This has been a pretty civil and reasoned discussion. In addition, the majority opinion here is squarely in the "don't shoot them like dogs" camp. And most importantly, many posts have a great deal of nuance about difficult subjects.
My confidence in humanity has been bolstered for the day, thanks all.
On the whole this has been the only thread where there seems to be a united front. Thank you for the wisdom to post this.
Very true. Jihadists are like Crusaders; evil, borderline insane dogs that believe that dying while killing and mutilating people will get them to heaven.
Of course, most religions, and my own personal philosophy (I'm sort of an atheist), frown on this sort of attitude. Which is why one of my Muslim friends said while discussing ISIS that the possibility of any ISIS member not going straight to the deepest pits of hell is considerably less than the chance that each and every one of the ten guys in that conversation were to be simultaneously struck by the same bolt of lightning while each one was in a separate galaxy.
Anyway. Very good point; jihadists view imprisonment as worse than a quick death, so give it to 'em.
What is however interesting is that we may only see the "Nasty" side of the business.
I read an article a while ago about a find of documents and data from ISIS that details their more political sides and activities - which also implied that a large part of the money they made was spend on what is essentially "welfare" for the families of the ISIS soldiers.
These are obviously very powerful ways to make people sympathetic to your cause. But since this isn't much known or talked about, we in turn will just think what kind of monsters the other side must be for supporting such a murderous regime - but we don't really know what positives they bring to the people that support them.
Of course, no one can say whether such services could or would be maintained for long, even after a hypothetical ISIS victory, but - for the moment, it doesn't matter to anyone there.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I don't see how calling you out on certain points constitutes sociopathy. You mentioned yourself that you were "speaking from authority," and I came in to point out that Islamic thought is much larger, and much more complex than the Koran.
Yeah, and I know that. I'm not pretending to be the ultimate authority on Muslim cultures and Islamic thought. I am saying that I've read the Koran, in the original Arabic no less, and that gives me the knowledge and authority to say that ISIS's actions constitute sacrilege and blasphemy. My various Muslim friends and my roommate's ex who's studying comparative religion will back me up on this.
This isn't even a religious issue, as far as I'm concerned. It ceased being a religious issue when Al-Baghdadi unilaterally claimed direct lineage to Muhammad pbuh (so have Saddam Hussein and the new tyrant of Egypt, Al-Sisi). We can look at ISIS, at Al-Qaeda, even, and find more root causes for their growth and ideology in historical/socio-economical truths than we can in any religious text.
This is truth. ISIS is a bunch of monsters with a veneer of faux religion on top.
Thank you for another pointless, bigoted comment that adds nothing to the discussion. Congratulations on being only marginally better than the parody Texan torturer in "The Dictator".
Were you two flaming bigots aware that one of the police officers who died in this incident was a Muslim?
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Were you two flaming bigots aware that one of the police officers who died in this incident was a Muslim?
No, see, police officers can't be mooslems. Only terrorists are mooslems and A-rahbs. It's an evil satanist cult of violence, you see.
</ruthless parody>
Most bigots don't have the time, brain capacity, or inclination to consider or comprehend the things coming out of their mouths. Or to notice small but important details. Or to not use and reinforce offensive stereotypes.
No, see, police officers can't be mooslems. Only terrorists are mooslems and A-rahbs. It's an evil satanist cult of violence, you see.
</ruthless parody>
Most bigots don't have the time, brain capacity, or inclination to consider or comprehend the things coming out of their mouths. Or to notice small but important details. Or to not use and reinforce offensive stereotypes.
Reminds me of this thing I saw on this forum right after Nelson Mandela died. Somebody posted that they were talking in-game about how great a guy he was and how sad it was he was gone, and then some twit breaks in going why's everybody sad that a terrorist's dead?
Turns out the dumbass didn't even know who Nelson Mandela was and just thought the name sounded "terroristy".
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Reminds me of this thing I saw on this forum right after Nelson Mandela died. Somebody posted that they were talking in-game about how great a guy he was and how sad it was he was gone, and then some twit breaks in going why's everybody sad that a terrorist's dead?
Turns out the dumbass didn't even know who Nelson Mandela was and just thought the name sounded "terroristy".
...I think I saw that in-game, actually. IIRC it was in ESD zone chat. :rolleyes:
Something is eluding me and perhaps someone can clarify.
I've heard these jihadi and suicide bombers are promised heaven and 40 (or was it 70) virgins.
So exactly what's the point.
If there is a heaven it will be a place filled with such beauty and grace that everything else pales in comparison. Why bother with virgins if the experience of bodily interaction pales to the surroundings.
But let's go with the assumption that sex is something to be enjoyed there, i would imagine 40 virgins is not a blessing but a curse. Not even going with a comment from a former colleague stating that all those virgins would say is "Au" since the first time is usually not the pleasurable experience people make it out to be.
Let's assume that as a man you're confident in your skills and equipment, but let's also assume that the first virgin that comes your way does not share your opinion on both. You'll be left with 39 virgins snickering every time you arrive. How is that a blessing?
In heaven you will have an immortal body and no need for food or drinks. Again, why do you need 40-70 virgins? With no food or drinks you don't need them to waiter these things to you. All that is left is 40 women nagging and i can't imagine 40 women without the simple pleasures of life (food, drinks and sex) will stay in a good mood for long. Again, how is this a blessing?
Can someone explain these things to me?
(For the record, the representation of heaven is based on the assumptions made by jihadis and does not conform with my personal vision of "heaven")
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
Nabreeki, I'm not pretending to be an Islamic scholar. I'm saying that ISIS claims to be a fundamentalist Muslim organization, and reading from Islam's holiest text, they violate the holiest tenets of Islam.
And then they slap blasphemy and being appallingly evil on top of sacrilege and being garden-variety evil.
So do please try not to indulge your more sociopathic instincts; this is a serious matter. When I, a guy whose experience with Islam consists of having read the Koran, taking Arabic, and having Muslim friends (mostly of the Shia branch and various minor sects), am able to see that ISIS is blatantly violating the holiest tenets of Islam, I really don't see how attacking my credibility by saying that I'm not an Islamic scholar (which, I note, I never claimed to be) is going to help anything.
I don't usually support the death penalty except in extreme cases, and these guys are no exception. Life without parole in maximum security is the best option.
It's also another example of how hypocritical jihadists are. Having actually read the Koran, I can state with authority that Islam specifically forbids murder, attributing "evil acts" to Allah, to declare somebody non-Muslim unless xe publicly expresses xir disbelief...
Well, there's a list. Written by the world's top Islamic scholars, as it happens.
Yeah, and I know that. I'm not pretending to be the ultimate authority on Muslim cultures and Islamic thought. I am saying that I've read the Koran, in the original Arabic no less, and that gives me the knowledge and authority to say that ISIS's actions constitute sacrilege and blasphemy. My various Muslim friends and my roommate's ex who's studying comparative religion will back me up on this.
This is truth. ISIS is a bunch of monsters with a veneer of faux religion on top.
Thank you for another pointless, bigoted comment that adds nothing to the discussion. Congratulations on being only marginally better than the parody Texan torturer in "The Dictator".
As a non-believer, you have absolutely mo authority (as in Official Authority or Sanction) to claim at all on the subject... You may have read the Qur'an in the original Arabic (good on you, but remember, that only a minority of the world's Muslims are actually Arabs, so that is somewhat moot point to make :P ) but that does not allow you on to 'state with authority' on the subject, and in your post, you specifically said you could 'state with authority'. You may not have intended that to read as arrogant (and I appreciate that text often loses intended tone) but it did read thus. One cannot simply 'claim authority' in any subject which one studies (without coming across as a massive jackass) only something which one does in a professional capacity bestows such privilege... As a Muslim, and given your athiest beliefs, I felt that statement came across as massively arrogant, and while I do appreciate that you were discussing something you had read from your point of understanding, but by claiming to be able to 'state with authority' while you possibly did not intended it to be, it did come across as extremely arrogant... :-\
My heart goes out to the families of those slain and the French people. I hope they don't over-react. Having walked out of lower Manhattan on 9/11 and lived there most of my life, I can say with pride and disappointment - that people reacted well, but our government, not so much.
Honestly the feeling in NYC was shock, horror, grief and then acceptance and a determination to just get back to the business of life. I also traveled a lot and it seemed like the further you got away from it, the more people over-reacted to it.
It seems fear was the drug of choice for too many of my fellow Americans. The media and our government were happily dispensing it. The more fear we consumed, the more liberties we were willing to give up for the illusion of safety. Fast forward a decade and you don't have beat cops ingrained in a community, but storm troopers with assault weapons patrolling suburbia. By giving in to irrational fears, we've voluntarily done greater damage to our own society than any terrorist ever could. In many ways, we handed them a win.
I hope the French learn from our mistakes and temper their response.
Something is eluding me and perhaps someone can clarify.
I've heard these jihadi and suicide bombers are promised heaven and 40 (or was it 70) virgins.
So exactly what's the point.
If there is a heaven it will be a place filled with such beauty and grace that everything else pales in comparison. Why bother with virgins if the experience of bodily interaction pales to the surroundings.
But let's go with the assumption that sex is something to be enjoyed there, i would imagine 40 virgins is not a blessing but a curse. Not even going with a comment from a former colleague stating that all those virgins would say is "Au" since the first time is usually not the pleasurable experience people make it out to be.
Let's assume that as a man you're confident in your skills and equipment, but let's also assume that the first virgin that comes your way does not share your opinion on both. You'll be left with 39 virgins snickering every time you arrive. How is that a blessing?
In heaven you will have an immortal body and no need for food or drinks. Again, why do you need 40-70 virgins? With no food or drinks you don't need them to waiter these things to you. All that is left is 40 women nagging and i can't imagine 40 women without the simple pleasures of life (food, drinks and sex) will stay in a good mood for long. Again, how is this a blessing?
Can someone explain these things to me?
(For the record, the representation of heaven is based on the assumptions made by jihadis and does not conform with my personal vision of "heaven")
'Virgins' is a missconception/misinterpretation and was intended to refer to companions (as in follks one associates with) of 'flawless/perfect character, not necessily 'chicks who've never Done It', as those who mock Islam attempt to insist as a way of ridiculingg the intent of the jihadist*
*and jihad merely means struggle, and refers to the Greater Jihad of being a better person, not the Lesser Jihad of combat...
As a non-believer, you have absolutely mo authority (as in Official Authority or Sanction) to claim at all on the subject... You may have read the Qur'an in the original Arabic (good on you, but remember, that only a minority of the world's Muslims are actually Arabs, so that is somewhat moot point to make :P ) but that does not allow you on to 'state with authority' on the subject, and in your post, you specifically said you could 'state with authority'. You may not have intended that to read as arrogant (and I appreciate that text often loses intended tone) but it did read thus. One cannot simply 'claim authority' in any subject which one studies (without coming across as a massive jackass) only something which one does in a professional capacity bestows such privilege... As a Muslim, and given your athiest beliefs, I felt that statement came across as massively arrogant, and while I do appreciate that you were discussing something you had read from your point of understanding, but by claiming to be able to 'state with authority' while you possibly did not intended it to be, it did come across as extremely arrogant... :-\
This may be a POV thing again; If I had a definitive text that summed up and defined my beliefs, and somebody else read it, I would be absolutely OK with that someone, having knowledge of the text, to claim authority on basic, clearly-defined concepts.
I won't claim to know, for example, the dates of every Islamic holy day, or the details of prayers and such, but I do consider having read the Koran to be a solid basis for making statements about broad concepts such as sacrilege and blasphemy in Islam.
As I said above, I would NOT consider someone who had access to and perused in its entirety a document detailing my religious beliefs (or in my case lack thereof) to be arrogant if they were to make statements about concepts discussed and described in said document.
Plus, I had this conversation with my Muslim friends (three Shiites, a Twelver, and two Sunni), and I have to admit that I've been paraphrasing them a lot. My friend from Jordan (for privacy I won't say her name) was the one who first made the "veneer of faux religion" comment, actually.
'Virgins' is a missconception/misinterpretation and was intended to refer to companions (as in follks one associates with) of 'flawless/perfect character, not necessily 'chicks who've never Done It', as those who mock Islam attempt to insist as a way of ridiculingg the intent of the jihadist*
*and jihad merely means struggle, and refers to the Greater Jihad of being a better person, not the Lesser Jihad of combat...
I'm afraid the purpose still eludes me. In heaven i would imagine the close proximity to your God would be the reward and more than one could possibly comprehend. In the overwhelming presence of God (or Allah) why do you need any companions no matter now pure or flawless they are.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
This may be a POV thing again; If I had a definitive text that summed up and defined my beliefs, and somebody else read it, I would be absolutely OK with that someone, having knowledge of the text, to claim authority on basic, clearly-defined concepts.
What you may be okay with, you cannot assume that others are also...
I won't claim to know, for example, the dates of every Islamic holy day, or the details of prayers and such, but I do consider having read the Koran to be a solid basis for making statements about broad concepts such as sacrilege and blasphemy in Islam.
And that, is why you are not an authority on the subject, ergo cannot state with authority on the subject.
As I said above, I would NOT consider someone who had access to and perused in its entirety a document detailing my religious beliefs (or in my case lack thereof) to be arrogant if they were to make statements about concepts discussed and described in said document.
As immediately above, you might not, but others might... I've held my tongue a few times when you've made statements prefaced similarly by 'as a [subject of choice]ist...' but on this subject, it was too much to ignore, and as I said in my initial reply, someone only has the privilege of being able to claim authority, when they do something professionaly (or are acknowledged as experts in their field by their peers) Having an interest or studing something, doesn't bestow that privilege. That's not meant as a slam, as I know you've never meant any offence by such statements, but just to let you know, that it doesn't always convey as intended when written
Had you said "I can state with certainty" (because you're absolutely correct, those acts are all outright forbidden by the Qur'an) it would have been better than to say "I can state with authority". As mentioned (and I don't want to harp on about it) it's an unfortunate habit to have, and one I would encourage trying to break, because I am sure that arrogance is not the tone you intend to create :cool:
I'm afraid the purpose still eludes me. In heaven i would imagine the close proximity to your God would be the reward and more than one could possibly comprehend. In the overwhelming presence of God (or Allah) why do you need any companions no matter now pure or flawless they are.
Different concept of heaven, TBH. You're using one interpretation (the one my dad uses), the ancient Greeks had another, a Russian Orthodox might have yet a third.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I'm afraid the purpose still eludes me. In heaven i would imagine the close proximity to your God would be the reward and more than one could possibly comprehend. In the overwhelming presence of God (or Allah) why do you need any companions no matter now pure or flawless they are.
That's a very good question, I can't really answer that... Maybe one might need the companions because the presence of God would be too overwhelming to comprehend... I don't know. It's actually not a question I've ever actually given any thought to
Had you said "I can state with certainty" (because you're absolutely correct, those acts are all outright forbidden by the Qur'an) it would have been better than to say "I can state with authority". As mentioned (and I don't want to harp on about it) it's an unfortunate habit to have, and one I would encourage trying to break, because I am sure that arrogance is not the tone you intend to create :cool:
Ah. Here is the problem.
Thank you very much, I will definitely remember this in the future. Writing it on a Post-It to myself, actually.
Thank you very much, I will definitely remember this in the future. Writing it on a Post-It to myself, actually.
My apologies.
No worries, as above, knowing you, I know you don't intend to sound arrogant, but it sadly can read thus, but if someone's not aware of a bad habit, they can't try and overcome it. It's all just context and phrasing :cool: And although I may not have been specific before, just to be clear, I was implying that Person X's peers would also be paid professionals/experts in their fields, not just someone's personal peers lending "Yeah, my bro's right!" support
Different concept of heaven, TBH. You're using one interpretation (the one my dad uses), the ancient Greeks had another, a Russian Orthodox might have yet a third.
While it is true that i am a Christian and view "Heaven" as the place where the faithful will spend eternity in close proximity to their God, i have spoken to Muslim colleagues and Muslims at the community center where i do volunteers work.
From what i gathered from those conversations the Muslim view on "Heaven" does not differ from the Christian view on "Heaven".
With that in mind, is it such a stretch that those Jihadi (to use the term loosely) use the same definition?
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Je Suis Charlie says it all, and is all that needs to be said.
Fair enough. We did get a bit side tracked.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
Different concept of heaven, TBH. You're using one interpretation (the one my dad uses), the ancient Greeks had another, a Russian Orthodox might have yet a third.
Yeah, the Orthodox take on Heaven and Hell is definitely different than the typical Western perspective though they definitely believe in such a concept (and I say ONE concept because the separation between the two is not "geographic," for lack of a better word...as in, leave your copy of the Divine Comedy at home, because it won't paint the picture ). In fact, "geographic separation" is even considered theologically abhorrent.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
That's actually fairly irrelevant from the shooters' point of view. Assuming for a moment -- and I'll concede that at this point it's a fairly strong assumption to make -- that the shooters subscribe to the takfiri mentality espoused by AQAP/ISIS, then the police officer is guilty of apostasy for not openly aiding the armed struggle against the West/Imperialism/Infidel/insert whatever here. There is a strict "us and them" approach used here as a loophole for killing other Muslims without any pang of guilt or hesitation.
Did you have to go to college to learn how to miss the point that badly? I wasn't flaming the gunmen that time, I was talking to those two morons in this thread who were painting all Muslims with the same brush.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Je Suis Charlie says it all, and is all that needs to be said.
Actually, it's not.
Its not as if everything in the world was fine up until 1/7/15, and people's diverse beliefs and opinions were accepted.
So many Christians, Yizidis, Turkomen, Assyrians, Shi'a and Sunni men, women and children have been crucified, executed, beheaded, r4ped and sold into slavery JUST within the past 6 months. And I'm only talking about whats happening in Syria and Iraq, never mind Boko Haram in Africa and the car bomb that went off yesterday in Yemen that killed 37. Appeasement and false ideas of containment don't work.
Al Qaeda.
The Taliban.
The Islamic State.
They want us to either pay a tax for non-conversion (Jews or Christians only IF they're feeling generous), submit to their ideology and convert to hard-line Islam, or die. It really is that simple. There's no negotiating with them, or persuading them to "celebrate diversity." If you are an apostate or you slander their beliefs, they feel they are entitled and completely justified to kill in retribution.
THAT is what happened in Paris.
And THAT and WORSE is what has BEEN HAPPENING in Syria and Iraq.
Its not as if everything in the world was fine up until 1/7/15, and people diverse beliefs and opinions were accepted.
So many Christians, Yizidis, Turkomen, Assyrians, Shi'a and Sunni men, women and children have been crucified, executed, beheaded, r4ped and sold into slavery JUST within the past 6 months. And I'm only talking about whats happening in Syria and Iraq, never mind Boko Haram in Africa and the car bomb that went off yesterday in Yemen that killed 37. Appeasement and false ideas of containment don't work.
Al Qaeda.
The Taliban.
The Islamic State.
They want us to either pay a tax for non-conversion (Jews or Christians only IF they're feeling generous), submit to their ideology and convert to hard-line Islam, or die. It really is that simple. There's no negotiating with them, or persuading them to "celebrate diversity." If you are an apostate or you slander their beliefs, they feel they are entitled and completely justified to kill in retribution.
THAT is what happened in Paris.
And THAT and WORSE is what has BEEN HAPPENING in Syria and Iraq.
Time to wake up, world
Well said.
I will also add that as for Syria in particular, Assad's regime has been having children killed and tortured on a daily basis for, what, four years? More? Not to mention the hundreds of thousands killed and displaced by the sheer d*ckery of the Assad regime.
Please note, however, that these statements apply to al-Qaeda, the so-called "Islamic State", and the tattered remnants of the Taliban, not to Islam in general - as was so brilliantly pointed out in that open letter Worffan linked to.
Oh, no I got it, but since you somehow thought it necessary to take on two obvious bait posts, I decided to take on your relatively weak response. Oh, let's leave out the other billion or so Muslims and focus on one police office who has an Arabic-sounding name, but we actually have no idea what his beliefs were and how seriously he held said beliefs (or lack thereof).
BBC was saying that the dead officer was Muslim, earlier, and apparently they got it straight from the French media.
I will also add that as for Syria in particular, Assad's regime has been having children killed and tortured on a daily basis for, what, four years? More? Not to mention the hundreds of thousands killed and displaced by the sheer d*ckery of the Assad regime.
Thank you - I actually just met a Kurdish singer who fled Demascus in 2012, and a Persian Jew whose family left Iran due to "restrictions" placed upon her family's faith. A coworker of mine is Assyrian, also from Iran. Her family fled from there as well, but not before her uncle was executed. They all have one thing in common - freedom of expression apart from the state religion is crushed on many levels, and it is endorsed by traditional religious beliefs.
Turkey is currently on a downward spiral away from it's secular society, so much so that a friend of mine who's Turkish believes that it can all be lost at any moment due to the policies of Erdogan and his cadre.
Comments
On the whole this has been the only thread where there seems to be a united front. Thank you for the wisdom to post this.
What is however interesting is that we may only see the "Nasty" side of the business.
I read an article a while ago about a find of documents and data from ISIS that details their more political sides and activities - which also implied that a large part of the money they made was spend on what is essentially "welfare" for the families of the ISIS soldiers.
These are obviously very powerful ways to make people sympathetic to your cause. But since this isn't much known or talked about, we in turn will just think what kind of monsters the other side must be for supporting such a murderous regime - but we don't really know what positives they bring to the people that support them.
Of course, no one can say whether such services could or would be maintained for long, even after a hypothetical ISIS victory, but - for the moment, it doesn't matter to anyone there.
Thank you for another pointless, bigoted comment that adds nothing to the discussion. Congratulations on being only marginally better than the parody Texan torturer in "The Dictator".
Were you two flaming bigots aware that one of the police officers who died in this incident was a Muslim?
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
No, see, police officers can't be mooslems. Only terrorists are mooslems and A-rahbs. It's an evil satanist cult of violence, you see.
</ruthless parody>
Most bigots don't have the time, brain capacity, or inclination to consider or comprehend the things coming out of their mouths. Or to notice small but important details. Or to not use and reinforce offensive stereotypes.
Reminds me of this thing I saw on this forum right after Nelson Mandela died. Somebody posted that they were talking in-game about how great a guy he was and how sad it was he was gone, and then some twit breaks in going why's everybody sad that a terrorist's dead?
Turns out the dumbass didn't even know who Nelson Mandela was and just thought the name sounded "terroristy".
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
...I think I saw that in-game, actually. IIRC it was in ESD zone chat. :rolleyes:
I've heard these jihadi and suicide bombers are promised heaven and 40 (or was it 70) virgins.
So exactly what's the point.
If there is a heaven it will be a place filled with such beauty and grace that everything else pales in comparison. Why bother with virgins if the experience of bodily interaction pales to the surroundings.
But let's go with the assumption that sex is something to be enjoyed there, i would imagine 40 virgins is not a blessing but a curse. Not even going with a comment from a former colleague stating that all those virgins would say is "Au" since the first time is usually not the pleasurable experience people make it out to be.
Let's assume that as a man you're confident in your skills and equipment, but let's also assume that the first virgin that comes your way does not share your opinion on both. You'll be left with 39 virgins snickering every time you arrive. How is that a blessing?
In heaven you will have an immortal body and no need for food or drinks. Again, why do you need 40-70 virgins? With no food or drinks you don't need them to waiter these things to you. All that is left is 40 women nagging and i can't imagine 40 women without the simple pleasures of life (food, drinks and sex) will stay in a good mood for long. Again, how is this a blessing?
Can someone explain these things to me?
(For the record, the representation of heaven is based on the assumptions made by jihadis and does not conform with my personal vision of "heaven")
Actually, you did...
As a non-believer, you have absolutely mo authority (as in Official Authority or Sanction) to claim at all on the subject... You may have read the Qur'an in the original Arabic (good on you, but remember, that only a minority of the world's Muslims are actually Arabs, so that is somewhat moot point to make :P ) but that does not allow you on to 'state with authority' on the subject, and in your post, you specifically said you could 'state with authority'. You may not have intended that to read as arrogant (and I appreciate that text often loses intended tone) but it did read thus. One cannot simply 'claim authority' in any subject which one studies (without coming across as a massive jackass) only something which one does in a professional capacity bestows such privilege... As a Muslim, and given your athiest beliefs, I felt that statement came across as massively arrogant, and while I do appreciate that you were discussing something you had read from your point of understanding, but by claiming to be able to 'state with authority' while you possibly did not intended it to be, it did come across as extremely arrogant... :-\
Honestly the feeling in NYC was shock, horror, grief and then acceptance and a determination to just get back to the business of life. I also traveled a lot and it seemed like the further you got away from it, the more people over-reacted to it.
It seems fear was the drug of choice for too many of my fellow Americans. The media and our government were happily dispensing it. The more fear we consumed, the more liberties we were willing to give up for the illusion of safety. Fast forward a decade and you don't have beat cops ingrained in a community, but storm troopers with assault weapons patrolling suburbia. By giving in to irrational fears, we've voluntarily done greater damage to our own society than any terrorist ever could. In many ways, we handed them a win.
I hope the French learn from our mistakes and temper their response.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
*and jihad merely means struggle, and refers to the Greater Jihad of being a better person, not the Lesser Jihad of combat...
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This may be a POV thing again; If I had a definitive text that summed up and defined my beliefs, and somebody else read it, I would be absolutely OK with that someone, having knowledge of the text, to claim authority on basic, clearly-defined concepts.
I won't claim to know, for example, the dates of every Islamic holy day, or the details of prayers and such, but I do consider having read the Koran to be a solid basis for making statements about broad concepts such as sacrilege and blasphemy in Islam.
As I said above, I would NOT consider someone who had access to and perused in its entirety a document detailing my religious beliefs (or in my case lack thereof) to be arrogant if they were to make statements about concepts discussed and described in said document.
Plus, I had this conversation with my Muslim friends (three Shiites, a Twelver, and two Sunni), and I have to admit that I've been paraphrasing them a lot. My friend from Jordan (for privacy I won't say her name) was the one who first made the "veneer of faux religion" comment, actually.
I apologize for not making this clear earlier.
I'm afraid the purpose still eludes me. In heaven i would imagine the close proximity to your God would be the reward and more than one could possibly comprehend. In the overwhelming presence of God (or Allah) why do you need any companions no matter now pure or flawless they are.
And that, is why you are not an authority on the subject, ergo cannot state with authority on the subject.
As immediately above, you might not, but others might... I've held my tongue a few times when you've made statements prefaced similarly by 'as a [subject of choice]ist...' but on this subject, it was too much to ignore, and as I said in my initial reply, someone only has the privilege of being able to claim authority, when they do something professionaly (or are acknowledged as experts in their field by their peers) Having an interest or studing something, doesn't bestow that privilege. That's not meant as a slam, as I know you've never meant any offence by such statements, but just to let you know, that it doesn't always convey as intended when written
Had you said "I can state with certainty" (because you're absolutely correct, those acts are all outright forbidden by the Qur'an) it would have been better than to say "I can state with authority". As mentioned (and I don't want to harp on about it) it's an unfortunate habit to have, and one I would encourage trying to break, because I am sure that arrogance is not the tone you intend to create :cool:
Different concept of heaven, TBH. You're using one interpretation (the one my dad uses), the ancient Greeks had another, a Russian Orthodox might have yet a third.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Ah. Here is the problem.
Thank you very much, I will definitely remember this in the future. Writing it on a Post-It to myself, actually.
My apologies.
No worries, as above, knowing you, I know you don't intend to sound arrogant, but it sadly can read thus, but if someone's not aware of a bad habit, they can't try and overcome it. It's all just context and phrasing :cool: And although I may not have been specific before, just to be clear, I was implying that Person X's peers would also be paid professionals/experts in their fields, not just someone's personal peers lending "Yeah, my bro's right!" support
While it is true that i am a Christian and view "Heaven" as the place where the faithful will spend eternity in close proximity to their God, i have spoken to Muslim colleagues and Muslims at the community center where i do volunteers work.
From what i gathered from those conversations the Muslim view on "Heaven" does not differ from the Christian view on "Heaven".
With that in mind, is it such a stretch that those Jihadi (to use the term loosely) use the same definition?
Je Suis Charlie says it all, and is all that needs to be said.
Fair enough. We did get a bit side tracked.
Yeah, the Orthodox take on Heaven and Hell is definitely different than the typical Western perspective though they definitely believe in such a concept (and I say ONE concept because the separation between the two is not "geographic," for lack of a better word...as in, leave your copy of the Divine Comedy at home, because it won't paint the picture
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Did you have to go to college to learn how to miss the point that badly? I wasn't flaming the gunmen that time, I was talking to those two morons in this thread who were painting all Muslims with the same brush.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Its not as if everything in the world was fine up until 1/7/15, and people's diverse beliefs and opinions were accepted.
So many Christians, Yizidis, Turkomen, Assyrians, Shi'a and Sunni men, women and children have been crucified, executed, beheaded, r4ped and sold into slavery JUST within the past 6 months. And I'm only talking about whats happening in Syria and Iraq, never mind Boko Haram in Africa and the car bomb that went off yesterday in Yemen that killed 37. Appeasement and false ideas of containment don't work.
Al Qaeda.
The Taliban.
The Islamic State.
They want us to either pay a tax for non-conversion (Jews or Christians only IF they're feeling generous), submit to their ideology and convert to hard-line Islam, or die. It really is that simple. There's no negotiating with them, or persuading them to "celebrate diversity." If you are an apostate or you slander their beliefs, they feel they are entitled and completely justified to kill in retribution.
THAT is what happened in Paris.
And THAT and WORSE is what has BEEN HAPPENING in Syria and Iraq.
Time to wake up, world
Well said.
I will also add that as for Syria in particular, Assad's regime has been having children killed and tortured on a daily basis for, what, four years? More? Not to mention the hundreds of thousands killed and displaced by the sheer d*ckery of the Assad regime.
BBC was saying that the dead officer was Muslim, earlier, and apparently they got it straight from the French media.
Let's keep this polite, guys.
Turkey is currently on a downward spiral away from it's secular society, so much so that a friend of mine who's Turkish believes that it can all be lost at any moment due to the policies of Erdogan and his cadre.