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Forums > Home› Ten Forward

Je suis Charlie

questeriusquesterius Member Posts: 8,463 Arc User
edited January 2015 in Ten Forward
While this section is non political for a reason i believe this deserves a mention:
As it happened Charlie Hebdo attack -BBC

My sympathies go out to the families and friends of the victims.
I condemn the actions taken by radicals, regret the attack on freedom of speech and fear that hate mongers will use this.
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Comments

  • fmgtorres1979fmgtorres1979 Member Posts: 1,327 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    All that they gained was precisely the opposite of their intention (the attackers, I mean).
    They did not shut anyone up, they made a lot of others speak up.
  • worffan101worffan101 Member Posts: 9,518 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Looks like ISIS-inspired lone-wolf gunmen. ISIS recruiters wouldn't have been dumb enough to pull a stunt like that, the gunmen clearly knew the place based on eyewitness testimony, and al Qaeda or an affiliate would've used suicide vests.

    It's three unemployed losers who were affected by the French government's complete mishandling of everything related to Islam, ISIS propaganda, and generalized youthful stupidity. Self-radicalized, in other words.

    Find 'em, catch 'em, and put 'em on trial. Make it fast and place a media hold on it so it doesn't turn into a circus.
  • questeriusquesterius Member Posts: 8,463 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    reyan01 wrote: »
    In the news this lunchtime, the gunmen are on the run, armed and dangerous. And a police woman has been shot, which is thought to be related.

    Peronsally hope that they find them and shoot them dead. No trial - just kill them; show them the same lack of mercy and disregard of human life as they themselves displayed - they are oxygen theives and their corpses deserve to be fed to the rats. DON'T put them on trial so that the Human Rights lobby can make stupid demands.

    It is because of their disregard of human life that i hope they're caught and put on trial.
    worffan101 wrote: »
    Looks like ISIS-inspired lone-wolf gunmen. ISIS recruiters wouldn't have been dumb enough to pull a stunt like that, the gunmen clearly knew the place based on eyewitness testimony, and al Qaeda or an affiliate would've used suicide vests.

    It's three unemployed losers who were affected by the French government's complete mishandling of everything related to Islam, ISIS propaganda, and generalized youthful stupidity. Self-radicalized, in other words.

    Find 'em, catch 'em, and put 'em on trial. Make it fast and place a media hold on it so it doesn't turn into a circus.

    Agreed.
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  • questeriusquesterius Member Posts: 8,463 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    reyan01 wrote: »
    Sadly a trial results in large expenditure of taxpayer's money, human rights lobbyists getting on their soapboxes about the extremist’s human rights, and unfortunately - more often than not - a sentence that doesn't reflect the severity of the crime.

    Well, that's how it works in the UK anyway.

    Considering that one of the first things the media in the Netherlands did was drag the local village idiot (a.k.a. Geert Wilders) in front of the camera i'd say there's not much difference between the UK and across the pond.

    Still, despite that it is more costly and takes longer i prefer justice to take its course instead of a public execution.
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  • burstorionburstorion Member Posts: 1,750 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Watching sky news in the UK, I was suprised they brought on this guy who basically called all the dead racist and 'demonisers of muslims' for publishing those cartoons god knows how many years ago before going on a three minute unrestrained spiel on how they were an underclass..

    ..I thought even sky was bound by the rules of impartiality instead of giving a stage for someone to slander the dead
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,441 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Two suspects are still at large, identified as brothers. They identified themselves as representatives of al-Qaeda In Yemen; however, given that they are in fact French nationals and no one from al-Qaeda has yet spoken up on their behalf, I'd say that might have been an association primarily in their minds.

    A third suspect surrendered at a police station after hearing his name linked to the attacks, which causes me to suspect that he may not have been connected after all. (Guilty terrorists generally either flee or prepare for a siege; they don't generally surrender peacefully before anyone even asks.)

    Source
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  • shevetshevet Member Posts: 1,667 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    We respect the human rights of terrorists and extremists for one moral reason and one pragmatic one.

    The moral reason: because we're better people than them.

    The pragmatic reason: because violating their human rights is actually what they want. For religious reasons, the murderers who perpetrated yesterday's atrocity want to die as martyrs... for practical reasons, they want their propaganda teams to be able to stand up and say "See how this so-called democracy tortures people and executes them without trial! How can anyone defend such a tyranny? See, our cause is just after all, join us!"... And if enough people fall for that, they can keep their whole grubby enterprise going.

    Provoking an over-reaction from the state is the actual purpose of most terrorist actions; it's basic to the theory of terror - Terrorism 101. (Literally so - this stuff was actually taught at places like the Patrice Lumumba University.)

    A fair trial, a just verdict, and an appropriate sentence is absolutely what they do not want. "See how this so-called democracy... confines multiple murderers in reasonably humane conditions!" is not going to work as a rallying cry.

    Martyrdom is what these guys want. I think they should get what they deserve, instead.
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  • gulberatgulberat Member Posts: 5,505 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Funny...I normally support the death penalty but for terrorists like this I actually favor life without chance of parole. I am not interested in supporting someone's perverted definition of martyrdom and if that means I have to pay through my taxes to ensure that they get to rot ingloriously in a cell, then I will do so.

    Regarding the cartoonists, I have not seen much of their work and don't read French well enough to think I would really understand (even though I speak Spanish, something relying so heavily on metaphor and symbolism would likely escape me in French), but even if their stuff was really offensive I am not about to justify their deaths. Victim blaming and shaming is something I will have NO part in whatsoever. If people want to yell, curse, fire back with their own offensive imagery, they can go ahead with that, but the instant someone's safety gets threatened, it's game over as far as I am concerned. I have zero tolerance for that.

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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Something that's getting lost in all the hullabaloo about an "attack on freedom of expression": The cop these two @ssholes murdered in cold blood outside the building was a man named Ahmed Merabat. He was a Muslim.

    Je suis Ahmed.
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  • gulberatgulberat Member Posts: 5,505 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Somehow it doesn't surprise me. Fanatics like that probably think Mr. Merabat became the enemy as soon as he put on the uniform. :-/

    No one ever accused terrorists of actual human decency. That is just another example of how any so-called "principles" mean nothing with such people. (Of course if principles mattered they would not be murdering ANYONE, regardless of how pissed off they might have been.)

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  • worffan101worffan101 Member Posts: 9,518 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    I don't usually support the death penalty except in extreme cases, and these guys are no exception. Life without parole in maximum security is the best option.

    It's also another example of how hypocritical jihadists are. Having actually read the Koran, I can state with authority that Islam specifically forbids murder, attributing "evil acts" to Allah, to declare somebody non-Muslim unless xe publicly expresses xir disbelief...

    Well, there's a list. Written by the world's top Islamic scholars, as it happens.
  • worffan101worffan101 Member Posts: 9,518 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    gulberat wrote: »
    Somehow it doesn't surprise me. Fanatics like that probably think Mr. Merabat became the enemy as soon as he put on the uniform. :-/

    No one ever accused terrorists of actual human decency. That is just another example of how any so-called "principles" mean nothing with such people. (Of course if principles mattered they would not be murdering ANYONE, regardless of how pissed off they might have been.)

    It should be noted that terrorists, especially ISIS, are technically speaking sacrilegious and blasphemous.

    Using ISIS as an example, the sacrilege is in (just as example, there are more reasons) torturing people (forbidden in the Koran), keeping slaves (forbidden by consensus of religious leaders early in Islam), killing journalists and aid workers (who count as emissaries under Islamic law, and thus are not to be harmed on top of the "don't kill people" provision), forcing conversions, declaring a caliphate without consensus from all Muslims, et cetera. The blasphemy is from attributing these evil acts to Allah.

    As the Letter to Baghdadi makes clear, these guys are evil, blasphemous, and sacrilegious.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,441 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    I don't support the death penalty as a punishment. Rather, I regard it as a sort of last resort, if someone is completely unable to be rehabilitated and reintroduced to society safely, to be administered with no more sense of vengeance than one might bring when being forced to put down a rabid dog.

    I want vengeance against these -- beings. I want them to spend long, long lives locked into cages the size of small apartments, afforded little privacy, given only those rights appropriate to a prisoner. And I want them sent there only after the niceties of the law have been observed, that none might say we acted rashly or in an uncivilized manner. I want them to never again see the sky save from a prison yard, or through a window occluded by bars; to never again be permitted to walk among free men.

    Their eventual punishment I will leave to Allah. I understand He doesn't think very highly of those who would kill noncombatants in His name...
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  • otisnobleotisnoble Member Posts: 1,290 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Up to now no one else was running those cartoons now every news organization has them in the headlines with bold red captions.
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  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    shevet wrote: »
    We respect the human rights of terrorists and extremists for one moral reason and one pragmatic one.

    The moral reason: because we're better people than them.

    The pragmatic reason: because violating their human rights is actually what they want. For religious reasons, the murderers who perpetrated yesterday's atrocity want to die as martyrs... for practical reasons, they want their propaganda teams to be able to stand up and say "See how this so-called democracy tortures people and executes them without trial! How can anyone defend such a tyranny? See, our cause is just after all, join us!"... And if enough people fall for that, they can keep their whole grubby enterprise going.

    Provoking an over-reaction from the state is the actual purpose of most terrorist actions; it's basic to the theory of terror - Terrorism 101. (Literally so - this stuff was actually taught at places like the Patrice Lumumba University.)

    A fair trial, a just verdict, and an appropriate sentence is absolutely what they do not want. "See how this so-called democracy... confines multiple murderers in reasonably humane conditions!" is not going to work as a rallying cry.

    Martyrdom is what these guys want. I think they should get what they deserve, instead.

    Which is why I kinda thing that the terrorists won... Because we have made more sacrifices for our freedom and done all kinds of bad things they can use to show that we are not the great , free and just countries that we claim we are.

    That's what everyone should think about when he's arguing for stronger punishments, stronger tools for the police, more surveillance - you're helping terrorists achieve what they want - destroying our freedoms. If our "Western" countries no longer offer an attractive living space and a positive life style alternative, then they gain or maintain their power.
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  • rainbowarcanarainbowarcana Member Posts: 38 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    shevet wrote: »
    We respect the human rights of terrorists and extremists for one moral reason and one pragmatic one.

    The moral reason: because we're better people than them.

    The pragmatic reason: because violating their human rights is actually what they want. For religious reasons, the murderers who perpetrated yesterday's atrocity want to die as martyrs... for practical reasons, they want their propaganda teams to be able to stand up and say "See how this so-called democracy tortures people and executes them without trial! How can anyone defend such a tyranny? See, our cause is just after all, join us!"... And if enough people fall for that, they can keep their whole grubby enterprise going.

    Provoking an over-reaction from the state is the actual purpose of most terrorist actions; it's basic to the theory of terror - Terrorism 101. (Literally so - this stuff was actually taught at places like the Patrice Lumumba University.)

    A fair trial, a just verdict, and an appropriate sentence is absolutely what they do not want. "See how this so-called democracy... confines multiple murderers in reasonably humane conditions!" is not going to work as a rallying cry.

    Martyrdom is what these guys want. I think they should get what they deserve, instead.

    I can't give you enough internets for this post. It's exactly spot-on. Shooting them like dogs is far too quick and easy and martyrdom is exactly what they want. The prospect of rotting ingloriously in a box for the rest of their miserable lives is a far better deterrent to any would-be imitators.
  • otisnobleotisnoble Member Posts: 1,290 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    mustrumridcully0 wrote: »
    Which is why I kinda thing that the terrorists won... Because we have made more sacrifices for our freedom and done all kinds of bad things they can use to show that we are not the great , free and just countries that we claim we are.

    That's what everyone should think about when he's arguing for stronger punishments, stronger tools for the police, more surveillance - you're helping terrorists achieve what they want - destroying our freedoms. If our "Western" countries no longer offer an attractive living space and a positive life style alternative, then they gain or maintain their power.

    Freedom is a razor's edge, on one hand you don't want to loose any of your hard fought freedoms but you still need to keep your people safe. Sometimes it takes sacrificing a few of your liberties to keep your people free. Isolation doesn't help for you can build a walled fortress reaching to the sky and think yourself safe but your enemies will always find ways of breaching that wall. Freedom costs blood, lives and liberties to hold. On the other hand we don't need a one world dictator taking all our freedoms away in the name of safety either. The edge is sharp and those who walk it must be vigilant and wise beyond measure.
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  • worffan101worffan101 Member Posts: 9,518 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    rainbowarcana wrote: »
    I can't give you enough internets for this post. It's exactly spot-on. Shooting them like dogs is far too quick and easy and martyrdom is exactly what they want. The prospect of rotting ingloriously in a box for the rest of their miserable lives is a far better deterrent to any would-be imitators.

    Very true. Jihadists are like Crusaders; evil, borderline insane dogs that believe that dying while killing and mutilating people will get them to heaven.

    Of course, most religions, and my own personal philosophy (I'm sort of an atheist), frown on this sort of attitude. Which is why one of my Muslim friends said while discussing ISIS that the possibility of any ISIS member not going straight to the deepest pits of hell is considerably less than the chance that each and every one of the ten guys in that conversation were to be simultaneously struck by the same bolt of lightning while each one was in a separate galaxy.

    Anyway. Very good point; jihadists view imprisonment as worse than a quick death, so give it to 'em.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,441 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    otisnoble wrote: »
    Freedom is a razor's edge, on one hand you don't want to loose any of your hard fought freedoms but you still need to keep your people safe. Sometimes it takes sacrificing a few of your liberties to keep your people free.
    Personally, I side with Benjamin Franklin on this matter:
    Benjamin Franklin wrote:
    Those who would sacrifice essential liberties to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither safety nor liberty.
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  • otisnobleotisnoble Member Posts: 1,290 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    jonsills wrote: »
    Personally, I side with Benjamin Franklin on this matter:

    Ben Franklin was one of the wisest men of his time and a staunch libertarian but even he gave of himself to garner a lasting freedom for his country.
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  • gulberatgulberat Member Posts: 5,505 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    I am not sure what in that rebuttal letter amused me the most: the <sarcasm>Good job, frakheads!</sarcasm> tone the scholars took in parts of it, the quote they included (not sure who was speaking) to back their position that quite literally asks, "What is WRONG with you?!?!" or that priceless epilogue at the end after they've taken every position apart on *legalistic* grounds. "Oh, as by the way, you aren't just idiots, evil, and wrong, but you just might be the devil." (I took some poetic license there but the "oh by the way" afterthought tone of that bit makes it that much sharper of a jab IMO.)

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  • worffan101worffan101 Member Posts: 9,518 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    gulberat wrote: »
    I am not sure what in that rebuttal letter amused me the most: the <sarcasm>Good job, frakheads!</sarcasm> tone the scholars took in parts of it, the quote they included (not sure who was speaking) to back their position that quite literally asks, "What is WRONG with you?!?!" or that priceless epilogue at the end after they've taken every position apart on *legalistic* grounds. "Oh, as by the way, you aren't just idiots, evil, and wrong, but you just might be the devil." (I took some poetic license there but the "oh by the way" afterthought tone of that bit makes it that much sharper of a jab IMO.)

    Between you and me, it's even funnier in Arabic.

    The best part about most criticisms of jihadist ideology is that the Koran quote most often used by jihadists is deliberately misinterpreted; in context, it's a little note saying "oh, by the way, if you're a soldier and the enemy's about to attack, it's OK to skip your prayers for the sake of basic practicality".

    The part where they insinuate that ISIS might just be servants of Iblis/Shaytan (the devil), though--that is by far the best part of the letter to Baghdadi. By far.
  • worffan101worffan101 Member Posts: 9,518 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Nabreeki, I'm not pretending to be an Islamic scholar. I'm saying that ISIS claims to be a fundamentalist Muslim organization, and reading from Islam's holiest text, they violate the holiest tenets of Islam.

    And then they slap blasphemy and being appallingly evil on top of sacrilege and being garden-variety evil.

    So do please try not to indulge your more sociopathic instincts; this is a serious matter. When I, a guy whose experience with Islam consists of having read the Koran, taking Arabic, and having Muslim friends (mostly of the Shia branch and various minor sects), am able to see that ISIS is blatantly violating the holiest tenets of Islam, I really don't see how attacking my credibility by saying that I'm not an Islamic scholar (which, I note, I never claimed to be) is going to help anything.
  • fmgtorres1979fmgtorres1979 Member Posts: 1,327 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    nabreeki wrote: »
    No, that is not want they wanted, most likely. It's probable that they wanted to ramp up Anti-Muslim sentiment in Europe -- something that was already occurring well before this attack -- in order to further alienate muslim immigrant communities throughout the continent in order to attract more disenfranchised young muslims to their cause. There is a push for a "Clash of civilizations" within certain strains of "Islam."


    (snip)



    Well, you may very well be right. People can have all kinds of missguided and distorted logics.
    But fortunatelly most people understand that their muslim neighbour has nothing remotely related to these guys.
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    fmgtorres1979 wrote: »
    Well, you may very well be right. People can have all kinds of missguided and distorted logics.
    But fortunatelly most people understand that their muslim neighbour has nothing remotely related to these guys.

    We can only hope.
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  • nunnyahnunnyah Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Don't forget to coat your ammo with the "blood of pigs"!
  • worffan101worffan101 Member Posts: 9,518 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    nunnyah wrote: »
    Don't forget to coat your ammo with the "blood of pigs"!

    Thank you for that tasteless, islamophobic comment that showed a superb job of utterly ignoring the very good points made by shevet, jonsills, gulberat, nabreeki, and others.

    I award you no points, and may Allah, Jehovah, God, the Hindu pantheon, the reincarnation process, the Aztec pantheon, the Inca pantheon, Satan (for Satanists), the Graeco-Roman pantheon, the Egyptian pantheon, and whatever other names people call their deity or deities have mercy on your hypothetical soul.
  • otisnobleotisnoble Member Posts: 1,290 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Sometimes radicalization is just a place for murderers and psycopathic sadistic monsters to hand their hats with no real religious meaning but usiing religion as confermation that they are OK. The leaders are hiding in holes in the ground while they send out children to be marters, this is not religion, this is cowardess and the worst kind of murder. There will be a special place in Hell for those who lead others astray.,
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  • fatman592fatman592 Member Posts: 1,207 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    This has been a pretty civil and reasoned discussion. In addition, the majority opinion here is squarely in the "don't shoot them like dogs" camp. And most importantly, many posts have a great deal of nuance about difficult subjects.

    My confidence in humanity has been bolstered for the day, thanks all.
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  • otisnobleotisnoble Member Posts: 1,290 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    worffan101 wrote: »
    Thank you for that tasteless, islamophobic comment that showed a superb job of utterly ignoring the very good points made by shevet, jonsills, gulberat, nabreeki, and others.

    I award you no points, and may Allah, Jehovah, God, the Hindu pantheon, the reincarnation process, the Aztec pantheon, the Inca pantheon, Satan (for Satanists), the Graeco-Roman pantheon, the Egyptian pantheon, and whatever other names people call their deity or deities have mercy on your hypothetical soul.

    There are radicals on both sides of the coin each calling for blood and desecrating religioius beliefs in the name of God when God thinks what they are doing is sin.
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This discussion has been closed.