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The forums: The gutter of STO?

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  • blassreiterusblassreiterus Member Posts: 1,294 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    tacofangs wrote: »
    I think it's the medium that is betraying your intent. By making a sig, which is simply omnipresent in all of your posts, and lacking a direction at any given individual, the message comes across as being directed at everyone.

    The sigs are a shotgun, not a scalpel.

    The point being, it doesn't matter if you intend for it to be directed at a single individual. If that individual is someone I work with, someone I see on a daily basis, it's hard to not feel the hits, even when they aren't aimed directly at me.

    Admittedly, I don't know what the scalpel would be in this case. I just don't feel that the sigs are accomplishing what you might have intended.




    Sure, I get that, and I don't disagree. However, the signatures are the equivalent of standing outside of the Cryptic office holding signs that say "This sucks!"

    . . . uh. . . ok. . . WHAT sucks? Without expounding on the issue you are protesting, it comes across as protesting the everything.





    Precisely.




    I have, but your signature isn't simply stating what's wrong, it's implying that the devs are slave masters, and forcing you to do things. Your signature is imbued with emotion. It's dripping with hate, which makes it very easy to dismiss. Yes, it's clear you don't like the grind, nor the metrics, but that is hardly constructive.




    Precisely.




    I can develop the game just fine without visiting the forums.




    Sure, but if that's the case, didn't you just admit that the sig pic was essentially just noise? The sig did nothing to raise the issues you talk about in your posts, and does nothing to attract positive attention to said posts. . . so. . . how is that sig helping get your point across again?




    Funny, cuz that's essentially what BetaBorg just told me . . .
    I wholeheartedly agree with everything that Taco stated in this post. He said it perfectly so that no one can misunderstand him.
    Clearly DR is NOT the best expansion ever and a more than significant number of players do not love it.
    Significant number of players do not love Delta Rising, you say? You have verifiable proof on that?
    Star Trek Online LTS player.
  • qjuniorqjunior Member Posts: 2,023 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    valoreah wrote: »
    Well, yes and no. It did help since it did grab your attention to the subject. I'm sure you all may have asked what all of them were about, no?

    Unless they only look at signatures, they surely couldn't have missed the feedback put into words.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,474 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    hfmudd wrote: »
    You are special, you are unique, and you are passionate. You are also insignificant. Get used to it.

    I think I have a new sigline.
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • eltatuseltatus Member Posts: 291 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    I get what you're saying Taco; but honestly after hearing one of your Leads (Al Rivera - aka Captain Gekko) state the forums are mostly complaints made by players who hate change; and he often just has a game where he counts "how many posts 'til Hitler" <--- His words; you have a lead basically saying that he doesn't find Forum feedback of any use.

    Given that, why would you expect anyone to discuss anything here when one of the Leads who signs off decisions just browses for Godwin'd threads/posts.

    Maybe if D'Angelo or Gekko tried ways to solicit info from the players without often dismissing feedback in that manner you would get the occasional nugget of an actual discussion and not just outrage.

    Hell, the last few developer blogs on the STO/Arc newsite didn't have the somewhat previously customary link entitled "discuss this on the forums" linking to an official forum thread; so it seems maybe the higher ups have decided they don't want to look at the forums any longer.

    I understand in the end, it IS all about cashflow/profit, etc. as PWE IS a business; but the sudden shift to an attitude 'monetization first, fun gameplay if possible" is really starting to wear thin for a lot of players, myself included. And that's the direction I feel STO has been taking since season 8.5.


    And you hit the nail..
    _________________________________________________

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ddesjardinsddesjardins Member Posts: 3,056 Media Corps
    edited January 2015
    vocmcp wrote: »
    The forum: The forsaken gutter of STO?

    Judging by Cryptics attitude lately this is indeed how it is being seen. Well guys, you may not like the bashing, the trolling or whatever else it is that itches you, but simply leaving the forum is not very professional. While I understand that Dev's may not frequent some places that much anymore I have absolutely no understanding for your communication team not doing what they're being paid by us to do: Communicate with us! Not posting news into the Galactic News network anymore is just the latest example of how forsaken this place is. At least have the guts to COMMUNICATE a change in communication style. And on that note, remember that it is not possible not to communicate. But you may choose how you do it.

    So man up, get your act together, and face us*. This will earn you much more respect than just lying low. Besides:




    *rofl.....as if writing news would even qualify as such......ridiculous attitude

    In Cryptics defense, yes, they are trying to communicate more but I don't think that (it should) include responding to every challenge offered in the forums.

    I tend to look outside the forums at this stage. I get more timely interaction over on Reddit without the flames.
  • betaborgbetaborg Member Posts: 46 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    tacofangs wrote: »
    I can develop the game just fine without visiting the forums.

    See and that's the main problem. You don't care the wishes of us customers. What else medium should we use in order to make suggestions? There wouldn't be so many problems if you would simply listen to us. But by not reading the forums as an essential communication hub for our advices, wishes etc. and principally developing the game "how you like it", you basically ignore progress.

    I think this statement was so obviously unnecessary and condescending, but easily explains how most of you Dev's truely think.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Originally Posted by tacofangs
    I can develop the game just fine without visiting the forums.
  • thutmosis85thutmosis85 Member Posts: 2,358 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    tacofangs wrote: »
    I think it's the medium that is betraying your intent. By making a sig, which is simply omnipresent in all of your posts, and lacking a direction at any given individual, the message comes across as being directed at everyone.

    The sigs are a shotgun, not a scalpel.

    The point being, it doesn't matter if you intend for it to be directed at a single individual. If that individual is someone I work with, someone I see on a daily basis, it's hard to not feel the hits, even when they aren't aimed directly at me.

    I'm confused ... isn't it kind of obvious it's directed at the one person who actually said it ... so it is ? But isn't the real problem with that individual you're seeing on a daily basis, then ?
    tacofangs wrote: »
    Sure, I get that, and I don't disagree. However, the signatures are the equivalent of standing outside of the Cryptic office holding signs that say "This sucks!"

    . . . uh. . . ok. . . WHAT sucks? Without expounding on the issue you are protesting, it comes across as protesting the everything.

    There is plenty of evidence (even within the last 1-2 pages of this Thread) to suggest otherwise ... so what's your point ?

    tacofangs wrote: »
    I can develop the game just fine without visiting the forums.

    You probably can, people interested in playing what you develop is another matter, though ... this is not intended to be an complaint about what you're developing ... I don't think you're "the problem" here (on the contrary) .... I just don't think this statement makes much sense ... you know "Shotgun", you just fired a full broadside ...
    Patch Notes : Resolved an Issue, where people would accidently experience Fun.
  • ccarmichael07ccarmichael07 Member Posts: 755 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    tacofangs wrote: »

    Sure, I get that, and I don't disagree. However, the signatures are the equivalent of standing outside of the Cryptic office holding signs that say "This sucks!"

    . . . uh. . . ok. . . WHAT sucks? Without expounding on the issue you are protesting, it comes across as protesting the everything.

    There has been, for the entire history of this forum, a reluctance by ANYONE from cryptic, to discuss "the issues."

    This dates back even further than the old "Ask Cryptic" series, but for the moment, I'll focus on that. The Ask Cryptic series (for the recently joined) was a forum thread where players could post questions, then at the end of the month, the EP would take a selection of questions and answer them.

    Of course, the tough topics were never chosen. The hard hitting questions were never answered. It was fluff / substance as the driving motive of the series.

    You want to know where this buildup of discontent comes from? Look back at every post over the last 5 years that ever asked a tough question, or focused on a less than desirable change to the game. And then, see if in those posts the players were responded to, or their concerns addressed.

    You'll find your answers in history Mr. Taco, and history is not on yours or Cryptic's side in this.

    MMOs are a joint venture. You guys own the game, develop it, and put it out. But you need us to play it, as much as we need you to make it. But over the last 5 years, the relationship has shifted to favor the Cryptic side more and more, and that's bound to irritate a good many people.

    The people you rely on to make $$$.


    "You shoot him, I shoot you, I leave both your bodies here and go out for a late night snack.
    I'm thinking maybe pancakes." ~ John Casey
  • knuhteb5knuhteb5 Member Posts: 1,831 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    tacofangs wrote: »
    I'm not sure how many times I have to say the same thing, but I really, REALLY don't mind hearing negative comments, criticisms of the game, etc. I really DO mind when those comments and criticisms are not civil or respectful. I don't only want to hear good things, or have my ego stroked. I just want that feedback to be constructive, not bilious.

    People keep saying that the forum sigs are a joke, and are meant to affect change. . . but change what? The signatures say nothing of what you want. What they do, is make a cheap jab at the devs. It's clear that you don't like something, but the signatures do nothing to tell me (or anyone) what it is.

    You want us to interact like adults? Great! Let's do that. Using our words. In a polite, respectful manner (on BOTH sides).

    Making a passive aggressive meme is not helping anything, IMHO.

    Edit: The thing with the sigs, is it isn't any one sig that's so terrible I cry myself to sleep at night. It's that the abundance persistence of them is just grating over time. Like I said, they feel like little jabs at the whole dev team for a single comment most of us had nothing to do with. That is wearing, and after a while, makes me not want to subject myself to it anymore.

    Eidt 2: For what it's worth, I'm an ESFP last I checked. . .

    I will change my sig tonight out of respect for you and because you have politely asked for it to be removed. That being said, I have explicitly stated in 4-5 different threads that dilithium rewards need to be improved for stf's, normal included. This has been one of the main requests from many, many different players.

    Another problem is how disjointed the delta storyline feels because the missions don't give enough experience to immediately progress to the next story. We shouldn't have to do 10-15 side missions just to get to the next delta story mission.

    3rd of all, reduce the hp of npc baddies in stf's but keep elite as it is now and improve the AI of the enemies. Most players want smarter enemies, not bullet sponges.

    Fourth of all, throw us a bone on any sort of upcoming klingon/romulan content. At least tell us your working on something.

    5th of all, improve communication with the playerbase. I'm looking at you, Smirk, yes. You need to more actively communicate with the playerbase with respect to bugs, communicate those bugs to the dev team, and communicate any delays in addressing said bugs to the playerbase on the forums in a timely manner.

    That is all for now. Thank you for engaging with us Taco.
    aGHGQIKr41KNi.gif
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  • aoax10aoax10 Member Posts: 271 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    tacofangs wrote: »
    I think it's the medium that is betraying your intent. By making a sig, which is simply omnipresent in all of your posts, and lacking a direction at any given individual, the message comes across as being directed at everyone.

    The sigs are a shotgun, not a scalpel.

    The point being, it doesn't matter if you intend for it to be directed at a single individual. If that individual is someone I work with, someone I see on a daily basis, it's hard to not feel the hits, even when they aren't aimed directly at me.

    Admittedly, I don't know what the scalpel would be in this case. I just don't feel that the sigs are accomplishing what you might have intended.




    Sure, I get that, and I don't disagree. However, the signatures are the equivalent of standing outside of the Cryptic office holding signs that say "This sucks!"

    . . . uh. . . ok. . . WHAT sucks? Without expounding on the issue you are protesting, it comes across as protesting the everything.


    I have, but your signature isn't simply stating what's wrong, it's implying that the devs are slave masters, and forcing you to do things. Your signature is imbued with emotion. It's dripping with hate, which makes it very easy to dismiss. Yes, it's clear you don't like the grind, nor the metrics, but that is hardly constructive.

    Maybe you missed the part where several others have stated in this very thread that WE have mentioned the problems with the game and have been ignored. As for myself, (imbuled with emotion? I think not) there is no emotion behind it at all. It a simple message that states what WE have been trying to tell you and the team you work with for several years about the game. Sure, it comes off as sarcastic, but it does give the message that DR sucks. Why does it suck? Look at all the constructive criticism behind the angry posters. Actually log onto the game and look at the ques. Play the game and see what we see. We are being ignored my friend.
  • blassreiterusblassreiterus Member Posts: 1,294 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Yes... These forums... NEXT!
    These forums, eh? Moot point. Just because players on the forums are dissatisfied, that doesn't mean there are significant numbers of players dissatisfied.
    Star Trek Online LTS player.
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  • aoax10aoax10 Member Posts: 271 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    And I seriously hope you don't take things offensively. I do not try to come off as offensive to you or the team. I just have a hard time trying to understand why you are upset with continuous sigs that you think are shotgunned at you or your team when you have an entire player-base that has been upset for a good while now. It doesn't make sense to me.
  • nicha0nicha0 Member Posts: 1,456 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    These forums, eh? Moot point. Just because players on the forums are dissatisfied, that doesn't mean there are significant numbers of players dissatisfied.

    Steam log in numbers are also a good indicator, they are getting close to 50% the pre-DR log in values and are continuing to slide
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  • kristaswiftkristaswift Member Posts: 306 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    bluegeek wrote: »

    3. Mods can remove the posts but not the posters. Only a PWE employee can issue an infraction and it usually takes 3-4 infractions before they get a perma-ban. They don't start issuing infractions unless a person does something really awful or they demonstrate a history of disregard for the rules. That policy hasn't changed in, well, forever.

    4. Mods can't touch a forum user's profile, which is where the sig lives. So if we find a bad sig, all we can do is report it and let PWE handle it. This is as it should be. You want a non-PWE employee mucking with your forum profile?

    Would you please clarify point 3? Does it take 20 points or 3-4 points? As per:
    http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/announcement.php?f=128&a=51

    It says takes 20.

    A kind suggestion is to let people know the reason why signatures/avatars are being removed so we can change them. I have submitted tickets about it already and not discussing policies just asking for clarification for future reference.

    Thanks
  • ddesjardinsddesjardins Member Posts: 3,056 Media Corps
    edited January 2015
    tacofangs wrote: »
    I'm not sure how many times I have to say the same thing, but I really, REALLY don't mind hearing negative comments, criticisms of the game, etc. I really DO mind when those comments and criticisms are not civil or respectful. I don't only want to hear good things, or have my ego stroked. I just want that feedback to be constructive, not bilious.

    People keep saying that the forum sigs are a joke, and are meant to affect change. . . but change what? The signatures say nothing of what you want. What they do, is make a cheap jab at the devs. It's clear that you don't like something, but the signatures do nothing to tell me (or anyone) what it is.

    You want us to interact like adults? Great! Let's do that. Using our words. In a polite, respectful manner (on BOTH sides).

    Making a passive aggressive meme is not helping anything, IMHO.

    Edit: The thing with the sigs, is it isn't any one sig that's so terrible I cry myself to sleep at night. It's that the abundance and persistence of them is just grating over time. Like I said, they feel like little jabs at the whole dev team for a single comment most of us had nothing to do with. That is wearing, and after a while, makes me not want to subject myself to it anymore.

    Eidt 2: For what it's worth, I'm an ESFP last I checked. . .


    There is a simple solution. Many of us posted ideas multiple times on how you could improve the system while maintaining a decent monetization.

    Maybe they didn't work for Cryptic. Ok.

    As for the signatures, well that's a even simpler solution.
    "Hi

    This is YOU KNOW WHO -

    During a recent podcast, I made a couple of assertions off the top of my head which may have come across as being disconnected to what's happening in the game.

    First - at the time, I was sure they were true in principle. Please let me revise those comments.

    1.) It does take more that 2 hours of playtime to increase an item from one rank to another. in truth we don't have an accurate number because there are so many elements, it can vary from player to player, item to item. Lower rank items yes, VR elite items no. But it's reasonable to assume the higher the quality of the item, the more it will cost.

    2.) Yes, it's costs more than 5000 dil to raise an item to mark XIV. I got mixed up with a previous test I ran on a Mark II item. As I have already said, we wanted this process to take players time.

    Our goal was to have some sort of quotable meric - like it taking X hours to raise one item to XIV. I think we're close to achieving that, and in the rush to judgement on our release we lost sight of providing the players with some form of measurable goal.

    It didn't help that players rushed to see the total costs. That was very off-putting for many of us. But at the end of the day the spreadsheets, calculators and even the infographic did show a picture that it's going to take a dedicated player a lot of time to complete.

    That was intentional.

    3.) As for 'this is the best ______'. From a financial standpoint, the game is very successful and we are proud of that. Many of you feel that monetization is somehow not part of the F2P model. Here we disagree. For STO to continue we need not just to be profitable - but growing in terms of sales. If that means a smaller player base, that is a price we're very willing to pay.

    4.) Reporting bugs with the queues. Ok, you got me there.

    Our goal as a company and as the caretakers of an incredible IP is to make sure that continues to thrive for years to come.

    We do read your posts, and we will strive to do better. We work and look forward a future with you as our customers.

    Respectfully Yours,

    YOU KNOW WHO"
  • chuckingramchuckingram Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    tacofangs wrote: »
    I'm not sure how many times I have to say the same thing, but I really, REALLY don't mind hearing negative comments, criticisms of the game, etc. I really DO mind when those comments and criticisms are not civil or respectful. I don't only want to hear good things, or have my ego stroked. I just want that feedback to be constructive, not bilious.

    Really? Then where are the forum policy requirements AND the moderators to enforce it? Also, you just have to know that, considering the nature of the medium, "civility" and "respect" are rare commodities indeed.

    From me to you Taco: While civility is a given for me unless another approach is warranted, respect is earned in real-time. If you want my respect all you have to do is get in here and supply us with some insights on what's happening behind the curtain, listen to carefully posed complaints and respond, and most of all ignore the fools.
  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 3,008 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    I've found my enjoyment of the game went up when I took a long leave of absence from the boards. I don't think both sides are without blame.

    There could be a better way of communicating with the players. Instead of just blog posts about upcoming changes to the game...explain the changes...why they change was being made. This players don't misinterpret why a change is being made...or why a change isn't being made.

    The other side of the coin is we as players have to be patient...changes don't happen over night...and stop latching onto every other world the dev team says to throw it back at them (Like the one poster who listened to a pod cast where someone clearly said it's not a copy and paste job in relation to T6 ships and went on a crusade saying it was a copy and past job and something about animations).

    Communication isn't the answer...BETTER communication is the answer. It's in everyone's best interests to communicate better.
    Your pain runs deep.
    Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
  • jam3s1701jam3s1701 Member Posts: 1,825 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    nicha0 wrote: »
    Steam log in numbers are also a good indicator, they are getting close to 50% the pre-DR log in values and are continuing to slide

    Sorry but this is 1 of 3 ways to login to STO and the figures on Steam means nothing really its like comparing 1 news network shown on 3 different mediums but 1shows low figures does not mean the news network is failing it just means that people chose to use only 1 or 2 ways to see it. ( if that makes sense )

    There is only one way to find out if STO is failing or not and that's to get figures from Cryptic themselves and that prob won't happen
    JtaDmwW.png
  • aoax10aoax10 Member Posts: 271 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    jam3s1701 wrote: »
    Sorry but this is 1 of 3 ways to login to STO and the figures on Steam means nothing really its like comparing 1 news network shown on 3 different mediums but 1shows low figures does not mean the news network is failing it just means that people chose to use only 1 or 2 ways to see it. ( if that makes sense )

    There is only one way to find out if STO is failing or not and that's to get figures from Cryptic themselves and that prob won't happen

    It's the best information we have. Like science, if something else new comes the way, then by all means that data will be used. Also, don't forget the empty ques in the game. Another indicator the game is spiraling. When new information comes along, I'll be happy to change what I say about the population and success if at all.
  • nicha0nicha0 Member Posts: 1,456 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    jam3s1701 wrote: »
    Sorry but this is 1 of 3 ways to login to STO and the figures on Steam means nothing really its like comparing 1 news network shown on 3 different mediums but 1shows low figures does not mean the news network is failing it just means that people chose to use only 1 or 2 ways to see it. ( if that makes sense )

    No, your arguement doesn't make sense, sorry. People who were playing and logging in with Steam stopped playing, they did not just randomly change to a new log in method. Those are very real people who stopped playing the game because they didn't like what is here.

    You can attempt to bring those numbers to Arc or the standalone, I know there are more of them using those methods, but it doesn't matter. The point is; at peak times there are about 1400 people less logged in now with Steam than there used to be. It is a measurable fact of discontent.

    We went from 3500-3700 to 2000-2300.
    Logically the other log in methods were impacted on some scale as well, but just for clarity you don't need to include them to tell you people are gone.
    Delirium Tremens
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    Nothing to do anymore.
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  • ddesjardinsddesjardins Member Posts: 3,056 Media Corps
    edited January 2015
    jam3s1701 wrote: »
    Sorry but this is 1 of 3 ways to login to STO and the figures on Steam means nothing really its like comparing 1 news network shown on 3 different mediums but 1shows low figures does not mean the news network is failing it just means that people chose to use only 1 or 2 ways to see it. ( if that makes sense )

    There is only one way to find out if STO is failing or not and that's to get figures from Cryptic themselves and that prob won't happen

    Incorrect.

    While the Steam numbers may not accurately the entire playerbase, it does indicate a noticeable trend. As a metaphor - we're not talking about todays weather, but rather discussing climate over a century.

    If that trend can be seen in-game - logins of fleet members, queue activity YOY for example - then it's safe to assume that should we be able to see the logins of the game in a total, similar or identical trends will be visible.

    I'm a member of three fleets. In each case the number of logged in players is about 50% of what it was last year at this time.

    It could be that my breath or conversation topics have frightened away players. Or that newer and better games have come out. Or that theres a reporting bug. These things happen.

    Trends are the general course or prevailing tendency; drift:
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  • jam3s1701jam3s1701 Member Posts: 1,825 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    OK let's say for arguments sake these players have left OK ...

    But we all know when one leave more join and this isn't always steam so what I'm saying is guess steam isn't accurate in any sense hence my comment about full figures from cryptic.
    JtaDmwW.png
  • sheldonlcoopersheldonlcooper Member Posts: 4,042 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    How does the steam chart show this great decline??

    December 2012 1,790.2

    December 2013 1,879.7

    December 2014 1,774.9


    It is stunningly consistent.
    Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."

    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

  • ddesjardinsddesjardins Member Posts: 3,056 Media Corps
    edited January 2015
    How does the steam chart show this great decline??

    December 2012 1,790.2

    December 2013 1,879.7

    December 2014 1,774.9


    It is stunningly consistent.

    Darn it Sheldon, you of all people should know the difference between weather and climate.
  • tacofangstacofangs Member Posts: 2,951 Cryptic Developer
    edited January 2015
    eltatus wrote: »
    There are millions of post about that and not a single one of them even got an answerd, but the contrary, each step cryptic has made, was the contrary that we asked for.

    So, plz, dont give us the "we need better feedback" beacose we went that road and yet, nothing ever has came, not even a "thank you".

    Dont get me wrong, I like you. You are a good dev and it seems that also a good guy, but the company that you work, is not inocent here, in fact, they started this.

    That was not me saying "we need better feedback."
    That was me saying "creating (or helping to create) a hostile environment through the use of a passive aggressive meme, RATHER THAN constructive feedback, is not helpful.


    And please, everyone who's saying "nothing ever comes of feedback" just stop. Yes, it may not be as often as you like, but there are a thousand times that feedback from players, from the forums, has had a direct impact on something we did in the game.

    betaborg wrote: »
    See and that's the main problem. You don't care the wishes of us customers. What else medium should we use in order to make suggestions? There wouldn't be so many problems if you would simply listen to us. But by not reading the forums as an essential communication hub for our advices, wishes etc. and principally developing the game "how you like it", you basically ignore progress.

    I think this statement was so obviously unnecessary and condescending, but easily explains how most of you Dev's truely think.

    This is patently false. My line about being able to develop the game without visiting the forums is not saying I don't care what you have to say. It's saying that my interaction with you here is entirely voluntary on my part. If I feel like I'm taking hits below the belt, or getting too much flak, I can just leave. Your feedback is important, and we DO care what you think.

    Beta, you say there wouldn't be as many problems if we "just listened" to you. If you say Apple, and someone else says Broccoli, what's the right answer? We can't do both, we have to pick one. No matter which we pick, we will be told that we didn't listen* to the other side.

    *Note: Listening does not equal action. We listened to both sides, and we picked a direction. Apple won. That doesn't mean Broccoli was ignored.

    Also note that, as I've mentioned before (and started a fire over), STO is a product. We make a product. You are the consumers. You can choose to consume said product, or not consume said product. You can offer feedback about said product, and we may or may not choose to utilize your feedback. You are not the only thing that decides how/what our product is.*

    *Note: This is NOT me saying "STFU or GTFO" as was the misinterpretation last time, so please don't take it as such this time. We've had that thread already.
    Only YOU can prevent forum fires!
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  • iconiansiconians Member Posts: 6,987 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    tacofangs wrote: »
    I'm not sure how many times I have to say the same thing, but I really, REALLY don't mind hearing negative comments, criticisms of the game, etc. I really DO mind when those comments and criticisms are not civil or respectful. I don't only want to hear good things, or have my ego stroked. I just want that feedback to be constructive, not bilious.

    People keep saying that the forum sigs are a joke, and are meant to affect change. . . but change what? The signatures say nothing of what you want. What they do, is make a cheap jab at the devs. It's clear that you don't like something, but the signatures do nothing to tell me (or anyone) what it is.

    You want us to interact like adults? Great! Let's do that. Using our words. In a polite, respectful manner (on BOTH sides).

    Making a passive aggressive meme is not helping anything, IMHO.

    It's funny, because when I suggest these things, I get called a Cryptic fanboy who has extremely thin skin because I don't have a sense of humor.

    A good real life example of this is a game called "The Dozens", and I'm sure a few of you have heard of it. It generally involves jokes regarding disparaging remarks involving somebody's mother. The object of 'the game' is to get progressively more insulting and creative with the remarks until the other person eventually loses their cool and gets angry.

    People who play "The Dozens" are much like the people with these signatures who tell others that it isn't being toxic or being mean.

    Unfortunately, I have seen many games of "The Dozens" resulting not unlike this Delta Rising sig meme. People actually do end up taking to offense to it, and recognize it isn't a game, it's just immature.

    On the forums, people have the mentality that they must 'stick it' to Cryptic by any means necessary with any ammunition they can get their hands on. I threw in one pseudo-signature just to show I wasn't entirely humorless about the thing, but I recognize it for what it is -- a thinly veiled jab at Cryptic. One of my duty officer submissions likewise briefly made fun of the meme people are running with.

    But to say these signatures are simply made 'in good fun' is really just like "The Dozens". It's fun to the people who play it with one another, until one of them gets served... but if only one participant of "The Dozens" is playing, and the other is not... what does that make it?

    Oh, yes. That makes it a disparaging insult.
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  • naharikajalnaharikajal Member Posts: 232 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Today I saw even some people comparing STO to cancer.

    Or using Hitler in their "Delta Rising"-sigs. Sorry but there's no need for comparing facism (where people were murdered) to a computer game.

    That's just my opinion. But maybe I just missed the point. Who knows...
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