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The NEW Federation Flagship

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    angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Its a tradition. Starfleet's flagship was always named Enterprise.

    Where do you draw this conclusion from? Aside from the Enterprise-D no Enterprise was ever called the flagship. The Enterprise surely is a famed and prestigous name, ship and crew. It's stuff of legend, but aside from the D it was never stated the Enterprise was the flagship.

    Now it would make sense, don't get me wrong. But we don't know that. And every time when something big happened the admirals decided to not be on the Enterprise (probably because they needed to get killed to make it more dramatic :D).
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
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    revandarklighterrevandarklighter Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    angrytarg wrote: »
    Where do you draw this conclusion from? Aside from the Enterprise-D no Enterprise was ever called the flagship. The Enterprise surely is a famed and prestigous name, ship and crew. It's stuff of legend, but aside from the D it was never stated the Enterprise was the flagship.

    Now it would make sense, don't get me wrong. But we don't know that. And every time when something big happened the admirals decided to not be on the Enterprise (probably because they needed to get killed to make it more dramatic :D).

    The jar jar price was called flagship, too, but that doesn't mean anything for our universe.

    Otherwise the enterprise-flagship thing is a urban myth. I particularly doubt the ent-a was the flagship.
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    seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    reyan01 wrote: »
    Don't think that's true. Even if we overlook the fact that neither of Kirk's Enterprise's were EVER stated to be 'flagships', nor were any of the successors..


    The Enterprise D is on many occasions referred to as the Federation Flagship. Other then that, you're absolutely right. As far as I know, the 1701-D was the first Enterprise to be designated the Flagship of the Federation. To the best of my knowledge, there is no reference to any other ship before or after the 1701-D being referred to as the Flagship until the reference is made to the 1701-F in Star Trek Online.

    I always assumed there were other 'Flagships' before the 1701-D and probably between the D and the F, but that's just assumption. There is never any clear indication of what criteria is used to designate the Flagship of the Federation, but it is odd that they would not select a Vessel commanded by a Flag Officer (Admiral.)
    Insert witty signature line here.
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    scififan78scififan78 Member Posts: 1,383 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    I just went through the data base on Star Trek official website and only the D is described as the Federation flagship.
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    lingeringsoul888lingeringsoul888 Member Posts: 509 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    It's interesting to note that it's ususally the second ship that gets named the Enterprise. The first one of it's class is always the name of the class ship.
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    revandarklighterrevandarklighter Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    It's interesting to note that it's ususally the second ship that gets named the Enterprise. The first one of it's class is always the name of the class ship.

    The nx 01 was the first of her class.... She just wasn't named after it.

    We actually dont know if the original enterprise was the 2nd or the 20th constitution class ship. We know none about how many ambassadors were arround before the enterprise c, there was a really really big time gap between the excelsior and the ent b, so I doubt it was the second. The a was absolutely certainly not the second of her class.
    The ent D was build as "one of the first" but I'm nit sure if for example the Yamato wasn't finished first.
    We know nothing canonicaly on how many sovereigns were arround. Good chance that is actually the second.
    Given how fast the new enterprise was arround after the destruction of the last there is the theory that the enterprise E is actually the renamed uss Souvereign herself.

    But given that the enterprise is kind of a prestige ship they probably don't want to give that name to a buggy prototype.
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    angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    (...) but it is odd that they would not select a Vessel commanded by a Flag Officer (Admiral.)

    This is one of the many examples that while Starfleet des share some designations and ranks with traditional earth navies it is *not the same*. Starfleets habit of ship designations, ranks, order of command and operation procedure is that of a fictional exploratory service in the 23rd and 24th century. Wether this is due to the writers having limited knowledge of these military practices or they changed it on purpose doesn't matter - what we see on screen is how it works.

    This is not solely aimed at you, mind you. But I wish a lot of people n these forums alone would begin to understand that, especially military aficionados drawing comparisions to their own service time. That doesn't work.

    In regards to the actual topic of your post, a ship commanded by an Admiral was called simply the "Admiral's ship" if I remember correctly. Flagship was a term designated to *the* flagship of the UFP/Starfleet.
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
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    revandarklighterrevandarklighter Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    angrytarg wrote: »
    This is one of the many examples that while Starfleet des share some designations and ranks with traditional earth navies it is *not the same*. Starfleets habit of ship designations, ranks, order of command and operation procedure is that of a fictional exploratory service in the 23rd and 24th century. Wether this is due to the writers having limited knowledge of these military practices or they changed it on purpose doesn't matter - what we see on screen is how it works.

    This is not solely aimed at you, mind you. But I wish a lot of people n these forums alone would begin to understand that, especially military aficionados drawing comparisions to their own service time. That doesn't work.

    In regards to the actual topic of your post, a ship commanded by an Admiral was called simply the "Admiral's ship" if I remember correctly. Flagship was a term designated to *the* flagship of the UFP/Starfleet.

    It does work in some regards. But yeah there are significant difference.

    But to the flagship issue: given that they are not working like real military flagiships.... Well there has to be a reason why they designate a ship "flagship", and if it's not the military function it can only be a representative function.

    And this would indeed mean it has to be the newest and best the Feds have. That's not the odysee any more.
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    mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    It does work in some regards. But yeah there are significant difference.

    But to the flagship issue: given that they are not working like real military flagiships.... Well there has to be a reason why they designate a ship "flagship", and if it's not the military function it can only be a representative function.

    And this would indeed mean it has to be the newest and best the Feds have. That's not the odysee any more.

    It could just be representing the Federation due to its long and glorious tradition of the name "Enterprise" - even if it's no longer the most modern ship.

    If the Enterprise is send anywhere, it means the Federation means it seriously - be it as honor for an ally or a new kid on the block, or as a threat to an enemy.

    And of course, it could well be that the Enterprise has been upgraded to the newest standards - just the playable Oddys haven't.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
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    angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    It does work in some regards. But yeah there are significant difference.

    But to the flagship issue: given that they are not working like real military flagiships.... Well there has to be a reason why they designate a ship "flagship", and if it's not the military function it can only be a representative function.

    And this would indeed mean it has to be the newest and best the Feds have. That's not the odysee any more.

    It is by all accounts a representative function but not necessarily of technology. The Ent-D just happened to be the most advanced ship at the time but more importantly it embodied the ideals of the UFP and Starfleet and further carried a name of legend, known far beyond the reaches of the UFP itself.

    But I doubt the title is handed over simply when a new ship class gets comissioned. I would suspect it will change once the current flagship drops out of service for one reason or the other. The Oddyssey still represents everything the UFP and Starfleet stand for as it is the direct successor of the Galaxy class.

    EDIT: The Oddyssey is, in-universe, still amongst the most advanced ships. It is only comissioned for a few months. Technically, the "refit" lineup with the Type-6 material, the Oddy and the command cruisers and everything in between is on the exact same technology level. It's only the bucked up gamedesign that lets some ships seem "inferior" to generate dps but in-universe they all are the same, basically.
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
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    nesomumi2nesomumi2 Member Posts: 359 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    stark2k wrote: »
    I am a bit of a lost in wondering what Federation ship is the "NEW" Federation Flagship, class wise. It is obvious that the Oddy is now obsolete & semi-defunct with or without an upgrade token.

    The Enterprise NCC 1701 F is officially obsolete compared to all the new ships in the market. If the Oddy is still the flagship class of the Federation, than the ship itself desrves a full Tier 6 upgrade or a Tier 6 Variant with the appropriate Intel and Command BO's.

    If the Oddy is no longer relevant, then which of the new command ships is the official flagship of the Federation?

    Why is oddy obsolete? what replace it?
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    nightkennightken Member Posts: 2,824 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    nesomumi2 wrote: »
    Why is oddy obsolete? what replace it?

    Because new shiny. and people forget that not everything is ether best thing ever or trash. Only fleet level T6 ships are better T5u ships. if it sucks it always has. :P

    personally I have only been in once as part of first contact day seemed fine to me then and I fly T5 free from leveling ships in delta content no trouble so it's probably still fine.

    if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
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    ktonof1aqktonof1aq Member Posts: 210 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    stark2k wrote: »
    I am a bit of a lost in wondering what Federation ship is the "NEW" Federation Flagship, class wise. It is obvious that the Oddy is now obsolete & semi-defunct with or without an upgrade token.

    The Enterprise NCC 1701 F is officially obsolete compared to all the new ships in the market. If the Oddy is still the flagship class of the Federation, than the ship itself desrves a full Tier 6 upgrade or a Tier 6 Variant with the appropriate Intel and Command BO's.

    If the Oddy is no longer relevant, then which of the new command ships is the official flagship of the Federation?
    . Age really doesn't have much to do with it.


    Y'all keep equating "new" with better. I also find the discussion about "obsolete" curious.

    First, to your statement, the "flagship" of the U.S. Navy is an OOOOOOLD ship, the U.S.S. Constitution http://www.ussconstitutionmuseum.org/

    Second, these Starfleet ships, much like current naval vessels, were designed for extended life. These ships would be in operation for 75+ years designed with modular switch out and undergoing constant upgrades. If you look at the U.S. Navy for instance we are still retiring ships that were in operation during the Korean war, Vietnam. Heck the USS Missouri (which you'll remember from your World War 2 history) was used in the U.S. Shock and Awe campain at the start of the war in Iraq.

    Just because something is old, doesn't mean you throw it away. I think I heard that somewhere.
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    ktonof1aqktonof1aq Member Posts: 210 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    The only reason they changed the ships so often in Star Trek was because of the differences in how the ships would look on the big screen and improvements in technology.

    The TOS enterprise was HUGE and detailed only on the right side.

    TNG Enterprise was too heavy and difficult to film. The history of the Enterprise D is actually pretty interesting. I encourage you to youtube it. They designed it without talking with anyone and then had to stick with it because of the cost.

    When TNG hit the big screen, it dies in the first film. Hello E. Reason, CGI, success of blowing up Enterprise in ST2TWOK, opportunity to get rid of the "filming nightmare" (watch the video) TNG Enterprise.

    etc etc.
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    rahmkota19rahmkota19 Member Posts: 1,929 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    ...We actually dont know if the original enterprise was the 2nd or the 20th constitution class ship. ...

    Actually, we do know that the Enterprise was the second Constitution. Its the NCC-1701, with the Constitution herself being the NCC-1700.


    Other than that, the Federation's flagship isn't a military ship. Its a ship to embody the ideals of the Federation. It is built to explore, to engage in diplomacy, and sometimes to defend the Federation. This is why we see the Enterprise a lot, we have a lot of defending to do. Had it been peace, Shon would be flying beyond the reaches of explored space.
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    eldarion79eldarion79 Member Posts: 1,679 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    valoreah wrote: »
    I'm going to go with NO on that one. ;)

    I would go with a yes, since the Starfleet C-N-C said Enterprise with Kirk at the helm. Given that the Miranda was supposed to be on equal basis with the Enterprise, it was never about the class of ship.
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    deathsremnantdeathsremnant Member Posts: 265
    edited February 2015
    Even in the show the enterprise was considered the flagship for ages but was not always the most tech advanced or newest ship in the fleet...

    The oddy is fine as is stop whining :/ yada yada its just a game yada
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    whamhammer1whamhammer1 Member Posts: 2,290 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    angrytarg wrote: »
    It is by all accounts a representative function but not necessarily of technology. The Ent-D just happened to be the most advanced ship at the time but more importantly it embodied the ideals of the UFP and Starfleet and further carried a name of legend, known far beyond the reaches of the UFP itself.

    But I doubt the title is handed over simply when a new ship class gets comissioned. I would suspect it will change once the current flagship drops out of service for one reason or the other. The Oddyssey still represents everything the UFP and Starfleet stand for as it is the direct successor of the Galaxy class.

    I remember the existence of a Sovereign class Enterprise, by saying the Ody' "represents....direct succesor to the Galaxy", are you suggesting that the Sovereign didnt represent what UFP and Starfleet stood for?

    What ship are you suggesting took over as the Fed flagship after Ent' D?

    I do believe the Ody' should get a T6 version, maybe as a flexible ship that can use either Intel o orCommand. I think that the Ody, and its Fed and Rom equivalent can fill the Zoggin Huge Ship role.
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    angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    I remember the existence of a Sovereign class Enterprise, by saying the Ody' "represents....direct succesor to the Galaxy", are you suggesting that the Sovereign didnt represent what UFP and Starfleet stood for?

    What ship are you suggesting took over as the Fed flagship after Ent' D?

    I do believe the Ody' should get a T6 version, maybe as a flexible ship that can use either Intel o orCommand. I think that the Ody, and its Fed and Rom equivalent can fill the Zoggin Huge Ship role.

    The Sovereign took over the name Enterprise but did not succeed the Galaxy class line of ships (the two are vastly different ships). The Enterrise-E was never stated to be the flagship of the UFP though.

    I have no idea which took over the flagship role. The Ent-E would make sense but that was never verified, they just called it the most advanced ship. So, who knows :D
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
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    cookiecrookcookiecrook Member Posts: 4,524 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    Personall, I am not a fan of hte Odyssey design and would like to see the Enterprise G make an appearance. I think the best candidate for the Enterprise G would be a Vesta class starship.
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    whamhammer1whamhammer1 Member Posts: 2,290 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    angrytarg wrote: »
    The Sovereign took over the name Enterprise but did not succeed the Galaxy class line of ships (the two are vastly different ships). The Enterrise-E was never stated to be the flagship of the UFP though.

    I have no idea which took over the flagship role. The Ent-E would make sense but that was never verified, they just called it the most advanced ship. So, who knows :D

    Not to be argumentitive, I believe that enough of ST lore points towars a ship named enterprise to be the a flagship in its own right. Many would suggest the the Enterprise E's flagship status is implied, even if it wasnt scripted in converstation ( not as much opportunity as the 5000 plus minutes of TNG footage with the Galaxy class as the Enterprise D vs a few movies). Although the ship isnt as much of an explorer as the Galaxy is, its still a very high profile ship (Ent E) negotiating alliances and acting as the representative of the Federation.
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    krilldarnkrilldarn Member Posts: 211 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    Not to be argumentitive, I believe that enough of ST lore points towars a ship named enterprise to be the a flagship in its own right. Many would suggest the the Enterprise E's flagship status is implied, even if it wasnt scripted in converstation ( not as much opportunity as the 5000 plus minutes of TNG footage with the Galaxy class as the Enterprise D vs a few movies). Although the ship isnt as much of an explorer as the Galaxy is, its still a very high profile ship (Ent E) negotiating alliances and acting as the representative of the Federation.

    Taken from a pdf by Micheal Okuda... http://www.asdb.net/asdb/docs/sotsf/SOTSF4.pdf

    Starfleet divided the quadrants (Alpha and Beta) into 4 sections each and each had it's own fleet. Each of these fleets had mulitple flagship. The term flagship in the context of Starfleet means simply the command ship in the fleet. So each Quadrant split into four then further divided by patrol areas resulted in each fleet having more than one flagship.
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    atalossataloss Member Posts: 563 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    cbob312 wrote: »
    The Odyssey retrofit will come in 3 varieties, Intel, Command and ???. It will be the result of a breakthrough in understanding Dyson tech.

    It will sport dual solar plasma cannons, be able to deploy drones and the escort as well as spit off it's central saucer section and battle saucer. It will also have the ability to perform an advanced Picard maneuver.


    If all that is true,...and they make it a zen ship, then take my money now.
    One day Cryptic will be free from their Perfect World overlord. Until that day comes, they will continue to pamper the whales of this game, and ignore everyone that isn't a whale.
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    whamhammer1whamhammer1 Member Posts: 2,290 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    krilldarn wrote: »
    Taken from a pdf by Micheal Okuda... http://www.asdb.net/asdb/docs/sotsf/SOTSF4.pdf

    Starfleet divided the quadrants (Alpha and Beta) into 4 sections each and each had it's own fleet. Each of these fleets had mulitple flagship. The term flagship in the context of Starfleet means simply the command ship in the fleet. So each Quadrant split into four then further divided by patrol areas resulted in each fleet having more than one flagship.

    While that makes sense to me, others will make the argument that in the script they said "THE flagship of the Federation." Thats the problem with Star Trek canon, its not as linear as it should be to quote it chapter and verse. Far too many outliers. But I love it anyways.
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    oldravenman3025oldravenman3025 Member Posts: 1,892 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    valoreah wrote: »
    I had thought Picard said that the Enterprise D was the Federation (not fleet) flagship in "Generations"?



    The references to the NCC-1701-D as being the "flagship" of Starfleet, and the Federation, was more of a colloquial statement than hard fact. That, or the ignorance of the production team and writers of TNG of what being a flagship entails.



    Was it the friendly face of the Federation? Sure. But not a "flagship" in an actual naval sense. It's more like the idea of a flagship model or brand used colloquially by marketing departments.
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