best Khan..

torgaddon101 · February 2015

with the JJverse..!

which Khan would have won?

Ricardo Montalban...

Benedict Cumberbatch...

different eras I know and actors etc, but with Ricardo I always remember him from 'Fantasy Island'

and Benedict as Sherlock.

I grew up with Tos and love the all the star trek shows, and the films... even Insurrection.

...

tomorrows post will be about something else..

organicmanfred · February 2015

Best Khan is a dead Khan.

Dead as Khan be.

nyxadrill · February 2015

Ricardo will always, and ever shall be, Kahn to me.

Benedict's was good... but no, Ricardo wins outright for me.

hawku001x · February 2015

Benedict Wong

but in Trek, good ole Montalban

philipclayberg · February 2015

reyan01 wrote: »

Shere Khan.

Even he wouldn't be a match for a real Khan. Like:

Kublai Khan and Genghis Khan

I forget which one died during the Mongols' invasion of Europe, but if they hadn't (forcing the Mongol forces to return to Central Asia to elect a new Khan; and then mysteriously never heading back to Europe), I think all of Europe would've fallen to the Mongols.

(Yes, I know this has nothing to do with ST or STO.)

sohtoh · February 2015

Chaka Khan

eldarion79 · February 2015

Cumberbatch because his Khan wasn't one dimensional

Montalban because Montalban was a great actor

lessley00 · February 2015

Ricardo will always be the one mostly for that little speech in TWOK about how far he would chase Kirk

Benaddicted Cumbercookie was awesome but he didnt break the ice like Ricardo. But STID inspired some possible shertrek in my mind hehe

worffan101 · February 2015

If Cumberbatch had had a better script and a director who didn't have his head up his own rear, he would've been the best. As-is, Montalban and his pecs win.

jonsills · February 2015

What are they competing at? If it's an eating contest, for instance, Montalban could chew the scenery with a gusto that Cumberbatch can only wish to emulate. (That's why he made such a good opponent for Shatner's Kirk in TWoK; it's a wonder there was enough of that set left to finish the movie after those two were through with it.)

worffan101 · February 2015

jonsills wrote: »

What are they competing at? If it's an eating contest, for instance, Montalban could chew the scenery with a gusto that Cumberbatch can only wish to emulate. (That's why he made such a good opponent for Shatner's Kirk in TWoK; it's a wonder there was enough of that set left to finish the movie after those two were through with it.)

Jonsills, there wasn't a piece of scenery in the entire galaxy that didn't have tooth marks on it after those two were done.

Now, what I want to see is a reboot of Into Darkness that (a) actually makes sense and (b) lets CumberKhan win. Or at least kill Kirk with no ******n reset button. But the plot has to make sense and Khan's position still has to be completely sympathetic. Because FU JJ.

rooster707 · February 2015

worffan101 wrote: »

Jonsills, there wasn't a piece of scenery in the entire galaxy that didn't have tooth marks on it after those two were done.

Now, what I want to see is a reboot of Into Darkness that (a) actually makes sense and (b) lets CumberKhan win. Or at least kill Kirk with no ******n reset button. But the plot has to make sense and Khan's position still has to be completely sympathetic. Because FU JJ.

Wait... you want them to reboot the reboot? Already?

worffan101 · February 2015

rooster707 wrote: »

Wait... you want them to reboot the reboot? Already?

I want to rewind time and do it right.

Like Voyager and Enterprise, it's a really good idea done badly. And that annoys me. A lot.

hawku001x · February 2015

rooster707 wrote: »

Wait... you want them to reboot the reboot? Already?

i'm ready for this.... i think it's time

jonsills · February 2015

Cumberbatch's Khan shouldn't have tried to kill Kirk; the entire idea should have struck him as a huge waste. Remember, after all, that this Khan is still the world-conqueror from the Eugenics Wars. He avenged himself upon Marcus for daring to threaten his people, but he should have seen Kirk as a potential convert - someone intelligent enough to reevaluate his own position, intelligent enough to be useful (and of course he also still regarded himself as morally and ethically correct in trying to bring peace and order at all costs, and would have regarded this version of Earth as desperately needing him).

Montalban's Khan had been driven insane by his forced fifteen-year exile in a place that suddenly became uninhabitable (and you know he'd convinced himself early on that Kirk knew this was going to happen and dumped him there on purpose). Before that, in "Space Seed", Khan felt himself forced to try to kill Kirk in order to win the cooperation of the crew, and was visibly angered at the waste; had even one person besides what's-her-face, the utterly forgettable historian, turned to his side, he would have happily spared Kirk. Cumberbatch's Khan was merely enraged that his people were being held hostage, and that Marcus had tried to get an underling to kill them all; in fact, he saw Kirk save his people.

So there's the rewrite needed - either come up with some plausible reason why Khan, a supremely intelligent man, reasonable within the framework of his own assumptions (like so many of us), would want Kirk and Spock dead, or rewrite it to where Khan escapes at the end, probably after trying and failing to convert Kirk to his cause. Oh, and give us better Treknobabble about that stupid volcano, if we can't just write it out altogether.

worffan101 · February 2015

jonsills wrote: »

Cumberbatch's Khan shouldn't have tried to kill Kirk; the entire idea should have struck him as a huge waste. Remember, after all, that this Khan is still the world-conqueror from the Eugenics Wars. He avenged himself upon Marcus for daring to threaten his people, but he should have seen Kirk as a potential convert - someone intelligent enough to reevaluate his own position, intelligent enough to be useful (and of course he also still regarded himself as morally and ethically correct in trying to bring peace and order at all costs, and would have regarded this version of Earth as desperately needing him).

Montalban's Khan had been driven insane by his forced fifteen-year exile in a place that suddenly became uninhabitable (and you know he'd convinced himself early on that Kirk knew this was going to happen and dumped him there on purpose). Before that, in "Space Seed", Khan felt himself forced to try to kill Kirk in order to win the cooperation of the crew, and was visibly angered at the waste; had even one person besides what's-her-face, the utterly forgettable historian, turned to his side, he would have happily spared Kirk. Cumberbatch's Khan was merely enraged that his people were being held hostage, and that Marcus had tried to get an underling to kill them all; in fact, he saw Kirk save his people.

So there's the rewrite needed - either come up with some plausible reason why Khan, a supremely intelligent man, reasonable within the framework of his own assumptions (like so many of us), would want Kirk and Spock dead, or rewrite it to where Khan escapes at the end, probably after trying and failing to convert Kirk to his cause. Oh, and give us better Treknobabble about that stupid volcano, if we can't just write it out altogether.

...

You have me convinced.

Want to collab on a fix fic at some point?

mhall85 · February 2015

No one can deny RM's presence in "Space Seed" and TWOK... and he'll still likely win out, in my book...

But, Khan was supposed to be from India/South Asia region... so, of course, hiring a Latino makes PERFECT sense. :P The whimsical ways of 60's-era TV, LOL...

From a historical perspective, Khan being/sounding British actually makes more sense, given the British imperial presence in India during the 20th century (see: Gandhi). So, points to BC for that. It might've helped BC's cause, too, had Team Bad Robot pulled the trigger on a post-credits scene in ST09. This might have given the audience more of a connection to the characters of Marcus and Khan... but, alas, Team Bad Robot chickened out.

Heh heh... "Bad Robot Chicken"... didn't mean that, LOL. :P

starkaos · February 2015

jonsills wrote: »

Cumberbatch's Khan shouldn't have tried to kill Kirk; the entire idea should have struck him as a huge waste. Remember, after all, that this Khan is still the world-conqueror from the Eugenics Wars. He avenged himself upon Marcus for daring to threaten his people, but he should have seen Kirk as a potential convert - someone intelligent enough to reevaluate his own position, intelligent enough to be useful (and of course he also still regarded himself as morally and ethically correct in trying to bring peace and order at all costs, and would have regarded this version of Earth as desperately needing him).

Montalban's Khan had been driven insane by his forced fifteen-year exile in a place that suddenly became uninhabitable (and you know he'd convinced himself early on that Kirk knew this was going to happen and dumped him there on purpose). Before that, in "Space Seed", Khan felt himself forced to try to kill Kirk in order to win the cooperation of the crew, and was visibly angered at the waste; had even one person besides what's-her-face, the utterly forgettable historian, turned to his side, he would have happily spared Kirk. Cumberbatch's Khan was merely enraged that his people were being held hostage, and that Marcus had tried to get an underling to kill them all; in fact, he saw Kirk save his people.

So there's the rewrite needed - either come up with some plausible reason why Khan, a supremely intelligent man, reasonable within the framework of his own assumptions (like so many of us), would want Kirk and Spock dead, or rewrite it to where Khan escapes at the end, probably after trying and failing to convert Kirk to his cause. Oh, and give us better Treknobabble about that stupid volcano, if we can't just write it out altogether.

Might want to read To Reign in Hell: The Rise and Fall of Khan Noonien Singh. It deals with Khan's life on Ceti Alpha V. The only problem I have with Kirk in this situation is that he doesn't take his role as Khan's Jailer seriously. A Jailer is supposed to keep an eye on their prisoners not dump them on some planet and forget about them.

iconians · February 2015

Benedict Cumberbatch was the better Khan. He seemed more genuine. Realistic. Down to earth (pun unintended).

Ricardo Montalban on the other hand looked like he belonged in a 1960's Batman episode given how over-the-top his villain performance was. To be fair, most cinema and television had campy, cartoony villains back in the day.

jorantomalak · February 2015

iconians wrote: »

Benedict Cumberbatch was the better Khan. He seemed more genuine. Realistic. Down to earth (pun unintended).

Ricardo Montalban on the other hand looked like he belonged in a 1960's Batman episode given how over-the-top his villain performance was. To be fair, most cinema and television had campy, cartoony villains back in the day.

Montlbans khan was the best due to the fact in TWoK you could feel the rage the insanity of a man with one goal in mind kill admiral james t kirk.

In short its what i would expect of a mad man with the ahab syndrom he blames kirk for everything when it was his fault in the first place.

And here is a quite from kahn and from moby D-ick to prove the point

Khan: He tasks me. He tasks me and I shall have him! I'll chase him 'round the moons of Nibia and 'round the Antares Maelstrom and 'round perdition's flames before I give him up!

Right there shows that khan has gone nuts his rage his demeanor everything he is or ever will be is about chasing his white whale in this case kirk.

Montlbans khan wasnt "Campy" it was a man who went insane and was fueled by rage and with only one thing on his mind even if it meant the sacrifice of the people he swore to protect and that was killing kirk.

so i say montlban nailed it he was the original khan from TOS and TWoK but beyond that he put the emotion behind the character .

Cumberbatch put no emotion into his version of khan it felt flat for me like he was a more commander data then commander data as to say an emotionless android.

Montlban really made it feel like he WAS kahn and hell bent to persue kirk no matter the cost

starkaos · February 2015

jorantomalak wrote: »

In short its what i would expect of a mad man with the ahab syndrom he blames kirk for everything when it was his fault in the first place.

Kirk suffers from the problem most protagonists have. Defeat the villain and don't give a second thought to the defeated villain until they return for revenge. If Kirk checked up on Khan every few years, then Khan wouldn't have come down with Ahab syndrome. Khan didn't blame Kirk for everything. He blamed Kirk for abandoning him and his followers to die on Ceti Alpha V. Khan's followers died because Kirk didn't bother to take time out of his busy schedule to make sure Khan was OK. One of Khan's followers used to be part of Kirk's crew so that should warrant Kirk to check up on Khan.

Chekov: You lie! On Ceti Alpha V, there was life! A fair chance"

Khan: THIS IS CETI ALPHA V!!! Ceti Alpha VI exploded six months after we were left here. The shock shifted the orbit of this planet and everything was laid waste. Admiral Kirk never bothered to check on our progress. It was only the fact of my genetically engineered intellect that allowed us to survive. On Earth... two hundred years ago, I was a prince... with power over millions."

Therefore, Kirk was responsible for Khan and Kirk just abandoned Khan and one of his crew members.

revandarklighter · February 2015

Even for me someone who despises the jar jar verse with passion that question isn't that easy.
Cumberbatch was great. (On the other hand, haven't seen a not great performance of him yet).
He was deffinitly a different take on that.

Ultimately my vote still goes to Montalban for a simple fact that someone in the forum made me aware of:
Cumberkhan is ultimately only a physical threat. He never does anything really smart. We do (at least I did) assume he's smart because we know the actor from Sherlock and somehow the brain connects "extremly intelligent person" with him. But on screen he does nothing to proof that.

Montalban DID actually show his supposed superior intellect AND was a physical threat. Also he's simply the original.

But I feel it is a common mistake to compare the wrath of khan - khan to into darkness khan.

In the wrath of khan khan was already driven insane, fueled by rage. In the series and into darkness we had a calm and calculating khan. Those 2 should be compared, while the wrath of khan was still the same character he was a changed man that acted and reacted completly different.

markhawkman · February 2015

The Cumberbatch version was the lead designer of the Vengeance. It's how he was able to take over the ship so easily. so that does add quite a bit of intelligence to the character.

revandarklighter · February 2015

markhawkman wrote: »

The Cumberbatch version was the lead designer of the Vengeance. It's how he was able to take over the ship so easily. so that does add quite a bit of intelligence to the character.

No. It's a movie. I mean it's proven that ocri and kurtzman can't write but still:
Show don't tell.
Saying "he designed the vengeance" isn't more then saying "he's smart. He has a superior intellect"

If you want your audience to believe a character is intelligent have him ACT that way ON SCREEN. He just hit people really fast and hard, that's something Jayne Cobb can do to.

And he only was thread because the protagonist crew acted even dumber then him.

rattler2 · February 2015

reyan01 wrote: »

That was one of CumberKhan's biggest setbacks - he didn't have the motivation that STII Khan had.

Can't really compare Reboot Khan to ST2 Khan. ST2 Khan was out for revenge against Kirk, while Reboot Khan hadn't even met Kirk yet. It would be better to compare Reboot Khan to Khan from the episode Space Seed, as that was also when Khan first met Kirk. Khan in ST2 had history with Kirk, so its not a good comparison anyways.

alexmakepeace · February 2015

I wasn't really impressed with Cumberpatch's performance. He way, way overacted... in a bad way. Then again, I didn't like his Smaug, either, so maybe I just don't like Cumberpatch.

markhawkman · February 2015

revandarklighter wrote: »

No. It's a movie. I mean it's proven that ocri and kurtzman can't write but still:
Show don't tell.
Saying "he designed the vengeance" isn't more then saying "he's smart. He has a superior intellect"

If you want your audience to believe a character is intelligent have him ACT that way ON SCREEN. He just hit people really fast and hard, that's something Jayne Cobb can do to.

And he only was thread because the protagonist crew acted even dumber then him.

Well, Cumberbatch showed how Khan knew the ship as well as Scottie knows the Enterprise.

What did Montalban do besides boast about how awesome he was?

steamwright · February 2015

markhawkman wrote: »

Well, Cumberbatch showed how Khan knew the ship as well as Scottie knows the Enterprise.

What did Montalban do besides boast about how awesome he was?

To be fair, Prime Khan was given everything on a silver platter, at first, by Kirk.

Alt-Khan sounds like he was put through the wringer by Marcus, repeatedly beaten with the "family" as threat. He's learned rage, but he's also learned to temper his ego of necessity, and is quite a bit more likely to demonstrate his superiority rather than over-inflate it. The two variation would likely develop very differently because of the difference in how they were treated at discovery.

artan42 · February 2015

Cumberbatch. He had motive, threat, charisma, an arc, justification, brains, acted like a super soldier, crushed a guy's head in his bear hands.

alexmakepeace · February 2015

artan42 wrote: »

...crushed a guy's head in his bear hands.

I don't think he was augmented quite that dramatically. Also, I'm fairly certain that ursine forelimbs are called paws.

jonsills · February 2015

alexmakepeace wrote: »

I don't think he was augmented quite that dramatically. Also, I'm fairly certain that ursine forelimbs are called paws.

Maybe he was one of Herr Doktor Vapnoodle's creations?

best Khan..

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