Someone once told me, "Anything worth doing is worth doing right".
Why go this far and not have some character artist, who probably isn't too busy at the moment, spend an hour or two putting at least one M'Ress hair style in the game? Heck, I'd pay them directly to do that!!
So far as I know, the only character developer involved would be joejing. He's the one who posted in the linked thread saying the different head is what makes it too hard to be a quick fix.
Feel free to pm him your offer. He seems to be very open to ideas and feedback, based on the extra sliders he added to the tailor ui for delta rising and the related discussion on tribble.
Someone once told me, "Anything worth doing is worth doing right".
coughKDFcough
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,185Community Moderator
edited December 2014
Changing a map is different from changing a character model. Maps don't move around generally. So comparing this to an Environmental thing doesn't exactly work out very well.
Why do people keep blaming Taco for things that aren't part of his job?
Everyone has a list of ten (or more) things they'd like to see fixed or added to the game. I'd be willing to bet that for any two random players, no more than five - probably fewer - of the same items are on that list, and almost certainly not in the same order. And if you took out the easy obvious ones like "less grind", "cheaper dil", etc etc, you'll see even more variation.
What you think is very important means nothing to someone else, and vice versa. Arguing that one list is superior is pointless. (Especially since Cryptic has their own list, and Perfect World has theirs. Those two are always going to win, and when they differ, the latter.)
I find this explanation difficult to believe in the extreme. The Caitian FACE shape is different, yes, but the overall head is not. When we have a character generator with sliders that can change the proportions of the skull from tall and skinny to short and wide to almost cylindrical and long in the back, there should be no issue. The existing hairstyles already adapt to all the different skull shapes the sliders can create, so there should not be a problem letting them use humanoid hairstyles.
So, I see that after more than 100 pages in we are most definitely in the "...and other suggestions" portion of the original subject line. Andorian and Ferengi cat discussion. Mmmhhmmm...
Anyway, I finally broke down to look at the Caitians/Ferasans. I don't know if it's been mentioned by a dev already (and I have no intention of reading through 100+ pages!), but unfortunately the feline heads are a dramatically different shape so it's not just a simple matter of unlocking them. The hair just doesn't fit.
As some of you may have seen in earlier posts I would like a good sized overhaul over all the hairdos to make them look a lot better. And we should include the felines in that revamp when it comes...one day.
And at the end of the day the dev is the one working with the system day in day out, I too don't think there should be much of a difference, and believe me I would like to see big additions for the Caitians and Ferasens including a New Romulus style home world adventure zone but it's so remote it will probably never happen (I would pop for a full price LTS if they did though!)
Also as I have said this thread is pretty redundant as this has all been discussed in the Caitian/Ferasen art thread elsewhere in the forum!
And at the end of the day the dev is the one working with the system day in day out, I too don't think there should be much of a difference, and believe me I would like to see big additions for the Caitians and Ferasens including a New Romulus style home world adventure zone but it's so remote it will probably never happen (I would pop for a full price LTS if they did though!)
Also as I have said this thread is pretty redundant as this has all been discussed in the Caitian/Ferasen art thread elsewhere in the forum!
DR;TL version of your post: The Devs don't have to do their jobs.
DR;TL version of your post: The Devs don't have to do their jobs.
Just out of curiosity...what do you think the devs do all day long ? Twiddle their thumbs ? Pie-eating contests ? It's not like they're sitting around thinking "God, I wish I had something to do after pressing the magic content creation button.....". :P
Just out of curiosity...what do you think the devs do all day long ? Twiddle their thumbs ? Pie-eating contests ? It's not like they're sitting around thinking "God, I wish I had something to do after pressing the magic content creation button.....". :P
They have to grind dilithium for Gecko so they can reuse the content creation button.
Well, this is sure depressing. So many people using the excuse for Devs to slack off cuz HURR DURR CODING IZ TOO HARD. If they have the time to turn the entire platform in Winter Wonderland from wood to ice and toss in an old-school WarcraftIII tower defense map, then they certainly can spare a little time to allow Caitans to have some hair.
Yep, there are totally more players interested in playing as a cat and having a Jennifer Aniston hairdo than there are that play the winter event. DERP DERP DERP.
If it cannot be made profitable for cryptic, there is little incentive to do anything. And with all the furry people running around, most people seem fine with it enough to purchase their existing pack. If nobody purchased the Caitan race for a long time, then they might see that as something to improve to get that revenue stream back.
Sardak (Science Officer): Captain of a 23k DPS R'Mor Temporal Science Vessel, R.R.W. Vathos Odan Brota (Science Officer): Captain of a 28k DPS Scryer Intel Science Vessel, U.S.S. Kepler Patiently waiting for a Romulan Science Vessel
I'm finding the developer's word suspect. There is nothing I can see about the shape of the standard Caitian / Ferasan skull that would prevent standard human hairstyles from being used. It doesn't pass the smell test.
But the point of comparison is a little skewed. If you mapped the caitain geometry out onto a head with human facial featuers and textures the differences might become a lot more apparent (such as the placement of the ears or proportion of face to skull.)
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Look - it's about finally fixing something in-game that should have been done on the day they released Caitians. Giving a single CANON hairstyle to them.
I play a Caitian on my main, a Starfleet Science officer, and I think the Caitian models look great.
I'm sure it's not easy to make such an anthropomorphized model without it looking ridiculous. STO succeeded at making the models believable. If anything, I'd like more textures and patterns, so we could make Tabby Caitians and that sort of thing.
I also find it funny to play my Caitian while summoning my cat pet
The only example of a female Caitan was M'Ress, and although animated- she's connected to TOS.
Their rejection of things TOS is rather epic outside the one TOS bundle, so maybe that explains things.
Somewhat related, what happened to the Gorn? They look nothing like either TOS or ENT (I expect limits of the engine is responsible for the latter). And am I remembering wrong, but did they ship on release with a more TOS appearance?
Somewhat related, what happened to the Gorn? They look nothing like either TOS or ENT (I expect limits of the engine is responsible for the latter). And am I remembering wrong, but did they ship on release with a more TOS appearance?
You know if they would let us play as dinosaurs with laser guns like in the craptastic Star Trek movie game, that would actually be pretty boss. :P
Doesn't Cryptic have a standing policy of "once something is released never update it, even if it's only half done"?
There are exceptions. The Gorn updates I mentioned (they did happen, I just don't remember the details), the expansion of the Klingon story missions, etc.
But they *are* exceptions. I fear this is true of MMOs in general.
Somewhat related, what happened to the Gorn? They look nothing like either TOS or ENT (I expect limits of the engine is responsible for the latter). And am I remembering wrong, but did they ship on release with a more TOS appearance?
Gorn used to look like TOS Gorn. But they were ridiculous IMO, just like the TOS Gorn, and were changed.
Some people (a very few, I think I saw one, once) still have TOS Gorn pre-change, I think if you never visited the tailor afterward, you kept the old Gorn.
As for why it was changed, either because players asked or something else, I don't know, it was before my time in STO (I played during beta, but then I joined when the game was F2p).
Gorn used to look like TOS Gorn. But they were ridiculous IMO, just like the TOS Gorn, and were changed.
Some people (a very few, I think I saw one, once) still have TOS Gorn pre-change, I think if you never visited the tailor afterward, you kept the old Gorn.
Yes, I'm sort of recalling that now. I don't think I've ever seen one of the pre-change Gorns when I'm online.
Interesting isn't it that they didn't offer the option to still use the old models, but forced the new one on all but the first group of players.
Gorn used to look like TOS Gorn. But they were ridiculous IMO, just like the TOS Gorn, and were changed.
Some people (a very few, I think I saw one, once) still have TOS Gorn pre-change, I think if you never visited the tailor afterward, you kept the old Gorn.
As for why it was changed, either because players asked or something else, I don't know, it was before my time in STO (I played during beta, but then I joined when the game was F2p).
I remember all that. I've been around since beta. Frankly, it was a good change, although I think it's silly that they actually REMOVED options from the tailor for it.
I remember all that. I've been around since beta. Frankly, it was a good change, although I think it's silly that they actually REMOVED options from the tailor for it.
If Cryptic had the habit of keeping things, we would still have the exploration cluster. Or the old borg stf. Or Terradome. Or the old Mirror Universe queued mission.
Cryptic's way : when you can't fix it, remove it. When it works but you don't like it : remove it.
If Cryptic had the habit of keeping things, we would still have the exploration cluster. Or the old borg stf. Or Terradome. Or the old Mirror Universe queued mission.
Cryptic's way : when you can't fix it, remove it. When it works but you don't like it : remove it.
Yeah. Maybe it's just me, but my philosophy when it comes to game design is OPTIONS. The problem too many game developers have, is that they think they know what's fun. They don't. They only know what they think is fun. The fact of the matter is, the only person who knows that your player wants to play, is the player.
So I'm a big fan of giving people options, ESPECIALLY in what should be a largely sandbox game like STO. Older Gorn model looked stupid? Who cares, it doesn't cost anything to leave in and it gives people options. Now you have more people happy and it didn't cost anything. It's pure win.
However, that doesn't seem to mesh with their philosophy of removing options, then claim people are using what's left because they like it, and not because it's the only option remaining.
One issue with options is that each one adds addition regression testing to updates and future additions and thus expense. Would the new Christmas hats work on the old Gorn and how much pain would they catch if it didn't?
They may have decided to remove the TOS Gorn on that basis alone, and for the same reason used what I consider boring and simple Caitan models as well. That it fed the anti-TOS approach of STO was likely another bonus.
If this was their thought, IMO its flawed. An IP like this needs those options to make fans of it feel at home and able to make the characters they want, it's an overheard that can't be dropped without reducing the player base. I for example never brought the Caitan from the C-Store because they just looked wrong.
For now, while they're making money- they can pat themselves on the back for controlling expenses. But in the end each decision like this is a nail in the coffin. Drive enough nails, and like Star Wars Galaxies- the game is dead no matter how wonderful the IP.
One issue with options is that each one adds addition regression testing to updates and future additions and thus expense. Would the new Christmas hats work on the old Gorn and how much pain would they catch if it didn't?
They may have decided to remove the TOS Gorn on that basis alone, and for the same reason used what I consider boring and simple Caitan models as well. That it fed the anti-TOS approach of STO was likely another bonus.
If this was their thought, IMO its flawed. An IP like this needs those options to make fans of it feel at home and able to make the characters they want, it's an overheard that can't be dropped without reducing the player base. I for example never brought the Caitan from the C-Store because they just looked wrong.
For now, while they're making money- they can pat themselves on the back for controlling expenses. But in the end each decision like this is a nail in the coffin. Drive enough nails, and like Star Wars Galaxies- the game is dead no matter how wonderful the IP.
Well, I'm not going to NOT play as a race with a tail in any given game, regardless of how bad. That's just not an option.
That said though, the Christmas hat argument makes sense, but is flawed because they clearly don't care. For example, the Risian sunglasses on Caitian characters. They clearly don't have a problem with old parts not being compatible with new costume bits.
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So far as I know, the only character developer involved would be joejing. He's the one who posted in the linked thread saying the different head is what makes it too hard to be a quick fix.
Feel free to pm him your offer. He seems to be very open to ideas and feedback, based on the extra sliders he added to the tailor ui for delta rising and the related discussion on tribble.
coughKDFcough
Why do people keep blaming Taco for things that aren't part of his job?
What you think is very important means nothing to someone else, and vice versa. Arguing that one list is superior is pointless. (Especially since Cryptic has their own list, and Perfect World has theirs. Those two are always going to win, and when they differ, the latter.)
I'm just restating what the dev said here
And at the end of the day the dev is the one working with the system day in day out, I too don't think there should be much of a difference, and believe me I would like to see big additions for the Caitians and Ferasens including a New Romulus style home world adventure zone but it's so remote it will probably never happen (I would pop for a full price LTS if they did though!)
Also as I have said this thread is pretty redundant as this has all been discussed in the Caitian/Ferasen art thread elsewhere in the forum!
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
DR;TL version of your post: The Devs don't have to do their jobs.
But that's just my humble view. Ultimately, it's the dev's call when it comes to their priorities list.
Just out of curiosity...what do you think the devs do all day long ? Twiddle their thumbs ? Pie-eating contests ? It's not like they're sitting around thinking "God, I wish I had something to do after pressing the magic content creation button.....". :P
They have to grind dilithium for Gecko so they can reuse the content creation button.
We at least need that doff in-game.
Because he's visible and friendly and angry people who dislike cryptic attack anything they see. Anger isn't logical.
Yep, there are totally more players interested in playing as a cat and having a Jennifer Aniston hairdo than there are that play the winter event. DERP DERP DERP.
Odan Brota (Science Officer): Captain of a 28k DPS Scryer Intel Science Vessel, U.S.S. Kepler
Patiently waiting for a Romulan Science Vessel
Someone needs to replace that Geko with the lil' Australian one who sells car insurance.
But the point of comparison is a little skewed. If you mapped the caitain geometry out onto a head with human facial featuers and textures the differences might become a lot more apparent (such as the placement of the ears or proportion of face to skull.)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
I think they were based upon a single canon style, perhaps this one:
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Caitian?file=Caitian-black.jpg
That of course ignored this one:
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Caitian?file=Caitian-brown.jpg
...which I like better, but that is more beard/sideburns than a hairstyle.
But really, M'Ress was the first one and should have been an option from day one.
I'm sure it's not easy to make such an anthropomorphized model without it looking ridiculous. STO succeeded at making the models believable. If anything, I'd like more textures and patterns, so we could make Tabby Caitians and that sort of thing.
I also find it funny to play my Caitian while summoning my cat pet
The only example of a female Caitan was M'Ress, and although animated- she's connected to TOS.
Their rejection of things TOS is rather epic outside the one TOS bundle, so maybe that explains things.
Somewhat related, what happened to the Gorn? They look nothing like either TOS or ENT (I expect limits of the engine is responsible for the latter). And am I remembering wrong, but did they ship on release with a more TOS appearance?
You know if they would let us play as dinosaurs with laser guns like in the craptastic Star Trek movie game, that would actually be pretty boss. :P
There are exceptions. The Gorn updates I mentioned (they did happen, I just don't remember the details), the expansion of the Klingon story missions, etc.
But they *are* exceptions. I fear this is true of MMOs in general.
Some people (a very few, I think I saw one, once) still have TOS Gorn pre-change, I think if you never visited the tailor afterward, you kept the old Gorn.
As for why it was changed, either because players asked or something else, I don't know, it was before my time in STO (I played during beta, but then I joined when the game was F2p).
Yes, I'm sort of recalling that now. I don't think I've ever seen one of the pre-change Gorns when I'm online.
Interesting isn't it that they didn't offer the option to still use the old models, but forced the new one on all but the first group of players.
I remember all that. I've been around since beta. Frankly, it was a good change, although I think it's silly that they actually REMOVED options from the tailor for it.
Cryptic's way : when you can't fix it, remove it. When it works but you don't like it : remove it.
Yeah. Maybe it's just me, but my philosophy when it comes to game design is OPTIONS. The problem too many game developers have, is that they think they know what's fun. They don't. They only know what they think is fun. The fact of the matter is, the only person who knows that your player wants to play, is the player.
So I'm a big fan of giving people options, ESPECIALLY in what should be a largely sandbox game like STO. Older Gorn model looked stupid? Who cares, it doesn't cost anything to leave in and it gives people options. Now you have more people happy and it didn't cost anything. It's pure win.
However, that doesn't seem to mesh with their philosophy of removing options, then claim people are using what's left because they like it, and not because it's the only option remaining.
They may have decided to remove the TOS Gorn on that basis alone, and for the same reason used what I consider boring and simple Caitan models as well. That it fed the anti-TOS approach of STO was likely another bonus.
If this was their thought, IMO its flawed. An IP like this needs those options to make fans of it feel at home and able to make the characters they want, it's an overheard that can't be dropped without reducing the player base. I for example never brought the Caitan from the C-Store because they just looked wrong.
For now, while they're making money- they can pat themselves on the back for controlling expenses. But in the end each decision like this is a nail in the coffin. Drive enough nails, and like Star Wars Galaxies- the game is dead no matter how wonderful the IP.
Well, I'm not going to NOT play as a race with a tail in any given game, regardless of how bad. That's just not an option.
That said though, the Christmas hat argument makes sense, but is flawed because they clearly don't care. For example, the Risian sunglasses on Caitian characters. They clearly don't have a problem with old parts not being compatible with new costume bits.