Only thing i have to say on this matter is, it is FTP. .... But..
It plays on your patience, (or impatience should i say) when your grinding for the various things endlessly.
FTP's on this game usually have multiple characters for farming potential, where as "payers" tend to have 2 characters with everything on them. They are mostly the 100k DPS'ers etc.
Im a Lifer that has multiple characters myself though, and enjoy variation and 1 specific ship per toon, rather than every ship on the game stuffed on 1 character.
Still stick the odd £5 on here and there when i can't take the dill grind any more, but nowhere near what i used to.
Rep gear is normally the best, and you can't buy that on the exchange. I love my MACO phaser battle rifle, and Gravimetric Photon Torpedo Launcher.
Altho it wouldn't hurt if the MACO rifle wasn't so friggin huge. My character isn't small, but she's not tall either.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Attempting to redefine the phrase "pay to win" in order to associate the negative connotations to STO is tiresome and pathetic.
Actually the ability to directly buy power via cash is what differentiates many f2p business models. Its one of the most fundamental decisions a company has to make on there f2p business model. Thats because depending on the competitiveness of the game it may create a huge animosity within the community.
So while the "to win" is subjective and blurry, it actually helps to acknowledge the fact that STO sells power for money as part of its business model and that other games do not or at least in much smaller amounts.
This distinction seems important, since from my personal experience many of my friends would never touch a f2p game that sells power for cash, even if just minor. They seem pretty clear on this, so i guess its important to some players. From what they told me they hate the idea in general and find the concept power for cash repulsive in games they wish to play. Even if i tried to explain that niche games often have no other choice to cash in on "whales" to keep the game afloat, they still wont accept this business model.
The "Best" ships and traits need to be bought... you can grind for it by doing the dil to zen exchange... or buy it out right with cold hard cash. zen to buy keys for the lock boxes gambles or sell the keys for ec and buy off exchange outright.
if you want "epic" grade stuff... you need to buy off exchange the upgrades (requires dil to use) or buy fragments to make the dil free omega upgrades.
however even with the "best" gear available, if you suck.. you will still suck. need to learn the mechanics and strats for the encounters. it'll just give you more room for error.
In SWTOR, someone who is paying real money (subscriber) will be stronger than someone who is not paying. (This is based on the last time I looked at TOR, where being a subscriber was a literal, explicitly stated prerequisite for the better gear.)
In STO, someone who pays real money is not necessarily stronger than someone who does not, because the real money items can be attained without paying.
If you don't have to open your wallet to be as powerful as someone who has opened their wallet, then it's not pay to win.
In both games you can buy in game currency through long term time consuming grind to access better gear.
I was not aware that you can earn SWTOR Subscriber status in-game, and I'm not finding any means to do so with a few Google searches.
Again - my statements are based on the last time I looked at TOR and my friends' testimonies, where after losing Subscriber status all their equipment was unequipped and could not be re-equipped unless they regained Subscriber status. Considering they were max level and now naked, they did not continue to play SWTOR for free.
How is paying with your time not paying? Only a 12 year old is going to view the world in this way.
Don't be stupid.
It also takes time to read a novel. If reading a book I paid for means I've paid for it twice, once in money and once in time, then that definition of "paying in time" is so imprecise that it's meaningless and worthless.
Just like the definition of "play to win" that you're pushing.
Time spent doing something you enjoy is not time spent working. If playing a game is like working, then you're an idiot to keep playing, and need to learn how to avoid the Sunk Cost Fallacy.
some people here seem to twist the meaning of P2W so that it fits their own definition.
In STO you simply have the ability to significantly shortcut your way to a beefed up ship and captain. However, cutting short is not P2W.
Aslong as I can have identical gear as somebody who doesn't spend real money compared to somebody who spent real money to getting that same gear, it is not P2W. Simple as that.
Actually, gear is only a small part of the equasion, since specilisation points can't be bought.
So, no this game is not 100% P2W. It is at the very best pay to be lazy/impatient.
some people here seem to twist the meaning of P2W so that it fits their own definition.
In STO you simply have the ability to significantly shortcut your way to a beefed up ship and captain. However, cutting short is not P2W.
Aslong as I can have identical gear as somebody who doesn't spend real money compared to somebody who spent real money to getting that same gear, it is not P2W. Simple as that.
Actually, gear is only a small part of the equasion, since specilisation points can't be bought.
So, no this game is not 100% P2W. It is at the very best pay to be lazy/impatient.
Although, as the game progresses, it becomes, much, much harder for new players to catch up, without using real cash, up to a point where it indeed can be considered P2W, as the time needed to get competative is unrealistically high.
For example: most of the things on my own account have been "free". Full purple rosters of doffs, 5 Marion Dulmurs, tons of costumes, lockbox-ships, Zen-equipment, maxed out rep trees, EC that will probably last me until the game shuts down etc..., but I accomplished most of those feats while they were comperatively easy to do:
clickie-dailies, old Borg STFs, 400k EC lockbox keys, pre-mark nerf, infusing alien artifacts, console crafting, pre-loot-value-nerf, pre-doff-conversion-nerf, pre-doffing nerf, 75 Dil per Zen exchange rates, $5 Collectors Edition, buying lockbox consoles and doffs right on release date when they're still cheap as hell (Dulmur or Plasmonic leech for <500k EC) etc...
If I were to just get into the game today as a F2P, I'd probably have to spend 10 times the ingame time to get to the same "level", reaching the mentioned point, where it would simply become unrealistic to catch up without real cash.
Do you even know what a actual p2w game is? no i didnt think so.p2w normally means you will hit a brick wall at some point and wont be able to progress without paying real cash for upgrades normally but people seem to get that all mixed up now.Considering you can literally play and with sometime and patience earn it all in game.Thats easy if you enjoy the game if you dont enjoy it then well shouldnt really be posting here.
There are a few specific things that you do have to actually pay for... such as Lib Borg characters(not Boffs) those you need to buy LTS with and that costs real money. But such things are very few.
Again - my statements are based on the last time I looked at TOR and my friends' testimonies, where after losing Subscriber status all their equipment was unequipped and could not be re-equipped unless they regained Subscriber status. Considering they were max level and now naked, they did not continue to play SWTOR for free.
Don't know how long ago you unsubbed, or how long you and your friends had subbed for, but when I did after a year or so (I'm only really into the story stuff, endgame raids/pvp don't interest me enough to need it), my status changed to "preferred" and I was given enough cash shop coins to unlock most of the subscriber perks I didn't retain due to that status (and the rest were unlockable if I wanted to pay to do so, QOL stuff for the most part). Any of the highest-level gear I owned at the time was simply authorised for the owning character only as of then at no cost, I still use most of it as F2P.
When you've given EA enough money for SWTOR, you get to be a "Preferred" customer, which is a step above being a F2P scum. But if not, you don't get to keep the cool stuff.
a lot of people are still looking at this from 'if i don't have to pay it isn't pay to win'
guess what? if those other people who DO pay didn't...YOU'D still be stuck on that last free ship.
you'd have nothing from lockboxes
no fleet ships
no t6's
no t5u's
no t5's
no lockbox ships
no consoles from lockboxes or cash ships
no rare crafting doffs...just the whites for those top tier items
if there's no zen to exchange there's no way for a free player to get anything other than pay themselves.
if no ones selling keys, t5u upgrades, fleet modules...get the picture?
think about that instead of just blindly defending...rationalizing. it's obvious what this game is and how it was designed to be.
By this definition, no one would either and, if everyone had to P2P, than again no one would be P2W.
Because everyone would being paying just the same! Just to play the game!
well aware of what it means...problem being in this game if other players don't sell zen, don't sell or trade cash items, you cannot win as a free player. if they kept their ships to themselves, didn't use the exchange, yeah, where would you be?
why is that so difficult to grasp? everyone keeps trying to say just because you can BUY FROM OTHER PLAYERS it isn't pay to win...newsflash, they paid, and then you PAY THEM. with your grind, and time. if you DIDN'T pay those players who also PAID, you wouldn't get anything i listed in the last post.
ffs seems so freaking simple yet people still can't seem to grasp those basic facts. this is a pay to win/advance game.
By the same definition, you would also have no game to play and, neither would the people who have paid money and, still continue to do so!!!
Without anything really of interest for them to spend on, than they would eventually stop spending plain and simple.
So, our game economy is driven by money spender's desire for everything, while also allowing them to trade that RL money [zen], for another form of in game currency.
Or, simply post purchased items from lobi store and, a few C-store items and, lockbox goodies for a completely different form of in game currency [Energy Credits].
Why else do you think the game switched to F2P?
It sure wasn't because Cryptic, did it out of the kindness of their hearts, that's for damn sure!
A business needs $ so, they created a system to bring in $, just like so many other games have!
If people aren't intelligent enough to figure out what win means then rearrange it.
Does Cryptic sell power for real money that you can't get otherwise in game? Yes. Case closed.
It still doesn't define, what P2W truly means! Because nothing anyone pays for, guarantees a win! People paying $ to win pve? I see people fail at this miserably so, no their paying isn't winning. People paying $ to win pvp? I see people fail at this miserably as well so, again their paying isn't guaranteeing winning.
Attempting to redefine the phrase "pay to win" in order to associate the negative connotations to STO is tiresome and pathetic.
Darkjeff, please don't use horrid google definitions, as they are no better than this forum's argument, same 2 sided coin on what the definition truly means!
Not trying to be rude or nothing, it's just that it doesn't really help this conundrum any!
stop it with your obfuscatory nonsense.
its pretty obvious p2w isnt a guarenteed win as others are paying to the exact same advantage to victimise others with.
and there is always the posibility of one of these fat walleted sociopaths running into a pair of equally fat walleted sociopaths out to victimise a bigger fish.
what p2w does get you is paid for advantages over those who dont spend as much or buy the same power items.
utter nonsense again.
even with subscription or pay up front systems there are plenty of games that release paid items and/or expansions with exclusive overpowered advantages.
here is the truth; sto already failed to succeed under a subscription model.
So, than by your own definition, it isn't truly pay to win but, more of a pay for an advantage, for which it should actually be referred to and, not pay to win!!!
People's internet definition, of pay to win, when paying doesn't actually guarantee winning, can not actually be defined as pay to win but, in fact should be defined better as P4A. [pay for advantages]
A: No. You still have to play the game to get rewards such as reputation tiers and gear as well as specialization points.
Ex.1 You also cannot pay to guarentee any specific matches success (completing an ISA or winning a pvp cap and hold).
It is pay to quicker access, whether the speed in which f2p players gain rewards compared to paying players is irrelavent to the question.
in the more subjective territory, the things you can ONLY get by paying (LTS perks, veteran ship, red matter capacitor, liberated borg species, etc) do not guarentee any winning state in any reward generating event.
Ex2. You cannot pay for a tier 6 ship and pay for epic everything and guarentee The Battle of Korfez Elite completion with minimal input and strategy.
So conclusion STO is not 100% p2w
/thread
P.S. You can discuss the fairness of the f2p experience in comparison with the paying experience, but thatvis not what is asked by the title of the thread.
Funny thing about it is this. All those items you don't have to pay actual money for that you can get with EC are only there because somebody bought them with real money to sell for EC. No zen you are dead in the water at T6. :rolleyes:
But there will always be some event that you can grind a decent ship or item to fill the gap.
Funny thing about it is this. All those items you don't have to pay actual money for that you can get with EC are only there because somebody bought them with real money to sell for EC. No zen you are dead in the water at T6. :rolleyes:
But there will always be some event that you can grind a decent ship or item to fill the gap.
Or you know converted dilithium to zen.. and paid nothing
Darkjeff, please don't use horrid google definitions, as they are no better than this forum's argument, same 2 sided coin on what the definition truly means!
It's not a "Google definition". The point was to see the commonly accepted and used definition of a phrase, and a list of search engine results are perfect for determining that.
To absolutely nobody's surprise, it's not the meaningless one I've been arguing against but the one myself and others have repeatedly stated. A definition which is actually useful in discussing F2P cash shop differences because it doesn't apply to every video game in existence, ever.
The definition of "pay to win" that I use is whether a player has to pay cash to get items/skills that are otherwise unavailable to non-paying players and which give them an advantage in game play.
By my definition, STO is not pay to win. There is nothing available for cash that is unavailable to a non-paying player provided they are willing to earn and spend the dil for it. An example of what I consider a true pay to win game would be Mechwarrior online.
Or you know converted dilithium to zen.. and paid nothing
which in turn someone else had to buy with real cash.
If the paying players would stop buying and spending Zen (or trading it on the exchange), T-6 and T-5U ships would be out of reach for the F2P crowd.
Every top-tier ship out there was paid for with real cash.
By my definition, STO is not pay to win. There is nothing available for cash that is unavailable to a non-paying player provided they are willing to earn and spend the dil for it. An example of what I consider a true pay to win game would be Mechwarrior online.
Which is exactly what we have in STO. The system doesn't put Zen on the dilithum exchange or C-Store items into the auction house, it's other, paying players that do it. Without someone spending real cash, you wouldn't be able to fly a T5U or T6 ship, have access to cross-faction consoles, traits or any other kind of lockbox item.
Fill the world of STO solely with F2P players and the top-tier items and ships are out of reach.
which in turn someone else had to buy with real cash.
If the paying players would stop buying and spending Zen (or trading it on the exchange), T-6 and T-5U ships would be out of reach for the F2P crowd.
Every top-tier ship out there was paid for with real cash.
Which is exactly what we have in STO. The system doesn't put Zen on the dilithum exchange or C-Store items into the auction house, it's other, paying players that do it. Without someone spending real cash, you wouldn't be able to fly a T5U or T6 ship, have access to cross-faction consoles, traits or any other kind of lockbox item.
Fill the world of STO solely with F2P players and the top-tier items and ships are out of reach.
None of what you posted is relevant to if a game is "Pay To Win".
Do you need to pay to get the top-tier ship? No? Then it's not "pay to win" since you're "winning" without paying anything.
"Pay to win" is a phrase coined to complain about games where you're forced to pay in order to get the best stuff. Nobody honestly complains about other people paying so you can get the best stuff for free.
I feel I should point out that we're not exactly on-topic and the Academy forum really isn't meant for this kind of a debate. It's meant to provide helpful answers for people asking questions about gameplay.
It's not helpful to debate what P2W really means. You guys are focusing too much on the title of the thread.
The question was:
if i throw enough Money at it can i buy all the best stuff riht out of the Exchange. Or are there still items stuff that have to be grind that are bind on pickup or somthing similar?
Can we please keep the thread a bit closer to topic and intent?
I don't see a reply from the OP in here. If you're still reading, did the question get answered to your satisfaction?
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
None of what you posted is relevant to if a game is "Pay To Win".
Yes, it is. They're advantages that can't be reached by normal gameplay, without someone purchasing something for real money. It's become pay-to-win in it's truest sense. Sorry if that goes against your deep fanboi mindset.
Secondly, not only is it "pay to win" if something is exclusively paid for by real money, but also if you can so severely speed up the process of advancing in a game with cash, that it becomes impossible for the "true" free-2-play crowd to catch up. So even IF the Zen were placed on the dilithium exchange by Cryptic, the gap between two people, starting out at the same time, one of them with limitless cash, the other one spending nothing but his dilithium would be so large and so time consuming to close, that it's "Pay to Win" as well.
Yes, it is. They're advantages that can't be reached by normal gameplay, without someone purchasing something for real money. It's become pay-to-win in it's truest sense. Sorry if that goes against your deep fanboi mindset.
Secondly, not only is it "pay to win" if something is exclusively paid for by real money, but also if you can so severely speed up the process of advancing in a game with cash, that it becomes impossible for the "true" free-2-play crowd to catch up. So even IF the Zen were placed on the dilithium exchange by Cryptic, the gap between two people, starting out at the same time, one of them with limitless cash, the other one spending nothing but his dilithium would be so large and so time consuming to close, that it's "Pay to Win" as well.
So you're wrong, sorry.
And, if this person who pays out the whazoo gets everything and, yet they find themselves unable to win!
How is it pay to win again?
Remind me exactly, how they are guaranteed winning?
Yes, it is. They're advantages that can't be reached by normal gameplay, without someone purchasing something for real money. It's become pay-to-win in it's truest sense. Sorry if that goes against your deep fanboi mindset.
Secondly, not only is it "pay to win" if something is exclusively paid for by real money, but also if you can so severely speed up the process of advancing in a game with cash, that it becomes impossible for the "true" free-2-play crowd to catch up. So even IF the Zen were placed on the dilithium exchange by Cryptic, the gap between two people, starting out at the same time, one of them with limitless cash, the other one spending nothing but his dilithium would be so large and so time consuming to close, that it's "Pay to Win" as well.
So you're wrong, sorry.
How is it P2W when someone like my, a F2P player, is capable of grinding out one of the big ticket items like the Delta Pack, worth $150, via in game means alone?
Its not P2W. Its Pay for Convenience. Pay to Have Now. Not Pay to Win.
Sure a new shiny ship might give someone an edge, but they still have to outfit it with gear, get the right BOffs for it,, maybe upgrade said gear, and know how to use it.
I once out DPSed a Scimitar with a Regent in an old Infected Elite. And I'm pretty sure I saw that Scimitar use the Thaleron blast, which would indicate that person had all three variants which = $50, compared to my ground out via DL Exchange $25 Regent that was running Phased Tetryon.
Literally the ONLY things that can NOT be acquired via in game means are Veteran Perks via subscription and LTS. Everything else can be acquired without paying a cent of your own money and playing the Dilithium Exchange. All it takes is patience and a goal to work towards.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
Like if i throw enough Money at it can i buy all the best stuff riht out of the Exchange. Or are there still items stuff that have to be grind that are bind on pickup or somthing similar?
... 12 pages of futile debate.
U can't buy levels. U can't buy rep. U have to grind.
Comments
It plays on your patience, (or impatience should i say) when your grinding for the various things endlessly.
FTP's on this game usually have multiple characters for farming potential, where as "payers" tend to have 2 characters with everything on them. They are mostly the 100k DPS'ers etc.
Im a Lifer that has multiple characters myself though, and enjoy variation and 1 specific ship per toon, rather than every ship on the game stuffed on 1 character.
Still stick the odd £5 on here and there when i can't take the dill grind any more, but nowhere near what i used to.
Altho it wouldn't hurt if the MACO rifle wasn't so friggin huge. My character isn't small, but she's not tall either.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Actually the ability to directly buy power via cash is what differentiates many f2p business models. Its one of the most fundamental decisions a company has to make on there f2p business model. Thats because depending on the competitiveness of the game it may create a huge animosity within the community.
So while the "to win" is subjective and blurry, it actually helps to acknowledge the fact that STO sells power for money as part of its business model and that other games do not or at least in much smaller amounts.
This distinction seems important, since from my personal experience many of my friends would never touch a f2p game that sells power for cash, even if just minor. They seem pretty clear on this, so i guess its important to some players. From what they told me they hate the idea in general and find the concept power for cash repulsive in games they wish to play. Even if i tried to explain that niche games often have no other choice to cash in on "whales" to keep the game afloat, they still wont accept this business model.
overall STO in my first impression is not totaly p2w but its a huge shortcut to max performance, anything that players can reach with time.
if you want "epic" grade stuff... you need to buy off exchange the upgrades (requires dil to use) or buy fragments to make the dil free omega upgrades.
however even with the "best" gear available, if you suck.. you will still suck. need to learn the mechanics and strats for the encounters. it'll just give you more room for error.
In SWTOR, someone who is paying real money (subscriber) will be stronger than someone who is not paying. (This is based on the last time I looked at TOR, where being a subscriber was a literal, explicitly stated prerequisite for the better gear.)
In STO, someone who pays real money is not necessarily stronger than someone who does not, because the real money items can be attained without paying.
If you don't have to open your wallet to be as powerful as someone who has opened their wallet, then it's not pay to win.
I was not aware that you can earn SWTOR Subscriber status in-game, and I'm not finding any means to do so with a few Google searches.
Again - my statements are based on the last time I looked at TOR and my friends' testimonies, where after losing Subscriber status all their equipment was unequipped and could not be re-equipped unless they regained Subscriber status. Considering they were max level and now naked, they did not continue to play SWTOR for free.
Don't be stupid.
It also takes time to read a novel. If reading a book I paid for means I've paid for it twice, once in money and once in time, then that definition of "paying in time" is so imprecise that it's meaningless and worthless.
Just like the definition of "play to win" that you're pushing.
Time spent doing something you enjoy is not time spent working. If playing a game is like working, then you're an idiot to keep playing, and need to learn how to avoid the Sunk Cost Fallacy.
In STO you simply have the ability to significantly shortcut your way to a beefed up ship and captain. However, cutting short is not P2W.
Aslong as I can have identical gear as somebody who doesn't spend real money compared to somebody who spent real money to getting that same gear, it is not P2W. Simple as that.
Actually, gear is only a small part of the equasion, since specilisation points can't be bought.
So, no this game is not 100% P2W. It is at the very best pay to be lazy/impatient.
Although, as the game progresses, it becomes, much, much harder for new players to catch up, without using real cash, up to a point where it indeed can be considered P2W, as the time needed to get competative is unrealistically high.
For example: most of the things on my own account have been "free". Full purple rosters of doffs, 5 Marion Dulmurs, tons of costumes, lockbox-ships, Zen-equipment, maxed out rep trees, EC that will probably last me until the game shuts down etc..., but I accomplished most of those feats while they were comperatively easy to do:
clickie-dailies, old Borg STFs, 400k EC lockbox keys, pre-mark nerf, infusing alien artifacts, console crafting, pre-loot-value-nerf, pre-doff-conversion-nerf, pre-doffing nerf, 75 Dil per Zen exchange rates, $5 Collectors Edition, buying lockbox consoles and doffs right on release date when they're still cheap as hell (Dulmur or Plasmonic leech for <500k EC) etc...
If I were to just get into the game today as a F2P, I'd probably have to spend 10 times the ingame time to get to the same "level", reaching the mentioned point, where it would simply become unrealistic to catch up without real cash.
My character Tsin'xing
Don't know how long ago you unsubbed, or how long you and your friends had subbed for, but when I did after a year or so (I'm only really into the story stuff, endgame raids/pvp don't interest me enough to need it), my status changed to "preferred" and I was given enough cash shop coins to unlock most of the subscriber perks I didn't retain due to that status (and the rest were unlockable if I wanted to pay to do so, QOL stuff for the most part). Any of the highest-level gear I owned at the time was simply authorised for the owning character only as of then at no cost, I still use most of it as F2P.
By this definition, no one would either and, if everyone had to P2P, than again no one would be P2W.
Because everyone would being paying just the same! Just to play the game!
By the same definition, you would also have no game to play and, neither would the people who have paid money and, still continue to do so!!!
Without anything really of interest for them to spend on, than they would eventually stop spending plain and simple.
So, our game economy is driven by money spender's desire for everything, while also allowing them to trade that RL money [zen], for another form of in game currency.
Or, simply post purchased items from lobi store and, a few C-store items and, lockbox goodies for a completely different form of in game currency [Energy Credits].
Why else do you think the game switched to F2P?
It sure wasn't because Cryptic, did it out of the kindness of their hearts, that's for damn sure!
A business needs $ so, they created a system to bring in $, just like so many other games have!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
It still doesn't define, what P2W truly means! Because nothing anyone pays for, guarantees a win! People paying $ to win pve? I see people fail at this miserably so, no their paying isn't winning. People paying $ to win pvp? I see people fail at this miserably as well so, again their paying isn't guaranteeing winning.
Darkjeff, please don't use horrid google definitions, as they are no better than this forum's argument, same 2 sided coin on what the definition truly means!
Not trying to be rude or nothing, it's just that it doesn't really help this conundrum any!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
So, than by your own definition, it isn't truly pay to win but, more of a pay for an advantage, for which it should actually be referred to and, not pay to win!!!
People's internet definition, of pay to win, when paying doesn't actually guarantee winning, can not actually be defined as pay to win but, in fact should be defined better as P4A. [pay for advantages]
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Q: is this game 100% pay to win?
A: No. You still have to play the game to get rewards such as reputation tiers and gear as well as specialization points.
Ex.1 You also cannot pay to guarentee any specific matches success (completing an ISA or winning a pvp cap and hold).
It is pay to quicker access, whether the speed in which f2p players gain rewards compared to paying players is irrelavent to the question.
in the more subjective territory, the things you can ONLY get by paying (LTS perks, veteran ship, red matter capacitor, liberated borg species, etc) do not guarentee any winning state in any reward generating event.
Ex2. You cannot pay for a tier 6 ship and pay for epic everything and guarentee The Battle of Korfez Elite completion with minimal input and strategy.
So conclusion STO is not 100% p2w
/thread
P.S. You can discuss the fairness of the f2p experience in comparison with the paying experience, but thatvis not what is asked by the title of the thread.
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But there will always be some event that you can grind a decent ship or item to fill the gap.
Or you know converted dilithium to zen.. and paid nothing
It's not a "Google definition". The point was to see the commonly accepted and used definition of a phrase, and a list of search engine results are perfect for determining that.
To absolutely nobody's surprise, it's not the meaningless one I've been arguing against but the one myself and others have repeatedly stated. A definition which is actually useful in discussing F2P cash shop differences because it doesn't apply to every video game in existence, ever.
By my definition, STO is not pay to win. There is nothing available for cash that is unavailable to a non-paying player provided they are willing to earn and spend the dil for it. An example of what I consider a true pay to win game would be Mechwarrior online.
which in turn someone else had to buy with real cash.
If the paying players would stop buying and spending Zen (or trading it on the exchange), T-6 and T-5U ships would be out of reach for the F2P crowd.
Every top-tier ship out there was paid for with real cash.
Which is exactly what we have in STO. The system doesn't put Zen on the dilithum exchange or C-Store items into the auction house, it's other, paying players that do it. Without someone spending real cash, you wouldn't be able to fly a T5U or T6 ship, have access to cross-faction consoles, traits or any other kind of lockbox item.
Fill the world of STO solely with F2P players and the top-tier items and ships are out of reach.
None of what you posted is relevant to if a game is "Pay To Win".
Do you need to pay to get the top-tier ship? No? Then it's not "pay to win" since you're "winning" without paying anything.
"Pay to win" is a phrase coined to complain about games where you're forced to pay in order to get the best stuff. Nobody honestly complains about other people paying so you can get the best stuff for free.
I feel I should point out that we're not exactly on-topic and the Academy forum really isn't meant for this kind of a debate. It's meant to provide helpful answers for people asking questions about gameplay.
It's not helpful to debate what P2W really means. You guys are focusing too much on the title of the thread.
The question was:
Can we please keep the thread a bit closer to topic and intent?
I don't see a reply from the OP in here. If you're still reading, did the question get answered to your satisfaction?
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Yes, it is. They're advantages that can't be reached by normal gameplay, without someone purchasing something for real money. It's become pay-to-win in it's truest sense. Sorry if that goes against your deep fanboi mindset.
Secondly, not only is it "pay to win" if something is exclusively paid for by real money, but also if you can so severely speed up the process of advancing in a game with cash, that it becomes impossible for the "true" free-2-play crowd to catch up. So even IF the Zen were placed on the dilithium exchange by Cryptic, the gap between two people, starting out at the same time, one of them with limitless cash, the other one spending nothing but his dilithium would be so large and so time consuming to close, that it's "Pay to Win" as well.
So you're wrong, sorry.
And, if this person who pays out the whazoo gets everything and, yet they find themselves unable to win!
How is it pay to win again?
Remind me exactly, how they are guaranteed winning?
And, what is it exactly they are winning?
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
How is it P2W when someone like my, a F2P player, is capable of grinding out one of the big ticket items like the Delta Pack, worth $150, via in game means alone?
Its not P2W. Its Pay for Convenience. Pay to Have Now. Not Pay to Win.
Sure a new shiny ship might give someone an edge, but they still have to outfit it with gear, get the right BOffs for it,, maybe upgrade said gear, and know how to use it.
I once out DPSed a Scimitar with a Regent in an old Infected Elite. And I'm pretty sure I saw that Scimitar use the Thaleron blast, which would indicate that person had all three variants which = $50, compared to my ground out via DL Exchange $25 Regent that was running Phased Tetryon.
Literally the ONLY things that can NOT be acquired via in game means are Veteran Perks via subscription and LTS. Everything else can be acquired without paying a cent of your own money and playing the Dilithium Exchange. All it takes is patience and a goal to work towards.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
... 12 pages of futile debate.
U can't buy levels. U can't buy rep. U have to grind.