Like if i throw enough Money at it can i buy all the best stuff riht out of the Exchange. Or are there still items stuff that have to be grind that are bind on pickup or somthing similar?
no nothing is pay to win only but buying zenn and spending it half wise yes half wise is out of control $10 zenn perchase rounds out to about 100 hours of gameplay on 12 toons that's madness now if you spent it perfectly $100 bucks could get your new accounts first toon to endgame in a month when delta rising has intentionally destroyed the chance to get first toon to endgame under 200 hours like a year ago now its like 500 hours for free to play to get to end game on first toon and that's assuming the new player is an experienced mmorpg pro
Yes, it is. They're advantages that can't be reached by normal gameplay, without someone purchasing something for real money. It's become pay-to-win in it's truest sense.
There are no advantages that can't be reached by normal gameplay in STO. That is the one and only factor that determines if a game is pay-to-win or not. It's the one and only thing the pay-to-win complaint was phrased and created for.
Someone else purchasing something for real money is utterly irrelevant.
If a game is pay to win, then you would have to pay in order to win.
You can get everything in STO without ever having to pay.
Therefore, by contradiction, STO is not pay to win.
Quod erat demonstrandum.
Your definition the phrase is utterly meaningless for any and every discussion relating to MMOs, which is why it's not only completely and utterly wrong, it's entirely nonsensical. There is no context in which your definition is useful or relevant, failing at being a descriptor to be disingenuously used as an epithet.
Love how you deliberately disobeyed the mod requesting we cease discussion on what "free to play" means directly after the mod request five days after said request, thereby making it obviously a deliberate and premeditated act of disobedience. Trying to get the last word and the thread closed, eh?
There are no advantages that can't be reached by normal gameplay in STO. That is the one and only factor that determines if a game is pay-to-win or not. It's the one and only thing the pay-to-win complaint was phrased and created for.
Someone else purchasing something for real money is utterly irrelevant.
If a game is pay to win, then you would have to pay in order to win.
You can get everything in STO without ever having to pay.
Therefore, by contradiction, STO is not pay to win.
Quod erat demonstrandum.
Your definition the phrase is utterly meaningless for any and every discussion relating to MMOs, which is why it's not only completely and utterly wrong, it's entirely nonsensical. There is no context in which your definition is useful or relevant, failing at being a descriptor to be disingenuously used as an epithet.
Love how you deliberately disobeyed the mod requesting we cease discussion on what "free to play" means directly after the mod request five days after said request, thereby making it obviously a deliberate and premeditated act of disobedience. Trying to get the last word and the thread closed, eh?
Time matters. If you have to wait for grind, then you can't win now. You are the loser now. If you want to win now, you must pay now to buy the gear now. That is also pay to win. What you are talking about is wait-to-win, which is not at all the same thing as pay-to-win.
There are no advantages that can't be reached by normal gameplay in STO. That is the one and only factor that determines if a game is pay-to-win or not.
Your definition of "p2w" is as meaningless as anyones else, if we cant all somewhat agree on it.
It's the one and only thing the pay-to-win complaint was phrased and created for.
It also has to represent how we use the term today not how it originated. It makes no sense pointing to what a term org. meant if the actual usage did change.
If you did read this thread you already noticed that many players have widely different opinions on what the term "p2w" means in the STO context. Now broaden your horizon and include all MMO's and you get even more opinions.
The term is so ill defined that its actually counter productive trying to define what it "means", since we cant even agree on a game per game basis what "win" means, since most MMO's have no clear defined "win" condition/scenario like a chess game.
What we can and should actually discuss is how a certain f2p business model/shop changes and interacts with its player base and community. So while "gold ammo" seems to-be not that of a big deal in WoT, i wonder how a similar business model would affect the counterstrike or LoL community?
I also wonder how ESO/WoW players would react if you transfer the Zen ship mastery trait + lockbox concept to those games?
There may be quibbling over details, but no part of any reasonable, useful definition of "pay to win" includes the actions of other people.
If Bill Gates were to play STO, buy out PWE/Cryptic and got rid of the cash shop and subscriptions so that everything is freely available, by any reasonable, useful definition the game would not be "pay to win" because none of us would have to pay a single cent to get everything.
Yet by the worthless definition I have been deriding, it would still be "pay to win" because Bill Gates is paying to keep the game going and getting us access to everything, and if somebody is paying, it's "pay to win". Ridiculous.
The entire point, the spirit, origin and primary use of the complaint, is if a player has to fork out real money to "win". If you don't, then it's not.
Then we get the stupid definitions where spending time is equal to spending money. By that definition every single game with a leveling system is "pay to win" because you have to spend time leveling up and getting new gear. A nonsensical and useless definition that fails to convey anything of worth.
Like if i throw enough Money at it can i buy all the best stuff riht out of the Exchange. Or are there still items stuff that have to be grind that are bind on pickup or somthing similar?
Regardless about how much money you use, the timegates and other grinding aspects will still stand in your way. You have to grind and spend wisely.
You need to pick and choose what to buy and grind.
I believe we have reached the end of the useful lifespan of this thread. We can dicker about this for another 100 pages and never reach a consensus.
The game is marketed as "Free to Play", which it is. 100%. Doesn't mean you can't spend money on the game, obviously, but there's no pay barrier to entry.
Is there a paywall that caps player advancement and/or performance? Depends on how you want to define advancement, performance, and paywall. We could be pedantic about it right down to defining pay and wall.
But that doesn't really help anybody come to a simple understanding.
If this thread has illustrated anything, it's that there's no simple answer to this very loaded question if we're not all following the same assumptions. And we're not.
I'm not going to close the thread... yet.
I am going to suggest that if you post another reply to this thread you might want to use your best closing arguments and rest your case.
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U can't buy levels. U can't buy rep. U have to grind.
Go ahead and keep grinding, bro. Especially Dilithium.
There were plenty of people around these boards saying there needs to be more Dilithium Sinks to reign in the ever soaring exchange rate of Dil. Well, there are more Dil sinks than ever before and the Dil exchange rate keeps climbing higher and higher and higher and higher and higher.
FYI, about 2 years ago the Dil exchange was about 86. What's it at now?
With all the things that cost Dilithium, buying Zen and exchanging it for Dil has been the biggest reward in getting Dil (not saying it's the best... big difference). Dil to use for getting better gear from various resources as well as upgrading them.
On the flip side if you want to grind Dil to truly stay playing "Free," you got your work cut out for you. In between all the Dil sinks, the exchange rate to use Dil to get Zen has climbed higher and higher and higher. Like I said, we are far from the days of 80-something exchange rate.
U can't buy levels. U can't buy rep. U have to grind.
But U CAN buy Lockbox/Lobi/C-Store/Promo ships.
But U CAN buy those same ships with fancy traits.
But U CAN buy fancy consoles.
But U CAN buy keys to sell.
But U CAN buy Promotion Items (R&D boxes, for instance) to sell.
And I'm sure I'm missing tons more. You can actually grind to get all that "For Free" but the ever soaring Dil Exchange Rate has made it more and more difficult and time consuming to do so.
FYI, about 2 years ago the Dil exchange was about 86. What's it at now?
86:1 Dil:Zen 2 years ago? 2 years ago would be March 2013. I can't verify that, but I can verify that it was exactly 89:1 on February 1, 2013.
That 6.5 months after the Fleet Starbase (July 12, 2012), and 2.5 months after the new Reputation System and Fleet Embassy.
Pretty much during a massive surge in Dilithium demand. Considerably more "sinks" than right now.
Back then we were in the middle of building Fleet holdings, grinding Fleet Credits, getting Fleet ships, while also getting new Romulan Reputation gear (RomPlas loadouts, anyone?) Now the Fleet Ships are only T5.5, Fleet holdings are maxed out for the major Fleets (who are the ones likely to grab the Dilithium for it anyway), Reputation weapons only go up to Mk XII, and the Upgrades aren't actually a major Dilithium sink because only a few things are really worth grinding upgrades for (the rest are kind of "meh, when you get around to it" in terms of returns).
Dilithium sinks are not at an all time high - the time period you pointed out is actually when Dilithium was most in demand, accurately reflected in the exchange rate.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,584Community Moderator
edited March 2015
When the DL exchange first came out, it was 300+:1.
The reason the rates are so high right now is the massive influx of Dilithium onto the market, and we don't have a fleet holding or equivelent sink to act as a counter balance.
For a long time Starbases and other Fleet Holdings were acting as a bit of a counterbalance, but as more and more fleets hit T5, the less demand for Dilithium.
We haven't had a new holding since... the Solanae Sphere?
Although, as the game progresses, it becomes, much, much harder for new players to catch up, without using real cash, up to a point where it indeed can be considered P2W, as the time needed to get competative is unrealistically high.
For example: most of the things on my own account have been "free". Full purple rosters of doffs, 5 Marion Dulmurs, tons of costumes, lockbox-ships, Zen-equipment, maxed out rep trees, EC that will probably last me until the game shuts down etc..., but I accomplished most of those feats while they were comperatively easy to do:
clickie-dailies, old Borg STFs, 400k EC lockbox keys, pre-mark nerf, infusing alien artifacts, console crafting, pre-loot-value-nerf, pre-doff-conversion-nerf, pre-doffing nerf, 75 Dil per Zen exchange rates, $5 Collectors Edition, buying lockbox consoles and doffs right on release date when they're still cheap as hell (Dulmur or Plasmonic leech for <500k EC) etc...
If I were to just get into the game today as a F2P, I'd probably have to spend 10 times the ingame time to get to the same "level", reaching the mentioned point, where it would simply become unrealistic to catch up without real cash.
Everything you write is true, yet it does not make the game P2W. PVP aside (because it is an obvious mess), pretty much nothing of the once so valuable things have any value anymore. While I still use plasmonic leech on all my ships, I'd say it isn't essential to play the game or win in PVE, neither are certain doffs.
You can get top tier ships for free, the best gear ingame costs dilithium (not even that much) and not ZEN. (even easier to get these days)
MK XII very rare gear literally pops out of boxes that are a byproduct of the reputation grind.
Even Lobi is free at certain times.
All this can make your ship "competitive" if you are willing to invest the time and I haven't even mentioned the dilithium exchange.
Sure all of this takes time, but time shouldn't be an issue while playing a computer game (and actually 1h a day is already plenty to not miss out on anything)
Anything worth getting in this game is not behind a "wallet gate" but rather a "time gate"...you still need to play to win. Your wallet can't take you to the top in this game. In SWTOR you either pay or you are stuck at the bottom = P2W.
86:1 Dil:Zen 2 years ago? 2 years ago would be March 2013. I can't verify that, but I can verify that it was exactly 89:1 on February 1, 2013.
That 6.5 months after the Fleet Starbase (July 12, 2012), and 2.5 months after the new Reputation System and Fleet Embassy.
Pretty much during a massive surge in Dilithium demand. Considerably more "sinks" than right now.
Back then we were in the middle of building Fleet holdings, grinding Fleet Credits, getting Fleet ships, while also getting new Romulan Reputation gear (RomPlas loadouts, anyone?) Now the Fleet Ships are only T5.5, Fleet holdings are maxed out for the major Fleets (who are the ones likely to grab the Dilithium for it anyway), Reputation weapons only go up to Mk XII, and the Upgrades aren't actually a major Dilithium sink because only a few things are really worth grinding upgrades for (the rest are kind of "meh, when you get around to it" in terms of returns).
Dilithium sinks are not at an all time high - the time period you pointed out is actually when Dilithium was most in demand, accurately reflected in the exchange rate.
Ahh, good that you want to bring up Fleet Starbases and Holdings! It is true what you say about the demand of Dilithium when Fleets were still building up compared to now where there's more maxed out. That's fine if you're in a fleet now that is maxed out. That isn't fine when you're in a fleet that isn't. Personally, it makes zero sense to join a fleet that isn't maxed out, esp if you're a Fed. But in reality, new Fleets are forming all the time still (just sit around ESD/First City, the Academy), and there's plenty of enough Fleets out there *STILL* toiling towards T5/Max. For members of the game that are still building their Fleet Holdings up, that old Dil Sink is *STILL* an expensive cost when you compound it with the costs of things these days.
Regarding the old school Dil Exchange Rates: It didn't stay in the 80s, or under 100 long. It steadily climbed up and up and up despite the presence of the Starbases that everyone was working on.
Also, regarding Upgrades, plenty of enough equipment groups have very desirable items that upgrade to strong levels. You know guys are competitive out there in getting their good equipment, esp Weapons, where the difference between XII and XIV is astronomical. Tack the costs still out there.
Side note: A friendly reminder that maybe a month or so ago, Cryptic raised the Technology costs (i.e. more Dil costs) for upgrading some Fleet gear now, which used to be cheap? That was ninja'd in.
Technically it's not a p2win game, but it's as close as it can be.
The best ships are from the Cstore (scimitard comes to mind) or the various gamblebox ingame. Or many awesome console/trait. Sure, you can buy the box ship through ingame money, which is better than gamble, but it leads to my second point.
Using zen will makes your life incredibly easier. Either by turning it to something to sells on the exchange (IE credits), then buy pretty much anything you want. Or by turning it into dil, which can be used to buy everything else, including upgrind.
In the end, there is absolutely nothing besides events stuff that can't be acquired with a credit card. Credits, gear, upgrades, ships, you name it. And some of this stuff is a real pain to have ingame, while it takes about 2 clicks if you have a credit card.
In the end, you can have pretty much everything without spending money. But it will take some serious dedication, and grind for many of those. Up to turning the game into another job for a while.
Meanwhile, you can have it easy, pull the card, and have it right now right there without breaking a sweat.
So yeah, it's not p2win, it's pay to have the game so much funnier and all the goodies I want to.
if it's not pay to win/pay to advance then don't exchange dilithium for zen, don't buy fleet modules off the exchange nor keys.
stick with your last free ship and run all the content with that.
you can forget about PvPing, you can forget about elite content...but that's ok right? because it's not pay to win.
freaking TRIBBLE. someone pays so you can have the shinies. you pay them in dilithium and grind to get those shinies.
if no one put zen on the exchange, put keys and such up for sale like fleet modules...no one is going ANYWHERE unless they spend their own cash.
make up all the BS rationalizations you want, that IS pay to win. oh...and it doesn't fraking MATTER if you think PvP is dead...it's still part of the game unless they remove it completely it still counts.
Dr. Patricia Tanis ~ "Bacon is for sycophants and products of incest."
Donate Brains, zombies in Washington DC are starving.
make up all the BS rationalizations you want, that IS pay to win. oh...and it doesn't fraking MATTER if you think PvP is dead...it's still part of the game unless they remove it completely it still counts.
To go back several pages, it all depends on your definition of "win". How can you talk about P2W without defining that? I have (with some regret) given up on PVP, but therefore don't "need" to pay/grind for those top-level ships and gear. I enjoy the PVE team events and scenarios. How is this "not winning"?
Anyway, you can get a decent T6 ship (Breen Carrier, Kobali cruiser) outfitted with Mk XIV gold gear from the rep system, and a full set of starship traits (from said ships + specialisation) IF you are willing to grind-game enough.
on one side, it's nice to be able to shortcut ahead
but on the other side, ... there's no real ingame way to get ahead or build ec -- that's a real problem, f2p games need a population of aspirants, people who don't pay but someday might if they decide they like the game ... right now, it's fairly tough for a newer player to get ahead without paying, especially making ec
sure, people can enjoy the game (the game is enjoyable), make a million here or there, but when decent traits and weapons and ships are 10m, 30m, and 100m ... well, there's just no way people can get those without paying some
While this game if F2P, it is grindy. Not as bad as some games. I think the P2W module is not entirely true, but understand why people say that. I think the lower statement best describes this game.
F2P, Grind to Win, and Pay to Win now.
While there is very little in this game you have to spend money on, because you can grind the zen. It just makes it easier and faster for those that can afford it to do right now.
sure, people can enjoy the game (the game is enjoyable), make a million here or there, but when decent traits and weapons and ships are 10m, 30m, and 100m ... well, there's just no way people can get those without paying some
Dil / Zen aside, there are *plenty* of ways to get decent EC. I am no monster but I've got over 300M EC in the bank even after buying a Temporal Science Vessel, Shuttle and Uniform last month. None of those EC came from selling Zen-bought items.
Well, I will admit, I do buy 10-20 us dollars of zen a month, paying my subscription by buying new toys.
But check out these concept builds, made for NO zen, and very little dill (I refuse to buy dill, as most of it on the market is from exploiters I refuse to support).
Solnae DSD (free if you were around then) with polaron +crit H tac consoles, the dyston weaps & armor sets, protonic polarons in empty weap spaces, embassy -threat sci consoles (either partgen or flowcaps). Not the greatest build in the world, but fun to fly and if you have upgraded it to Mk14 vr across the board, she's functional in elites assuming you flew her while you were doing the upgrades (tricky ship to fly well, takes a sklled captain.)
Breen carrier. (free, winter event), embassy sci consoles (flowcaps) breen console set (from the other FREE breen ships) dominion polaron weapons (just cause they fit the theme) breen space set (with jem-hadar deflector), did buy a plamonic off the exchange (sold a couple stacks of R&D junk from rolling qeues) and then elite pleash breks. - the drain is OP on NPC's and if a pvp person forgets to respect the build, he'll die instead of you (slaughters the FBP meta ships, due to extra low personal DPS)
So, oddly enough, even though I have nearly every rom ship available, and a decent number of fed Zen store ships, 2 of the builds that I fly often (and perform well with) have ZERO zen invested in them, (and yes I CAN say that even with the dill costs - remember, I refuse to buy dill on the exchange for personal reasons)
In short it depends on how you want to go about it. If you want everything right away then yes it is. If your willing to wait and don't mind the grind, everything is doable without spending a penny or dime in game. Aside from a monthly recurring subscription (which was cancelled last year) I've not had to drop any more real money into the game.
So it all comes down to the question are you the impatient sort that has to have everything right now, or can you wait for it and grind for it?
if it's not pay to win/pay to advance then don't exchange dilithium for zen, don't buy fleet modules off the exchange nor keys.
stick with your last free ship and run all the content with that.
you can forget about PvPing, you can forget about elite content...but that's ok right? because it's not pay to win.
freaking TRIBBLE. someone pays so you can have the shinies. you pay them in dilithium and grind to get those shinies.
if no one put zen on the exchange, put keys and such up for sale like fleet modules...no one is going ANYWHERE unless they spend their own cash.
make up all the BS rationalizations you want, that IS pay to win. oh...and it doesn't fraking MATTER if you think PvP is dead...it's still part of the game unless they remove it completely it still counts.
Um, no one needs buy anything, just to play the game and, win!
Can be done easily on normal and, advanced, while elite may be a lot tougher, I am sure it can be done also.
PVP, doesn't require you to pay for anything to play either and, if you can win there without paying, than those who do pay have won nothing.
Again, no one needs buy that stuff just to play and, I myself don't even touch the vast majority of that stuff, as it isn't needed.
Unless your paying can guarantee winning everything, than it is not truly a pay to win game!
Like if i throw enough Money at it can i buy all the best stuff riht out of the Exchange. Or are there still items stuff that have to be grind that are bind on pickup or somthing similar?
Both.
Crafted weapons are generally the best in slot due to the ability to get the exact mods you want for min/maxing. It's very difficult/luck-based to get those exact mods, so it's fairly rare/expensive.
Set Gear is something you have to obtain via the Reputations and is not something you can just purchase upfront.
With that said, the Dilithium Exchange means there are no hard paywalls in the game. If you grind enough you can get anything except the Steam Starter Pack, Collector's Edition/Lifetime Subscription items without paying a single cent out of your own pocket.
Furthermore, you can do 95% of the content in the game just using your freebie ship and gear you come across. You won't have as large of a margin for error, but it's completely doable. The only things you really have to min/max for are Elite Space Queues and, i guess, PvP(as broken as that is).
Like if i throw enough Money at it can i buy all the best stuff riht out of the Exchange. Or are there still items stuff that have to be grind that are bind on pickup or somthing similar?
OP to answer your threads question it is 100% free to play you dont have to buy zen or sub you want a ship? grind the dilithium and trade it for zen and buy your ship.
You want gear? same as before dil to zen
you only spend what you want to spend and if you choose not to spend there are ways to get the zen for the items you want and in some cases you can find some of those items on the exchange.
Just not C-store ships but i prefer lockbox ships to c-store any day of the week my fed flys both a JHDC and Monbosh with plans later to get a vaadwaur.
but i digress as i was saying this is a free to play game you dont need to spend a dime to play it or gain items within it.
Um, no one needs buy anything, just to play the game and, win!
Can be done easily on normal and, advanced, while elite may be a lot tougher, I am sure it can be done also.
PVP, doesn't require you to pay for anything to play either and, if you can win there without paying, than those who do pay have won nothing.
Again, no one needs buy that stuff just to play and, I myself don't even touch the vast majority of that stuff, as it isn't needed.
Unless your paying can guarantee winning everything, than it is not truly a pay to win game!
seems you don't know how to read. lets see you get a t5, t5u, t6 or fleet ship with out buying off the exchange ec or dilithium k?
cause hey, that zen, those ships and those modules were ALL bought with zen...cash. you're making the erroneous assumption that if YOU don't have to pay cash directly it's not pay to win/advance. but you DO pay, you pay the PLAYERS WHO PAID. without them you or anyone else would have NO WAY TO ADVANCE. no cash consoles, no c store sips, no fleet modules, no lockbox ships, no t5u upgrades...nada.
and 'thinking' an elite can be done with the free t4's isn't doing them...you can think anything you want. doesn't make it real. then there's PvP...gl with that in a t4.
simple fact...if players weren't injecting zen, keys, upgrades and fleet modules into the game for sale no one would get anywhere without spending their own cash. IF those players ever stopped...f2p portion of the game would grind to a halt. f2p players are totally reliant on other players spending money, putting up that zen and those cash items.
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Donate Brains, zombies in Washington DC are starving.
P2W is a fantasy created by all the angry players who get mad when the stuff they want isn't given to them. Yes, paying into the game will make life easier, but there is still a lot in this game you have to earn (Rank, Specializatio, Event Gear, etc.).
Aye. Seems to be a general misconception as to what P2W (Pay to Win) really is.
First question would be: how do you define "win"? Complete all the episodes? Reach max level? Earn all possible specialization points? Own everything there is to own? Place first in PvE or PvP?
Second question would be: can you get there without paying any real money? Anyone can do any of the above, whether they're paying anything or not. As far as combat (PvE or PvP), no one is "unbeatable".
Also, if you look at the various "veterans rewards" for those that do pay (whether monthly or lifetime sub), there's nothing listed that gives any kind of combat advantage to make someone "unbeatable" without also having to pay.
So... no; not even close to being P2W.
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Comments
no nothing is pay to win only but buying zenn and spending it half wise yes half wise is out of control $10 zenn perchase rounds out to about 100 hours of gameplay on 12 toons that's madness now if you spent it perfectly $100 bucks could get your new accounts first toon to endgame in a month when delta rising has intentionally destroyed the chance to get first toon to endgame under 200 hours like a year ago now its like 500 hours for free to play to get to end game on first toon and that's assuming the new player is an experienced mmorpg pro
There are no advantages that can't be reached by normal gameplay in STO. That is the one and only factor that determines if a game is pay-to-win or not. It's the one and only thing the pay-to-win complaint was phrased and created for.
Someone else purchasing something for real money is utterly irrelevant.
If a game is pay to win, then you would have to pay in order to win.
You can get everything in STO without ever having to pay.
Therefore, by contradiction, STO is not pay to win.
Quod erat demonstrandum.
Your definition the phrase is utterly meaningless for any and every discussion relating to MMOs, which is why it's not only completely and utterly wrong, it's entirely nonsensical. There is no context in which your definition is useful or relevant, failing at being a descriptor to be disingenuously used as an epithet.
Love how you deliberately disobeyed the mod requesting we cease discussion on what "free to play" means directly after the mod request five days after said request, thereby making it obviously a deliberate and premeditated act of disobedience. Trying to get the last word and the thread closed, eh?
Time matters. If you have to wait for grind, then you can't win now. You are the loser now. If you want to win now, you must pay now to buy the gear now. That is also pay to win. What you are talking about is wait-to-win, which is not at all the same thing as pay-to-win.
Your definition of "p2w" is as meaningless as anyones else, if we cant all somewhat agree on it.
It also has to represent how we use the term today not how it originated. It makes no sense pointing to what a term org. meant if the actual usage did change.
If you did read this thread you already noticed that many players have widely different opinions on what the term "p2w" means in the STO context. Now broaden your horizon and include all MMO's and you get even more opinions.
The term is so ill defined that its actually counter productive trying to define what it "means", since we cant even agree on a game per game basis what "win" means, since most MMO's have no clear defined "win" condition/scenario like a chess game.
What we can and should actually discuss is how a certain f2p business model/shop changes and interacts with its player base and community. So while "gold ammo" seems to-be not that of a big deal in WoT, i wonder how a similar business model would affect the counterstrike or LoL community?
I also wonder how ESO/WoW players would react if you transfer the Zen ship mastery trait + lockbox concept to those games?
If Bill Gates were to play STO, buy out PWE/Cryptic and got rid of the cash shop and subscriptions so that everything is freely available, by any reasonable, useful definition the game would not be "pay to win" because none of us would have to pay a single cent to get everything.
Yet by the worthless definition I have been deriding, it would still be "pay to win" because Bill Gates is paying to keep the game going and getting us access to everything, and if somebody is paying, it's "pay to win". Ridiculous.
The entire point, the spirit, origin and primary use of the complaint, is if a player has to fork out real money to "win". If you don't, then it's not.
Then we get the stupid definitions where spending time is equal to spending money. By that definition every single game with a leveling system is "pay to win" because you have to spend time leveling up and getting new gear. A nonsensical and useless definition that fails to convey anything of worth.
Regardless about how much money you use, the timegates and other grinding aspects will still stand in your way. You have to grind and spend wisely.
You need to pick and choose what to buy and grind.
I believe we have reached the end of the useful lifespan of this thread. We can dicker about this for another 100 pages and never reach a consensus.
The game is marketed as "Free to Play", which it is. 100%. Doesn't mean you can't spend money on the game, obviously, but there's no pay barrier to entry.
Is there a paywall that caps player advancement and/or performance? Depends on how you want to define advancement, performance, and paywall. We could be pedantic about it right down to defining pay and wall.
But that doesn't really help anybody come to a simple understanding.
If this thread has illustrated anything, it's that there's no simple answer to this very loaded question if we're not all following the same assumptions. And we're not.
I'm not going to close the thread... yet.
I am going to suggest that if you post another reply to this thread you might want to use your best closing arguments and rest your case.
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Go ahead and keep grinding, bro. Especially Dilithium.
There were plenty of people around these boards saying there needs to be more Dilithium Sinks to reign in the ever soaring exchange rate of Dil. Well, there are more Dil sinks than ever before and the Dil exchange rate keeps climbing higher and higher and higher and higher and higher.
FYI, about 2 years ago the Dil exchange was about 86. What's it at now?
With all the things that cost Dilithium, buying Zen and exchanging it for Dil has been the biggest reward in getting Dil (not saying it's the best... big difference). Dil to use for getting better gear from various resources as well as upgrading them.
On the flip side if you want to grind Dil to truly stay playing "Free," you got your work cut out for you. In between all the Dil sinks, the exchange rate to use Dil to get Zen has climbed higher and higher and higher. Like I said, we are far from the days of 80-something exchange rate.
U can't buy levels. U can't buy rep. U have to grind.
But U CAN buy Lockbox/Lobi/C-Store/Promo ships.
But U CAN buy those same ships with fancy traits.
But U CAN buy fancy consoles.
But U CAN buy keys to sell.
But U CAN buy Promotion Items (R&D boxes, for instance) to sell.
And I'm sure I'm missing tons more. You can actually grind to get all that "For Free" but the ever soaring Dil Exchange Rate has made it more and more difficult and time consuming to do so.
86:1 Dil:Zen 2 years ago? 2 years ago would be March 2013. I can't verify that, but I can verify that it was exactly 89:1 on February 1, 2013.
That 6.5 months after the Fleet Starbase (July 12, 2012), and 2.5 months after the new Reputation System and Fleet Embassy.
Pretty much during a massive surge in Dilithium demand. Considerably more "sinks" than right now.
Back then we were in the middle of building Fleet holdings, grinding Fleet Credits, getting Fleet ships, while also getting new Romulan Reputation gear (RomPlas loadouts, anyone?) Now the Fleet Ships are only T5.5, Fleet holdings are maxed out for the major Fleets (who are the ones likely to grab the Dilithium for it anyway), Reputation weapons only go up to Mk XII, and the Upgrades aren't actually a major Dilithium sink because only a few things are really worth grinding upgrades for (the rest are kind of "meh, when you get around to it" in terms of returns).
Dilithium sinks are not at an all time high - the time period you pointed out is actually when Dilithium was most in demand, accurately reflected in the exchange rate.
The reason the rates are so high right now is the massive influx of Dilithium onto the market, and we don't have a fleet holding or equivelent sink to act as a counter balance.
For a long time Starbases and other Fleet Holdings were acting as a bit of a counterbalance, but as more and more fleets hit T5, the less demand for Dilithium.
We haven't had a new holding since... the Solanae Sphere?
Everything you write is true, yet it does not make the game P2W. PVP aside (because it is an obvious mess), pretty much nothing of the once so valuable things have any value anymore. While I still use plasmonic leech on all my ships, I'd say it isn't essential to play the game or win in PVE, neither are certain doffs.
You can get top tier ships for free, the best gear ingame costs dilithium (not even that much) and not ZEN. (even easier to get these days)
MK XII very rare gear literally pops out of boxes that are a byproduct of the reputation grind.
Even Lobi is free at certain times.
All this can make your ship "competitive" if you are willing to invest the time and I haven't even mentioned the dilithium exchange.
Sure all of this takes time, but time shouldn't be an issue while playing a computer game (and actually 1h a day is already plenty to not miss out on anything)
Anything worth getting in this game is not behind a "wallet gate" but rather a "time gate"...you still need to play to win. Your wallet can't take you to the top in this game. In SWTOR you either pay or you are stuck at the bottom = P2W.
Ahh, good that you want to bring up Fleet Starbases and Holdings! It is true what you say about the demand of Dilithium when Fleets were still building up compared to now where there's more maxed out. That's fine if you're in a fleet now that is maxed out. That isn't fine when you're in a fleet that isn't. Personally, it makes zero sense to join a fleet that isn't maxed out, esp if you're a Fed. But in reality, new Fleets are forming all the time still (just sit around ESD/First City, the Academy), and there's plenty of enough Fleets out there *STILL* toiling towards T5/Max. For members of the game that are still building their Fleet Holdings up, that old Dil Sink is *STILL* an expensive cost when you compound it with the costs of things these days.
Regarding the old school Dil Exchange Rates: It didn't stay in the 80s, or under 100 long. It steadily climbed up and up and up despite the presence of the Starbases that everyone was working on.
Also, regarding Upgrades, plenty of enough equipment groups have very desirable items that upgrade to strong levels. You know guys are competitive out there in getting their good equipment, esp Weapons, where the difference between XII and XIV is astronomical. Tack the costs still out there.
Side note: A friendly reminder that maybe a month or so ago, Cryptic raised the Technology costs (i.e. more Dil costs) for upgrading some Fleet gear now, which used to be cheap? That was ninja'd in.
The best ships are from the Cstore (scimitard comes to mind) or the various gamblebox ingame. Or many awesome console/trait. Sure, you can buy the box ship through ingame money, which is better than gamble, but it leads to my second point.
Using zen will makes your life incredibly easier. Either by turning it to something to sells on the exchange (IE credits), then buy pretty much anything you want. Or by turning it into dil, which can be used to buy everything else, including upgrind.
In the end, there is absolutely nothing besides events stuff that can't be acquired with a credit card. Credits, gear, upgrades, ships, you name it. And some of this stuff is a real pain to have ingame, while it takes about 2 clicks if you have a credit card.
In the end, you can have pretty much everything without spending money. But it will take some serious dedication, and grind for many of those. Up to turning the game into another job for a while.
Meanwhile, you can have it easy, pull the card, and have it right now right there without breaking a sweat.
So yeah, it's not p2win, it's pay to have the game so much funnier and all the goodies I want to.
if it's not pay to win/pay to advance then don't exchange dilithium for zen, don't buy fleet modules off the exchange nor keys.
stick with your last free ship and run all the content with that.
you can forget about PvPing, you can forget about elite content...but that's ok right? because it's not pay to win.
freaking TRIBBLE. someone pays so you can have the shinies. you pay them in dilithium and grind to get those shinies.
if no one put zen on the exchange, put keys and such up for sale like fleet modules...no one is going ANYWHERE unless they spend their own cash.
make up all the BS rationalizations you want, that IS pay to win. oh...and it doesn't fraking MATTER if you think PvP is dead...it's still part of the game unless they remove it completely it still counts.
Donate Brains, zombies in Washington DC are starving.
To go back several pages, it all depends on your definition of "win". How can you talk about P2W without defining that? I have (with some regret) given up on PVP, but therefore don't "need" to pay/grind for those top-level ships and gear. I enjoy the PVE team events and scenarios. How is this "not winning"?
Anyway, you can get a decent T6 ship (Breen Carrier, Kobali cruiser) outfitted with Mk XIV gold gear from the rep system, and a full set of starship traits (from said ships + specialisation) IF you are willing to grind-game enough.
on one side, it's nice to be able to shortcut ahead
but on the other side, ... there's no real ingame way to get ahead or build ec -- that's a real problem, f2p games need a population of aspirants, people who don't pay but someday might if they decide they like the game ... right now, it's fairly tough for a newer player to get ahead without paying, especially making ec
sure, people can enjoy the game (the game is enjoyable), make a million here or there, but when decent traits and weapons and ships are 10m, 30m, and 100m ... well, there's just no way people can get those without paying some
F2P, Grind to Win, and Pay to Win now.
While there is very little in this game you have to spend money on, because you can grind the zen. It just makes it easier and faster for those that can afford it to do right now.
Dil / Zen aside, there are *plenty* of ways to get decent EC. I am no monster but I've got over 300M EC in the bank even after buying a Temporal Science Vessel, Shuttle and Uniform last month. None of those EC came from selling Zen-bought items.
Well, I will admit, I do buy 10-20 us dollars of zen a month, paying my subscription by buying new toys.
But check out these concept builds, made for NO zen, and very little dill (I refuse to buy dill, as most of it on the market is from exploiters I refuse to support).
Solnae DSD (free if you were around then) with polaron +crit H tac consoles, the dyston weaps & armor sets, protonic polarons in empty weap spaces, embassy -threat sci consoles (either partgen or flowcaps). Not the greatest build in the world, but fun to fly and if you have upgraded it to Mk14 vr across the board, she's functional in elites assuming you flew her while you were doing the upgrades (tricky ship to fly well, takes a sklled captain.)
Breen carrier. (free, winter event), embassy sci consoles (flowcaps) breen console set (from the other FREE breen ships) dominion polaron weapons (just cause they fit the theme) breen space set (with jem-hadar deflector), did buy a plamonic off the exchange (sold a couple stacks of R&D junk from rolling qeues) and then elite pleash breks. - the drain is OP on NPC's and if a pvp person forgets to respect the build, he'll die instead of you (slaughters the FBP meta ships, due to extra low personal DPS)
So, oddly enough, even though I have nearly every rom ship available, and a decent number of fed Zen store ships, 2 of the builds that I fly often (and perform well with) have ZERO zen invested in them, (and yes I CAN say that even with the dill costs - remember, I refuse to buy dill on the exchange for personal reasons)
In short it depends on how you want to go about it. If you want everything right away then yes it is. If your willing to wait and don't mind the grind, everything is doable without spending a penny or dime in game. Aside from a monthly recurring subscription (which was cancelled last year) I've not had to drop any more real money into the game.
So it all comes down to the question are you the impatient sort that has to have everything right now, or can you wait for it and grind for it?
the fact that you have to ask what percentage it is, already should tell you the answer.
Yes, it is, and as some have said, PvP is dead, PvE is easy because of the P2W ships.
Let's face it, the Chinese overlords have won.
Um, no one needs buy anything, just to play the game and, win!
Can be done easily on normal and, advanced, while elite may be a lot tougher, I am sure it can be done also.
PVP, doesn't require you to pay for anything to play either and, if you can win there without paying, than those who do pay have won nothing.
Again, no one needs buy that stuff just to play and, I myself don't even touch the vast majority of that stuff, as it isn't needed.
Unless your paying can guarantee winning everything, than it is not truly a pay to win game!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Both.
Crafted weapons are generally the best in slot due to the ability to get the exact mods you want for min/maxing. It's very difficult/luck-based to get those exact mods, so it's fairly rare/expensive.
Set Gear is something you have to obtain via the Reputations and is not something you can just purchase upfront.
With that said, the Dilithium Exchange means there are no hard paywalls in the game. If you grind enough you can get anything except the Steam Starter Pack, Collector's Edition/Lifetime Subscription items without paying a single cent out of your own pocket.
Furthermore, you can do 95% of the content in the game just using your freebie ship and gear you come across. You won't have as large of a margin for error, but it's completely doable. The only things you really have to min/max for are Elite Space Queues and, i guess, PvP(as broken as that is).
OP to answer your threads question it is 100% free to play you dont have to buy zen or sub you want a ship? grind the dilithium and trade it for zen and buy your ship.
You want gear? same as before dil to zen
you only spend what you want to spend and if you choose not to spend there are ways to get the zen for the items you want and in some cases you can find some of those items on the exchange.
Just not C-store ships but i prefer lockbox ships to c-store any day of the week my fed flys both a JHDC and Monbosh with plans later to get a vaadwaur.
but i digress as i was saying this is a free to play game you dont need to spend a dime to play it or gain items within it.
seems you don't know how to read. lets see you get a t5, t5u, t6 or fleet ship with out buying off the exchange ec or dilithium k?
cause hey, that zen, those ships and those modules were ALL bought with zen...cash. you're making the erroneous assumption that if YOU don't have to pay cash directly it's not pay to win/advance. but you DO pay, you pay the PLAYERS WHO PAID. without them you or anyone else would have NO WAY TO ADVANCE. no cash consoles, no c store sips, no fleet modules, no lockbox ships, no t5u upgrades...nada.
and 'thinking' an elite can be done with the free t4's isn't doing them...you can think anything you want. doesn't make it real. then there's PvP...gl with that in a t4.
simple fact...if players weren't injecting zen, keys, upgrades and fleet modules into the game for sale no one would get anywhere without spending their own cash. IF those players ever stopped...f2p portion of the game would grind to a halt. f2p players are totally reliant on other players spending money, putting up that zen and those cash items.
Donate Brains, zombies in Washington DC are starving.
Aye. Seems to be a general misconception as to what P2W (Pay to Win) really is.
First question would be: how do you define "win"? Complete all the episodes? Reach max level? Earn all possible specialization points? Own everything there is to own? Place first in PvE or PvP?
Second question would be: can you get there without paying any real money? Anyone can do any of the above, whether they're paying anything or not. As far as combat (PvE or PvP), no one is "unbeatable".
Also, if you look at the various "veterans rewards" for those that do pay (whether monthly or lifetime sub), there's nothing listed that gives any kind of combat advantage to make someone "unbeatable" without also having to pay.
So... no; not even close to being P2W.
OS X El Capitan 10.11.2
... where a simple "no" would have sufficed ...