The forums: The gutter of STO?

vocmcp · January 2015

The forum: The forsaken gutter of STO?

Judging by Cryptics attitude lately this is indeed how it is being seen. Well guys, you may not like the bashing, the trolling or whatever else it is that itches you, but simply leaving the forum is not very professional. While I understand that Dev's may not frequent some places that much anymore I have absolutely no understanding for your communication team not doing what they're being paid by us to do: Communicate with us! Not posting news into the Galactic News network anymore is just the latest example of how forsaken this place is. At least have the guts to COMMUNICATE a change in communication style. And on that note, remember that it is not possible not to communicate. But you may choose how you do it.

So man up, get your act together, and face us*. This will earn you much more respect than just lying low. Besides:

*rofl.....as if writing news would even qualify as such......ridiculous attitude

betaborg · January 2015

That's because they fired all of their forum administrators in order to save money.

chalpen · January 2015

it is the gutter.
Imagine talking to anyone the way people here talk to cryptic.
And I mean anyone.

cidjack · January 2015

Yeah, this thread so helps to improve the status norm.

ussprometheus79 · January 2015

There are a lot of issues on here for sure. Will it ever get better? Probably not. Too many people set in their ways.

betaborg · January 2015

chalpen wrote: »

it is the gutter.
Imagine talking to anyone the way people here talk to cryptic.
And I mean anyone.

That's their own fault. If they do not follow our wishes (as we finance this game), it is our right to critizise their behavior and if they dont listen, things get even worse.

mirrorterran · January 2015

You would literally have to pay me 6 figures to read and/or reply to the hatred I see here.

Some of the anger is deserved but I wouldn't want it to be my job. This coming from someone who has worked retail for 20 years.

This idea that they are somehow required to listen or reply is misguided. If anyone came into my place of employment and talked to me the way people often do here? They would be escorted out by security.

vocmcp · January 2015

mirrorterran wrote: »

You would literally have to pay me 6 figures to read and/or reply to the hatred I see here.

Some of the anger is deserved but I wouldn't want it to be my job. This coming from someone who has worked retail for 20 years.

This idea that they are somehow required to listen or reply is misguided. If anyone came into my place of employment and talked to me the way people often do here? They would be escorted out by security.

To be honest I don't see much flaming here. The criticism may be harsh at some times I know, but it's mostly civil and a lot is very constructive. Well, they don't have to reply to it and they don't. Fair enough. But not even communicating news any more is just childish. The situation here hasn't gotten that bad to completely pull out of it.

betaborg · January 2015

mirrorterran wrote: »

This idea that they are somehow required to listen or reply is misguided.

What else should we do to improve the game. It's like talking to a wall (Cryptic).

gfreeman98 · January 2015

If the forums are the gutter, then in-game chat is the sewer - it's far worse than the forums.

gonalius · January 2015

I'd like to see a constructive criticism sub-forum, which you are only allowed to post in if you have something pertinent to say in a polite manner. Abuse of said sub-forum would result in temporary bans from the forum as a whole, and the game itself.

Unknown · January 2015

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captainkoltar · January 2015

Yes. Yes it is. I mean, take a step back and read your own post, for starters.

It's aggressive, antagonistic and uncivil. Would you speak like that to someone in the street? Or in a shop? I very much doubt it. And if you did, you'd be arrested for harassment.

warpangel · January 2015

gonalius wrote: »

I'd like to see a constructive criticism sub-forum, which you are only allowed to post in if you have something pertinent to say in a polite manner. Abuse of said sub-forum would result in temporary bans from the forum as a whole, and the game itself.

I find it sad that polite behavior should be restricted to a sub-forum.

blassreiterus · January 2015

betaborg wrote: »

That's their own fault. If they do not follow our wishes (as we finance this game), it is our right to critizise their behavior and if they dont listen, things get even worse.

So, you being a jerk to Cryptic means that they'll listen to your feedback more quickly? Is that how things are to be done? Sorry, but any intelligent person would know that being a jerk to others isn't going to garner you any sympathy at all.

Cryptic has a right to not communicate with the player base if they're being jerks to the devs... that's why you don't see the majority of the dev team in the forums, they neither have the time nor the patience to sit through and sift through all the whining that people do on this forum... and some players wonder why a certain developer called people whiny.

ashlotte · January 2015

This forum thread is adding more trash to the heap of filth that we slog through daily.

It's troll bait.

Congratulations for throwing one more fish bone into the pile of rotted, mutilated horse corpses, friend!

Unknown · January 2015

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betaborg · January 2015

blassreiterus wrote: »

So, you being a jerk to Cryptic means that they'll listen to your feedback more quickly? Is that how things are to be done? Sorry, but any intelligent person would know that being a jerk to others isn't going to garner you any sympathy at all.

Cryptic has a right to not communicate with the player base if they're being jerks to the devs... that's why you don't see the majority of the dev team in the forums, they neither have the time nor the patience to sit through and sift through all the whining that people do on this forum... and some players wonder why a certain developer called people whiny.

Again, the main problem is the missing communication. It won't help if they abandon us.

Unknown · January 2015

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mustrumridcully0 · January 2015

vocmcp wrote: »

To be honest I don't see much flaming here. The criticism may be harsh at some times I know, but it's mostly civil and a lot is very constructive. Well, they don't have to reply to it and they don't. Fair enough. But not even communicating news any more is just childish. The situation here hasn't gotten that bad to completely pull out of it.

It isn't just flaming that can be painful to endure. Sometimes even critic I would not call "flaming" in the strict sense is not something I'd want to expose myself on a regular basis - especially not if I can't afford to tell people my real opinion of their attitude.

Today I saw even some people comparing STO to cancer.

But there are even more harmless accusations. Like calling the devs "lazy". Or "greedy". Or claiming they are incompetent. That they are lying. People starting threads about how Cryptic will "ruin/monetize" the game next. People want to see individuals getting fired (Man, how would you react to that if someone came to you and your colleagues and asked for you to be fired? Would you ever want to be in that position? Regardless if the game is a crazy lunatic or has a good point...)

And then you present a new idea like the new BO training system that seems to contain a lot of cool features that will make life a lot easier for players, and all people talk about is that it will add more dilithium grind - without even having a solid basis for that claim.

There are probably ways to stay active on the forums as a developer and counter such claims. But - that is time intensive, and the forums aren't their job. And they would often just end up repeating themselve.s Look at how often tacofangs has to answer the same questions...

The only ones of Cryptic that have a job dealing with the forums are the Community Team. I tend to think they could be more active, too. But hey - as long as they condense the feedback they find on the forums, they're still doing the critical part. Whether the 3 % forum users are happy with the response times on the forums is not as important as whether the game gets the features and changes that are meaningful to the game.

zeuxidemus001 · January 2015

vocmcp wrote: »

The forum: The forsaken gutter of STO?

Judging by Cryptics attitude lately this is indeed how it is being seen. Well guys, you may not like the bashing, the trolling or whatever else it is that itches you, but simply leaving the forum is not very professional. While I understand that Dev's may not frequent some places that much anymore I have absolutely no understanding for your communication team not doing what they're being paid by us to do: Communicate with us! Not posting news into the Galactic News network anymore is just the latest example of how forsaken this place is. At least have the guts to COMMUNICATE a change in communication style. And on that note, remember that it is not possible not to communicate. But you may choose how you do it.

So man up, get your act together, and face us*. This will earn you much more respect than just lying low. Besides:

*rofl.....as if writing news would even qualify as such......ridiculous attitude

I'll be honest they know their game is way way behind the standard for mmorpgs these days so they are milking what they can out of it before one of two things happen. They will be asked to do a sequel from the ground up or to pass the buck to another company who can handle the workload. When I say handle it I mean like this... I can say yeah I understand Star Trek is about the federation exploring and peacekeeping and such which was mostly limited to an enterprise, ds9, and then voyager. The thing though is that a limited exploration of earth and esd is about the sum of what you can visit or do anything with the core world of the federation much less the alpha quadrant.

So in retrospect the forums are not the gutter of sto when sto has been a gutter itself. Its just taken this long for new and old players to see the game isn't going to evolve any further than what we get which is grindfests with little to no work done by cryptic on the game itself. So its like an insult and disrespect to the franchise and to star trek fans everywhere when they try to defend what the status quo for what they consider running this game lol.

betaborg · January 2015

mustrumridcully0 wrote: »

And then you present a new idea like the new BO training system that seems to contain a lot of cool features that will make life a lot easier for players, and all people talk about is that it will add more dilithium grind - without even having a solid basis for that claim.

Haha the solid basis for that is the experience since the game went F2P.

mustrumridcully0 · January 2015

vocmcp wrote: »

But not even communicating news any more is just childish. The situation here hasn't gotten that bad to completely pull out of it.

While I really prefer having something in the Dev Tracker for every blog, let's be honest - the news site is one click away from any page on the forum. That's often even less clicks than the Dev Tracker would be away.

But, yeah, clicking on "Back to Game News" is something not yet in my muscle memory.

vocmcp · January 2015

mustrumridcully0 wrote: »

It isn't just flaming that can be painful to endure. Sometimes even critic I would not call "flaming" in the strict sense is not something I'd want to expose myself on a regular basis - especially not if I can't afford to tell people my real opinion of their attitude.

Today I saw even some people comparing STO to cancer.

But there are even more harmless accusations. Like calling the devs "lazy". Or "greedy". Or claiming they are incompetent. That they are lying. People starting threads about how Cryptic will "ruin/monetize" the game next. People want to see individuals getting fired (Man, how would you react to that if someone came to you and your colleagues and asked for you to be fired? Would you ever want to be in that position? Regardless if the game is a crazy lunatic or has a good point...)

And then you present a new idea like the new BO training system that seems to contain a lot of cool features that will make life a lot easier for players, and all people talk about is that it will add more dilithium grind - without even having a solid basis for that claim.

There are probably ways to stay active on the forums as a developer and counter such claims. But - that is time intensive, and the forums aren't their job. And they would often just end up repeating themselve.s Look at how often tacofangs has to answer the same questions...

The only ones of Cryptic that have a job dealing with the forums are the Community Team. I tend to think they could be more active, too. But hey - as long as they condense the feedback they find on the forums, they're still doing the critical part. Whether the 3 % forum users are happy with the response times on the forums is not as important as whether the game gets the features and changes that are meaningful to the game.

Well yeah... I get your point... I'd be pissed and disappointed too. Nevertheless not even posting a news link anymore is just being a little too touchy. After all this is the interwebz and not a fluffy pony farm.

chalpen · January 2015

betaborg wrote: »

That's their own fault. If they do not follow our wishes (as we finance this game), it is our right to critizise their behavior and if they dont listen, things get even worse.

yeah. that is what I tell my kids "if you don't listen to me, i am going to yell and whine and flame you".

waldotrek · January 2015

For the record "the Academy" section of the forum is working as it should. Not too much anger over there just lots of questions and answers which is why I really come to the forums.

I think some of the angst here is the fact that people just want this game to be great. Granted everyone has there own model of what that is but if the game high ups are posting here and your putting a lot of $$ and time into the game of course you are going to use this as an outlet to vent if you feel they could do a better job.
And yes people could tone it down a bit.

stardestroyer001 · January 2015

Time and time again, I repeat myself.

This is a symptom of poor upper management. I have full confidence in Cryptic's team doing the things we all wish they did, if an incompetent manager up top in Cryptic/PWE was fired or removed from their position, and replaced with someone who recognizes the importance of happy players. Quality, not quantity.

warpangel · January 2015

stardestroyer001 wrote: »

Time and time again, I repeat myself.

This is a symptom of poor upper management. I have full confidence in Cryptic's team doing the things we all wish they did, if an incompetent manager up top in Cryptic/PWE was fired or removed from their position, and replaced with someone who recognizes the importance of happy players. Quality, not quantity.

Except for the part where "we all" wish they did entirely different things. :rolleyes:

jam3s1701 · January 2015

Tbh, if I worked for STO and I got spoken to like how some people speak to them I would ban soo many people, not just few days or weeks but locked, good bye, gone forever man your account is gone no hope of getting it back ban.

I was brought up to respect people and treat people how I would want to be treated so it shocks me how they just take it... So not shocked they stay clear of the forums like they do tbh.

leviathan99 · January 2015

stardestroyer001 wrote: »

Time and time again, I repeat myself.

This is a symptom of poor upper management. I have full confidence in Cryptic's team doing the things we all wish they did, if an incompetent manager up top in Cryptic/PWE was fired or removed from their position, and replaced with someone who recognizes the importance of happy players. Quality, not quantity.

I made a comment elsewhere about game developers tending to be INTJ, which rings true for management here.

Here's a good description:

INTJ: The Mastermind

http://www.16personalities.com/intj-personality

At times it will seem that INTJs are bent on deconstructing and rebuilding every idea and system they come into contact with, employing a sense of perfectionism and even morality to this work. Anyone who doesn't have the talent to keep up with INTJs' processes, or worse yet, doesn't see the point of them, is likely to immediately and permanently lose their respect.

...

INTJs are brilliant and confident in bodies of knowledge they have taken the time to understand, but unfortunately the social contract is unlikely to be one of those subjects. White lies and small talk are hard enough as it is for a type that craves truth and depth, but INTJs may go so far as to see many social conventions as downright stupid. Ironically, it is often best for them to remain where they are comfortable - out of the spotlight - where the natural confidence prevalent in INTJs as they work with the familiar can serve as its own beacon, attracting people, romantically or otherwise, of similar temperament and interests.

INTJs are defined by their tendency to move through life as though it were a giant chess board, pieces constantly shifting with consideration and intelligence, always assessing new tactics, strategies and contingency plans, constantly outmaneuvering their peers in order to maintain control of a situation while maximizing their freedom to move about. This isn't meant to suggest that INTJs act without conscience, but to many Feeling (F) types, INTJs' distaste for acting on emotion can make it seem that way, and it explains why many fictional villains (and misunderstood heroes) are modeled on this personality type.
...
Their independent attitude and tireless demand for competence mean that INTJs absolutely loathe those who get ahead by seemingly less meritocratic means like social prowess and political connections. INTJs have exceptionally high standards, and if they view a colleague or supervisor as incompetent or ineffective, respect will be lost instantly and permanently. INTJs value personal initiative, determination, insight and dedication, and believe that everyone should complete their work to the highest possible standards if a schmoozing shill breezes through without carrying their own weight, they may find INTJs' inventiveness and determination used in a whole new capacity as the winds turn against them.
...
Even less sensitive children will need emotional support from time to time, especially as they approach adolescence - INTJs, even more so than other Analyst (NT) types, struggle to manage their own emotions in a healthy way, let alone others'. As a result, INTJs tend to avoid unproductive emotional support, instead taking a solutions-based approach to resolving issues. This is where INTJs are strongest - assessing a dilemma to find the underlying cause and developing a plan to solve the problem at its source.
...
Arrogant - INTJs are perfectly capable of carrying their confidence too far, falsely believing that they've resolved all the pertinent issues of a matter and closing themselves off to the opinions of those they believe to be intellectually inferior. Combined with their irreverence for social conventions, INTJs can be brutally insensitive in making their opinions of others all too clear.
Judgmental - INTJs tend to have complete confidence in their thought process, because rational arguments are almost by definition correct - at least in theory. In practice, emotional considerations and history are hugely influential, and a weak point for INTJs is that they brand these factors and those who embrace them as illogical, dismissing them and considering their proponents to be stuck in some baser mode of thought, making it all but impossible to be heard.
Overly analytical - A recurring theme with INTJs is their analytical prowess, but this strength can fall painfully short where logic doesn't rule - such as with human relationships. When their critical minds and sometimes neurotic level of perfectionism (often the case with Turbulent INTJs) are applied to other people, all but the steadiest of friends will likely need to make some distance, too often permanently.

I have recently learned that INTJs are about 8x as prevalent among game designers as they are in the general population and as a social consequence, many game studios end up filtering out all their non-INTJ employees by supporting an INTJ way of doing business.

Now... What I have said for awhile now. Nobody needs to be fired. The Cryptic platform is designed to continuously develop new games.

Your INTJ style managers should be put to good use on games that are still being designed.

Live games should not be managed by INTJs unless they are extremely self-aware and self-correct for their innate tendencies. A live game is an entertainment service built on good will, not a systems project. A good idea is insufficient. Spin and damage control are not coats of paint to be applied on at the end or tertiary products but should be integral to product design from the moment beta ends, even if it interferes with efficiency or technical excellence in systems design.

Ideal candidates for leadership on a live game?

ESTP: The Promoter

ESTP personality types always have an impact on their immediate surroundings - the best way to spot them at a party is to look for the whirling eddy of people flitting about them as they move from group to group. Laughing and entertaining with a blunt and earthy humor, ESTP personalities love to be the center of attention. If an audience member is asked to come on stage, ESTPs volunteer - or volunteer a shy friend.

Theory, abstract concepts and plodding discussions about global issues and their implications don't keep ESTPs interested for long. ESTPs keep their conversation energetic, with a good dose of intelligence, but they like to talk about what is - or better yet, to just go out and do it. ESTPs leap before they look, fixing their mistakes as they go, rather than sitting idle, preparing contingencies and escape clauses.

...

When it comes to ESTPs' career options, "action" is the word of the day. People with the ESTP personality type think on their feet and are great at making quick decisions in the heat of the moment. At the same time, they're affable people who always seem to make friends and connections wherever they go. Popularity and solid networking can be huge assets in the working world, and ESTPs nail it.

This social intelligence, combined with ESTPs' natural boldness and improvisational skill, makes sales, business negotiations, marketing, even acting - any tense, competitive environment - a great fit. ESTP personalities trust themselves to make the right call. Risks, big and small, are a part of life, and ESTPs don't sit around waiting for some boss at the top to tell them what to do. This can get ESTPs into trouble, but often enough it's exactly what's needed, and can boost them up the career ladder just as well.

It's hard to imagine ESTPs choosing secure but boring jobs over less stable but more exciting careers.
Restrictions, rules, highly structured environments - these are great ways to drive ESTPs crazy. People with this personality type live life on their own terms, and this makes them brilliant entrepreneurs and freelancers. These roles also allow them to delegate the more tedious aspects of work, the accounting, meticulous research and so forth, to those better suited

ENTP: The Inventor

The ENTP personality type is the ultimate devil's advocate, thriving on the process of shredding arguments and beliefs and letting the ribbons drift in the wind for all to see. Unlike their more determined Judging (J) counterparts, ENTPs don't do this because they are trying to achieve some deeper purpose or strategic goal, but for the simple reason that it's fun. No one loves the process of mental sparring more than ENTPs, as it gives them a chance to exercise their effortlessly quick wit, broad accumulated knowledge base, and capacity for connecting disparate ideas to prove their points.
...

An odd juxtaposition arises with ENTPs, as they are uncompromisingly honest, but will argue tirelessly for something they don't actually believe in, stepping into another's shoes to argue a truth from another perspective.

Playing the devil's advocate helps people with the ENTP personality type to not only develop a better sense of others' reasoning, but a better understanding of opposing ideas - since ENTPs are the ones arguing them.
...
All this intellectual power can be intimidating, but unlike their Introverted (I) cousins, people with the ENTP personality type have the added benefit of being excellent communicators, in the written word but especially in face-to-face conversation. Though they dislike the constraints of managing others (and of being managed), this social adaptability allows ENTPs to be natural leaders, showing the way forward and inspiring others with sound logic and intellectual prowess. While others may object to these plans with emotional considerations or general resistance to change, things ENTPs place little value in, these competing comments are usually outmaneuvered by ENTP personalities' deft arguments and subtly shifting goals.
...
While not always their goal, management is often where ENTPs are most at home, allowing them the freedom to fiddle with different approaches and come up with innovative ways to tackle new challenges without having to handle the tedious step-by-step implementation of these plans. ENTPs are open-minded and flexible managers, not just granting but also expecting the same freedom of thought that they themselves enjoy. This can lead to disorder, conflicting ideas and approaches being put forward, but ENTPs are also great at accurately and objectively assessing which plan is likely to be most effective.
...
Having little attachment to tradition, ENTP personalities are able to discard existing systems and methods and pull together disparate ideas from their extensive knowledge base, with a little raw creativity to hold them together, to formulate bold new ideas. If presented with chronic, systemic problems and given rein to solve them, ENTPs respond with unabashed glee.
Excellent Brainstormers - Nothing is quite as enjoyable to ENTPs as analyzing problems from every angle to find the best solutions. Combining their knowledge and originality to splay out every aspect of the subject at hand, rejecting without remorse options that don't work and presenting ever more possibilities, ENTPs are irreplaceable in brainstorming sessions.
Charismatic - People with the ENTP personality type have a way with words and wit that others find intriguing. Their confidence, quick thought and ability to connect disparate ideas in novel ways create a style of communication that is charming, even entertaining, and informative at the same time.
...
Luckily, ENTP personalities recognize what's at stake: they want their children to grow into smart, independent, honest adults. To convey those values, ENTPs know that they need, like with any other debate, to communicate in terms that are accessible to all sides. If that means learning how to use the tools of emotional expression and appeals, and in so doing becoming more emotionally expressive in real, personal terms as well, so be it.

futurepastnow · January 2015

STO-forum is the sphincter of the game community. I come here to check the dev tracker, read the release notes, and then mostly browse general discussion to see what people who are bad at the game are being bad at this week.

The forums: The gutter of STO?

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