This is not exactly a new issue .
There are Devs and players who see these forums in a bad light ... , and after 5 years , I doubt that there is room for a fresh start .
As others have said , there are some interesting discussions on the forums and to me it seems that many times ppl are having fun here (even if it's a bit of forum pvp) .
It's also worth to remember that just as like some Devs trow in the good posters in with the bad , we too , often can't differentiate between Dev silence that comes out of shyness , worry of reprisal by us , a genuine dislike for us or company policy (that has been implemented since PW took over) .
In short , silence can (and is) interpreted by us in many different ways , sometimes depending on how we feel at that exact moment , and sometimes depending on how jaded and set in our way of thinking we are about the issue .
So man up, get your act together, and face us*. This will earn you much more respect than just lying low.
And speaking of jaded ... , I myself was highly suspicious when the Devs suddenly started to "communicate" after DR and during Japorigate .
It felt unnatural and sure enough they quickly fell silent just as sure enough there were players who expressed their wish that this is a new era of Dev communication .
What can I say ... , after 5 years , some things (both the hope and the disappointment) act themselfs out here like a badly scripted drama (at times) .
Other times , someone tries to take a fresh approach and makes good conversation .
Yes. Yes it is. I mean, take a step back and read your own post, for starters.
It's aggressive, antagonistic and uncivil. Would you speak like that to someone in the street? Or in a shop? I very much doubt it. And if you did, you'd be arrested for harassment.
This is a valid point.
However, I think it's important to understand that the tone of feedback WOULD be much more civil if it was being heard, acknowledged, etc.
If you're on the line with the phone company or ISP and they put you on indefinite hold, or gave you the run-around with multiple layers of computerized menus and then eventually hung up on you, I think you might lose your cool.
Entering a ticket hasn't been an effective way to get problems resolved, so folks tend to come to the forums to commiserate and occasionally find work-around solutions to their problems.
A first step toward a peace agreement should start with the company. Their PR and marketing people will be battered and bruised for awhile, but eventually things would improve and hostile attitudes would be reduced. (it would be naive to think they'd ever be eliminated)
Honestly, a little more communication would go a long way to calming things down. What's going on reminds me of the state of the Egosoft forums after X Rebirth missed its first release date (it ended up being pushed back two years). Before they went into Valve time they were posting updates and screenshots on a fairly regular basis, but then it dried up. According to CBJ (kinda like Taco, in that he was one of the few devs who posted regularly on the boards), they were too busy, which I get -- the whole studio's maybe two dozen people.
But things got ugly. Not as ugly as they are over here, but they were more civil to begin with so they had further to go. People started speculating that the game had turned vaporware and so forth, and things got progressively uglier until Godwin's Law came into play when some jackass compared the blackout to a TRIBBLE regime. I'm not kidding about that, and factor in that Egosoft is based out of W
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
However, I think it's important to understand that the tone of feedback WOULD be much more civil if it was being heard, acknowledged, etc.
If you're on the line with the phone company or ISP and they put you on indefinite hold, or gave you the run-around with multiple layers of computerized menus and then eventually hung up on you, I think you might lose your cool.
Entering a ticket hasn't been an effective way to get problems resolved, so folks tend to come to the forums to commiserate and occasionally find work-around solutions to their problems.
A first step toward a peace agreement should start with the company. Their PR and marketing people will be battered and bruised for awhile, but eventually things would improve and hostile attitudes would be reduced. (it would be naive to think they'd ever be eliminated)
Sometimes its easier to just sum it up with:
"The squeaky wheel gets the grease"
Unfortunately, while putting tickets in is civil, companies with no morales just ignore them. This is what we have going on, tickets are just ignored now.
If you want something to happen, its often easier to complain endlessly on the forums like a broken record, because otherwise nothing gets done here.
I agree that constructive feedback would be nice, but we've been through that, been ignored, been insulted, then back to ignored. What does anyone reasonable think will happen? Are people going to sit back and just accept that? Some will (CDFs), many left, some rebel. None of this behaviour is shocking, ground breaking or new, other than entertaining, its really not surprising at all; at best its a good lesson for other devs how to NOT handle their game and customers.
Oh I have no illusions that the whales will wake up - I guess in the end they wouldn't be whales if they did.
And maybe there'd be no game.
Developers no longer posting is the best and most telling metric that your posting does indeed matter.
Another recent example would be the time gecko had a meltdown with new slots he had added for crafting and people were flaming the doff UI instead of complimenting his effort.
Or go read tacofang's post about them being humanbeings that wants to be complimented.
Not to mention their Q&A team, all 6 of them, saying that they get their information from the forums - that they litterly couldn't do their job if it weren't for the players and the forums...
When content is weak, as with the case of DR they know it probably better than the players.
Posting about it is just reminding them that we know - they already know they copy-pasted no surprises there.
I'll say it again, in the hopes that some might actually hear and take it to heart:
We here on the forums - those invested enough to read, and even more those who bother to post, let alone post a lot - are a tiny, tiny minority of those who play. And because of that strong investment, we're also, as a group, extremely prone to melodrama and irrational behavior.
There's a few lines that apply to all game forums, but especially this one, given the franchise's long-established fondness for Shakespeare: "It is a tale told by an idiot; full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."
Of course they're going to ignore what we say. I mean, Cryptic might listen - if they're not busy with something more important, which is pretty much all the time - but they're not in charge. Perfect World is. And Perfect World is never going to listen to us. They're going to look at their numbers and metrics - logins per day, length of logins, and most of all, the money. And as long as we're being outspent, by orders of magnitude - that means "hundreds or thousands" for the non-math types - by that vast non-reading, non-posting majority, that is who they are going to listen to. It makes no logical sense, no business sense, to do otherwise.
The sad fact is that our emotional investment, bright though it burns here, is a flickering spark next to the financial investment of everyone else. Even those who speak of having spent hundreds of dollars on this game over the years - that might run the servers and pay the salaries and license fees for a whole day, or make up a notable fraction (not the majority) of how much PWE makes off all those players per hour. Maybe. I don't have the actual numbers in front of me. But you'd better believe Cryptic and PWE do.
You are special, you are unique, and you are passionate. You are also insignificant. Get used to it.
prove that the posters here are a tiny minority...until then you're just pullng BS out of where BS usually comes from.
insignificant? really? then why would cryptic go to such lengths to lock threads from an insignificant minority eh? you're worse than they are.
blame the gamers notthe developers, nice tactic, too bad it flies against any sort of common sense. cryptic/pwe are a BUSINESS. STO among other games are their PRODUCT that they are selling to CONSUMERS. which is US. if they offer a bad PRODUCT...if any business offers a BAD PRODUCT consumers have a right to iterate their grievances with that PRODUCT. especially if they invested in that PRODUCT.
get the picture or do i have to make a pop up book for you?
'oh my...you're so hostile'
yeah i am, i detest muddy thinking, excuses, and made up BS. i detest game companies/devs getting a free pass provided by other players as if they're somehow immune to any other common sense rules of business and consumer relations. you couldn't run any business on the street the way cryptic/pwe runs sto.
what if your isp handled things the way cryptic/pwe does? mull that over for a bit.
Dr. Patricia Tanis ~ "Bacon is for sycophants and products of incest."
Donate Brains, zombies in Washington DC are starving.
For a Dev to manage and use a forum is a easy task
they could outline their project indicate a time frame and ask for suggestions on how to improve the project
anyone out of line with their posts would be dealt with and the community would support the Dev in such a atmosphere
Trolls would be quickly identified and removed from the forum and possibly the game as well this isn't that hard of a task
It would be work to start with but over a short period of time it would pay off and the number of trolls would be quite small
For starters if I owned this game I wouldn't want anyone on my forum that wasn't supporting the game that didn't support the game with a investment history in the game itself
people that have invested there cash in the game would be more positive for the health of the game than free players would be
That alone would eliminate a huge amount of the trolls
And if your account you had invested cash in was linked to your forum personality you will be much more diplomatic with your responses than some free account where you risk nothing and can spout any garbage you wish to with no risk to yourself
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
STO-forum is the sphincter of the game community. I come here to check the dev tracker, read the release notes, and then mostly browse general discussion to see what people who are bad at the game are being bad at this week.
That is funny. Not sure if this is sarcasm. I just looked at the Dev Tracker. The only time a dev goes on the forum is to announce the servers are down....
I have recently learned that INTJs are about 8x as prevalent among game designers as they are in the general population and as a social consequence, many game studios end up filtering out all their non-INTJ employees by supporting an INTJ way of doing business.
Now... What I have said for awhile now. Nobody needs to be fired. The Cryptic platform is designed to continuously develop new games.
Your INTJ style managers should be put to good use on games that are still being designed.
Live games should not be managed by INTJs unless they are extremely self-aware and self-correct for their innate tendencies. A live game is an entertainment service built on good will, not a systems project. A good idea is insufficient. Spin and damage control are not coats of paint to be applied on at the end or tertiary products but should be integral to product design from the moment beta ends, even if it interferes with efficiency or technical excellence in systems design.
Ideal candidates for leadership on a live game?
ESTP: The Promoter
ENTP: The Inventor
Well, apparently I'm an ESFJ...
Whoops.. the second time I was ESFP... ( I just read the whole thing... I really am a ESFP :eek:)
And yes, I was more honest with myself the second time I did it.
:cool:
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
@stoleviathan99
who ever runs the show is NOT FRAKKING INTJ. completely missing the J part in every decision. there is no thinking decisions through, there is no thinking mechanics changes through, something any intj WOULD DO. i do it ffs and i don't even develop this game. there is no acceptance of responsibility, there is no possibility that they are ever wrong, the censor the forums ffs...how is any of that intj?
The J is there. It's just not focused on what you're focused on. I THINK it's INTJ focused on optimizing cashflow and making payroll/financial targets or bonus conditions or tying in with game systems on a whiteboard that may or may not make it live.
In any case, I think a misconception with Myers-Briggs is that it by necessity tells what people are good at. I think it's better at telling what strategies they employ.
Yes, people with INTJ have higher IQs but is that because INTJ thinking is smarter... Or because people with higher IQs tend to employ INTJ thinking strategies as a result of their IQs? I am not convinced that the causality of aptitude is established with any of the types. I'm also not saying Cryptic guys are dumb. But I think INTJs tend to think they are more likely to be right not because they are right more often. But because people who are more likely to be technically right are INTJs.
In this case, we don't know the victory conditions for the tasks they're given. The things you see as broken may be insignificant to their objectives.
And, again, I think INTJ doesn't mean that someone is always right or ever right. It just means that they think they are and maybe that they technically are based on their own criteria for themselves, which may or may not have anything to do with your criteria for them.
The more I dug, the more I found strong evidence of a huge INTJ over-representation in game design AND MMO design. And I am not going to put words in anyone's mouth specifically. But I know a handful of Cryptic employees current and former who have all cited INTJ as their type. And the only one I've ever seen identify as another type was Daniel Stahl, who I *THINK* mentioned it here. (ENFP, I think?)
It isn't just flaming that can be painful to endure. Sometimes even critic I would not call "flaming" in the strict sense is not something I'd want to expose myself on a regular basis - especially not if I can't afford to tell people my real opinion of their attitude.
It is not always as blatant as someone yelling and ranting and cursing at us. It can be much more subtle, and much more subversive than that.
As an example, it is difficult to convince other devs that coming here to talk with players is a good idea when every thread is filled with people with signatures throwing a single 3 month old comment back into our collective faces.
Oh, Hai! Here I am, communicating with you.
:::monkey dance:::
Oh right, I don't count . . .
It is not always as blatant as someone yelling and ranting and cursing at us. It can be much more subtle, and much more subversive than that.
As an example, it is difficult to convince other devs that coming here to talk with players is a good idea when every thread is filled with people with signatures throwing a single 3 month old comment back into our collective faces.
Every time I read your posts I get hungry...
See you are appreciated.
And yes I'm very subversive, but not very subtle.
BTW: My sig is meant to be funny and not taken serious at all.
ADDENDUM:
I've now created a sig that truly expresses what I feel is more appropriate... still not very subtle though.
:cool:
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
Oh, Hai! Here I am, communicating with you.
:::monkey dance:::
Oh right, I don't count . . .
It is not always as blatant as someone yelling and ranting and cursing at us. It can be much more subtle, and much more subversive than that.
As an example, it is difficult to convince other devs that coming here to talk with players is a good idea when every thread is filled with people with signatures throwing a single 3 month old comment back into our collective faces.
Of course, to play the devil's advocate here - if there was more stuff that the developers said to us, maybe players had a harder time to pick their one favourite quote.
Or at least they wouldn't stick to it for 3 months, because they are fickle beasts and there is a new one that works much better.
OKay, I am not sure if you can win this one.
I watched a presentation on dealing with your online community, and one advice was just - if a particular developer of your team is attacked, another developer needs to come out and make it clear that this is not acceptable behaviour.
But that probably requires multiple devs to be active somewhat regularly, otherwise it would only be always tacofangs to the rescue, and that would get old fast. For you and the players.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
BTW: My sig is meant to be funny and not taken serious at all.
It may be intended as comedy, but that's not how it comes across over here. On my end of the screen, it makes me wary of every word I type, knowing that anything I say could be held against me in a court of law.
It may be intended as comedy, but that's not how it comes across over here. On my end of the screen, it makes me wary of every word I type, knowing that anything I say could be held against me in a court of law.
Well, sorry, but what you people can expect? Many players (we dont know how many, beacose we dont have the numbers) feel that DR is a disaster a dev tell us that is the best expancion ever and that we love it!. We were insulted when your boss call us all chaters and exploiters, Geko keeps disrespecting players and so on.
Then, forum comunication officers are MIA, they not even post the news on the forums..
For a Dev to manage and use a forum is a easy task
they could outline their project indicate a time frame and ask for suggestions on how to improve the project
anyone out of line with their posts would be dealt with and the community would support the Dev in such a atmosphere
Trolls would be quickly identified and removed from the forum and possibly the game as well this isn't that hard of a task
It would be work to start with but over a short period of time it would pay off and the number of trolls would be quite small
For starters if I owned this game I wouldn't want anyone on my forum that wasn't supporting the game that didn't support the game with a investment history in the game itself
people that have invested there cash in the game would be more positive for the health of the game than free players would be
That alone would eliminate a huge amount of the trolls
And if your account you had invested cash in was linked to your forum personality you will be much more diplomatic with your responses than some free account where you risk nothing and can spout any garbage you wish to with no risk to yourself
You'd censor the people who are playing for free in a FREE-TO-PLAY game?
You'd only support paying people in a a FREE-TO-PLAY game?
I see a huge number of negative postings every day from lifers, and subscribers. I was a subscriber (until DR came along) and personally invested hundreds into this game. I still like the game, but I also feel a lot of decisions absolutely stink, and that this company has horrible public relations and poor customer support. I guess since I used my wallet to make my feeling known means that I should receive no support and no voice in the forums.
That wouldn't seem to be a good formula to win back support from the established, yet disgruntled customers. Is this how they do it in your occupation?
It may be intended as comedy, but that's not how it comes across over here. On my end of the screen, it makes me wary of every word I type, knowing that anything I say could be held against me in a court of law.
Well then...
I apologize and will attempt in the future to be more sensitive to how it comes across...
Just for the record... I've never personally felt that any of the Dev's had attacked me personally, nor have any of my posts ever been a serious attack on any of them.
It does seem though, as if certain ones could take a moment to mind-check their thoughts before blurting them out.
Especially when putting themselves in the spotlight to represent the company.
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
I used to Mod at another board where there was a similar and distinct "staff VS membership" culture that plagued it. I didn't post there much for the same reason myself.
Which is a shame because some of us are perfectly reasonable and would appreciate the opportunity for more interaction and communication with the Devs.
Which is a shame because some of us are perfectly reasonable and would appreciate the opportunity for more interaction and communication with the Devs.
The problem is, there are quite a few negative nancies and their screams and shouts of how everything is bad drowns out anything that might even resemble a meaningful discussion.
Well, I wont apologize.. not untill they apologize to US when they call us chaters and exploiters after the Tau Dewa fiasco.
They open the door for this madness, now they play victim?
yes because the quote taken out of context is utterly totally accurate and no one exaggerates and lies on the internet lol
If I were an employee for this company I would refuse to post on the forums unless they like made it a part of my job description and gave me a free jelly doughnut and coffee and dedicated posting time.. and possibly stocked a liquor cabinet and gave me a key to it
Its actually amazing how people can completely twist something until its no longer recognizable and then call it "truth".
Its also equally amazing at how any helpful information gets equally screwed up and rumours start inside the game that are opposite to what actually the truth is.
Some of it makes me litterally laugh out loud but other stuff leave me shaking my head because no one with a normal level of intelligence should be behaving this way. And there is not one dev who has not been polite when posting not one. I have even read the original post about so called "not listening to the forums" lol....WoW that one was twisted beyond belief.
Well, I wont apologize.. not untill they apologize to US when they call us chaters and exploiters after the Tau Dewa fiasco.
They open the door for this madness, now they play victim?
Everybody can be a victim, if they let themselves be.
There's no lack of "blame" on either side.
Sometimes one just has to let it go and move on.
Especially when an "Us vs Them" mentality startsd to set in.
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
The problem is, there are quite a few negative nancies and their screams and shouts of how everything is bad drowns out anything that might even resemble a meaningful discussion.
It's really not all that difficult to develop a filter to those kind of folks.
It's pretty obvious after the first or second sentence just what type of post it will be.
I tend to either stop reading or continue on to see just how much of a jerk they are willing to make of themselves.
Depends on whether or not I'm bored.
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
Everybody can be a victim, if they let themselves be.
There's no lack of "blame" on either side.
Sometimes one just has to let it go and move on.
Especially when an "Uu vs Them" mentality startsd to set in.
Sorry, I understend that, but they open this pandora box and they dont seem that intesting on close in it. And even worst, they think they did not do anything wrong in all this madness.
Oh, Hai! Here I am, communicating with you.
:::monkey dance:::
Oh right, I don't count . . .
It is not always as blatant as someone yelling and ranting and cursing at us. It can be much more subtle, and much more subversive than that.
As an example, it is difficult to convince other devs that coming here to talk with players is a good idea when every thread is filled with people with signatures throwing a single 3 month old comment back into our collective faces.
taco...dammit, it isn't YOU. if you ran pwe or cryptic...different story, you don't though do you? you're not the secret controller of that empire are you? i realize you get flak for being so talkative that makes you an easy target, some people just see 'oh hey, he works for cryptic...get'em boys!'
none of what i say is aimed at you, and i can only speak for myself in that regard. you do a fantastic jobs with the tools at your disposal. are pretty forthcoming with information related to what you do. and all in all a lot more open than any other cryptics i see on these forums.
and from what i've seen of your posts...you actually respond to the players as if they're human with intelligence.
but unless you are the man behind the scenes pulling the strings you aren't responsible...not even by association for policy.
Dr. Patricia Tanis ~ "Bacon is for sycophants and products of incest."
Donate Brains, zombies in Washington DC are starving.
Well, sorry, but what you people can expect? Many players (we dont know how many, beacose we dont have the numbers) feel that DR is a disaster a dev tell us that is the best expancion ever and that we love it!.
Let's assume for a moment that Cryptic has actually no evidence on their side that would have lead someone on their team to make that statement....
How about you just agree to disagree. "No, I don't like Delta Rising, and I feel not included in that statement. These are the reasons why."
Imagine suddenly the counter situation -Cryptic actually has some data you have no access to that suggests that Delta Rising was well received by players, based on continued sales, play time and what not - should they now treat you as a liar and stop listening to you because you were wrong? Should all the Cryptic employees add a signature of a revenue report where you clearly see the sales going up and "But the game is dying - eltatus".
For a moment, just try to be a bit sympathetic?
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
yes because the quote taken out of context is utterly totally accurate and no one exaggerates and lies on the internet lol
If I were an employee for this company I would refuse to post on the forums unless they like made it a part of my job description and gave me a free jelly doughnut and coffee and dedicated posting time.. and possibly stocked a liquor cabinet and gave me a key to it
Its actually amazing how people can completely twist something until its no longer recognizable and then call it "truth".
Its also equally amazing at how any helpful information gets equally screwed up and rumours start inside the game that are opposite to what actually the truth is.
Some of it makes me litterally laugh out loud but other stuff leave me shaking my head because no one with a normal level of intelligence should be behaving this way. And there is not one dev who has not been polite when posting not one. I have even read the original post about so called "not listening to the forums" lol....WoW that one was twisted beyond belief.
To be fair, it was pretty obvious that "we the players" were being held solely accountable for the "Tau Dewa" fiasco.
It would not have hurt for the gentleman in question to have put a bit of an apology in the retraction statement.
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
taco...dammit, it isn't YOU. if you ran pwe or cryptic...different story, you don't though do you? you're not the secret controller of that empire are you? i realize you get flak for being so talkative that makes you an easy target, some people just see 'oh hey, he works for cryptic...get'em boys!'
none of what i say is aimed at you, and i can only speak for myself in that regard. you do a fantastic jobs with the tools at your disposal. are pretty forthcoming with information related to what you do. and all in all a lot more open than any other cryptics i see on these forums.
and from what i've seen of your posts...you actually respond to the players as if they're human with intelligence.
but unless you are the man behind the scenes pulling the strings you aren't responsible...not even by association for policy.
Agree. Beacose he knows how to talk to players with out disrespect them like Geko or Deangelo.
i am not a DEV and i find hard to come to any game forum and read the trash people post in them.
been roving games for years and in every forum i go in a read is always the same trash. when i enter A game forum they are talking how much B game is better than A game, and when i go into B game they are saying how much A game is better.
people complain that the devs are not listening to them, but the true is that what they want is to Dev to say yes to whatever they want. if the Devs didnt implemented what ever you wanted, is not that they didnt listen, it means they said No.
the produc is what it is, you have never see people protest outside of a macdonalds cos they want to buy woppers. if they want wopper they go to a burged king.
now someone suggested a new subforum for people whit manners, i would like to see that, but instead of anyone been able to enter and then be baned if they dont behave, the devs should be the ones granting access to it if they find a polite player in the regular one. ( as a way to filter out the trash topics)
in conclusion, all those banners and signature with 1 line quotes are disgusting, and says lot about your characters.
Comments
This is not exactly a new issue .
There are Devs and players who see these forums in a bad light ... , and after 5 years , I doubt that there is room for a fresh start .
As others have said , there are some interesting discussions on the forums and to me it seems that many times ppl are having fun here (even if it's a bit of forum pvp) .
It's also worth to remember that just as like some Devs trow in the good posters in with the bad , we too , often can't differentiate between Dev silence that comes out of shyness , worry of reprisal by us , a genuine dislike for us or company policy (that has been implemented since PW took over) .
In short , silence can (and is) interpreted by us in many different ways , sometimes depending on how we feel at that exact moment , and sometimes depending on how jaded and set in our way of thinking we are about the issue .
And speaking of jaded ... , I myself was highly suspicious when the Devs suddenly started to "communicate" after DR and during Japorigate .
It felt unnatural and sure enough they quickly fell silent just as sure enough there were players who expressed their wish that this is a new era of Dev communication .
What can I say ... , after 5 years , some things (both the hope and the disappointment) act themselfs out here like a badly scripted drama (at times) .
Other times , someone tries to take a fresh approach and makes good conversation .
This is a valid point.
However, I think it's important to understand that the tone of feedback WOULD be much more civil if it was being heard, acknowledged, etc.
If you're on the line with the phone company or ISP and they put you on indefinite hold, or gave you the run-around with multiple layers of computerized menus and then eventually hung up on you, I think you might lose your cool.
Entering a ticket hasn't been an effective way to get problems resolved, so folks tend to come to the forums to commiserate and occasionally find work-around solutions to their problems.
A first step toward a peace agreement should start with the company. Their PR and marketing people will be battered and bruised for awhile, but eventually things would improve and hostile attitudes would be reduced. (it would be naive to think they'd ever be eliminated)
But things got ugly. Not as ugly as they are over here, but they were more civil to begin with so they had further to go. People started speculating that the game had turned vaporware and so forth, and things got progressively uglier until Godwin's Law came into play when some jackass compared the blackout to a TRIBBLE regime. I'm not kidding about that, and factor in that Egosoft is based out of W
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Sometimes its easier to just sum it up with:
"The squeaky wheel gets the grease"
Unfortunately, while putting tickets in is civil, companies with no morales just ignore them. This is what we have going on, tickets are just ignored now.
If you want something to happen, its often easier to complain endlessly on the forums like a broken record, because otherwise nothing gets done here.
I agree that constructive feedback would be nice, but we've been through that, been ignored, been insulted, then back to ignored. What does anyone reasonable think will happen? Are people going to sit back and just accept that? Some will (CDFs), many left, some rebel. None of this behaviour is shocking, ground breaking or new, other than entertaining, its really not surprising at all; at best its a good lesson for other devs how to NOT handle their game and customers.
Completed Starbase, Embassy, Mine, Spire and No Win Scenario
Nothing to do anymore.
http://dtfleet.com/
Visit our Youtube channel
And maybe there'd be no game.
Developers no longer posting is the best and most telling metric that your posting does indeed matter.
Another recent example would be the time gecko had a meltdown with new slots he had added for crafting and people were flaming the doff UI instead of complimenting his effort.
Or go read tacofang's post about them being humanbeings that wants to be complimented.
Not to mention their Q&A team, all 6 of them, saying that they get their information from the forums - that they litterly couldn't do their job if it weren't for the players and the forums...
When content is weak, as with the case of DR they know it probably better than the players.
Posting about it is just reminding them that we know - they already know they copy-pasted no surprises there.
prove that the posters here are a tiny minority...until then you're just pullng BS out of where BS usually comes from.
insignificant? really? then why would cryptic go to such lengths to lock threads from an insignificant minority eh? you're worse than they are.
blame the gamers notthe developers, nice tactic, too bad it flies against any sort of common sense. cryptic/pwe are a BUSINESS. STO among other games are their PRODUCT that they are selling to CONSUMERS. which is US. if they offer a bad PRODUCT...if any business offers a BAD PRODUCT consumers have a right to iterate their grievances with that PRODUCT. especially if they invested in that PRODUCT.
get the picture or do i have to make a pop up book for you?
'oh my...you're so hostile'
yeah i am, i detest muddy thinking, excuses, and made up BS. i detest game companies/devs getting a free pass provided by other players as if they're somehow immune to any other common sense rules of business and consumer relations. you couldn't run any business on the street the way cryptic/pwe runs sto.
what if your isp handled things the way cryptic/pwe does? mull that over for a bit.
Donate Brains, zombies in Washington DC are starving.
they could outline their project indicate a time frame and ask for suggestions on how to improve the project
anyone out of line with their posts would be dealt with and the community would support the Dev in such a atmosphere
Trolls would be quickly identified and removed from the forum and possibly the game as well this isn't that hard of a task
It would be work to start with but over a short period of time it would pay off and the number of trolls would be quite small
For starters if I owned this game I wouldn't want anyone on my forum that wasn't supporting the game that didn't support the game with a investment history in the game itself
people that have invested there cash in the game would be more positive for the health of the game than free players would be
That alone would eliminate a huge amount of the trolls
And if your account you had invested cash in was linked to your forum personality you will be much more diplomatic with your responses than some free account where you risk nothing and can spout any garbage you wish to with no risk to yourself
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
That is funny. Not sure if this is sarcasm. I just looked at the Dev Tracker. The only time a dev goes on the forum is to announce the servers are down....
Well, apparently I'm an ESFJ...
Whoops.. the second time I was ESFP... ( I just read the whole thing... I really am a ESFP :eek:)
And yes, I was more honest with myself the second time I did it.
:cool:
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
The J is there. It's just not focused on what you're focused on. I THINK it's INTJ focused on optimizing cashflow and making payroll/financial targets or bonus conditions or tying in with game systems on a whiteboard that may or may not make it live.
In any case, I think a misconception with Myers-Briggs is that it by necessity tells what people are good at. I think it's better at telling what strategies they employ.
Yes, people with INTJ have higher IQs but is that because INTJ thinking is smarter... Or because people with higher IQs tend to employ INTJ thinking strategies as a result of their IQs? I am not convinced that the causality of aptitude is established with any of the types. I'm also not saying Cryptic guys are dumb. But I think INTJs tend to think they are more likely to be right not because they are right more often. But because people who are more likely to be technically right are INTJs.
In this case, we don't know the victory conditions for the tasks they're given. The things you see as broken may be insignificant to their objectives.
And, again, I think INTJ doesn't mean that someone is always right or ever right. It just means that they think they are and maybe that they technically are based on their own criteria for themselves, which may or may not have anything to do with your criteria for them.
The more I dug, the more I found strong evidence of a huge INTJ over-representation in game design AND MMO design. And I am not going to put words in anyone's mouth specifically. But I know a handful of Cryptic employees current and former who have all cited INTJ as their type. And the only one I've ever seen identify as another type was Daniel Stahl, who I *THINK* mentioned it here. (ENFP, I think?)
:::monkey dance:::
Oh right, I don't count . . .
It is not always as blatant as someone yelling and ranting and cursing at us. It can be much more subtle, and much more subversive than that.
As an example, it is difficult to convince other devs that coming here to talk with players is a good idea when every thread is filled with people with signatures throwing a single 3 month old comment back into our collective faces.
From this perspective, perhaps it is a good thing this place gets some moderation.
Every time I read your posts I get hungry...
See you are appreciated.
And yes I'm very subversive, but not very subtle.
BTW: My sig is meant to be funny and not taken serious at all.
ADDENDUM:
I've now created a sig that truly expresses what I feel is more appropriate... still not very subtle though.
:cool:
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
Of course, to play the devil's advocate here - if there was more stuff that the developers said to us, maybe players had a harder time to pick their one favourite quote.
Or at least they wouldn't stick to it for 3 months, because they are fickle beasts and there is a new one that works much better.
OKay, I am not sure if you can win this one.
I watched a presentation on dealing with your online community, and one advice was just - if a particular developer of your team is attacked, another developer needs to come out and make it clear that this is not acceptable behaviour.
But that probably requires multiple devs to be active somewhat regularly, otherwise it would only be always tacofangs to the rescue, and that would get old fast. For you and the players.
It may be intended as comedy, but that's not how it comes across over here. On my end of the screen, it makes me wary of every word I type, knowing that anything I say could be held against me in a court of law.
Well, sorry, but what you people can expect? Many players (we dont know how many, beacose we dont have the numbers) feel that DR is a disaster a dev tell us that is the best expancion ever and that we love it!. We were insulted when your boss call us all chaters and exploiters, Geko keeps disrespecting players and so on.
Then, forum comunication officers are MIA, they not even post the news on the forums..
Maybe, just maybe, this is not the player foult.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
You'd censor the people who are playing for free in a FREE-TO-PLAY game?
You'd only support paying people in a a FREE-TO-PLAY game?
I see a huge number of negative postings every day from lifers, and subscribers. I was a subscriber (until DR came along) and personally invested hundreds into this game. I still like the game, but I also feel a lot of decisions absolutely stink, and that this company has horrible public relations and poor customer support. I guess since I used my wallet to make my feeling known means that I should receive no support and no voice in the forums.
That wouldn't seem to be a good formula to win back support from the established, yet disgruntled customers. Is this how they do it in your occupation?
Well then...
I apologize and will attempt in the future to be more sensitive to how it comes across...
Just for the record... I've never personally felt that any of the Dev's had attacked me personally, nor have any of my posts ever been a serious attack on any of them.
It does seem though, as if certain ones could take a moment to mind-check their thoughts before blurting them out.
Especially when putting themselves in the spotlight to represent the company.
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
I used to Mod at another board where there was a similar and distinct "staff VS membership" culture that plagued it. I didn't post there much for the same reason myself.
Which is a shame because some of us are perfectly reasonable and would appreciate the opportunity for more interaction and communication with the Devs.
Well, I wont apologize.. not untill they apologize to US when they call us chaters and exploiters after the Tau Dewa fiasco.
They open the door for this madness, now they play victim?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The problem is, there are quite a few negative nancies and their screams and shouts of how everything is bad drowns out anything that might even resemble a meaningful discussion.
yes because the quote taken out of context is utterly totally accurate and no one exaggerates and lies on the internet lol
If I were an employee for this company I would refuse to post on the forums unless they like made it a part of my job description and gave me a free jelly doughnut and coffee and dedicated posting time.. and possibly stocked a liquor cabinet and gave me a key to it
Its actually amazing how people can completely twist something until its no longer recognizable and then call it "truth".
Its also equally amazing at how any helpful information gets equally screwed up and rumours start inside the game that are opposite to what actually the truth is.
Some of it makes me litterally laugh out loud but other stuff leave me shaking my head because no one with a normal level of intelligence should be behaving this way. And there is not one dev who has not been polite when posting not one. I have even read the original post about so called "not listening to the forums" lol....WoW that one was twisted beyond belief.
Everybody can be a victim, if they let themselves be.
There's no lack of "blame" on either side.
Sometimes one just has to let it go and move on.
Especially when an "Us vs Them" mentality startsd to set in.
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
It's really not all that difficult to develop a filter to those kind of folks.
It's pretty obvious after the first or second sentence just what type of post it will be.
I tend to either stop reading or continue on to see just how much of a jerk they are willing to make of themselves.
Depends on whether or not I'm bored.
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
Sorry, I understend that, but they open this pandora box and they dont seem that intesting on close in it. And even worst, they think they did not do anything wrong in all this madness.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
taco...dammit, it isn't YOU. if you ran pwe or cryptic...different story, you don't though do you? you're not the secret controller of that empire are you? i realize you get flak for being so talkative that makes you an easy target, some people just see 'oh hey, he works for cryptic...get'em boys!'
none of what i say is aimed at you, and i can only speak for myself in that regard. you do a fantastic jobs with the tools at your disposal. are pretty forthcoming with information related to what you do. and all in all a lot more open than any other cryptics i see on these forums.
and from what i've seen of your posts...you actually respond to the players as if they're human with intelligence.
but unless you are the man behind the scenes pulling the strings you aren't responsible...not even by association for policy.
Donate Brains, zombies in Washington DC are starving.
How about you just agree to disagree. "No, I don't like Delta Rising, and I feel not included in that statement. These are the reasons why."
Imagine suddenly the counter situation -Cryptic actually has some data you have no access to that suggests that Delta Rising was well received by players, based on continued sales, play time and what not - should they now treat you as a liar and stop listening to you because you were wrong? Should all the Cryptic employees add a signature of a revenue report where you clearly see the sales going up and "But the game is dying - eltatus".
For a moment, just try to be a bit sympathetic?
To be fair, it was pretty obvious that "we the players" were being held solely accountable for the "Tau Dewa" fiasco.
It would not have hurt for the gentleman in question to have put a bit of an apology in the retraction statement.
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
Agree. Beacose he knows how to talk to players with out disrespect them like Geko or Deangelo.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
been roving games for years and in every forum i go in a read is always the same trash. when i enter A game forum they are talking how much B game is better than A game, and when i go into B game they are saying how much A game is better.
people complain that the devs are not listening to them, but the true is that what they want is to Dev to say yes to whatever they want. if the Devs didnt implemented what ever you wanted, is not that they didnt listen, it means they said No.
the produc is what it is, you have never see people protest outside of a macdonalds cos they want to buy woppers. if they want wopper they go to a burged king.
now someone suggested a new subforum for people whit manners, i would like to see that, but instead of anyone been able to enter and then be baned if they dont behave, the devs should be the ones granting access to it if they find a polite player in the regular one. ( as a way to filter out the trash topics)
in conclusion, all those banners and signature with 1 line quotes are disgusting, and says lot about your characters.