If they would like to see a mass exodus of there best players again then they should go ahead and implement something this stupid. I didn't quit over them stealing my spec points, allot did, this one I would quit over.
The problem in this game is that the player base has in large part chosen not to better themselves and that cryptic has chosen to, or is not able to, design content that actually makes a tank or healer/controller build useful. Hard capping DPS will not solve either of those problems, will just make those of us who have taken the time to learn the game mechanics and better ourselves quit.
Why should someone only doing 5k do the same stuff as someone doing 30k? As mentioned earlier, someone doing 5k does NOT know how to fly their ship, let alone use any of the gear put on it.
Why should their inability to pilot and build a ship mean people who can pilot and build ships have either no content at their level, or HAVE to carry the 5k player?
The 5k player needs to improve to actually function properly as a player - Any other system values the village idiot over Aristotle, and that never works.
My bet is the breakdown for playerbase vs dps is something like
25% of the players do less then 3k dps
50% of the players do 3k-6k dps
23% of the players do 6k-10k
2% of the players do more then 10k dps.
From all the runs i have done in the old pug elites you would normaly have 1 player doing 3k or less dps, 2 or 3 doing 3-6k and then the last one most likly being a 6-10k player but sometimes a 10k+.
The 3k or below group is not even trying i am sure you could do this much dps in a free tier 5 ship using autofiring mk 11 green weapons without using boff skills.
The 3-6k group is trying but usually has major build or piloting issue holding them back.
The 6-10k group usually has a good build but is either held back by really bad gear or piloting issues.
The above 10k group tends to stick to premades but these people have a good build ok gear and don't have major piloting issues.
For reference all of my new alts i have created and used free tier 5 ships or mirror ships with mk 11 blue or green gear have done near or over 10k dps right away at level 50.
So if your in the 3k or under group gear is not the issue same goes for the 3-6k group and even somewhat for the 6-10k group.
Aaaand your suggestion to bring some balance / equal footing to the game would be ?
... you know besides offering cookie cuter builds ...
1) Spend less time making butthurt emotional threads.
2) Spend more time learning the mechanics of the game and applying that while playing.
3) Profit, eh?
I've never been queued for an STF and thought "wow this person is doing way too much damage"
Actually I did, and it takes away from the fun, at least from "my fun". I remember awhile ago, when I got my scimitar pack and wanted to test the thalaron skill on various targets, often a desperate DPSer would ruin that...
As for a hard cap on DPS, that would be a great idea, but very hard to do. Becouse the very concept of DPS is very relative and innacurate, depending on case to case / mission to mission and ultimatly of play style.
For example, a person that plays "DPS style", often would "steal" someone's else DPS just by rushing in and having a very, well... desperate playstyle, rushing in, bfaving everything usually, while other players still buffing or launching pets and so on. Heck, it happened at times even when you lag out and by the time the map loads the first boss was dead, in old ISE for example. And that was despite the builds or ships... A lot of the brags that DPSers claim that they would carry the 2k dps ppl were based on this, since if given the chance, the low DPS ppl wouldve actually perform better. And also, in alot of times no1 carried anyone, if even the lowest would pull 3k-5k or what was the minimum to complete the old ISE. It was the DPSer CHOICE to do it faster, since even if he pulled 3k-5k dps would still complete the mission.
And in alot of times the low DPS of ppl is not about not knowing the game, how to build ships, its all about (well... was, since now in DR that choice is no more ) to have fun with various builds, RP inspired or not, and not to give a TRIBBLE about DPS. Its more about playing for fun not for numbers. This is (again was ) a Star Trek game, not a stupid Space Sim numbers game that turned out to be in DR.
But anyway, a better cut of the powercreep would prove to be limitting stacks on -dmg ress debuffs, limit alpha+GDF stacking or even better put a dmg ress debuff imunity on mobs, like the current placates are. Like if the mob is hit with beta/delta, FOMM or a disruptor breach debuff, after it expires should get a 15-30 secs dmg ress debuff imunity.
Becouse is not the ships alone the are responsible for those ridiculous DPS numbers, its about exploiting broken mechanics...
I think a hard cap on anything is bad, that said, something does need to be done about these staged dps runs.
I'll believe a ship doing 20k, heck, with a tac captain I can be persuaded that ship can do 30k but 50 is not something one ship can manage, 100k... see 50k and when somebody tells me their ship does 100k of course I'm going to decide they're a lying to me because I know enough about building a ship to know that a single ship doing 50k dps sustained just isn't feasible.
No, awful idea. You are punishing people for making good builds. I will never be a DPS God but fully respect those who can lay waste to enemies in PvE with killer builds.
D'Angelo said STO has ~100k Characters. If I go look at the DPS league table, I see that there are:
~1,250 Players parsed at >10k DPS
Of those 1,250;
624 are >20k DPS
301 are >30k DPS
112 are >40k DPS
42 are >50k DPS
17 are >60k DPS
8 are >70k DPS
5 are >80k DPS
4 are >90k DPS
2 are above 100k DPS
Ok , if we're theory crafting , using the list above , where would you put the Elite STF difficulty mark ?
See , I've said it before that as things are , if every (say over 80%) of the players were to have fun , we'd actually need 4 levels of difficulty , and not 3 .
Level 1 should be for players in the 3-6 K category .
Level 2 , 6-10K .
Level 3 , 10-20K
Level 4 , 20- ... insert your choice . Using the chart above I'd go with between 50-60 .
But since we don't have 4 level of difficulty , they (Cryptic) have to cram all the players into 3 levels ... , meaning that seemingly more ppl get shortchanged one way or another .
If there was a cap (or diminishing returns , as others suggested) , maybe we would fit better as a whole into those 3 levels of difficulty , then we do now .
Also, the Scimitar, while pretty much top dog on dps (mainly due to the pets which are to be nerfed soon)...really isn't OP. Yes, it can do absolutely insane dps, but you have to pull everything defensive off the ship to do it. I run without any hull plating of any kind, and I get pretty much flattened the instant my shield goes down...and sometimes I die from bleedthrough damage with the shield still up.
If I couldn't respawn, I'd build my ship differently...and it wouldn't do nearly as much damage. But being able to respawn in a map (other than No Win Scenario obviously) means that dying once and having a few seconds of downtime still puts me ahead on dps...so I'm willing to run without hull plating. I could run a single hull plating if I ran beams...but I like my cannons too much, so I run a RCS instead.
The insane damage numbers also all come from Beam FAW since it has 100% coverage...and Intelligence Fleet II makes it do just stupid damage. As for the 100k+ video, he's got lots of ppl putting attack pattern beta up, and they're probably all using disruptors or rom plas to further debuff the targets to push the one guy over 100k.
If targets are clustered, then cannons can out dps beams...but with every new expansion, the ships seem to be more and more of a FU to cannon users, since they spread out and now even use evasive maneuvers if they get caught in a gravity well.
I think that both players and Devs can agree that DPS is out of control in this game , and in more then one way it hurts the players and the game .
It breaks up the cohesievnes of the playerbase , and it makes it very hard to the Devs to program an "effective" foe , when one players DPS is close to the floor and anothers is through the roof .
And speaking of a roof , I think that that is what is needed , with a few caveats , the most important one being that every 1-2 years , the devs would up the roof , and create content for that new level (unlike raising the whole level of the game as they tried and failed to do with DR) .
I'm not sure what the Cap should be ... .
Some would be happy with 20K , others with 30K minimum -- while others still would hate this idea as a whole .
In the end , I think that the cap should be x1.5 or x2 of the average DPS in game that is displayed by the majority of the playerbase as a whole .
This could also put more emphasis on how you create damage and not just on how much damage you create .
Plus , better balanced fos would lead to better balanced equipment and the fear of the constant nerfs would hopefully go away for the most part .
It would also "force" the Devs to create more interesting powers (or visualizations) like we got in DR (which were overshadowed by the rage , the HP scandal and all the other bad things that happened .
It could also give the chance to add some of the new powers to the Borg as they ... you know ... assimilate stuffs ...
(now that's a "can I haz ur stuffs" that could work ... )
... anyho , just an idea ... , prolly never gonna happen ... -- Cryptic has to sell you the latest overpowered or broken gimmick that has not been tested on how it interacts with other broken or overpowered gimmicks ... , so we'll just keep on rolling on this Spanish Train ...
Why not? It might inspire some good'ol variety to take hold in this game. Oh, and it would drive das uber DPS kids absolutely bonkers! Oh, don't worry about the "best" players leaving either, they can always be replaced.
the problem is shared damage boosts being stacked by people who know how to exploit flws in teh game mechanics.
Heh...that's cute. Teamwork is an exploit. A definite flaw in the game...the devs should have known that despite the majority of players wanting to chase butterflies while pretending there is nobody else in the group, that some people might actually work together. Damn Cryptic and their lack of foresight on this issue...they should have known there was a slight chance that some folks might actually work together. Is this quite possibly the biggest blunder on Cryptic's part?
The only thing you can look forward to in this game, is to improve something. If you can't improve anything by default, you kill the primary incentive to log in. That is as they say, not very healthy.
This reply pretty much sums up my sentimens on this topic as well.
Dps cap will never happen as some other have said players would get to the cap and stop buying new ships or upgrading gear leading to a loss in money for cryptic which will never happen.
I think a hard cap on anything is bad, that said, something does need to be done about these staged dps runs.
I'll believe a ship doing 20k, heck, with a tac captain I can be persuaded that ship can do 30k but 50 is not something one ship can manage, 100k... see 50k and when somebody tells me their ship does 100k of course I'm going to decide they're a lying to me because I know enough about building a ship to know that a single ship doing 50k dps sustained just isn't feasible.
You do realise there is a bunch of players who can do 50k plus. We even have Feds doing 50k now.
We've had 80k DPS plus for quite some time - your knowledge is out of date, especially if you think you need a Tac to exceed 30k. (for now, it is all up in the air until we get a grip on DR's power leaping, it is that massive - as said earlier, I fully expect a 150k DPS run in the coming months)
20k is an amount any ship with any captain could put out - Pre-DR, 20k was any ship with a Tac Captain.
against. absolutely. This may be a repost, it ate my other one or I cant find it.
a few main points:
- caps indicate a flawed game; it usually means the game is too easy or designed for casual half-play.
- it stops micro transactions. Who is gonna upgrade ship or gear etc if they can't see any increase in anything from doing so?
- its boring. Tinker on ships is fun for many. Tinker with no result, not so fun. /ragequit will happen.
- it opens a door for caps in other areas, like hit points, shield points, healing, power levels -- all sorts of things.
- it does not fix any problems. Chopping down a tree with a butterknife vs using saw is not more fun, or more challenging, or anything. It just takes longer. Challenge us by making the enemy smarter, better at piloting and using defense skills like heal or escaping our tractor/GW/etc. Or fix the quality/quantity issue by having fewer ships that are smarter, harder hitting, faster, challenging. The main issue of dps is aoe dps which is used against weak hordes of enemy because the content is all hordes of weak enemy.
If the developers had not started selling power creep, then it would be a good idea. However, the first time they started selling power creep, they stopped this idea from being done. If they do it now, they will have more players quit.
The only time the power creep is actually a problem is when doing PVP. The reason is because when doing non-PVP, the higher DPS players are helping, as long as they know what they are doing. But there are even more players that don't do much DPS that do more harm than good because they don't know what they are doing.
For example, the only reason someone should have a problem with a player in the Scimitar, that throws out more DPS than them, is if the Scimitar player screwed up, and cost the mission because they don't know how to work as a team or what they are doing. If the high DPS player, no matter what ship or class, helps finish the mission faster, they just helped you, not hurt you.
If there is a cap on the DPS, not only will it kill a lot of income for the game, it will hurt those that can't get high DPS.
Just like one group of players asking the developers to nerf a ship because they can't get that high of DPS with their ships. Only time this is a real issue is when doing a mission that has a placement strictly on the amount of DPS alone.
Lately the Scimitar is again the focus of attack by players that can't do that high of DPS. However, if the Scimitar is nerfed, then the Kumar and J'Hem dreadnought will be attacked for their DPS. And when enough players have spent enough time on the new T6 ships and get higher DPS than other players that don't have them, they will be attacked.
Let high DPS players have their high DPS. The ones that have it and don't know how to work in a team, or know what they are doing are not hurting anymore than those that are too underpowered, and don't know what they are doing.
PVP is so unbalanced in this game that it will take more than nerfing one OP ship. It needs to be handled separate from non-PVP, and adjustments for skills, consoles, weapons, etc. not affect the non-PVP side of the game.
Leader of Elite Guardian Academy.Would you like to learn how to run a fleet? Would you like to know how to do ship builds (true budget as well as high end)?The join the Academy today!
What Cryptic does need to do is fix and balance their frackin' game so that not everything is about how much DPS you do.
Fix the AI so that you're penalized for having glass cannons. Fix Science Ships so that their CC is worth something other then DPS. Fix the broken BOff abilities that no one takes because they have zero purpose in the game.
Balance energy weapons out so that certain types of energy weapons don't totally outperform others, giving the others a true purpose grounded in reality and not in the imagination fantasy lands of the devs. Same with torps.
So no we don't need to cap DPS. The devs need to start developing the game based around reality and not based on whatever fantasy mirror universe they currently live in.
And for the love of the Prophet's, stop making DPS the only thing you need in this game.
No, they should improve NPC's by giving them more boff abilities and better AI. Make it so DPS isn't the only thing needed to win. Give some NPC's feedback pulse or RSP, make some NPC's healers that uses extend shields, hazard emitters, etc on other NPC's, make the healer super tanky so using abilities to disable or push the healer NPC becomes a better option then just DPS.
I wouldn't say put a cap on the actual dps, but rather set up a cap for the missions themselves. A poi t system, if you will. The devs determine the minimum total dps needed to successfully complete a specific stf, and they set a limit on the combined total dps a team can have. So instead of a team of 5 players all with 30-50k dps, you might have a team of 3 with a total of 80k. This would make players think about what they need more in an stf, because 2 players with max possible dps won't be able to complete certain stfs alone, theyd need to scale back their damage output to allow more room for other supporting players.
Look, people have worked out how to improve their DPS and some people have worked out how to get crazy mad DPS. Which means anyone can work it out. So if they can do it, you can do it. Lets not punish the one that can, just because the people who can't be bothered, and yes, it is a case of, they can't be bothered.
Comments
The problem in this game is that the player base has in large part chosen not to better themselves and that cryptic has chosen to, or is not able to, design content that actually makes a tank or healer/controller build useful. Hard capping DPS will not solve either of those problems, will just make those of us who have taken the time to learn the game mechanics and better ourselves quit.
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Why should their inability to pilot and build a ship mean people who can pilot and build ships have either no content at their level, or HAVE to carry the 5k player?
The 5k player needs to improve to actually function properly as a player - Any other system values the village idiot over Aristotle, and that never works.
25% of the players do less then 3k dps
50% of the players do 3k-6k dps
23% of the players do 6k-10k
2% of the players do more then 10k dps.
From all the runs i have done in the old pug elites you would normaly have 1 player doing 3k or less dps, 2 or 3 doing 3-6k and then the last one most likly being a 6-10k player but sometimes a 10k+.
The 3k or below group is not even trying i am sure you could do this much dps in a free tier 5 ship using autofiring mk 11 green weapons without using boff skills.
The 3-6k group is trying but usually has major build or piloting issue holding them back.
The 6-10k group usually has a good build but is either held back by really bad gear or piloting issues.
The above 10k group tends to stick to premades but these people have a good build ok gear and don't have major piloting issues.
For reference all of my new alts i have created and used free tier 5 ships or mirror ships with mk 11 blue or green gear have done near or over 10k dps right away at level 50.
So if your in the 3k or under group gear is not the issue same goes for the 3-6k group and even somewhat for the 6-10k group.
1) Spend less time making butthurt emotional threads.
2) Spend more time learning the mechanics of the game and applying that while playing.
3) Profit, eh?
Actually I did, and it takes away from the fun, at least from "my fun". I remember awhile ago, when I got my scimitar pack and wanted to test the thalaron skill on various targets, often a desperate DPSer would ruin that...
As for a hard cap on DPS, that would be a great idea, but very hard to do. Becouse the very concept of DPS is very relative and innacurate, depending on case to case / mission to mission and ultimatly of play style.
For example, a person that plays "DPS style", often would "steal" someone's else DPS just by rushing in and having a very, well... desperate playstyle, rushing in, bfaving everything usually, while other players still buffing or launching pets and so on. Heck, it happened at times even when you lag out and by the time the map loads the first boss was dead, in old ISE for example. And that was despite the builds or ships... A lot of the brags that DPSers claim that they would carry the 2k dps ppl were based on this, since if given the chance, the low DPS ppl wouldve actually perform better. And also, in alot of times no1 carried anyone, if even the lowest would pull 3k-5k or what was the minimum to complete the old ISE. It was the DPSer CHOICE to do it faster, since even if he pulled 3k-5k dps would still complete the mission.
And in alot of times the low DPS of ppl is not about not knowing the game, how to build ships, its all about (well... was, since now in DR that choice is no more
But anyway, a better cut of the powercreep would prove to be limitting stacks on -dmg ress debuffs, limit alpha+GDF stacking or even better put a dmg ress debuff imunity on mobs, like the current placates are. Like if the mob is hit with beta/delta, FOMM or a disruptor breach debuff, after it expires should get a 15-30 secs dmg ress debuff imunity.
Becouse is not the ships alone the are responsible for those ridiculous DPS numbers, its about exploiting broken mechanics...
I'll believe a ship doing 20k, heck, with a tac captain I can be persuaded that ship can do 30k but 50 is not something one ship can manage, 100k... see 50k and when somebody tells me their ship does 100k of course I'm going to decide they're a lying to me because I know enough about building a ship to know that a single ship doing 50k dps sustained just isn't feasible.
make it happen and I'll quit the game for sure!
Ok , if we're theory crafting , using the list above , where would you put the Elite STF difficulty mark ?
See , I've said it before that as things are , if every (say over 80%) of the players were to have fun , we'd actually need 4 levels of difficulty , and not 3 .
Level 1 should be for players in the 3-6 K category .
Level 2 , 6-10K .
Level 3 , 10-20K
Level 4 , 20- ... insert your choice . Using the chart above I'd go with between 50-60 .
But since we don't have 4 level of difficulty , they (Cryptic) have to cram all the players into 3 levels ... , meaning that seemingly more ppl get shortchanged one way or another .
If there was a cap (or diminishing returns , as others suggested) , maybe we would fit better as a whole into those 3 levels of difficulty , then we do now .
Also, the Scimitar, while pretty much top dog on dps (mainly due to the pets which are to be nerfed soon)...really isn't OP. Yes, it can do absolutely insane dps, but you have to pull everything defensive off the ship to do it. I run without any hull plating of any kind, and I get pretty much flattened the instant my shield goes down...and sometimes I die from bleedthrough damage with the shield still up.
If I couldn't respawn, I'd build my ship differently...and it wouldn't do nearly as much damage. But being able to respawn in a map (other than No Win Scenario obviously) means that dying once and having a few seconds of downtime still puts me ahead on dps...so I'm willing to run without hull plating. I could run a single hull plating if I ran beams...but I like my cannons too much, so I run a RCS instead.
The insane damage numbers also all come from Beam FAW since it has 100% coverage...and Intelligence Fleet II makes it do just stupid damage. As for the 100k+ video, he's got lots of ppl putting attack pattern beta up, and they're probably all using disruptors or rom plas to further debuff the targets to push the one guy over 100k.
If targets are clustered, then cannons can out dps beams...but with every new expansion, the ships seem to be more and more of a FU to cannon users, since they spread out and now even use evasive maneuvers if they get caught in a gravity well.
Why not? It might inspire some good'ol variety to take hold in this game. Oh, and it would drive das uber DPS kids absolutely bonkers! Oh, don't worry about the "best" players leaving either, they can always be replaced.
Heh...that's cute. Teamwork is an exploit. A definite flaw in the game...the devs should have known that despite the majority of players wanting to chase butterflies while pretending there is nobody else in the group, that some people might actually work together. Damn Cryptic and their lack of foresight on this issue...they should have known there was a slight chance that some folks might actually work together. Is this quite possibly the biggest blunder on Cryptic's part?
This reply pretty much sums up my sentimens on this topic as well.
You do realise there is a bunch of players who can do 50k plus. We even have Feds doing 50k now.
We've had 80k DPS plus for quite some time - your knowledge is out of date, especially if you think you need a Tac to exceed 30k. (for now, it is all up in the air until we get a grip on DR's power leaping, it is that massive - as said earlier, I fully expect a 150k DPS run in the coming months)
20k is an amount any ship with any captain could put out - Pre-DR, 20k was any ship with a Tac Captain.
Those pets are worth less than one weapon to a 100k DPS Scim. You don't have a clue if you think it is due to the pets.
a few main points:
- caps indicate a flawed game; it usually means the game is too easy or designed for casual half-play.
- it stops micro transactions. Who is gonna upgrade ship or gear etc if they can't see any increase in anything from doing so?
- its boring. Tinker on ships is fun for many. Tinker with no result, not so fun. /ragequit will happen.
- it opens a door for caps in other areas, like hit points, shield points, healing, power levels -- all sorts of things.
- it does not fix any problems. Chopping down a tree with a butterknife vs using saw is not more fun, or more challenging, or anything. It just takes longer. Challenge us by making the enemy smarter, better at piloting and using defense skills like heal or escaping our tractor/GW/etc. Or fix the quality/quantity issue by having fewer ships that are smarter, harder hitting, faster, challenging. The main issue of dps is aoe dps which is used against weak hordes of enemy because the content is all hordes of weak enemy.
No progression and competition=no point to play game.
I thought the punishment in MI was spending the whole timer being the only one actually closing gates.
The minute or two break is a nice little reward of rest from the grind.
The only time the power creep is actually a problem is when doing PVP. The reason is because when doing non-PVP, the higher DPS players are helping, as long as they know what they are doing. But there are even more players that don't do much DPS that do more harm than good because they don't know what they are doing.
For example, the only reason someone should have a problem with a player in the Scimitar, that throws out more DPS than them, is if the Scimitar player screwed up, and cost the mission because they don't know how to work as a team or what they are doing. If the high DPS player, no matter what ship or class, helps finish the mission faster, they just helped you, not hurt you.
If there is a cap on the DPS, not only will it kill a lot of income for the game, it will hurt those that can't get high DPS.
Just like one group of players asking the developers to nerf a ship because they can't get that high of DPS with their ships. Only time this is a real issue is when doing a mission that has a placement strictly on the amount of DPS alone.
Lately the Scimitar is again the focus of attack by players that can't do that high of DPS. However, if the Scimitar is nerfed, then the Kumar and J'Hem dreadnought will be attacked for their DPS. And when enough players have spent enough time on the new T6 ships and get higher DPS than other players that don't have them, they will be attacked.
Let high DPS players have their high DPS. The ones that have it and don't know how to work in a team, or know what they are doing are not hurting anymore than those that are too underpowered, and don't know what they are doing.
PVP is so unbalanced in this game that it will take more than nerfing one OP ship. It needs to be handled separate from non-PVP, and adjustments for skills, consoles, weapons, etc. not affect the non-PVP side of the game.
What Cryptic does need to do is fix and balance their frackin' game so that not everything is about how much DPS you do.
Fix the AI so that you're penalized for having glass cannons. Fix Science Ships so that their CC is worth something other then DPS. Fix the broken BOff abilities that no one takes because they have zero purpose in the game.
Balance energy weapons out so that certain types of energy weapons don't totally outperform others, giving the others a true purpose grounded in reality and not in the imagination fantasy lands of the devs. Same with torps.
So no we don't need to cap DPS. The devs need to start developing the game based around reality and not based on whatever fantasy mirror universe they currently live in.
And for the love of the Prophet's, stop making DPS the only thing you need in this game.
On that notion, I do think the reigns need to be loosened some on resists and science.
I can go with that. But right now, resists have such sharp diminishing returns compared to other offensive skills.
This x5000. At least it would be a start. Defense modifiers have diminishing returns I don't understand why damage modifiers doesn't.
People spend lots of $$ in order to improve their boats, and to do that AFTER a DPS cap is put in place? I doubt Cryptic is that silly.
Look, people have worked out how to improve their DPS and some people have worked out how to get crazy mad DPS. Which means anyone can work it out. So if they can do it, you can do it. Lets not punish the one that can, just because the people who can't be bothered, and yes, it is a case of, they can't be bothered.