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Hardcap on DPS -- for or against ?

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  • chuckingramchuckingram Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    The OP should spend more time improving his ship and less time posting terrible ideas.

    Meaning we should comb through tons of data looking for near-exploit, costly builds that someone else, without a life, dreamed up?

    In this "pay to win" world, I think the OP's idea deserves consideration by Cryptic
  • bdzigostbdzigost Member Posts: 16 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Hardcap? NO. Similiar algorithm to damage increase as it is for damage resistance - YES.
    But damage increase is not the only problem. All aspects should be reworked. You can have up to 5 superior romulan operatives traits, but you can only have one subtefuge trait. I think only one operative trait should be active, many consoles should be reworked, captains abilities, new RnD abilities (science trait is way too powerfull).
    Currently all but one proffesions (TAC) are obsolete. Make the game so that all proffesions can have fun. Currently if you are not a TAC captain, you are obsolete, you cant play on elite because youre dps is too low, youre a handicap not a boost to your team. The game needs BALANCE.
  • aelfwin1aelfwin1 Member Posts: 2,896 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    sinn74 wrote: »
    How would they keep adding power creep (read: sell lockboxes) if they do this?

    Interesting powers & gimmicks + purty ships ... , like they have done with more then a few of their ships thus far ... .

    I'll also point out that this thread was based on some of the ideas from this thread (Least Successful Nerf of all Time) , in which playes commented that Cryptic took away their ability to enable all their Rep powers on one had , and gave us the Specializations, which all in all are more passives & they are even more powerful .

    How on earth do you expect to see a balanced game like this , not to mention a game where somewhere along the line new players and old ones play side by side to have fun ?
  • cbrjwrrcbrjwrr Member Posts: 2,782 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    No.


    Just firing 8 White Mk XI beams at close range at 125 weapons power is a minimum of 6k DPS - as in, base damage after 125 weapons power level of minimum. Fill out the rest of the gear to a typical player specification, and 6k becomes between 7 and 9k DPS.

    This is your 1.5x average player point - we have only got as far as just putting 8 beams and some equipment on a Cruiser.


    With current DR powercreep, a Fleet Galaxy Retrofit (you know, the ship dismissed due to its lack of Tac anything) has been taken to 40k DPS.

    Even if you capped at ten times the average player it is still too harsh a cap.
  • dragonsbrethrendragonsbrethren Member Posts: 1,854 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    cbrjwrr wrote: »
    With current DR powercreep, a Fleet Galaxy Retrofit (you know, the ship dismissed due to its lack of Tac anything) has been taken to 40k DPS.

    Nice! Well, not so much, I think the powercreep is ridiculous, but still, a Galaxy did that!
  • fenr00kfenr00k Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    No to nerfs! Nerfs are not about balance, they're usually just a way to upset players.

    Yes to changing the game paradigm.

    DPS ships good, BUT enemies have the ability to debuff their DPS. Only a sci can clear the debuff, and the more they do it, the more points they get towards earning special sci rewards.

    Meanwhile, engineers keep the team alive, either tanking or healing. Change the mechanics so that Enineers CAN pull the threat from ships doing MUCH higher DPS than they are. As at the moment, they can't, the tac gets the aggro whether they want it or not. If engineer tanks can pull the damage, dps players can play glass cannons, dealing more dps offsetting the reduced DPS engineers and scis are able to do. Engineers receive points for their support activities towards unique engineer rewards just like the scis.

    Make the game fun for EVERYBODY, rather than spoiling the fun of 1 group to make another group happy.

    DPS dealers are your nukers, then you have your healers or tanks, and your crowd controllers/debuffers/ debuff strippers etc. Give non-dps builds and ships a reason for been.
  • grob44grob44 Member Posts: 60 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    DPS is not me but I know its a very important part of the game for some and a money maker for the game owner. I will most likely never catch up to the high dps players but its a goal I shoot for knowing that high dps is possible. Let them have their dps fun.
  • aelfwin1aelfwin1 Member Posts: 2,896 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    meimeitoo wrote: »

    It renders as good as every good Console useless overnight

    How would a 20-30K cap do that exactly ?
    I agree that their combined usefulness might be limited , but not as a single unit , and certainly not all of them .
    Besides, DPS isn't out of control at all: only for a handful of people..

    So that is why the PVP-ers are saying that DR killed PVP and that is why we got the brilliant HP "fix" to PVE with DR , right ?

    Weren't you one who said "finally someone who get's it !" ?
    Or did you ignore what that player said about the power gap & power creep and just used that as a shallow justification to get your shinies back ?
  • twofatnutstwofatnuts Member Posts: 53 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    This is not a problem of dps rather too many buffs stacking together when beam boats often comes with multi beta -50 all resistances and multi stacking fire at my mark -40 all res then enemy goes like -400 resistances from only tac slots what about sci and eng debufs?

    I dont know how much negative resistances increase damage but all damage bufs crit and crit sev + negative resistances can achive 100k dps on multi target so we saw in 102kdps movie.

    Solution? devs please bring back old "stronger buffs remain" to the game instead of stacking or even make them a private only debufs like resistance penetration/ignore avaible only for caster.

    Also we need nerf to weapon power drain in marion config it suposed to slighty reduce power drain not completly negate it also zero power drain on weapons are also a bad idea reduced cost sounds more real. Also borg set with proc drain reduction -500! O.o even for 2 seconds its way too op it should reduce power drain of fixed value like 1 energy "8 beams drain 8 less energy" or 0,5 "8 beams drain 4 less energy"...

    Right now Scim can give out 125 poer settings 250% damage multiply by omega 50% and tac fleet 40% and ambush from cloak with boffs for duration i forgot how much but this so stupid...

    Another thing are aoe buffs they should give bonus to dps but 100% to self and 50% to team like tactical fleet or jemhadar dred console.

    This is the simpliest way to reduce out of control dps in game without hurting newbies.

    Its sad when i see myself killing tac cube and other players get killed by borg sphere and to give me a challange devs only brings more hp to cube and sphere even more distancing new players from me so im starting to look for pro players when new players get less and less help from power creep players.
  • wrenfuwrenfu Member Posts: 119 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I've never been queued for an STF and thought "wow this person is doing way too much damage"

    People who can't do anything on the other hand..
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    aelfwin1 wrote: »
    In the end , I think that the cap should be x1.5 or x2 of the average DPS in game that is displayed by the majority of the playerbase as a whole.

    2x the average DPS displayed by the majority of the playerbase would not be enough to complete normal queues...
  • norobladnoroblad Member Posts: 2,624 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    absolutely against.

    - a hardcap is admitting a flawed game -- the players require developer's magic wand to face a challenge, rather than face tough mobs.

    - it discourages ppl from playing, hit the cap, cant do better, get bored. At least now we can tinker and eek out minor gains.

    - it discourages paying for the game. If I can hit hardcap in a mirror ship with blue gear, I won't buy that slick new t6 ship. Or whatever... I wont buy zen to to upgrade my t5 ship, I wont spend dil to upgrade from XIII gear, whatever.

    - it will increase the boredom factor. At least as it stands we can tinker on ships and see gains.

    - It opens a can o worms. why only cap damage? Once pandora's box is opened on a cap, why not cap hit points or power levels or .....

    I could probably list issues all day long but lets leave it at those.
  • darkdog13darkdog13 Member Posts: 209 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    2x the average DPS displayed by the majority of the playerbase would not be enough to complete normal queues...

    Sadly this is close to the truth.

    I have almost stopped pugging since DR but from my experience in the old elites 5k dps was about average which means at 2x you would have a hard time doing an advanced and elite would not work at all. The best i have seen in a pug advanced was 23k dps and the worst was just over 1k with most being around 4-7k dps.

    If they really want to make pve harder the ai need new abilites and more things like feedback pulse that discourge beam array faw spacebar smashing. Faw/csv should have a place instead of just being used because its more dps with no downside.
  • cbrjwrrcbrjwrr Member Posts: 2,782 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Nice! Well, not so much, I think the powercreep is ridiculous, but still, a Galaxy did that!

    Yep, RyanSTO (ezriryan on here) did it just a few days ago.

    Ok, there are maybe 5 players in total who could actually do it, but that is the fact - powercreep is so vast a Galaxy can now do 40k DPS.

    Yet the average player couldn't get 1/10th of that from a Galaxy Class.
  • blakes7tvseriesblakes7tvseries Member Posts: 704 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    How much DPS do we need 20K - 15k - 10k to have fun.

    I find a bit of a long fight challenging and rewarding.

    Where is the fun in point weapon, press fire, and watch explosion.

    Is this a game or is it how fast can you make something explode MMO.
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  • heckgoblinheckgoblin Member Posts: 685
    edited November 2014
    Against. Excellence should never be penalized.
    I AM WAR.
  • spencerb96spencerb96 Member Posts: 247 Media Corps
    edited November 2014
    Am very against this.

    Anything the Devs do to try and hurt DPSers is going to hurt everyone else much more.

    For example, lets look at the Pet nerf. Quite a few needed the DPS from their pets in order to do harder queues. When they get nerfed, those players are going to be hit hard. Now how hard are high DPS players going to be hit by that? On the current record DPS run, 107k, only 12k of his DPS was from his pets, and he didn't pop Fleet Support 3, which would have boosted him over 110k easily.

    D'Angelo said STO has ~100k Characters. If I go look at the DPS league table, I see that there are:

    ~1,250 Players parsed at >10k DPS
    Of those 1,250;
    • 624 are >20k DPS
    • 301 are >30k DPS
    • 112 are >40k DPS
    • 42 are >50k DPS
    • 17 are >60k DPS
    • 8 are >70k DPS
    • 5 are >80k DPS
    • 4 are >90k DPS
    • 2 are above 100k DPS

    Like any game, there are going to be very experienced players, and there are going to be players that have no clue what they're doing. If I go in as a new player, with very little play time, why would I want to get those that have put thousands of hours in to play at my level? Putting a cap on higher level players makes them want to not put any money in and possibly go look for another game.

    RyanSTO, the one that did 101k DPS in his Scimitar, also did >40k DPS using a Fleet T5-U Exploration Cruiser Retrofit. Powercreep is nice and all, but it is all useless unless you know what you are doing.
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  • zero2362zero2362 Member Posts: 436 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    AGAINST Im having a hard enough time putting out enough DPS as is against current mobs
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  • stoutesstoutes Member Posts: 4,219 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I'm against a hard cap on the top.

    Why? A possible cap prevents people to rise above the average. Some people like to wallow in averageness, but others want to know and go beyond the "safe borders".
    maxvitor wrote: »
    Nerf is OP, plz nerf
    That's quite the paradox, how could you nerf nerf when the nerf is nerfed. But how would the nerf be nerfed when the nerf is nerfed? This allows the nerf not to be nerfed since the nerf is nerfed? But if the nerf isn't nerfed, it could still nerf nerfs. But as soon as the nerf is nerfed, the nerf power is lost. So paradoxally it the nerf nerf lost its nerf, while it's still nerfed, which cannot be because the nerf was unable to nerf.

    I call it, the Stoutes paradox.
  • aelfwin1aelfwin1 Member Posts: 2,896 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    wrenfu wrote: »
    I've never been queued for an STF and thought "wow this person is doing way too much damage"

    Well , let's see ... , my fastest pre-DR experience was with a DPS crew in CSE that blew away the right corner (4 probes and a cube) in less time that it took me to blow up 4 of the BOP's (you know ... center and left) .
    All in all ... I'd say it took them about ... 15-25 seconds .

    You're welcome to not think that that is ridiculous .
    I will disagree . :)
    Moreover I'll say that I did not have fun playing with those guys , as the battle ended before it began .
    2x the average DPS displayed by the majority of the playerbase would not be enough to complete normal queues...

    Aaaand your suggestion to bring some balance / equal footing to the game would be ?


    ... you know besides offering cookie cuter builds ...
  • pewpewphazorspewpewphazors Member Posts: 90 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    From another thread:
    You need 4 people in the 50k DPS range and a 5th who's a pure debuffer or tank to finish this.

    So there are not many options here.
  • lowy1lowy1 Member Posts: 964 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Against. You can't limit what makes this game go. And no NERFING of the Scimatar and I don't even own one.

    What they need to do is first balance out weapon mods (critD, critH, Acc and DMG) and then implement diminishing returns on those mods.

    Next expand Space Traits amongst factions and then prevent or limit stacking.
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  • wrenfuwrenfu Member Posts: 119 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    aelfwin1 wrote: »
    Well , let's see ... , my fastest pre-DR experience was with a DPS crew in CSE that blew away the right corner (4 probes and a cube) in less time that it took me to blow up 4 of the BOP's (you know ... center and left) .
    All in all ... I'd say it took them about ... 20-30 seconds .

    You're welcome to not think that that is ridiculous .
    I will disagree . :)



    Aaaand your suggestion to bring some balance / equal footing to the game would be ?


    ... you know besides offering cookie cuter builds ...

    And now advanced and elite queues are dead which is 100x more ridiculous. A cap on DPS wouldn't change this at all. The enemies need retuning, not the players (who will always mostly be brainless mouth breathers)

    You're welcome to disagree though :)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • azntrigboiazntrigboi Member Posts: 139 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I think if you're going to introduce some sort of "cap", it should not be a hard cap. That doesn't provide meaningful choices to the player. It diminishes them. Now, what a lot of MMO's do(including Neverwinter, their other game) is to introduce soft caps or "diminishing returns" caps on things like critical hit chance. Something like that I think is more appropriate.
  • cbrjwrrcbrjwrr Member Posts: 2,782 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    - What is the average players' DPS? Is the average player a 2k DPS "person"?!?
    ?

    About 1/3rd of players do 2k DPS. The next third takes us up to 7-8k DPS.

    Basically, if you plotted players (X) vs DPS (Y), you have a relatively straight line up to about 5k, a bulge between 5-9k, and the tiny bit on the end being one massive spike.
  • fenr00kfenr00k Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I would sincerely hope that the devs learned from the queue changes not to listen to the small number of players crying for "more challenge" when they saw the queues empty out...

    No, the majority DON'T want DPS nerfs, more challenge etc, they want to play a fun game, not a job of work. The majority spoke when they changed the queues, and if Cryptic nerf DPS will speak again, not on these forums, but in the game where it actually matters.

    Stop thinking that the problem is with power creep dps, and realise that it's with underpowered engineers and scis. DPS is good when those who don't want to DPS also feel useful. Teams want high dps players, as well as healers, buffers, crowd controllers etc. The focus on dps is because we don't have this in STO, we just have DPS. All anybody cares about is the DPS people are dealing. Those who have it are happy, those who don't are jealous and cry for nerfs.

    The simple truth is, those who are monsters in Scimitars are a small minority. Most players flying them AREN'T doing 100k plus. Nerfing wont hurt the high DPSers, it'll hurt the just about doing enough DPSers, and the not doing nearly enough DPSers far more.
  • orondisorondis Member Posts: 1,447 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Even a 20k cap on DPS would still have players doing 4x that of the majority.

    The majority of players in this game do something like 3-5k. Then there are people in the 10-30k band and people in the 40k+ band, with even 100k being reached.

    Basically the majority are doing 5% of the DPS that we know is possible.

    The problem between this huge DPS variation has already been solved. There are normal, advanced and elite queues... problem is the people who only do 3-5k really want the advanced queues to be normal difficulty. Yes yes, they used to be able to do pre-DR elite... So could a non-hardcore group(people who aren't members of DPS channels) of players in quickly setup T3 ships. That's not elite, that's not even advanced. That's easy difficulty.

    It's not like a good portion of 10k+ are doing anything extraordinarily special, it's just the 3-5k builds tend to be horrendously bad. Mixed weapon types, useless and/or redundant boff powers(3 of the same skill), weapon setups that are trying to stay canon, no shield heals, no tactical team, no tac consoles. Even when they do get into combat, you hardly see a single boff power being used.

    Which is fine, that's what the normal queues were for.
    Previously Alendiak
    Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
    Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    lowy1 wrote: »
    Against. You can't limit what makes this game go.

    ^^ That sums it up nicely.

    With a hard cap, I no longer have any incentive to get better gear (= BUY gear/upgrades), or better myself as a pilot.

    Besides, the whole fun of the game is the synergy of your Consoles, skills, etc.

    Also, to you, Cryptic, and let me make this abundantly clear, you had me spend inordinate amounts of cash for all your sick upgrades, just so as to get me back on the wagon again. If you do a 180 now again, I'll leave 'fore you can say "Please, don't leave!" Fool me once, and all that.
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  • genesisdvsngenesisdvsn Member Posts: 43 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Nah you dont need a cap, like a previous poster said, "You need people to feel useful in what there doing"

    WoW style stf's would be better, rather than it all coming down to dps.

    WoW style i mean like raids, stf's should be more like them, ie: Dps have a job, tanks take the agrro and sci's heal, rather than it just coming down to a timed dps race.

    But you also need the AI's to have, well "I", atm they just have "A" with a TRIBBLE load of hit points.
    Official Joining Date Feb 2010.
  • aelfwin1aelfwin1 Member Posts: 2,896 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    wrenfu wrote: »
    And now advanced and elite queues are dead which is 100x more ridiculous. A cap on DPS wouldn't change this at all. The enemies need retuning, not the players

    Obviously the enemies need retuning as well ... -- but my point was that you CAN'T tune an enemy to be player friendly when one player does 5K , the other 12K the other 10K and yet another 30K or more .

    Some sort of balance , some sort of cohesiveness needs to exist .

    lowy1 wrote: »
    Against. You can't limit what makes this game go. And no NERFING of the Scimatar and I don't even own one.

    A cap would avoid the need to nerf the Scimi , or any other power in the game .
    It would put a line in the sand ("this far and no further") and have more then one ship reach that line (with a skilled pilot & good gear) .

    ... and I did suggest to raise the cap every year or so to "make the game go" as you put it . But that would be make the game go under controlled circumstances .... where the enemies would also then be controlled to match & challenge , not be a trololol or zzzzzzzzz.... fest
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