My opinion is that the Iconians we see are all that's left, they were a less malevolent race, but the generations long after that eventually became this way.
are the iconians misunderstood? i very much doubt it and the reveal proves the one iconian who killed 6 klingons and stated things it said before disappearing on top of what we already know about them only confirms that the iconians are very much alive, arrogant and constantly plotting from the shadows still making the same mistakes they apparently learned from. what would be the iconians undoing is their own hubris and in knowing what the iconian plan is that they want their homeworld back and their empire probably and in knowing that there is no way the alpha alliance would give the iconians a moments peace to enact their own plans what ever they maybe, the tal-shiar/hakeev plot, 8472 vs. alliance ships deception, elachi attacks, vaadwuar, various subspace installations, 8472 cooper, the dyson spheres and various other plans they may have in the works. so far some of their plans are wrecked and at some point it will boil over again and the iconians will be even more angry. it could even lead to a greater strengthening of the a trio alliance back home, the very opposite of what the iconians want.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
At the end of the day it does not really matter. STO is not canon. Cryptic wanted to make the Iconians the "big bad" for the game, and CBS went along with it.
X years from now CBS could do something entirely different with the Iconians; and what they did WOULD be canon. CBS might decide they were evil or misunderstood saviors, or something else entirely.
If STO isn't going at least stay canon, then what's the point of playing at all? The "immersion" wouldn't be there for the players to enjoy. You may as well have Ewoks and Ponies in the game if that's the case.
If STO isn't going at least stay canon, then what's the point of playing at all? The "immersion" wouldn't be there for the players to enjoy. You may as well have Ewoks and Ponies in the game if that's the case.
STO can't stay canon, otherwise it cannot tell new stories.
But the Iconians as bad guys is not a violation of canon. It just means Picard's speculation was wrong. "Demons of Air and Darkness" and "bombed into oblivion by a bunch of other races" does not really sound to me like something you do to nice people.
It would be like the Federation members uniting to bomb Earth and defeat the humans, nick-naming them "Demons of Flesh and Bone".
But "Evil vs. Good" should be not the topic of Star Trek. Of course the Iconians have goals and wishes. They may be at cross-purpose with us and not nice, that doesn't mean they are evil. But also not that they are misunderstood. It just means we need to convince them that there is a better way.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Whatever the Iconians were, they are probably now driven by vengeance, and thousands years of breeding hatred for the lost of everything they hold dear probably didn't make them a nice and welcoming people.
It is a fascinating subject, but when you separate the fluff from the actual source... it's rather mundane. One interpretation is that it was actually a minor Greek city-state and located in the Aegean. I know, not as... interesting as Disney's version, but hey....
About a decade ago, the most popular theory was simply that Atlantis was a fictitious place deserving Plato's story. Probably imagined from an existing colony, or several, just like many fictions in today's world.
It could be fun if in thousands of years from now, archeologists are trying to find the city of Oz, Gotham city, or Metropolis.
But the Iconians as bad guys is not a violation of canon. It just means Picard's speculation was wrong. "Demons of Air and Darkness" and "bombed into oblivion by a bunch of other races" does not really sound to me like something you do to nice people.
But the Iconians as bad guys is not a violation of canon. It just means Picard's speculation was wrong. "Demons of Air and Darkness" and "bombed into oblivion by a bunch of other races" does not really sound to me like something you do to nice people.
A few centuries ago, a lot of explorers were cooked and eaten by some islands tribes. Or sacrificed to some god. I'm sure at least some of them were good people. Unfortunately, it seems they were also tasty.
SO let me get this straight...you think they weren't aggressive that maybe they didn't enslave those races that bombed them...then they decided that many centuries later they would come back and enslave a entire galaxy of peoples that have nothing to do with the ones who bombed them?
Aren't we grasping for straws a little here?
Nah, I think they are "evil" and were "evil" even back then. I am just saying Picard's statement could be in the realm of possibility.
It is a fascinating subject, but when you separate the fluff from the actual source... it's rather mundane. One interpretation is that it was actually a minor Greek city-state and located in the Aegean. I know, not as... interesting as Disney's version, but hey....
Lol... Yeah, I hear you.
I don't think the Iconians are around anymore. Instead of finding a massive civilization, I think core canon would say that the Iconians ended up scattered. During the twenty-fifth century, the Iconians look like a wide group of species. As a result of escaping to diverse worlds, the Iconians had to culturally and biologically assimilate with other species. Stories of Iconia are passed down as legends. Similar to the myths, cultures, and rumors of the Sumarians, Egyptians, Celtics, and Norse.
Rodenberry's writers would have made the Iconians interesting: however, I don't think they would have made the species into something overly fantastic.
According to the TNG episode, the Iconians placed a virus into their technology. If the state of their planet is of any indication, I bet the Iconians just want to erase the past. Other words, the events that took place were too horrific. In order to prevent themselves from being completely wiped out, the Iconians scattered themselves throughout the universe.
"Any sufficiently advanced race will always appear evil and cold to those sufficiently behind in technology on them."
And this for the simple fact, that we are simply too insignificant to the Iconians. The measure of their alleged evilness and/or goodness should be taken by the way they interact with peer races, and not on how they treat lowly humanoid species. Like the guy in Contact said so poignantly, "How guilty would we feel if we went and destroyed a few microbes on an ant hill in Africa?" Or, as I ask, *would* we even be guilty of something, by any reasonable account?! I, for one, would not have, say, Q judge humanity based on the way we treat those microbes on an ant hill in Africa.
"Any sufficiently advanced race will always appear evil and cold to those sufficiently behind in technology on them."
And this for the simple fact, that we are simply too insignificant to the Iconians. The measure of their alleged evilness and/or goodness should be taken by the way they interact with peer races, and not on how they treat lowly humanoid species. Like the guy in Contact said so poignantly, "How guilty would we feel if we went and destroyed a few microbes on an ant hill in Africa?" Or, as I ask, *would* we even be guilty of something, by any reasonable account?! I, for one, would not have, say, Q judge humanity based on the way we treat those microbes on an ant hill in Africa.
FAir enoguh.
But the gap between us and the Iconians isn't that big, I think. We don't have servitor ants on that anthill trying to divide the factions of microbes so we may be able to better control them later.
Whatever the Iconians were, they are probably now driven by vengeance, and thousands years of breeding hatred for the lost of everything they hold dear probably didn't make them a nice and welcoming people.
What he said.
It doesn't matter what they were like before their defeat. What matters is that they are evil now.
If STO isn't going at least stay canon, then what's the point of playing at all? The "immersion" wouldn't be there for the players to enjoy. You may as well have Ewoks and Ponies in the game if that's the case.
Canon is something that is always in flux. I can name at least a dozen things off the top of my head where CBS/Paramount changed Trek's canon simply because they wanted to tell a different story - and there is probably a list on Memory Alpha of a hundred or more such things. Trek canon is not titanium. It is soft, wet clay; and it always has been.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
If it transpires that they were benevolent once, it could be case of trying to convince them of the value of their forgotten former ideals.
There is nothing to remember. The Iconians of old are dead. Either we are speaking of the descendant of Iconians, that have as much to do with Iconians of old, than Italians with the old Roman Empire, or they are the same people still alive (immortal or whatever) and who have spent thousands years thinking about their losses.
In one case, they are nothing like their ancestors, and were taught for thousands years (!) generation after generations, how evil we are, and how much they lost. Or, they are people so bitter with grief and vengeance, they are blinded.
Would you consider making a treaty with monsters ? People that can only lie and deceit ? People that want you dead at any cost ?
To give an example, which is far less than almost genocide, on a smaller scale. In 1870, the Prussian (Germany of old) invaded France, and took some north-eastern territories. Between 1870 and 1914, French and German people were taught from a young age to hate the other side. Each side thought those territories was their, and nobody wanted to give up.
I've seen history books for 5-8yo children, where German soldiers are shown drinking blood and killing babies. On pictures. They are depicted as monsters, barbarian, doing terrible things to the French people of those "enslaved" territories. The same exist for german children with french soldiers, and how they "liberated" those territories.
Long story short, all this hatred, taught from a young age, lead to WWI and countless deaths.
That's not a first. Happened a lot across history. French and English during middle age, English and Scotland, or even Rome and Carthage. Old wound transmitted from generations to generations, until only lies and hatred are left.
What he said.
It doesn't matter what they were like before their defeat. What matters is that they are evil now.
Despite what I said earlier, I'm inclined to think they were always evil.
The Iconians, in many ways, remind me of the Reapers (Mass Effect), From what Picard said, it would seem the other races of their time got fed-up, and decided to band together to deal with them, once and for all.
Yeah. Whatever the moral reasoning a bunch of aliens got together to eliminate the Iconians. This was not one alien hating another alien - Andorians versus Vulcans. This was several alien species all hating the Iconians enough to want them completely eradicated. Whatever the Iconians were doing a bunch of aliens did not like it - even if the Iconians were just missionaries preaching the "word."
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
The Iconians can't just be one note though, that doesn't make an interesting adversary. So we could assume that not all Iconians may agree or go along with what is currently happening, or if they do there has to be a better reason for all of it than just simple conquest.
I've never had any problem with Iconians. His posts seem to be well thought out, and comes across as a well adjusted man. This does offer me some surprise given his Sig Pic.
Oh wait, you meant in game. I relate to them , as I'm a get off my lawn type of person in real life.
My mother always told me to walk away from a fight, The Marines taught me how.
I've never had any problem with Iconians. His posts seem to be well thought out, and comes across as a well adjusted man. This does offer me some surprise given his Sig Pic.
I believe already this post on page two may refer to a singular forum being called 'Iconians'. However it might just be an incorrect use of 'is' instead of an 'are':
Iconians is evil and missunderstood!... nuff said!
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, Toveg, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class. Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider. Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
I've never had any problem with Iconians. His posts seem to be well thought out, and comes across as a well adjusted man. This does offer me some surprise given his Sig Pic.
That's one of the nicest things anyone has ever said about me.
Heh, I was wanting to make the joke yesterday, but got tied up with animal Husbandry (anyone want a puppy? Brand new, just a day old.)
I'm surprised I remembered this morning, as I'm still hitting that first cup of coffee.
One of the interesting thing about the far distant past with ST, is that the Iconians and other races, may not have even had such concepts of good and evil. We can sit from our pretty blue planet, and try to understand given our own past and views of where we came , and where we are going, but other races may yet prove to be so alien in thought and manner, we will never be able to understand their motivations, if they are motivations at all.
They could just be like that wild wolf, protected it's heard. Not evil, just very dangerous if one gets too close.
@ Iconians, ya have to admit, you kind of stand out with that pic there. But seriously, you seem to be good folk.
My mother always told me to walk away from a fight, The Marines taught me how.
I'm going to go with evil of the moustache twirling style given that they killed the majority of the Klingon high council just because.
That and the whole getting the Solanae to do experiments on people that are horrific, getting the Elachi to try and turn the Romulans into food, turning the Undine loose on the Alpha Quadrant by deception, and in so doing causing a massive rift and a war between the two most powerful races of the Alpha Quadrant. There doesn't seem to be much to misunderstand here.
There is still nothing to prove that what we are dealing with in game is really actual Iconians, can still be someone impersonating them that has adapted their technology, after all, we do it ourselves all the time! *Looks at Dyson ships, Undine ground armor we use, borg parts, you name it*
I think if Cryptic really wants to pull more plot twists in the future, they'll probably reveal that we really actually are not dealing with the real Iconians of the past, maybe the Kelvans instead or something, considering the reference to the Andromeda galaxy being connected to the gateway system.
that would be nice. never liked iconians anyway. races bomabarded their planet and they were destroyed or nearly destroyed. but what happened to those races? where are they now? iconian story is cheap we should have different more interesting enemies. never understand what did creators of STO saw in iconians anyway.
The Iconians can't just be one note though, that doesn't make an interesting adversary. So we could assume that not all Iconians may agree or go along with what is currently happening, or if they do there has to be a better reason for all of it than just simple conquest.
doubtful, this race went into hiding after getting a major kicking for their own handywork, eventually the other shoe had to drop which it did. a race lost everything a home, a place, loved ones and their whole way of life. if you lost that much, would you forget your entire reason to live? to take revenge, to return home to build what was taken? besides that the iconians are master manipulators, they wouldnt dare tolerate their own people going native like that, i just cant see it happening.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Exactly. As one of the greatest philosophers that ever lived said "History is written by the motherf%^&*(& victor." -Sgt Blackburn, Battlefield 3
Yah but that's also a trope. History is written by the victors but its written by everyone else too and in the main long after said victors are dead. They may state things from their point of view but later generations invariably find more reliable evidence. For example: engineered parasites that burrow into your neck and overwrite your brain.
Kind of hard to argue about that (or personal transportation networks capable of accommodating genocide-scale battle tactics)...
The Iconians are evil (according to the definition evil figures take in history, ie. those who at a massive scale run counter to species survival and act strictly according to their own self-interest). There may be other reasons why they are evil (big universe, we know there's bad **** in subspace but that may only be the fault of worse things pressing down on them) but the fact remains that they are not unusual in fictional antagonistic factions in not having a whole lot of grey area.
They want power, they don't care who dies. We've got to stop them. Cue game.
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
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Comments
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
If STO isn't going at least stay canon, then what's the point of playing at all? The "immersion" wouldn't be there for the players to enjoy. You may as well have Ewoks and Ponies in the game if that's the case.
I never understood the Tovan Khev hate. Now, wanting to toss "Eppoh Girl" into a pit of rabid Targs I can understand.
STO can't stay canon, otherwise it cannot tell new stories.
But the Iconians as bad guys is not a violation of canon. It just means Picard's speculation was wrong. "Demons of Air and Darkness" and "bombed into oblivion by a bunch of other races" does not really sound to me like something you do to nice people.
It would be like the Federation members uniting to bomb Earth and defeat the humans, nick-naming them "Demons of Flesh and Bone".
But "Evil vs. Good" should be not the topic of Star Trek. Of course the Iconians have goals and wishes. They may be at cross-purpose with us and not nice, that doesn't mean they are evil. But also not that they are misunderstood. It just means we need to convince them that there is a better way.
About a decade ago, the most popular theory was simply that Atlantis was a fictitious place deserving Plato's story. Probably imagined from an existing colony, or several, just like many fictions in today's world.
It could be fun if in thousands of years from now, archeologists are trying to find the city of Oz, Gotham city, or Metropolis.
But the Iconians as bad guys is not a violation of canon. It just means Picard's speculation was wrong. "Demons of Air and Darkness" and "bombed into oblivion by a bunch of other races" does not really sound to me like something you do to nice people.
A few centuries ago, a lot of explorers were cooked and eaten by some islands tribes. Or sacrificed to some god. I'm sure at least some of them were good people. Unfortunately, it seems they were also tasty.
Nah, I think they are "evil" and were "evil" even back then. I am just saying Picard's statement could be in the realm of possibility.
I don't think the Iconians are around anymore. Instead of finding a massive civilization, I think core canon would say that the Iconians ended up scattered. During the twenty-fifth century, the Iconians look like a wide group of species. As a result of escaping to diverse worlds, the Iconians had to culturally and biologically assimilate with other species. Stories of Iconia are passed down as legends. Similar to the myths, cultures, and rumors of the Sumarians, Egyptians, Celtics, and Norse.
Rodenberry's writers would have made the Iconians interesting: however, I don't think they would have made the species into something overly fantastic.
According to the TNG episode, the Iconians placed a virus into their technology. If the state of their planet is of any indication, I bet the Iconians just want to erase the past. Other words, the events that took place were too horrific. In order to prevent themselves from being completely wiped out, the Iconians scattered themselves throughout the universe.
"Any sufficiently advanced race will always appear evil and cold to those sufficiently behind in technology on them."
And this for the simple fact, that we are simply too insignificant to the Iconians. The measure of their alleged evilness and/or goodness should be taken by the way they interact with peer races, and not on how they treat lowly humanoid species. Like the guy in Contact said so poignantly, "How guilty would we feel if we went and destroyed a few microbes on an ant hill in Africa?" Or, as I ask, *would* we even be guilty of something, by any reasonable account?! I, for one, would not have, say, Q judge humanity based on the way we treat those microbes on an ant hill in Africa.
FAir enoguh.
But the gap between us and the Iconians isn't that big, I think. We don't have servitor ants on that anthill trying to divide the factions of microbes so we may be able to better control them later.
It doesn't matter what they were like before their defeat. What matters is that they are evil now.
In one case, they are nothing like their ancestors, and were taught for thousands years (!) generation after generations, how evil we are, and how much they lost. Or, they are people so bitter with grief and vengeance, they are blinded.
Would you consider making a treaty with monsters ? People that can only lie and deceit ? People that want you dead at any cost ?
To give an example, which is far less than almost genocide, on a smaller scale. In 1870, the Prussian (Germany of old) invaded France, and took some north-eastern territories. Between 1870 and 1914, French and German people were taught from a young age to hate the other side. Each side thought those territories was their, and nobody wanted to give up.
I've seen history books for 5-8yo children, where German soldiers are shown drinking blood and killing babies. On pictures. They are depicted as monsters, barbarian, doing terrible things to the French people of those "enslaved" territories. The same exist for german children with french soldiers, and how they "liberated" those territories.
Long story short, all this hatred, taught from a young age, lead to WWI and countless deaths.
That's not a first. Happened a lot across history. French and English during middle age, English and Scotland, or even Rome and Carthage. Old wound transmitted from generations to generations, until only lies and hatred are left.
Despite what I said earlier, I'm inclined to think they were always evil.
The Iconians, in many ways, remind me of the Reapers (Mass Effect), From what Picard said, it would seem the other races of their time got fed-up, and decided to band together to deal with them, once and for all.
Commanding Officer: Captain Pyotr Ramonovich Amosov
Dedication Plaque: "Nil Intentatum Reliquit"
Oh wait, you meant in game. I relate to them , as I'm a get off my lawn type of person in real life.
OMFG why didn't I think of this!
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
Yes.
That's one of the nicest things anyone has ever said about me.
Heh, I was wanting to make the joke yesterday, but got tied up with animal Husbandry (anyone want a puppy? Brand new, just a day old.)
I'm surprised I remembered this morning, as I'm still hitting that first cup of coffee.
One of the interesting thing about the far distant past with ST, is that the Iconians and other races, may not have even had such concepts of good and evil. We can sit from our pretty blue planet, and try to understand given our own past and views of where we came , and where we are going, but other races may yet prove to be so alien in thought and manner, we will never be able to understand their motivations, if they are motivations at all.
They could just be like that wild wolf, protected it's heard. Not evil, just very dangerous if one gets too close.
@ Iconians, ya have to admit, you kind of stand out with that pic there. But seriously, you seem to be good folk.
If Axis powers had won WW2 how would their history books describe Jews?
That and the whole getting the Solanae to do experiments on people that are horrific, getting the Elachi to try and turn the Romulans into food, turning the Undine loose on the Alpha Quadrant by deception, and in so doing causing a massive rift and a war between the two most powerful races of the Alpha Quadrant. There doesn't seem to be much to misunderstand here.
doubtful, this race went into hiding after getting a major kicking for their own handywork, eventually the other shoe had to drop which it did. a race lost everything a home, a place, loved ones and their whole way of life. if you lost that much, would you forget your entire reason to live? to take revenge, to return home to build what was taken? besides that the iconians are master manipulators, they wouldnt dare tolerate their own people going native like that, i just cant see it happening.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Exactly. As one of the greatest philosophers that ever lived said "History is written by the motherf%^&*(& victor." -Sgt Blackburn, Battlefield 3
Real join date September 2012
Yah but that's also a trope. History is written by the victors but its written by everyone else too and in the main long after said victors are dead. They may state things from their point of view but later generations invariably find more reliable evidence. For example: engineered parasites that burrow into your neck and overwrite your brain.
Kind of hard to argue about that (or personal transportation networks capable of accommodating genocide-scale battle tactics)...
The Iconians are evil (according to the definition evil figures take in history, ie. those who at a massive scale run counter to species survival and act strictly according to their own self-interest). There may be other reasons why they are evil (big universe, we know there's bad **** in subspace but that may only be the fault of worse things pressing down on them) but the fact remains that they are not unusual in fictional antagonistic factions in not having a whole lot of grey area.
They want power, they don't care who dies. We've got to stop them. Cue game.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!