At least at this point we know the signatures have hit someone's feelings on Cryptic's side. I don't think I have ever heard of game developers be offended by a 'message' through a sig before. If that's the case, it's time to hire mature ones that understand the player-base rather than push aside the people who have been here for years.
Don't know if management was hit but "feeling bad about playerbase ridiculing DR" certainly annoyed someone to ban or mute peeps in what could be considered the nerfing of the forums as a Xmas gift.
Some might say that usually forums are negative. I have been here since beta and have not seen the stuff to this level. Other MMOs or forums are not as negative as this one has been since DR but then again other companies at least do listen to their playerbase.
Some people just gave up but some remained to see where this goes. IMO most have left including from forum posting with no apology nor reason why from PWE...except for the fact if don't like it...dont let the door hit you in the behind...
Its a shame that DR in itself wasn't too bad...but the constant nerfing of XP/Dyson/forum voicing coupled with horrible miscommunication and ill feeling from PWE management left a good product down the drain.
PWE needs to work more on its communication and marketing abilities to retain customers and not insult them.
As of this post, there are thousands at ESD, playing the game rather than posting. That is only European night time timezone. The same goes with USA timezone. Even more people are in Asian/AU timezone.
I'd very much like to see the server stats you're basing this purely anecdotal statement upon. If there are thousands upon thousands of rabid players just itching to toss cash at STO why does Cryptic seen so intent on inhaling every last penny they can even to the point of chasing off diehards like me?
BTW stoleviathan...MBTI's are fascinating! That said, we are very complex beings. People do also adapt for situations. I know that it is quite possible for people to get two different impressions of me depending on where they meet me and it is quite possible that the type you'd guess me to be would not be what an IRL colleague would say--and very likely a family member would say something else. (When I take the test though, I actually DO land smack in the middle of two types and which I get depends on what I think of the particular question or my mood that day.)
I think it's partly down to how elastic you are. I'd imagine young people give different readings quite a bit and if you exercise different cognitive muscles, you may end up on the order or with multiple types.
I've got a paper I'm playing with on persona and personality. The long and short of it is that I think most of us have a core personality but CAN have many personas that are environmentally adaptive. Like masks or costumes. Over time though, I think people tend to fall into more stable and fewer personas unless they put a lot of work into it. Though you might be able to trigger a particular persona, which is something I'm playing with researching as a function of sales and marketing.
Maybe John Smith the father of three would never buy ZEN for a F2P game. But John Smith the baseball fan might get the itch once you've profiled the guy's personas and John Smith the former college frat boy would spend a ton of money. So you find ways to trigger that latent persona to make a sale.
You've got two you fluctuate between. I'm sure you have more. But in sales, I might try to figure out which side of you spends more and try to trigger that side of you.
This is old hat, I suspect, to car salesman but it's something I think they do more intuitively and it could be turned into a much more developed science. Especially if incorporated into packaging, advertising, stuff with no salesperson.
We have been politely requesting things for the last 2-3 years. How have the devs responded? Almost 95% of kdf content requests have been ignored or the devs have simply continued to delay it for god knows how long. The kdf also lacks alot of fleet versions of their ships as well that should have been in the game back when the fleet system was introduced. However, we've gotten no news from Cryptic regarding the timetable on adding these into the game. These content areas are the purview of the community manager and yet he doesn't actively communicate with us on these topics or requests. Dev Communication is so abyssmal at this point that even a dev saying it's on the radar and we'll get to it eventually would be enough for me.
A lot of bugs are also reported on tribble and afterwards once live on holodeck but they are often ignored for up to a month or longer. Even if a dev says it will be addressed, it shouldn't take months to resolve such bugs and even if it did, your community manager at the very least should be communicating any delays to us, the playerbase. Your community people have been remiss in the what are considered the most basic responsibilities of community managers.
Sadly, the forums have responded in kind. You have lost the respect of a lot of veterans and long-time forumites. You leave a lot to be desired and you have yet to improve in community relations.
As someone who tests as INTJ I can tell you the first couple sentences are correct. Generally, there is good reason (at least in my case) for the rigid stance. First, being female, any sign of doubt or hestitation in a business world means you are weak and incapable, this is something I dislike, and if it was easier to be more flexible, I would be. Most of the time, I'm quiet.. I don't speak on a subject unless I've thought about it, I don't design new systems until I've gone through dozens, or hundreds of possibilities, approaches, and directions, so when some loud mouth comes by and says "But what about" I dismiss it most of the time; I've thought about it, I'd designed around it or I have details they aren't privy to so it works.
Now I will consider something if I missed an angle or idea. I may add in an additional feature or option to that design, possibly on version 2, because I know version 1 is not the end, its just a start. I don't see this part of the STO design ever happening, I see backlash to horrible systems, I rarely see a good system in place, and tweaked to a satisfying status. So from my perspective, I really don't see the INTJ side of the designs in STO, but then again my morales and ethics are extremely rigidly bound, and I can accept that others won't have these boundaries.
I could personally never design a system to maximize profit without strongly considering balance and affects on my current customers, what they want, and how they will react. I simply refuse to believe that maximum profit is achieved by short term gouging, this business is proof of that. You can boost profits, satisfaction and business all at once with a good deisgn, anything less is not a mastermind
There are generally certain induction techniques to get people like you to build systems like that. I see it all the time in business.
One of the big ones is the idea that happiness is measured by spending and any other expression contrary to that is noise. The real message is spending.
That's what several schools of economics preach and is fairly mainstream in business schools. It's s seductive approach for people with your personality type because it feeds into your introversion and enjoyment of measurable solutions.
And if you accept that, you think that someone who complains and spends is really happy and can dismiss their expression of unhappiness. This resolves the cognitive dissonance without you perceiving it as an ethical breach, if I sell you on this premise.
There's a whole handbook of ways to manipulate INTJs and smart people in general.
Consider for a moment that smart people make less money on average than average people do. Why is that? Also consider that there is a LOT of gain to be had in manipulating smart people which means that it only makes sense that there has been more effort put into manipulating smart people than anyone else. Finally, look at the biographies of great minds. Einstein. Tesla. Oppenheimer. These guys were all subjected to grade A manipulation and the greatest minds at some point ended up developing systems or technology that violated all of their core principles or took credit for their work away from them and most of them took years to realize what had happened, if they ever did.
So much of this is embedded into basic social frameworks to maximize the utility of smart people.
I think smart people are probably as ethical as anyone else if not moreso. I'd be careful assuming someone who designs a high pressure sales system THINKS they're being unethical. I bet they don't. I bet they've been brought around to believe what they're doing is VERY ethical.
And I'm not even saying that's the case here. I'd just advise being careful making moral judgments against people whose actions disagree with your values because there's a whole complicated cultural apparatus that could be feeding them an alternative interpretation of the ethics of what they're doing.
I'm not sure how many times I have to say the same thing, but I really, REALLY don't mind hearing negative comments, criticisms of the game, etc. I really DO mind when those comments and criticisms are not civil or respectful. I don't only want to hear good things, or have my ego stroked. I just want that feedback to be constructive, not bilious.
People keep saying that the forum sigs are a joke, and are meant to affect change. . . but change what? The signatures say nothing of what you want. What they do, is make a cheap jab at the devs. It's clear that you don't like something, but the signatures do nothing to tell me (or anyone) what it is.
You want us to interact like adults? Great! Let's do that. Using our words. In a polite, respectful manner (on BOTH sides).
Making a passive aggressive meme is not helping anything, IMHO.
Edit: The thing with the sigs, is it isn't any one sig that's so terrible I cry myself to sleep at night. It's that the abundance and persistence of them is just grating over time. Like I said, they feel like little jabs at the whole dev team for a single comment most of us had nothing to do with. That is wearing, and after a while, makes me not want to subject myself to it anymore.
Eidt 2: For what it's worth, I'm an ESFP last I checked. . .
Edit: The thing with the sigs, is it isn't any one sig that's so terrible I cry myself to sleep at night. It's that the abundance and persistence of them is just grating over time. Like I said, they feel like little jabs at the whole dev team for a single comment most of us had nothing to do with. That is wearing, and after a while, makes me not want to subject myself to it anymore.
That would seem to be the point, wouldn't it?
If one or two people are making crazy sigs that take jabs...well it's one or two people. But when a multitude, or even heading toward a majority start sporting them, shouldn't that be an indication that something is wrong?
But instead, you see it as attacks, rather than asking the rather obvious question of "what can be done to reverse the trend?"
That would seem to be the crux of the whole matter. Nobody here feels they are taken seriously, nobody feels like their input or feedback is recognized, much less valued, so all that's left is to try and create a stir, somehow, someway.
"You shoot him, I shoot you, I leave both your bodies here and go out for a late night snack.
I'm thinking maybe pancakes." ~ John Casey
Eidt 2: For what it's worth, I'm an ESFP last I checked. . .
I'd say that seems like a reasonable fit. There are a lot of artists in the SP types and it is also clear that you are emotionally invested in your work and there's not an easy "off switch" for that.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
You want us to interact like adults? Great! Let's do that. Using our words. In a polite, respectful manner (on BOTH sides).
Sweet!
While i am pretty happy with the expansion and the game, i am rather uncertain about the elite difficulty.
I can see that normal/advanced/elite would fit the difficulty setting for most of the game but i have the nagging feeling that creating another level of difficulty for stfs just split the player base a little more and thus makes the issue of empty queues more pronounced.
I would have prefered if the elite difficulty would be more like an optional goal within the advanced difficulty or something similar like that. Then again, a complete rework of all stfs with that in mind would probably be enough work to become an expansion of its own. I still would like some insight into the decision how elite difficulty came to be.
Anyway, i do like the new ships, new weapons and new story missions.
You want us to interact like adults? Great! Let's do that. Using our words. In a polite, respectful manner (on BOTH sides).
Last time I (and many others) tried that, in Smirks "PVE Queue Survey" they closed down the Thread after ~2h ... not sure why, what's a 2h Survey worth ... sorry, felt like "they" don't want to hear our (mostly negative) "Feedback" ...
Patch Notes : Resolved an Issue, where people would accidently experience Fun.
If one or two people are making crazy sigs that take jabs...well it's one or two people. But when a multitude, or even heading toward a majority start sporting them, shouldn't that be an indication that something is wrong?
But instead, you see it as attacks, rather than asking the rather obvious question of "what can be done to reverse the trend?"
That would seem to be the crux of the whole matter. Nobody here feels they are taken seriously, nobody feels like their input or feedback is recognized, much less valued, so all that's left is to try and create a stir, somehow, someway.
Instead of being an apologist for behaviors that wouldn't be tolerated from a 5 year old, you should read his post again and understand why the sigs don't do anything you claim they do, but adult language explaining what a person likes or doesn't like would be more effective.
Also Argument Ad Populum is a logical fallacy, just because a lot of people do or believe something doesn't make it right.
What should be done to reverse the trend is that the moderators should actually enforce the forum rules and not tolerate the personal attacks on employees and remove those posters, including those using the sig, they obviously are unable to interact in adult society and should be removed from it.
I think its very very sad how many people are arguing that being a-holes is the same thing as constructive adult criticism.
Edit: The thing with the sigs, is it isn't any one sig that's so terrible I cry myself to sleep at night. It's that the abundance and persistence of them is just grating over time. Like I said, they feel like little jabs at the whole dev team for a single comment most of us had nothing to do with. That is wearing, and after a while, makes me not want to subject myself to it anymore.
Nobody has ever said that the signatures are jabs at the entire team.
My personal sig is a jab at the person or persons who decided to make the Delta Quadrant's patrols pay out waaaaay more XP/SP than patrols in the rest of the game.
If that person wasn't you then I'm not sure why you'd even give it a second's thought.
I'm not sure how many times I have to say the same thing, but I really, REALLY don't mind hearing negative comments, criticisms of the game, etc. I really DO mind when those comments and criticisms are not civil or respectful. I don't only want to hear good things, or have my ego stroked. I just want that feedback to be constructive, not bilious.
People keep saying that the forum sigs are a joke, and are meant to affect change. . . but change what? The signatures say nothing of what you want. What they do, is make a cheap jab at the devs. It's clear that you don't like something, but the signatures do nothing to tell me (or anyone) what it is.
You want us to interact like adults? Great! Let's do that. Using our words. In a polite, respectful manner (on BOTH sides).
Making a passive aggressive meme is not helping anything, IMHO.
Edit: The thing with the sigs, is it isn't any one sig that's so terrible I cry myself to sleep at night. It's that the abundance and persistence of them is just grating over time. Like I said, they feel like little jabs at the whole dev team for a single comment most of us had nothing to do with. That is wearing, and after a while, makes me not want to subject myself to it anymore.
Eidt 2: For what it's worth, I'm an ESFP last I checked. . .
Personally I never made this sig about the dev team. It was always directed to the single comment it displayed and the person who said it. And that person also happens to be in charge and as such responsible for what I, and many others, believe to be wrong with the game. It's not directed towards the entire dev team and I believe this is the case for many of the sigs you find here. It's also not the dev team that has repeatedly insulted players, it's the people in charge and as such they have to live with that sarcasm. Nevertheless I understand that it can be hard to separate those motives, especially since you have to guess about them. I have removed my sig and I hope it will start to disappear. Point's been made anyway.
On a side note please be aware that in OP I criticized the community team for their lack of interaction because it's their actual job. Not the developers.
And once again, I have very great respect for you for coming here Taco.
I love STO. I hope the devs are not disheartened, by any comments made.
Its a great game. Nothing in life is perfect and exactly how we all would like to be. But I for one appreciate what the devs have done and I think its awesome how strong and passionate the Star Trek players are.
Thankyou all ��
Consider for a moment that smart people make less money on average than average people do. Why is that? Also consider that there is a LOT of gain to be had in manipulating smart people which means that it only makes sense that there has been more effort put into manipulating smart people than anyone else. Finally, look at the biographies of great minds. Einstein. Tesla. Oppenheimer. These guys were all subjected to grade A manipulation and the greatest minds at some point ended up developing systems or technology that violated all of their core principles or took credit for their work away from them and most of them took years to realize what had happened, if they ever did.
I think smart people are probably as ethical as anyone else if not moreso. I'd be careful assuming someone who designs a high pressure sales system THINKS they're being unethical. I bet they don't. I bet they've been brought around to believe what they're doing is VERY ethical.
It wouldn't be surprising to find out about the money thing. Personally I'm not greedy, if I'm happy at what I do, I'm happy and don't need money to make me happy. I don't ask for more money, I just earn it if I want more, I'd never TRIBBLE anyone over to get ahead.
Some of what you say somewhat implies that INTJ people are pretty gullible, and while I completely am socially, I tend to call people out on these half baked attempts to convince me to do things. Just like most situation, its easy to see all the angles, so I wouldn't accept it, maybe some would, I don't know; my right and wrong is pretty set in stone though. Of course its impossible to see what we can't see, so maybe I've been manipulated.
As someone who runs a business, I have a lot of customers that have been here a long time, they are happy, they tell me they are happy without me asking, I have few complaints on our fees, our customer loss rate is much less than our gain rate. I hear complaints on competition, I get a lot of referrals, this business is in a different state than it was 12 years ago. I don't believe I've been manipulated to do what others want, I get there is always compromises, because I'd totally give everything away for free if I could, but we (most of the time) just do it better, and when we don't, we'll admit it, try to make up for it, but can't always.
A judgementon on people in a situation nobody here really knows about would be wrong. Nobody knows what any single dev is told, so you can blame management and only management. Don't blame the dev making the denonators or the one making the explosives, management coordinated it and put it into action.
I'm not sure how many times I have to say the same thing, but I really, REALLY don't mind hearing negative comments, criticisms of the game, etc. I really DO mind when those comments and criticisms are not civil or respectful. I don't only want to hear good things, or have my ego stroked. I just want that feedback to be constructive, not bilious.
People keep saying that the forum sigs are a joke, and are meant to affect change. . . but change what? The signatures say nothing of what you want. What they do, is make a cheap jab at the devs. It's clear that you don't like something, but the signatures do nothing to tell me (or anyone) what it is.
You want us to interact like adults? Great! Let's do that. Using our words. In a polite, respectful manner (on BOTH sides).
Making a passive aggressive meme is not helping anything, IMHO.
Edit: The thing with the sigs, is it isn't any one sig that's so terrible I cry myself to sleep at night. It's that the abundance and persistence of them is just grating over time. Like I said, they feel like little jabs at the whole dev team for a single comment most of us had nothing to do with. That is wearing, and after a while, makes me not want to subject myself to it anymore.
I can understand that, Taco. If you want constructive criticism we should post it, I don't think that is at all in question.
The problem I think that a lot of people have now, is that anytime we seemingly DO have posts that are well thought-out and constructive, maybe even have one of you devs post on it...nothing ever comes from it. No matter how useful it might be, heck, maybe you even could do whatever the suggestion is, but nothing happens.
I've heard from devs that anything that is being put in now basically started at least 6 months ago or more on average in the game. So anything we suggest now (like changes to the Winter Event for example) would only be applied months from now if it happens. Which is also fine.
The larger issue is that people have felt ignored. When people feel ignored for long periods of time, they tend to get mad eventually. They feel wronged.
There are plenty of entirely negative posts, in the past and now. But there's also a feeling of 'it doesn't matter what I say, because they don't listen at all'. Obviously to expect all of you to reply, comment, and say something on every single thread is just unrealistic and silly. But if somebody is here to post that is a dev, generally just a single post can really help a thread.
As for the signatures...That's kind of like a civil protest in some ways. The line 'Delta Rising is the best expansion...' is the rallying cry, and the signatures are the 'picket signs'. It's a unifying force for those who feel dissatisfied with the game since DR hit. It isn't a general attack at all devs (or rather I don't think it is meant to seem that way), but a good summation of how those people are feeling about the game anymore, especially due to the original context.
Let's give an example to compare:
Say Cryptic or PWE enact a new company policy, Taco. This policy cuts the pay in HALF for ALL normal devs in all Cryptic games, including yourself. Pretending for the moment you couldn't take them to court (just for the sake of the analogy), you would either outright quit your job, or go on strike with the other devs of CO, STO, and Neverwinter.
You might make signs, stand outside the Cryptic offices, and do other normal 'strike' things (like having a Lifetime movie made on it, with a tacked-on romantic interest subplot). Eventually anyone inside would start to get rather sick of constantly hearing 'Hell no, we won't go' or whatever equivalent of that you might make. There might even be some hostility between anyone inside still working (no matter who they were, be they a higher up or a more 'normal' employee), and those trying to hopefully change things.
Now, what about those in charge of Cryptic or PWE? If they didn't change things, would you continue to protest forever, in either more 'civil' ways or getting mad, hurling insults constantly, etc? Nothing ever violent here, nothing that you could be 'arrested' for, but not playing as 'nice' though either.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
I don't like how devs believe this game if viable without exploration.
I don't like crafting involving dil, or necessary in-game items at all. Should have been "fluffier"
I don't like that you changed the queues, could have just added one really hard one and left all esle alone.
I don't like that I cannot casually pvp because I'd need too many consoles, duty officers, lock box traits etc.
I don't think your pricing is reasonable for pixel-goods.
I want you to brain-storm some ideas of things to do on all these pretty maps instead of just interact with banks and mail and exchange.
A store should never have been the highlight of completing a fleet holding.
I want you to think about activities captains can engage in besides killing, they exist.
Just like you all are talking about types, I'm an INFJ btw, our captains could make contacts and get missions based on their personalities.
If you need help with these things, I want you to hire.
I want you to let go of the notion ships are everything.
I want somebody to apologize for calling me a cheater for doing what made the absolute most amount of sense to do, was not hidden nor forbidden. Yes, still angry over Chart the B'Tran years later.
I want you to incorporate protection from leeching in the construction of your battlezones.
but adult language explaining what a person likes or doesn't like would be more effective.
People have been trying the "adult language" part for 5 years. What sort of effect has it had? Suggestions are ignored. Bug reports are ignored. Criticisms are ignored. Feedback and input is ignored.
So, now, because the Devs feel like they are being attacked, they want us to revert to civilized discussion, which in the history of this game and these forums, has had no effect?
Also Argument Ad Populum is a logical fallacy, just because a lot of people do or believe something doesn't make it right.
Maybe, but when all other avenues fail to get a point across, all that is left is to try and get the point across. Perhaps latching on to the lies and the blanket speak on behalf of all the players, was the wrong course. What would you suggest?
What should be done to reverse the trend is that the moderators should actually enforce the forum rules and not tolerate the personal attacks on employees and remove those posters, including those using the sig, they obviously are unable to interact in adult society and should be removed from it.
I think its very very sad how many people are arguing that being a-holes is the same thing as constructive adult criticism.
Shutting down dissent. Yep, that last vestiges of...ah well never mind. :rolleyes:
"You shoot him, I shoot you, I leave both your bodies here and go out for a late night snack.
I'm thinking maybe pancakes." ~ John Casey
Nobody has ever said that the signatures are jabs at the entire team.
My personal sig is a jab at the person or persons who decided to make the Delta Quadrant's patrols pay out waaaaay more XP/SP than patrols in the rest of the game.
If that person wasn't you then I'm not sure why you'd even give it a second's thought.
The signature don't say any of that.
THe signature is easily interpreted as saying that Delta Rising sucks, a project the entire STO Cryptic team worked on.
It tells every Cryptic member that if he is not very, very careful, the next time it could be a sentence made by him in such a signature.
It still doesn't say what is wrong.
When that sentence quoted in the signature was made, it was made in the context of a lot of other things. That allowed seeing it in that context and not overinterpreting it in any manner.
The signature itself however - they have no context. They are just everywhere.
---
I suppose I should make my own "positive example critique" signature. 2 or 3 things I would like to improve in STO. That's it.
Something like
"Delta Rising: Make Upgrading on Alts easier. Make gaining Specializations on Alts easier. Adjust Advanced Difficulty Queued Mission to be easier achievable."
If everoyne did something like that, it will probably be not offensive at all and instead a constant reminder of your constructive feedback.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
The forum: The forsaken gutter ... So man up, get your act together, and face us*. This will earn you much more respect than just lying low. Besides:
*rofl.....as if writing news would even qualify as such......ridiculous attitude
lol. In ways, many forum posters are in the equivilant of an abusive domestic relationship with the devs, repeatedly dishing out verbal and emotional abuse, because they've taken it for so long and have repeatedly covered for your bad behavior. They've made excuses for you by brushing it off, and suggesting that the abuse is just because you're "passionate". In so doing, they have validated this behavior. When they've presumably, finally had enough of the abuse and have the good sense to move on, you'll say and do anything in your power to lure them back for more, partially because the lack of perceived control you have over them in their absence diminishes, and that change for abusers is scary.
The forums are a gutter alright, but not because the devs aren't pandering to you this week. You're entitled to provide calm, rationale and reasonable feedback in exchange for your money. You're also entitled to take your business elsewhere.
THe signature is easily interpreted as saying that Delta Rising sucks, a project the entire Cryptic team worked on.
It tells every Cryptic member that if he is not very, very careful, the next time it could be a sentence made by him in such a signature.
It still doesn't say what is wrong.
When that sentence quoted in the signature was made, it was made in the context of a lot of other things. That allowed seeing it in that context and not overinterpreting it in any manner.
The signature itself however - they have no context. They are just everywhere.
---
I suppose I should make my own "positive example critique" signature. 2 or 3 things I would like to improve in STO. That's it.
Something like
"Delta Rising: Make Upgrading on Alts easier. Make gaining Specializations on Alts easier. Adjust Advanced Difficulty Queued Mission to be easier achievable."
If everoyne did something like that, it will probably be not offensive at all.
You haven't actually looked at my signature have you?
That's actually kind of the idea with my sig...one click to get to a full review with critiques, compliments, and action item suggestions.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
I did a quick read through of the thread to get the points and concerns and to be honest...I can see why the Devs and Community Managers do not like to come on here very often to address the concerns of the player base that visits. I being one of those players and I have nothing but sympathy.
It is not just one negative comment, one snarky signature banner, or anything like that...it is the whole build up of it all over the time frame.
Some of you are unhappy with the direction STO is going. They get that. What they don't want is you blabbing about rage quitting or about STO's state of affairs.
What they want is to know WHY you are unhappy in detailed statements so that maybe they can take it to the people in charge and show what is up and what needs to be fixed.
The sad part of that is...some of you seem very much bent on whining and complaining cause if they fix something so that you end up happy with it, you have to find a reason to complain.
Some of you even complain about things BEFORE they are implemented even without the details of why or how they will be. I'm waiting to see on this New BOff Training Manuals before I decide anything. The real bonus will be if we can buy manuals for skills we can't train in for our class.
I love how the Crafting system works though for the most part. Makes it more of a challenge though I would love to see the level requirement for accessing it lowered to where even Lieutenants can make use of it rather than waiting and grinding through crafting skill to hit the tiers the players are at. I also love now how even many blues and purple items are Account Bound rather than the old Character bound when I craft them. It means I can recycle the items onto new characters.
BOffs themselves? I hope Cryptic sooner or later increases the starting slot size from four to six so people can pick up BOffs earlier on as rewards for getting to a level or from the C-store without having to buy slots or drop a BOff they like. Also make it so Level 10 has an increase of +1 BOff slot too like the other levels after that.
The rewards for the first 20 missions of the Federation still needs tweaking as far as equipment rewards.
These are my complaints but I still come to play this game because I can see how much work the Devs put in and how much Smirk tries to engage us (when he can or wants too depending on how the rest of us act).
So yeah, if you want to complain about the Devs or Community Managers not doing their job. Think about what it looks like from their end day in and out dealing with the multitudes of people who seek reasons to complain and whine over the smallest details in this game.
The larger issue is that people have felt ignored. When people feel ignored for long periods of time, they tend to get mad eventually. They feel wronged.
This.
What is going on with the advanced/elite queues? Anything? There was a single thread, a few comments on a podcast, and that is it. They are the most important thing to me about STO and nothing is being said about them. I have read thread after thread after thread discussing the situation, offering solutions, debating if solutions are even needed, and nothing official. Not even a 'we are actively discussing it'. For all I know it is not even viewed as a problem.
The last time we had any observable effect as a community on the game was the rollback of the rollback on the 17x faster exploit debacle. And that was primarily because of just how persistent and loud a small group became.
The forum community constantly attacks itself. It is also consistently insulted by other communities, podcasts, and even developer comments in other areas being labeled as a cesspool of vitriol devoid of anything useful. After awhile it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy so to speak.
Some of you are unhappy with the direction STO is going. They get that. What they don't want is you blabbing about rage quitting or about STO's state of affairs.
What they want is to know WHY you are unhappy in detailed statements so that maybe they can take it to the people in charge and show what is up and what needs to be fixed.
I'm not sure if the people complaing about this point don't get it or are acting intentionally dull.
Have they missed the maybe 100+ threads that were detailed and well thought out on the subject? Have they missed that they've been ignored and there isn't even the slightlest acknowledgement of any issue at all? If you look at the new Boff system you'd be hard pressed not to believe the devs think everything is perfectly fine.
So how much more civil, rational, detailed and intelligent posts does the community need to post before it satisfies your needs?
They can handle it but only so much over a time frame. Think about how much is dealt out by us to them over the last five years.
There were / are so many threads on this forum with constructive and helpful feedback but the answer we get is...nothing...and for the most part the total opposite of what we expected / hoped for.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Originally Posted by tacofangs I can develop the game just fine without visiting the forums.
While i am pretty happy with the expansion and the game, i am rather uncertain about the elite difficulty.
I can see that normal/advanced/elite would fit the difficulty setting for most of the game but i have the nagging feeling that creating another level of difficulty for stfs just split the player base a little more and thus makes the issue of empty queues more pronounced.
No the problem is that they took advanced ques that were based around guys flying rear admiral T5 ships with white common mk X gear and as casuals were not generally that interested in the amount of work and time consumed by making NPCs die faster and turning them into something that requires the afore mentioned t interested in the amount of work and time consumed by making NPCs die faster just to not suck.
And what happened here was instead of everyone turning into hardcore DPSers they just didn't want to go to the trouble seeing as ques are now a pain in the backside with very little rewards. Aka what happened the last time they readjusted the ques to get the playerbase to do something.
This of course wasn't helped by not having enough story to get to the new level cap without having to grind, only having new gear available from the upgrade store which needs crafting and getting mats from dead ques or paying cash for to do cheaply, the adding of RNG based gear stores that need to be grinded to use and have some things needing stuff from a lock box meaning real money is needed to use it, with liberal usage of a stick to try to herd the player base into playing more.
So pretty much an expansion based more on pushing systems that are borked as heck, retweaking things solely to get people to use the new systems, and the feeling they added content largely as an afterthought.
There were / are so many threads on this forum with constructive and helpful feedback but the answer we get is...nothing...and for the most part the total opposite of what we expected / hoped for.
Patch Notes : Resolved an Issue, where people would accidently experience Fun.
Comments
Don't know if management was hit but "feeling bad about playerbase ridiculing DR" certainly annoyed someone to ban or mute peeps in what could be considered the nerfing of the forums as a Xmas gift.
Some might say that usually forums are negative. I have been here since beta and have not seen the stuff to this level. Other MMOs or forums are not as negative as this one has been since DR but then again other companies at least do listen to their playerbase.
Some people just gave up but some remained to see where this goes. IMO most have left including from forum posting with no apology nor reason why from PWE...except for the fact if don't like it...dont let the door hit you in the behind...
Its a shame that DR in itself wasn't too bad...but the constant nerfing of XP/Dyson/forum voicing coupled with horrible miscommunication and ill feeling from PWE management left a good product down the drain.
PWE needs to work more on its communication and marketing abilities to retain customers and not insult them.
I'd very much like to see the server stats you're basing this purely anecdotal statement upon. If there are thousands upon thousands of rabid players just itching to toss cash at STO why does Cryptic seen so intent on inhaling every last penny they can even to the point of chasing off diehards like me?
I think it's partly down to how elastic you are. I'd imagine young people give different readings quite a bit and if you exercise different cognitive muscles, you may end up on the order or with multiple types.
I've got a paper I'm playing with on persona and personality. The long and short of it is that I think most of us have a core personality but CAN have many personas that are environmentally adaptive. Like masks or costumes. Over time though, I think people tend to fall into more stable and fewer personas unless they put a lot of work into it. Though you might be able to trigger a particular persona, which is something I'm playing with researching as a function of sales and marketing.
Maybe John Smith the father of three would never buy ZEN for a F2P game. But John Smith the baseball fan might get the itch once you've profiled the guy's personas and John Smith the former college frat boy would spend a ton of money. So you find ways to trigger that latent persona to make a sale.
You've got two you fluctuate between. I'm sure you have more. But in sales, I might try to figure out which side of you spends more and try to trigger that side of you.
This is old hat, I suspect, to car salesman but it's something I think they do more intuitively and it could be turned into a much more developed science. Especially if incorporated into packaging, advertising, stuff with no salesperson.
A lot of bugs are also reported on tribble and afterwards once live on holodeck but they are often ignored for up to a month or longer. Even if a dev says it will be addressed, it shouldn't take months to resolve such bugs and even if it did, your community manager at the very least should be communicating any delays to us, the playerbase. Your community people have been remiss in the what are considered the most basic responsibilities of community managers.
Sadly, the forums have responded in kind. You have lost the respect of a lot of veterans and long-time forumites. You leave a lot to be desired and you have yet to improve in community relations.
There are generally certain induction techniques to get people like you to build systems like that. I see it all the time in business.
One of the big ones is the idea that happiness is measured by spending and any other expression contrary to that is noise. The real message is spending.
That's what several schools of economics preach and is fairly mainstream in business schools. It's s seductive approach for people with your personality type because it feeds into your introversion and enjoyment of measurable solutions.
And if you accept that, you think that someone who complains and spends is really happy and can dismiss their expression of unhappiness. This resolves the cognitive dissonance without you perceiving it as an ethical breach, if I sell you on this premise.
There's a whole handbook of ways to manipulate INTJs and smart people in general.
Consider for a moment that smart people make less money on average than average people do. Why is that? Also consider that there is a LOT of gain to be had in manipulating smart people which means that it only makes sense that there has been more effort put into manipulating smart people than anyone else. Finally, look at the biographies of great minds. Einstein. Tesla. Oppenheimer. These guys were all subjected to grade A manipulation and the greatest minds at some point ended up developing systems or technology that violated all of their core principles or took credit for their work away from them and most of them took years to realize what had happened, if they ever did.
So much of this is embedded into basic social frameworks to maximize the utility of smart people.
I think smart people are probably as ethical as anyone else if not moreso. I'd be careful assuming someone who designs a high pressure sales system THINKS they're being unethical. I bet they don't. I bet they've been brought around to believe what they're doing is VERY ethical.
And I'm not even saying that's the case here. I'd just advise being careful making moral judgments against people whose actions disagree with your values because there's a whole complicated cultural apparatus that could be feeding them an alternative interpretation of the ethics of what they're doing.
I'm not sure how many times I have to say the same thing, but I really, REALLY don't mind hearing negative comments, criticisms of the game, etc. I really DO mind when those comments and criticisms are not civil or respectful. I don't only want to hear good things, or have my ego stroked. I just want that feedback to be constructive, not bilious.
People keep saying that the forum sigs are a joke, and are meant to affect change. . . but change what? The signatures say nothing of what you want. What they do, is make a cheap jab at the devs. It's clear that you don't like something, but the signatures do nothing to tell me (or anyone) what it is.
You want us to interact like adults? Great! Let's do that. Using our words. In a polite, respectful manner (on BOTH sides).
Making a passive aggressive meme is not helping anything, IMHO.
Edit: The thing with the sigs, is it isn't any one sig that's so terrible I cry myself to sleep at night. It's that the abundance and persistence of them is just grating over time. Like I said, they feel like little jabs at the whole dev team for a single comment most of us had nothing to do with. That is wearing, and after a while, makes me not want to subject myself to it anymore.
Eidt 2: For what it's worth, I'm an ESFP last I checked. . .
That would seem to be the point, wouldn't it?
If one or two people are making crazy sigs that take jabs...well it's one or two people. But when a multitude, or even heading toward a majority start sporting them, shouldn't that be an indication that something is wrong?
But instead, you see it as attacks, rather than asking the rather obvious question of "what can be done to reverse the trend?"
That would seem to be the crux of the whole matter. Nobody here feels they are taken seriously, nobody feels like their input or feedback is recognized, much less valued, so all that's left is to try and create a stir, somehow, someway.
"You shoot him, I shoot you, I leave both your bodies here and go out for a late night snack.
I'm thinking maybe pancakes." ~ John Casey
I'd say that seems like a reasonable fit.
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Sweet!
While i am pretty happy with the expansion and the game, i am rather uncertain about the elite difficulty.
I can see that normal/advanced/elite would fit the difficulty setting for most of the game but i have the nagging feeling that creating another level of difficulty for stfs just split the player base a little more and thus makes the issue of empty queues more pronounced.
I would have prefered if the elite difficulty would be more like an optional goal within the advanced difficulty or something similar like that. Then again, a complete rework of all stfs with that in mind would probably be enough work to become an expansion of its own. I still would like some insight into the decision how elite difficulty came to be.
Anyway, i do like the new ships, new weapons and new story missions.
Last time I (and many others) tried that, in Smirks "PVE Queue Survey" they closed down the Thread after ~2h ... not sure why, what's a 2h Survey worth ... sorry, felt like "they" don't want to hear our (mostly negative) "Feedback" ...
Instead of being an apologist for behaviors that wouldn't be tolerated from a 5 year old, you should read his post again and understand why the sigs don't do anything you claim they do, but adult language explaining what a person likes or doesn't like would be more effective.
Also Argument Ad Populum is a logical fallacy, just because a lot of people do or believe something doesn't make it right.
What should be done to reverse the trend is that the moderators should actually enforce the forum rules and not tolerate the personal attacks on employees and remove those posters, including those using the sig, they obviously are unable to interact in adult society and should be removed from it.
I think its very very sad how many people are arguing that being a-holes is the same thing as constructive adult criticism.
Nobody has ever said that the signatures are jabs at the entire team.
My personal sig is a jab at the person or persons who decided to make the Delta Quadrant's patrols pay out waaaaay more XP/SP than patrols in the rest of the game.
If that person wasn't you then I'm not sure why you'd even give it a second's thought.
Free Tibet!
Personally I never made this sig about the dev team. It was always directed to the single comment it displayed and the person who said it. And that person also happens to be in charge and as such responsible for what I, and many others, believe to be wrong with the game. It's not directed towards the entire dev team and I believe this is the case for many of the sigs you find here. It's also not the dev team that has repeatedly insulted players, it's the people in charge and as such they have to live with that sarcasm. Nevertheless I understand that it can be hard to separate those motives, especially since you have to guess about them. I have removed my sig and I hope it will start to disappear. Point's been made anyway.
On a side note please be aware that in OP I criticized the community team for their lack of interaction because it's their actual job. Not the developers.
And once again, I have very great respect for you for coming here Taco.
Its a great game. Nothing in life is perfect and exactly how we all would like to be. But I for one appreciate what the devs have done and I think its awesome how strong and passionate the Star Trek players are.
Thankyou all ��
It wouldn't be surprising to find out about the money thing. Personally I'm not greedy, if I'm happy at what I do, I'm happy and don't need money to make me happy. I don't ask for more money, I just earn it if I want more, I'd never TRIBBLE anyone over to get ahead.
Some of what you say somewhat implies that INTJ people are pretty gullible, and while I completely am socially, I tend to call people out on these half baked attempts to convince me to do things. Just like most situation, its easy to see all the angles, so I wouldn't accept it, maybe some would, I don't know; my right and wrong is pretty set in stone though. Of course its impossible to see what we can't see, so maybe I've been manipulated.
As someone who runs a business, I have a lot of customers that have been here a long time, they are happy, they tell me they are happy without me asking, I have few complaints on our fees, our customer loss rate is much less than our gain rate. I hear complaints on competition, I get a lot of referrals, this business is in a different state than it was 12 years ago. I don't believe I've been manipulated to do what others want, I get there is always compromises, because I'd totally give everything away for free if I could, but we (most of the time) just do it better, and when we don't, we'll admit it, try to make up for it, but can't always.
A judgementon on people in a situation nobody here really knows about would be wrong. Nobody knows what any single dev is told, so you can blame management and only management. Don't blame the dev making the denonators or the one making the explosives, management coordinated it and put it into action.
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I can understand that, Taco. If you want constructive criticism we should post it, I don't think that is at all in question.
The problem I think that a lot of people have now, is that anytime we seemingly DO have posts that are well thought-out and constructive, maybe even have one of you devs post on it...nothing ever comes from it. No matter how useful it might be, heck, maybe you even could do whatever the suggestion is, but nothing happens.
I've heard from devs that anything that is being put in now basically started at least 6 months ago or more on average in the game. So anything we suggest now (like changes to the Winter Event for example) would only be applied months from now if it happens. Which is also fine.
The larger issue is that people have felt ignored. When people feel ignored for long periods of time, they tend to get mad eventually. They feel wronged.
There are plenty of entirely negative posts, in the past and now. But there's also a feeling of 'it doesn't matter what I say, because they don't listen at all'. Obviously to expect all of you to reply, comment, and say something on every single thread is just unrealistic and silly. But if somebody is here to post that is a dev, generally just a single post can really help a thread.
As for the signatures...That's kind of like a civil protest in some ways. The line 'Delta Rising is the best expansion...' is the rallying cry, and the signatures are the 'picket signs'. It's a unifying force for those who feel dissatisfied with the game since DR hit. It isn't a general attack at all devs (or rather I don't think it is meant to seem that way), but a good summation of how those people are feeling about the game anymore, especially due to the original context.
Let's give an example to compare:
Say Cryptic or PWE enact a new company policy, Taco. This policy cuts the pay in HALF for ALL normal devs in all Cryptic games, including yourself. Pretending for the moment you couldn't take them to court (just for the sake of the analogy), you would either outright quit your job, or go on strike with the other devs of CO, STO, and Neverwinter.
You might make signs, stand outside the Cryptic offices, and do other normal 'strike' things (like having a Lifetime movie made on it, with a tacked-on romantic interest subplot). Eventually anyone inside would start to get rather sick of constantly hearing 'Hell no, we won't go' or whatever equivalent of that you might make. There might even be some hostility between anyone inside still working (no matter who they were, be they a higher up or a more 'normal' employee), and those trying to hopefully change things.
Now, what about those in charge of Cryptic or PWE? If they didn't change things, would you continue to protest forever, in either more 'civil' ways or getting mad, hurling insults constantly, etc? Nothing ever violent here, nothing that you could be 'arrested' for, but not playing as 'nice' though either.
Hey! I resent that remark...if I had emotions. :P
I don't like crafting involving dil, or necessary in-game items at all. Should have been "fluffier"
I don't like that you changed the queues, could have just added one really hard one and left all esle alone.
I don't like that I cannot casually pvp because I'd need too many consoles, duty officers, lock box traits etc.
I don't think your pricing is reasonable for pixel-goods.
I want you to brain-storm some ideas of things to do on all these pretty maps instead of just interact with banks and mail and exchange.
A store should never have been the highlight of completing a fleet holding.
I want you to think about activities captains can engage in besides killing, they exist.
Just like you all are talking about types, I'm an INFJ btw, our captains could make contacts and get missions based on their personalities.
If you need help with these things, I want you to hire.
I want you to let go of the notion ships are everything.
I want somebody to apologize for calling me a cheater for doing what made the absolute most amount of sense to do, was not hidden nor forbidden. Yes, still angry over Chart the B'Tran years later.
I want you to incorporate protection from leeching in the construction of your battlezones.
I want to play your game, right now I do not.
Thanks for asking!
People have been trying the "adult language" part for 5 years. What sort of effect has it had? Suggestions are ignored. Bug reports are ignored. Criticisms are ignored. Feedback and input is ignored.
So, now, because the Devs feel like they are being attacked, they want us to revert to civilized discussion, which in the history of this game and these forums, has had no effect?
Maybe, but when all other avenues fail to get a point across, all that is left is to try and get the point across. Perhaps latching on to the lies and the blanket speak on behalf of all the players, was the wrong course. What would you suggest?
Shutting down dissent. Yep, that last vestiges of...ah well never mind. :rolleyes:
"You shoot him, I shoot you, I leave both your bodies here and go out for a late night snack.
I'm thinking maybe pancakes." ~ John Casey
When that sentence quoted in the signature was made, it was made in the context of a lot of other things. That allowed seeing it in that context and not overinterpreting it in any manner.
The signature itself however - they have no context. They are just everywhere.
---
I suppose I should make my own "positive example critique" signature. 2 or 3 things I would like to improve in STO. That's it.
Something like
"Delta Rising: Make Upgrading on Alts easier. Make gaining Specializations on Alts easier. Adjust Advanced Difficulty Queued Mission to be easier achievable."
If everoyne did something like that, it will probably be not offensive at all and instead a constant reminder of your constructive feedback.
lol. In ways, many forum posters are in the equivilant of an abusive domestic relationship with the devs, repeatedly dishing out verbal and emotional abuse, because they've taken it for so long and have repeatedly covered for your bad behavior. They've made excuses for you by brushing it off, and suggesting that the abuse is just because you're "passionate". In so doing, they have validated this behavior. When they've presumably, finally had enough of the abuse and have the good sense to move on, you'll say and do anything in your power to lure them back for more, partially because the lack of perceived control you have over them in their absence diminishes, and that change for abusers is scary.
The forums are a gutter alright, but not because the devs aren't pandering to you this week. You're entitled to provide calm, rationale and reasonable feedback in exchange for your money. You're also entitled to take your business elsewhere.
You haven't actually looked at my signature have you?
Free Tibet!
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
It is not just one negative comment, one snarky signature banner, or anything like that...it is the whole build up of it all over the time frame.
Some of you are unhappy with the direction STO is going. They get that. What they don't want is you blabbing about rage quitting or about STO's state of affairs.
What they want is to know WHY you are unhappy in detailed statements so that maybe they can take it to the people in charge and show what is up and what needs to be fixed.
The sad part of that is...some of you seem very much bent on whining and complaining cause if they fix something so that you end up happy with it, you have to find a reason to complain.
Some of you even complain about things BEFORE they are implemented even without the details of why or how they will be. I'm waiting to see on this New BOff Training Manuals before I decide anything. The real bonus will be if we can buy manuals for skills we can't train in for our class.
I love how the Crafting system works though for the most part. Makes it more of a challenge though I would love to see the level requirement for accessing it lowered to where even Lieutenants can make use of it rather than waiting and grinding through crafting skill to hit the tiers the players are at. I also love now how even many blues and purple items are Account Bound rather than the old Character bound when I craft them. It means I can recycle the items onto new characters.
BOffs themselves? I hope Cryptic sooner or later increases the starting slot size from four to six so people can pick up BOffs earlier on as rewards for getting to a level or from the C-store without having to buy slots or drop a BOff they like. Also make it so Level 10 has an increase of +1 BOff slot too like the other levels after that.
The rewards for the first 20 missions of the Federation still needs tweaking as far as equipment rewards.
These are my complaints but I still come to play this game because I can see how much work the Devs put in and how much Smirk tries to engage us (when he can or wants too depending on how the rest of us act).
So yeah, if you want to complain about the Devs or Community Managers not doing their job. Think about what it looks like from their end day in and out dealing with the multitudes of people who seek reasons to complain and whine over the smallest details in this game.
I think you missed the point of what I am saying.
They can handle it but only so much over a time frame. Think about how much is dealt out by us to them over the last five years.
This.
What is going on with the advanced/elite queues? Anything? There was a single thread, a few comments on a podcast, and that is it. They are the most important thing to me about STO and nothing is being said about them. I have read thread after thread after thread discussing the situation, offering solutions, debating if solutions are even needed, and nothing official. Not even a 'we are actively discussing it'. For all I know it is not even viewed as a problem.
The last time we had any observable effect as a community on the game was the rollback of the rollback on the 17x faster exploit debacle. And that was primarily because of just how persistent and loud a small group became.
The forum community constantly attacks itself. It is also consistently insulted by other communities, podcasts, and even developer comments in other areas being labeled as a cesspool of vitriol devoid of anything useful. After awhile it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy so to speak.
I'm not sure if the people complaing about this point don't get it or are acting intentionally dull.
Have they missed the maybe 100+ threads that were detailed and well thought out on the subject? Have they missed that they've been ignored and there isn't even the slightlest acknowledgement of any issue at all? If you look at the new Boff system you'd be hard pressed not to believe the devs think everything is perfectly fine.
So how much more civil, rational, detailed and intelligent posts does the community need to post before it satisfies your needs?
Completed Starbase, Embassy, Mine, Spire and No Win Scenario
Nothing to do anymore.
http://dtfleet.com/
Visit our Youtube channel
There were / are so many threads on this forum with constructive and helpful feedback but the answer we get is...nothing...and for the most part the total opposite of what we expected / hoped for.
No the problem is that they took advanced ques that were based around guys flying rear admiral T5 ships with white common mk X gear and as casuals were not generally that interested in the amount of work and time consumed by making NPCs die faster and turning them into something that requires the afore mentioned t interested in the amount of work and time consumed by making NPCs die faster just to not suck.
And what happened here was instead of everyone turning into hardcore DPSers they just didn't want to go to the trouble seeing as ques are now a pain in the backside with very little rewards. Aka what happened the last time they readjusted the ques to get the playerbase to do something.
This of course wasn't helped by not having enough story to get to the new level cap without having to grind, only having new gear available from the upgrade store which needs crafting and getting mats from dead ques or paying cash for to do cheaply, the adding of RNG based gear stores that need to be grinded to use and have some things needing stuff from a lock box meaning real money is needed to use it, with liberal usage of a stick to try to herd the player base into playing more.
So pretty much an expansion based more on pushing systems that are borked as heck, retweaking things solely to get people to use the new systems, and the feeling they added content largely as an afterthought.
Yeah that's what I said earlier, there was a single Survery, which was shut down after ~2h of mostly negative (but yet constructive) Feedback ...
see :