead of with one another.
It has its place. There's a reason why so many people want a trinity.
Sure there is.
It's the people who can't deal with actually needing to cover everything. Then instead of dealing with their own failings, they can go blame other people for their failures.
Remember back in Escorts Online when all the crappy escorts would blame cruisers and science ships for not tanking/healing them?
Having to ensure your own defense and offense seems to be far too difficult for some folks. So much easier to make tanks with zero offense and all defense, or strikers with all offense and no defense. No judgment or knowledge necessary.
Alfred, Betty, Charlie, Darlene, and Eric queue for an instance.
Alfred, Betty, and Charlie are tanks.
Darlene and Eric are healers.
Ruh roh, what now?
* * * * *
But to that...I say...adapt.
Yes, that's where folks have to recognize who has aggro and adapt tactics quickly and accordingly. That's why the current tank build designs should offer a balance of taking damage and dishing it out. Few times will it be the same amongst the tanks, so the variation will sort out who will get aggro most of the time. If you run a STF with 3 good tanks, 2 tanks can switch to a DPS/ healer role to boost the main tank's ability to survive, instead of DPS/ aggro role. There should still be good DPS coming from the tanks, just one tank is holding aggro. This confuses a lot of folks who go into an STF thinking they will do X when they should quickly recognize that another player is doing X and they need to change to Y. So, the comment that you should adapt is totally true.
So STO is the only MMO I've ever stayed with. More because it's 'Trek' than for the awesome gameplay. I tried WoW back around 2000 and gave up after like 2 days because I just found it boring. So I'm not super knowledgeable about all things in MMO classes.
That said, here's how I play. I'm an engineer in a FA. It's near indestructible. So I imagine myself as the Enterprise in the opening battle of First Contact. The Defiant (tac guy in his glass cannon) is just about to get smoked, when someone says "Sir, there's another ship coming in. It's the Crazy Horse" (my main's ship) and I fly in and just suck up the damage and deal a respectable amount back as I fly right into the middle and draw aggro and let the tacs do their damage thing.
I can pretty much stop still between the Transformer and Gate in ISA and keep my health solid until the transformer blows. And yes I spam BFAW and A2B with my leech powered, VL maxed antiproton beams the whole time. It's there, it works, it's fun to watch. It might not follow some sacred MMO rule, but it's pretty awesome to see my ship effectively engage every target within 10km. I don't know why everyone else is here, but I'm here for the fun. And that is fun.
Well STO never really had Tank or Healer rolls as anyone who had these rolls did nothing but dps, been in many ground stfs and sci officer never sent a single heal or eng never recharged my shields, in space it's almost the same thing. Only difference is there people in sci ships do some CC.
So some things Crypic could do (blizzard did something like this for wow's WoD xpac), have player pick a roll: tank, cc, support, dps. Then have them que up for a solo event for that roll (and not make it easy) and you must complete it (with chance at failling, like if tank roll, if you don't control the aggo the friendly npc's all die). Once complete it you can que up for grp stf's as that roll, also must complete this event for each difficulty, like normal, advanced at lvl 50+ and elite at lvl 60. But any pre-50 que can still be que'd regardless if you did this solo event.
But downside of this is STO really has no set rolls, as a Sci officer can build a escort as a light tank.
And on ground any class can tank if setup right, I remember seeing a Sci officer tank and solo kill Borg queen on elite stf back in season 4 (I don't play ground much so not sure if that is still possible)
It's the people who can't deal with actually needing to cover everything. Then instead of dealing with their own failings, they can go blame other people for their failures.
Remember back in Escorts Online when all the crappy escorts would blame cruisers and science ships for not tanking/healing them?
Having to ensure your own defense and offense seems to be far too difficult for some folks. So much easier to make tanks with zero offense and all defense, or strikers with all offense and no defense. No judgment or knowledge necessary.
So your argument is that we shouldnt fall back to a more sound game design because people will stomp their feet and blame others when they fail?
Funny enough....People still do that even in the games current state. And regardless of what direction Cryptic was to take on this issue. People would continue to find ways to blame others.
But sure. Lets not do anything because some people might act like children.
So your argument is that we shouldnt fall back to a more sound game design because people will stomp their feet and blame others when they fail?
Funny enough....People still do that even in the games current state. And regardless of what direction Cryptic was to take on this issue. People would continue to find ways to blame others.
But sure. Lets not do anything because some people might act like children.
My argument is that we shouldn't fall back to older ****ty old game design in reaction to the people you just pointed out in your second paragraph, because it wouldn't change anything.
They're going to complain anyway, because when those are the kind of people who refuse to accept responsibility for their failure and blame other people. So right now they blame the game, and when the trinity is necessary they'll just blame other players.
So your argument is that we shouldnt fall back to a more sound game design because people will stomp their feet and blame others when they fail?
Funny enough....People still do that even in the games current state. And regardless of what direction Cryptic was to take on this issue. People would continue to find ways to blame others.
But sure. Lets not do anything because some people might act like children.
They're going to complain anyway, because when those are the kind of people who refuse to accept responsibility for their failure and blame other people. So right now they blame the game, and when the trinity is necessary they'll just blame other players.
Censoredcraft "wisdom": if the tank dies, it's the healer's fault, if the healer dies, it's the tank's fault, if DPS dies, who cares?
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
if the tank dies, it's the healer's fault, if the healer dies, it's the tank's fault, if DPS dies, who cares?
IF DPS dies, and there is a tank who has aggro and is fighting to stay alive, praying the next heal will come sooner than later, why did the DPSer die? Is it because the DPSer went ahead of the team and ahead of the tanks aggro? Was it a failed attempt to get GDF by snuggling up to something for a warp core breach?
If the tank can't hold aggro, it should have plenty of heals to function as a healer.
The "healer" is everyone. Nearly everyone has some heal, buff, something they could use on a teammate to help them. Failure to help teammates when you have the means to do so is a sad, sad issue with teams these days.
The "healer" is everyone. Nearly everyone has some heal, buff, something they could use on a teammate to help them. Failure to help teammates when you have the means to do so is a sad, sad issue with teams these days.
The UI isn't friendly to helping friendlies. At least they changed sensor analysis so it wouldn't break every time you changed targets.
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
The UI is alright to help one friendly, because we can pin them. Used to do that for NWS.
Really though, the reason trinity sucks is because most people suck.
If you get a crappy healer or a crappy tank, the rest of the team is screwed. You can't get yourself good enough to be able to offset the suckiness of particular team members because in a trinity system, the roles are enforced.
Here in STO, if 4 people are weak (but not utterly incompetent) the 5th can bring up the average DPS and tank such that we succeed. (Exceptions being the queues where teamwork and coordination trump everything else.) So you can offset any weakness in the other members of your team.
In an enforced trinity system, it's impossible to do that. You can't build any particular role to the point where they don't need the others, and the other roles are necessary for success. So one good player can't bring up a team of weak players, you need at least one good player in each role.
(In Neverwinter, that's four competent players per team because there are four roles: Tank to grab & hold aggro on the big threats, Healer to keep the Tank upright while he soaks damage, CC to deal with the minions, DPS to actually kill the things. Losing one makes things harder, losing two makes things extremely difficult, and only have one makes it impossible. Utter frustration when you fill your role perfectly but fail because somebody else can't do theirs.)
Really though, the reason trinity sucks is because most people suck.
IMO - The reason the Trinity sucks is because if you DO have content that absolutely requires it, and you can't get the ONE type you need for such a group, your evening gameplay experience consists of broadcasting accross the server:
"STF Group needs <X> PST!" where <X> = "Tank/Healer/DPS"
That was the paradigm of early EverQuest back in the day (circa 1999-2004 the years I played), and honestly sitting in zone for two hours on nights where you DIDN'T get the group dynamic you needed really sucked - hard.
I on't miss the days of the 'Trinity' or forced grouping to advance. MMOs are and should remain games, not glorified 3D chat rooms. YMMV - but I for one don't miss the 'old days' of MMOs much.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
IMO - The reason the Trinity sucks is because if you DO have content that absolutely requires it, and you can't get the ONE type you need for such a group, your evening gameplay experience consists of broadcasting accross the server:
"STF Group needs <X> PST!" where <X> = "Tank/Healer/DPS"
That was the paradigm of early EverQuest back in the day (circa 1999-2004 the years I played), and honestly sitting in zone for two hours on nights where you DIDN'T get the group dynamic you needed really sucked - hard.
I on't miss the days of the 'Trinity' or forced grouping to advance. MMOs are and should remain games, not glorified 3D chat rooms. YMMV - but I for one don't miss the 'old days' of MMOs much.
That's why Hybrids were born - and I have been a hybrid player for as long as I played MMOs so I know that sometimes your "2nd class role" puts you in the corner. Still, I never experienced total stagnation because of a missing class.
I think if you'd allow every player to be able to spec to a certain role on the fly it could help - but the content should require different roles, otherwise you just get a mindless slugfest.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
The UI isn't friendly to helping friendlies. At least they changed sensor analysis so it wouldn't break every time you changed targets.
I have no major troubles sending heals to others when I have heals to spare. The UI lag causes one to have to double/ triple click sometimes to send stuff, but no major troubles.
I have keybinds to target/ send heals to teammates. Teammate 1 is F1, 2 is F2, 3 is F3, and 4 is F4.
I adapted and found a way that works for me to perform the function. It's not perfect, but it does work.
Would be nifty to have both Offensive and Defensive Focus Targets, imho.
Clicking on or cycling through friendlies and not losing your offensive target would be a great quality of life feature. It'd even be friendly to gamepads and such that can't spare 4+ buttons or chords for targeting friendlies.
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Comments
Parked against an attacker without Bonus Accuracy, my T5 (non-Upgrade/non-Fleet) B'rel has 15.3% Bonus Defense meaning an attacker has an 86.7% To-Hit going against me.
-15% for 0 speed.
+15% for 9 Starship Maneuvering Systems.
+10% for Elusive.
+5.3% for 1 pt in Intelligence Officer.
Escort +10% does not apply unless moving.
If I go to 1/4 impulse at min Eng Power (43/15) for a speed of 6.2 Impulse, my Bonus Defense jumps to 35.2%. That's a To-Hit of 73.9%.
As that Delta Recruit levels, there will be further increases to the Bonus Defense. And there are plenty of other sources as well. I can sit there or move at a snail's pace while the NPCs fire at me like they're blindfolded.
With the sheer amount of both passive/active heals/resists/buffs/debuffs/etc...what Escort couldn't park 'n shoot? I mean, maybe if there was some loadout issue or something.
It's what I generally do when I hit up a queue...I'm doing that mix of Tank/Heals/Support/CrowdControl/Buff/Debuff without giving much thought to the DPS. Cause the DPS basically takes care of itself. I'm only doing the 10-20k stuff, so it's not like I'm having to put any effort into it like the 75k+ guys...I just move from spot to spot as the weapons/etc do their thing and try to grab aggro, try to keep folks alive, debuff targets to increase the DPS of the group, buff the team to increase the DPS of the group, etc, etc, etc.
I hate to agree with paxdawn, but there are a lot of PvP folks that talk about PvE being such and such...and...well, they're nowhere to be found on the DPS League tables there. If it's all so easy and mindless...a good way to back that up would be with something other than words.
My FPE-r can.
~60% resistance, from Armor consoles and Aux to ID DOff.
ET3. RSP 2. Aux to SIF 1. HE, TSS, EPtS.
With the Pathfinder/Dauntless Traits and the Samsar console, it's a veritable tank with 30k+ DPS... provided the Lag Monster doesn't eat my heals when I need them to pop off.
also Epohh farts.............i just about busted my gut when lol'ing after i read that...............
Mine trap phase 2 and in phase 4 more DPs is potentially bad if you're confused
First half of undine infiltration
Getting the shields down on undine planetkillers or capturing points with kdf or romulan devices (past a minimum point well below 5k more doesn't matter you twiddle your thumbs waiting for the same time at 200k or 8k)
Crafting
Lots of foundry missions
Cold comfort
I can keep going
Literally we should just agree that literally literally means figuratively most of the time. ~.^
Such a game mode is already available.
It's called PvP. :P
Pretty much, because in the majority of cases, if they were to try and bring trinity roles into this game, people would still get it wrong the majority of times, at least with this system it's a single minded focus.
If at first you don't succeed, than bring a bigger hammer!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
First I will say that to re-balanced everything in the game, including;
1. Re-program the A.I.
2. Re-balancing every class and ship.
Takes a TRIBBLE load of time.
Time that Cryptic/PWE we all know will not take or consider at any moment. Where we are standing right now is in a game where the only thing that matter is MOAR SHIPS, it's not just more DPS anymore. It's more DPS + Ships now, with all that mentioned, my ideas. I have played more games then I can count and in every game I have noticed that there are just people that love their class and want to be that class, you see them on another class and they just totally mess everything up, but when you see them in the class they like - it's like magic, they are the best of the best and nothing can surpass them. So why not give rewards based on what people love to use/be?
My ideas:
CRUISERS
What are cruisers?... Cruisers are designed to take damage and sustain it, they stay alive so the escorts do the damage. They aren't meant to do damage or out DPS everything. I am not saying that they can not do it, I am saying that it is not their role. So, if you are in a match with a group, how about giving rewards to the player that comes in first place based on taking the most damage?
That is what the Cruisers do, they take damage and you aren't going to sustain more damage then a Cruiser does unless you are a cruiser yourself, it's common sense. So whatever player takes the most damage in the group - give them specifically, one of the following rewards:
1. Very Rare Engineering Console.
2. Very Rare Shield Emitter.
It's what they need - common sense.
SCIENCE SHIPS
What ship can do more exotic damage then a science ship?.. None. That is the main damage output they have and can do. If rewards are based on DPS, then have the game reward the player who does the most Exotic damage. Then give them a reward accordingly like it should do.
1. Exotic Damage Science Console.
2. Secondary & Primary Deflectors (one of which ever).
It's what they need - common sense.
ESCORTS
All they care about is DPS, so let them have it. They run all over the place at the highest speed, go in and out attacking, do crazy damage, but get the job down. So they should get rewarded accordingly as well based on the who does the most damage in the end.
1. Torpedo or Beam or Cannon reward.
2. Tactical Console or Maneuvering Consoles.
It is what they need - common sense.
A.I.
The Artificial Intelligence in the game can also get some adjustments to make the matches for interesting. So these matches don't get duh and boring with the everyone knowing exactly what they are facing everything they get in to battle, make the mobs one faces totally random. I'm not saying random as in - you are now fighting KDF and all of a sudden you are fighting FED ships, no... I mean give the A.I. roles as well.
1. Ships resistant to Polaron + Antiproton - weak vs Plasma.
2. Ships resistant to Disruptor + Plasma - weak vs Polaron.
3. Ships who have resistance to every damage type except kinetic.
4. Ships that have resistance against every damage except exotic damage.
5. Small fighter ships that have purely 100% shield penetration to harass the player.
6. Ships that are medics and heal others - resistant to exotic damage and controls but not resistant to all damage.
Give a variety, just not the same thing and let these ship classes in matches spawn randomly, not that the match ALWAYS has to have these specific in it. This way people also need to adjust the weapons they have and are using. It gives the game more interaction with you and your weapons. Not just that you have one weapon and you kill everything perfectly with it because everything in the game is not specific to a certain damage.
Fact of the matter is that based on the role you take on your ship is the rewards you will earn. So if you are a Cruiser, you don't have to worry about getting something you know you do not want, you can rest assured you will more likely get something that is for your ship and class - thus making you want to keep playing your cruiser and do what you do best > Tank.
Now, Cruisers and Science ships can also get specific rewards for based on their heals too. Cruisers can hull heal other players while Science ships can heal other players shields. Escort do not worry about healing other players, nor their shields or hull at all. So giving a reward for the person who has the highest shield or hull heal to a friendly ship - should get also rewarded.
At least with this reward system I have mentioned players would be getting rewards they can actually use and even need because they know if they get into a match they will be rewarded accordingly based on their role - not just the DPS they do.
The A.I. system I mentioned also helps the players who are in groups that do not even have escorts for maximum DPS. Just switch to what weapon the mobs are weaker against and you can do it without needing a crazy TRIBBLE DPS escort around. Now I'm not saying that escorts will be obsolete, I'm saying that without an escort they still have a good chance of winning!
This is the correct assessment of how tanks, healers and support ships function in PvE in this game. Those roles still needs to deal damage or in a way still deal damage.
Yes, this is true. More DPS means more efficient playtime. But can all players qualify for such level of DPS? If so, there should be 100k or more players in the 75k+ DPS channel and all space elite mission be filled both in private and public by the thousands of queues. But it has never happened nor has happened yet.
You still have majority of players to tinker with all types or roles, ships, weapons, etc.
Except those who you claim to be PvPers in the DPS league arent the ones telling everyone that PvE is easy. I believe this is restricted to known hard core PvPers trying to claim in the forums that the PvE missions are very easy but cannot prove their worth of claims.
Because if you try to encompass past PvPers and/or current avid PvPers then that will include almost everyone in the ToP DPS including me.
Had any of top DPS said it is easy, for example a player from top 15 say it is easy. Then most likely people will believe that player. However, that "easyness" is restricted for players at his/her level of skill. Since you have no proof that missions are easy for you or the OP, if for example both of you say PvE is so easy, People , including myself wont believe nor respect you or the OPs claims. The same thing can be said if I claim that i can do 1 Million DPS in ISA recently. I can claim but no proof.
Cause it can fester and gnaw at a person if they don't vent a wee bit from time to time - which could include offering suggestions that they know will likely be ignored...but at least they got it out instead of holding it in. When folks hold stuff in, don't bleed a little of the pressure off from time to time, they can end up showing up on the forums one day and just complete snap...
that's why it is old, it's not the modern version.
The real problem, as I see it, is that content just isn't very engaging for the tank any longer. New school MMOers can't even be asked to wait around long enough to discuss and apply CC before a fight. That impatience undermines so much of what can make tanking interesting. The result has been to make tanking extremely easy from a threat management perspective, or to attempt to eliminate it entirely.
It's less confusing for some folks.
Alfred, Betty, Charlie, Darlene, and Eric queue for an instance.
Alfred's a tank.
Betty's a healer.
Charlie, Darlene, and Eric are DPS.
Straightforward.
Alfred, Betty, Charlie, Darlene, and Eric queue for an instance.
Alfred, Betty, and Charlie are tanks.
Darlene and Eric are healers.
Ruh roh, what now?
* * * * *
It's less competitive for some folks.
Alfred, Betty, Charlie, Darlene, and Eric queue for an instance.
Alfred's a tank.
Betty's a healer.
Charlie, Darlene, and Eric are DPS.
While Alfred might be "competing" to hold aggro against what Betty, Charlie, Darlene, and Eric are doing - Alfred's not competing with another tank to hold that aggro.
While Betty might be "competing" with the damage coming the group's way - Betty's not competing with another healer doing healing.
While Charlie, Darlene, and Eric might compete up to a point - there is that point - they can't draw aggro away from the tank or they'll likely end up dead and possibly even wipe the party.
In STO though...might have four of the five players running both Reciprocity and All Hands On Deck trying to grab some aggro to feed their damage capacity...they're fighting each other in a sense.
When pretty much everybody can do everything...folks might start working against one another instead of with one another.
* * * * *
But to that...I say...adapt.
Sure there is.
It's the people who can't deal with actually needing to cover everything. Then instead of dealing with their own failings, they can go blame other people for their failures.
Remember back in Escorts Online when all the crappy escorts would blame cruisers and science ships for not tanking/healing them?
Having to ensure your own defense and offense seems to be far too difficult for some folks. So much easier to make tanks with zero offense and all defense, or strikers with all offense and no defense. No judgment or knowledge necessary.
Yes, that's where folks have to recognize who has aggro and adapt tactics quickly and accordingly. That's why the current tank build designs should offer a balance of taking damage and dishing it out. Few times will it be the same amongst the tanks, so the variation will sort out who will get aggro most of the time. If you run a STF with 3 good tanks, 2 tanks can switch to a DPS/ healer role to boost the main tank's ability to survive, instead of DPS/ aggro role. There should still be good DPS coming from the tanks, just one tank is holding aggro. This confuses a lot of folks who go into an STF thinking they will do X when they should quickly recognize that another player is doing X and they need to change to Y. So, the comment that you should adapt is totally true.
That said, here's how I play. I'm an engineer in a FA. It's near indestructible. So I imagine myself as the Enterprise in the opening battle of First Contact. The Defiant (tac guy in his glass cannon) is just about to get smoked, when someone says "Sir, there's another ship coming in. It's the Crazy Horse" (my main's ship) and I fly in and just suck up the damage and deal a respectable amount back as I fly right into the middle and draw aggro and let the tacs do their damage thing.
I can pretty much stop still between the Transformer and Gate in ISA and keep my health solid until the transformer blows. And yes I spam BFAW and A2B with my leech powered, VL maxed antiproton beams the whole time. It's there, it works, it's fun to watch. It might not follow some sacred MMO rule, but it's pretty awesome to see my ship effectively engage every target within 10km. I don't know why everyone else is here, but I'm here for the fun. And that is fun.
So some things Crypic could do (blizzard did something like this for wow's WoD xpac), have player pick a roll: tank, cc, support, dps. Then have them que up for a solo event for that roll (and not make it easy) and you must complete it (with chance at failling, like if tank roll, if you don't control the aggo the friendly npc's all die). Once complete it you can que up for grp stf's as that roll, also must complete this event for each difficulty, like normal, advanced at lvl 50+ and elite at lvl 60. But any pre-50 que can still be que'd regardless if you did this solo event.
But downside of this is STO really has no set rolls, as a Sci officer can build a escort as a light tank.
And on ground any class can tank if setup right, I remember seeing a Sci officer tank and solo kill Borg queen on elite stf back in season 4 (I don't play ground much so not sure if that is still possible)
So your argument is that we shouldnt fall back to a more sound game design because people will stomp their feet and blame others when they fail?
Funny enough....People still do that even in the games current state. And regardless of what direction Cryptic was to take on this issue. People would continue to find ways to blame others.
But sure. Lets not do anything because some people might act like children.
My argument is that we shouldn't fall back to older ****ty old game design in reaction to the people you just pointed out in your second paragraph, because it wouldn't change anything.
They're going to complain anyway, because when those are the kind of people who refuse to accept responsibility for their failure and blame other people. So right now they blame the game, and when the trinity is necessary they'll just blame other players.
Trinity is lazy game design, not solid.
Censoredcraft "wisdom": if the tank dies, it's the healer's fault, if the healer dies, it's the tank's fault, if DPS dies, who cares?
IF DPS dies, and there is a tank who has aggro and is fighting to stay alive, praying the next heal will come sooner than later, why did the DPSer die? Is it because the DPSer went ahead of the team and ahead of the tanks aggro? Was it a failed attempt to get GDF by snuggling up to something for a warp core breach?
If the tank can't hold aggro, it should have plenty of heals to function as a healer.
The "healer" is everyone. Nearly everyone has some heal, buff, something they could use on a teammate to help them. Failure to help teammates when you have the means to do so is a sad, sad issue with teams these days.
The UI isn't friendly to helping friendlies. At least they changed sensor analysis so it wouldn't break every time you changed targets.
Really though, the reason trinity sucks is because most people suck.
If you get a crappy healer or a crappy tank, the rest of the team is screwed. You can't get yourself good enough to be able to offset the suckiness of particular team members because in a trinity system, the roles are enforced.
Here in STO, if 4 people are weak (but not utterly incompetent) the 5th can bring up the average DPS and tank such that we succeed. (Exceptions being the queues where teamwork and coordination trump everything else.) So you can offset any weakness in the other members of your team.
In an enforced trinity system, it's impossible to do that. You can't build any particular role to the point where they don't need the others, and the other roles are necessary for success. So one good player can't bring up a team of weak players, you need at least one good player in each role.
(In Neverwinter, that's four competent players per team because there are four roles: Tank to grab & hold aggro on the big threats, Healer to keep the Tank upright while he soaks damage, CC to deal with the minions, DPS to actually kill the things. Losing one makes things harder, losing two makes things extremely difficult, and only have one makes it impossible. Utter frustration when you fill your role perfectly but fail because somebody else can't do theirs.)
IMO - The reason the Trinity sucks is because if you DO have content that absolutely requires it, and you can't get the ONE type you need for such a group, your evening gameplay experience consists of broadcasting accross the server:
"STF Group needs <X> PST!" where <X> = "Tank/Healer/DPS"
That was the paradigm of early EverQuest back in the day (circa 1999-2004 the years I played), and honestly sitting in zone for two hours on nights where you DIDN'T get the group dynamic you needed really sucked - hard.
I on't miss the days of the 'Trinity' or forced grouping to advance. MMOs are and should remain games, not glorified 3D chat rooms. YMMV - but I for one don't miss the 'old days' of MMOs much.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
That's why Hybrids were born - and I have been a hybrid player for as long as I played MMOs so I know that sometimes your "2nd class role" puts you in the corner. Still, I never experienced total stagnation because of a missing class.
I think if you'd allow every player to be able to spec to a certain role on the fly it could help - but the content should require different roles, otherwise you just get a mindless slugfest.
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I have no major troubles sending heals to others when I have heals to spare. The UI lag causes one to have to double/ triple click sometimes to send stuff, but no major troubles.
I have keybinds to target/ send heals to teammates. Teammate 1 is F1, 2 is F2, 3 is F3, and 4 is F4.
I adapted and found a way that works for me to perform the function. It's not perfect, but it does work.
Clicking on or cycling through friendlies and not losing your offensive target would be a great quality of life feature. It'd even be friendly to gamepads and such that can't spare 4+ buttons or chords for targeting friendlies.