Okay, so after taking a look the space section of the chart, this is what it's going to cost me if I want to upgrade just a selection of items on my build for my engineer:
Total to upgrade to Mark XIV just for these: 204,250 dilithium or around 1104 zen. This is about as much as I have saved up to this point combined with all of my characters. Are you seriously saying that you're fine spending this much just to upgrade?
you forgot to mention EC cost of upgrading stuff too
Quick update note:
* In an upcoming patch (not sure when exactly it will hit), the time required for gear to finish its upgrade process should go down significantly. The cost to skip this timer will also go down significantly.
* We are continuing to add upgrade functionality. You should see upgrade functionality for more items in the next big update, including the Bajoran phaser pistol and rifle, the black version of the type 2 Federation phaser pistol, the CRM-200 cryonic cannon, and the synchronic proton distortion rifle. Keep an eye on the patch notes!
Please tell me that Legacy items will be upgradeable too. That's MY buy in....
The harm to players is that the current system exists, IMO, to foster a crafting economy which encourages player interaction, and allows virtually everyone to participate if they so choose. Your changes would eliminate most of those incentives, which I think is a bad thing. Moreover, I think your argument misses the fact that the player is not the only stakeholder in this discussion - PWE and Cryptic need to make money to pay for the investment they sank into this expansion, as well as finance the next round of game improvements. Saying "what's the harm to the player" misses that. Right now, like I said before, objectively the price of the upgrades is very reasonable compared to the current prices for Mk XII rep/fleet gear, and I think reducing those prices quickly becomes unreasonable when you think about it from the company's perspective. You can't compare the prices to "free" and say they are too much - it's much more reasonable to ask "what would I reasonably expect to pay for a brand new piece of Mk XIV gear if I was buying it in one go?", and compare the costs to that.
Circumstantially, the price of mk XIV items are currently unavailable. So you cannot factor that in. Cryptic/PWE making money is an inevitable thing. They will make money regardless. It's when they decide to pump out "content" or systems that retroactively "encourage" that, that I feel it's excessive. I completely understand that they want to keep this game F2P but it was their decision to make it F2P to begin with. Also, let us not forget the Delta Operations Pack in addition to existing C-store items is enough for them to make more than ends meat. I would quote stock figures but I feel that would be going off topic by a far margin. If you want to encourage player interaction, make things more cooperative based. I rather play with other players than grind/work with them.
Okay, so after taking a look the space section of the chart, this is what it's going to cost me if I want to upgrade just a selection of items on my build for my engineer:
Total to upgrade to Mark XIV just for these: 204,250 dilithium or around 1104 zen. This is about as much as I have saved up to this point combined with all of my characters. Are you seriously saying that you're fine spending this much just to upgrade?
Yes, I'm saying that's a totally reasonable cost to upgrade, because the only other option that would make any sense, both from the perspective of making Cryptic money, and from the perspective of making Mk XIV feel valuable, would be to force people to buy entirely new Mk XIV gear from scratch, at a much higher cost.
The creation of a continuous dilithium sink encourages the purchase and selling of zen for Dil which will reduce the current price of Zen on the market. I'm sure they factored that in after seeing what happens when a new SB Teir opens up.
All in all, not a bad move when you think about it from the point of view of keeping things F2P
Though the upgrade wait times are a bit excessive. Other side of that it encourages more alts, which encourages more Dil to be farmed naturally.
Im not going to make more characters to grind/farm. I'm going to make another character to get another in-game POV and have fun.
Yes, I'm saying that's a totally reasonable cost to upgrade, because the only other option that would make any sense, both from the perspective of making Cryptic money, and from the perspective of making Mk XIV feel valuable, would be to force people to buy entirely new Mk XIV gear from scratch, at a much higher cost.
I'd expect brand new mk XIV URs to cost that much. Not an upgrade.
you forgot to mention EC cost of upgrading stuff too
I don't factor in EC cost. It's easy for me to make EC in the game. It's harder to get dilithium if you're not buying zen with money and converting it to to dilithium. Note that I don't use real money at all. I actually cannot spend money on this game at all.
Yes, I'm saying that's a totally reasonable cost to upgrade, because the only other option that would make any sense, both from the perspective of making Cryptic money, and from the perspective of making Mk XIV feel valuable, would be to force people to buy entirely new Mk XIV gear from scratch, at a much higher cost.
upgrading everything I have will cost as much as I paid out in dilithium to get the Mark XII items in the first place, if not more. As I just stated above, I have no other means of acquiring dilithium besides grinding out for it daily and refining it.
Circumstantially, the price of mk XIV items are currently unavailable. So you cannot factor that in. Cryptic/PWE making money is an inevitable thing. They will make money regardless. It's when they decide to pump out "content" or systems that retroactively "encourage" that, that I feel it's excessive. I completely understand that they want to keep this game F2P but it was their decision to make it F2P to begin with. Also, let us not forget the Delta Operations Pack in addition to existing C-store items is enough for them to make more than ends meat. I would quote stock figures but I feel that would be gong off topic by a far margin. If you want to encourage player interaction, make things more cooperative based. I rather play with other players than grind/work with them.
First, I'm extrapolating Mk XIV prices from the current Mk XII pricing, which seems a more reasonable basis for comparing costs than basically starting from the premise that they should be free. All you have to do is ask yourself what you would expect to pay for a Mk XIV item. I assert that you would expect to pay more than what a Mk XII item currently costs, correct? In fact, I think you probably would expect to pay more than what a Mk XII item PLUS the upgrade to Mk XIV currently costs. I certainly would. Thus, the current system is a savings relative to that system. I also think that it represents essentially the ONLY other reasonable expectation players could have. The level cap is going up. Either you are going to upgrade your current gear, or buy entirely new gear. Neither option is (or can be) free, but certainly one is cheaper than the other.
Second, I submit that you probably aren't right about PWE/Cryptic making money no matter what. I agree that they will have income regardless of whether or not they give Delta Rising away entirely for free, but I don't think they will make a profit, at all. Here's a thought experiment - how much do you think it cost for Cryptic to make Delta Rising? How much do you think they would have had to charge for the expansion if it were a paid expansion? $20? $30? That's probably about what they are targeting getting out of people over the next few months in unique "Delta Rising" costs. Already the "outrageous" example in this thread was a cost of like $11 dollars. Even adding either a Tier 6 ship or a Tier 5u upgrade, the total buy in for the expansion doesn't seem unreasonable, compared to what they would have had to charge as a paid expansion, especially since, again, as the current system is designed, you can pay that cost in small increments over time, rather than all at once. If you want to say that the current system punishes players with alts, that's fair, as far as it goes, but that's a larger issue with F2P systems in general, I think (and the current system is still far better for players with alts than making them buy new gear from scratch would have been).
Finally, I think that the current system is already highly cooperative - I've already started arranging kit trades within my fleet between people who have different crafting schools leveled to 15, and I'm planning on being available to make superior kits for anyone in the fleet who provides me with the materials, AND I'm planning on working with people to run repeatable content (like we do already anyway) with an eye towards getting more of the crafting materials needed. To me, there is a lot in the current system that really encourages me to meaningfully cooperate with other players.
I'd expect brand new mk XIV URs to cost that much. Not an upgrade.
I'm curious why you feel that there is an important functional distinction between the two ideas?
To me, if I have Mk XII gear, and I want Mk XIV gear, I have to buy the Mk XIV gear. There are two ways I could do that - buy Mk XIV gear directly, which would logically cost me all of what I've already paid for my Mk XII gear, plus more, or I could upgrade, and just pay the difference.
I'm curious why you feel that there is an important functional distinction between the two ideas?
To me, if I have Mk XII gear, and I want Mk XIV gear, I have to buy the Mk XIV gear. There are two ways I could do that - buy Mk XIV gear directly, which would logically cost me all of what I've already paid for my Mk XII gear, plus more, or I could upgrade, and just pay the difference.
Why cant we have the option to do both?
What sucks is that we are being FORCED to use this uber expensive upgrade system to get mk xiv gear.
First, I'm extrapolating Mk XIV prices from the current Mk XII pricing, which seems a more reasonable basis for comparing costs than basically starting from the premise that they should be free. All you have to do is ask yourself what you would expect to pay for a Mk XIV item. I assert that you would expect to pay more than what a Mk XII item currently costs, correct? In fact, I think you probably would expect to pay more than what a Mk XII item PLUS the upgrade to Mk XIV currently costs. I certainly would. Thus, the current system is a savings relative to that system. I also think that it represents essentially the ONLY other reasonable expectation players could have. The level cap is going up. Either you are going to upgrade your current gear, or buy entirely new gear. Neither option is (or can be) free, but certainly one is cheaper than the other.
Second, I submit that you probably aren't right about PWE/Cryptic making money no matter what. I agree that they will have income regardless of whether or not they give Delta Rising away entirely for free, but I don't think they will make a profit, at all. Here's a thought experiment - how much do you think it cost for Cryptic to make Delta Rising? How much do you think they would have had to charge for the expansion if it were a paid expansion? $20? $30? That's probably about what they are targeting getting out of people over the next few months in unique "Delta Rising" costs. Already the "outrageous" example in this thread was a cost of like $11 dollars. Even adding either a Tier 6 ship or a Tier 5u upgrade, the total buy in for the expansion doesn't seem unreasonable, compared to what they would have had to charge as a paid expansion, especially since, again, as the current system is designed, you can pay that cost in small increments over time, rather than all at once. If you want to say that the current system punishes players with alts, that's fair, as far as it goes, but that's a larger issue with F2P systems in general, I think (and the current system is still far better for players with alts than making them buy new gear from scratch would have been).
Finally, I think that the current system is already highly cooperative - I've already started arranging kit trades within my fleet between people who have different crafting schools leveled to 15, and I'm planning on being available to make superior kits for anyone in the fleet who provides me with the materials, AND I'm planning on working with people to run repeatable content (like we do already anyway) with an eye towards getting more of the crafting materials needed. To me, there is a lot in the current system that really encourages me to meaningfully cooperate with other players.
When did I say I wanted it to be free? You make a good point about what to expect in terms of price but since there is no major source of dilithium you can grind for a decrease in price is understandable. If they always had an event running like Crystalline then I would be fine with it. But that is not the case. My fleet has left the game because of this. And they were all Lifetime Subscribers. So I don't have the luxury of making arrangements with my fleet. I'm still on contact with them, just not in-game. And like vegeta, I can't really afford to spend money on this game. I'm currently going to school for game design and don't have the money to make things easy or quick. Like my signature says, I don't mind grinding. I would just like for the grind to be more fun is all.
I'm curious why you feel that there is an important functional distinction between the two ideas?
To me, if I have Mk XII gear, and I want Mk XIV gear, I have to buy the Mk XIV gear. There are two ways I could do that - buy Mk XIV gear directly, which would logically cost me all of what I've already paid for my Mk XII gear, plus more, or I could upgrade, and just pay the difference.
So you mean to tell me the difference is over 200k in pink rock? When it only cost me 150k to get brand new mk XII URs. True, its not mk XIV, but since we don't know if we can even buy mk XIVs, we cant really incorporate that now can we?
upgrading everything I have will cost as much as I paid out in dilithium to get the Mark XII items in the first place, if not more. As I just stated above, I have no other means of acquiring dilithium besides grinding out for it daily and refining it.
No, it really won't. In your list, the deflector, shields, and engines cost less to upgrade than you originally paid for them. The weapons cost more (but in several cases only slightly), but if you upgraded consoles, you would find they also cost less. Overall, it looks to cost about 300k Dilithium to upgrade a whole ship.
Also, you are talking about less than a month's worth of dilithium for a single character - what do you feel is a "fair" timeline for a character to get to the new standard? I submit that a month really isn't too bad.
What bothers me the most with just upgrading is the lack of control over the modifiers you get added. I would honestly rather pay for a new weapon to get the modifiers I want instead of the random upgrade process ruining weapons with useless things like [DMG] when I want [CrtH].
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Looking for a new fleet? Drop by the in-game chat channel, "tenforwardforum", and say hi to the members of A Fleet Called Ten Forward (Fed) and The Orion Pirates (KDF). If you already have a fleet you are happy with, please feel free to drop by our chat channel if you are looking for a friendly bunch of helpful people to socialize with.
No, it really won't. In your list, the deflector, shields, and engines cost less to upgrade than you originally paid for them. The weapons cost more (but in several cases only slightly), but if you upgraded consoles, you would find they also cost less. Overall, it looks to cost about 300k Dilithium to upgrade a whole ship.
Also, you are talking about less than a month's worth of dilithium for a single character - what do you feel is a "fair" timeline for a character to get to the new standard? I submit that a month really isn't too bad.
If we had crystalline entity running or the mirror event always running we could get 300k in like 2 weeks. Now that is reasonable.
What bothers me the most with just upgrading is the lack of control over the modifiers you get added. I would honestly rather pay for a new weapon to get the modifiers I want instead of the random upgrade process ruining weapons with useless things like [DMG] when I want [CrtH].
I'm wondering that as well. Will Mk XIV gear be purchasable? If so, where? Fleet? Rep?
So you mean to tell me the difference is over 200k in pink rock? When it only cost me 150k to get brand new mk XII URs. True, its not mk XIV, but since we don't know if we can even buy mk XIVs, we cant really incorporate that now can we?
We in fact do know that we can't buy Mk XIV gear. We also, I believe, can reasonably conclude that if we could buy such gear, it would be more expensive than the current Mk XII gear is. In fact, it would be MUCH more expensive, right? Thus, the upgrade system gets us the same Mk XIV gear for LESS than what we should have expected to pay for it if we were buying entirely new gear(as long as you use superior kits, and are willing to wait for upgrades to run instead of rushing them), and in fact gets us Mk XIV gear in many cases for less than what we originally paid for our Mk XII gear, thus preserving the value of the dilithium we've already invested.
In short, yes, I think it's reasonable dilithium costs if you consider what the cost trends for items actually are in the game now, and extrapolate those out, and I think it translates to a reasonable "real money" cost as well, if you compare it to the price you would have expected to pay for a paid expansion.
To your point in your other post about wanting the grinding to be more fun, I think that's just again an area where we have different perceptions. To me, the current system looks like fun, because it provides incentives for things I enjoy. That's always going to be a matter of opinion, I know, but I will say that if you feel like you don't have people you play with now who can help you with kits and the like, maybe this is a good reason to try branching out? To me, the upgrade system is something that is best done in a group, much like building a star base, etc., so I'm excited for the possibilities.
We in fact do know that we can't buy Mk XIV gear. We also, I believe, can reasonably conclude that if we could buy such gear, it would be more expensive than the current Mk XII gear is. In fact, it would be MUCH more expensive, right? Thus, the upgrade system gets us the same Mk XIV gear for LESS than what we should have expected to pay for it if we were buying entirely new gear(as long as you use superior kits, and are willing to wait for upgrades to run instead of rushing them), and in fact gets us Mk XIV gear in many cases for less than what we originally paid for our Mk XII gear, thus preserving the value of the dilithium we've already invested.
In short, yes, I think it's reasonable dilithium costs if you consider what the cost trends for items actually are in the game now, and extrapolate those out, and I think it translates to a reasonable "real money" cost as well, if you compare it to the price you would have expected to pay for a paid expansion.
To your point in your other post about wanting the grinding to be more fun, I think that's just again an area where we have different perceptions. To me, the current system looks like fun, because it provides incentives for things I enjoy. That's always going to be a matter of opinion, I know, but I will say that if you feel like you don't have people you play with now who can help you with kits and the like, maybe this is a good reason to try branching out? To me, the upgrade system is something that is best done in a group, much like building a star base, etc., so I'm excited for the possibilities.
I agree we have a difference of opinion. But from your POV, I have yet to hear anything solid. You are comparing what does exist to what does not. i.e purchasing mk XII to purchasing mk XIV. Whereas on my end, I've provided access to an informative spreadsheet and have suggested a reasonable alternative that might be in everyone's interest. Your point has yet to prove to me how that is a bad thing aside from Cryptic/PWE needing to make money. A point vaguely relevant to the topic at hand. I've even tried compromising with you by saying that I would like the grind to be more fun. I honestly believe the grinding should just stop. But I know that won't happen, and part of me knows that grinding gives me something to do.
I'm in the here and now. Providing info about what really is happening and what it entails in the long run. Your point is just dark matter to me and needs serious clarification. I think the reason why you are confident with this is because you got friends to help you out. What about the lone rangers out there(like me)? If I "branch out" it would be to my own benefit which is wrong IMO. I don't believe in free rides. But I dont believe in thousand dollar hikes either.
I'm in the Middle Class of the STO Economy. I'm a Lifer, been here since season 1.1, and have 8 characters. 2 Active, 1 Semi-active, and 5 Retired. (All Caitian/Ferasan plus a Romulan, if you must know) On average I refine about 16,000 Dilithium a day and have at least 5 Million EC to play around with at all times. These are my complaints:
First off is the integration of the crafting system. Before you say you don't need it to upgrade weapons... You are both wrong and right. While you can easily obtain the common quality tech upgrades from your friendly neighborhood vendor, the cost in Dilithium to use them is horrendous. This, when given the fact that there exists better quality upgrades that cost less Dilithium to use forces people to look into using them instead. Here inlays the problem. They must either boost their crafting by grinding that system in order to craft their own upgrade items which is fine for levels 0-10 or pay someone to do it for them. The Very Rare and Ultra Rare upgrades are another story because of one fatal flaw...
These items require either party to grinding various STFs for Cryptic's NEW lottery tickets: Crafting item boxes. I have done the 3 main Borg ground STFs once a day on all 3 of my active characters and in the past week I have received a total of 5 [Plekton]! They did this once before with the "Chance to Drop" items in STFs! Remember how hard it was grinding for a chance to get the parts needed for M.A.C.O., OMEGA Force, and Honor Guard Mk XII items? People HATED it so they removed that system and put it in the Reputation system. Now the "Chance to Drop" items are back and Cryptic will either have to come up with a better way to get them, (Even if it's 3 per day per character! It's not that unreasonable!) or face the issues of WoW. Not to mention the introduction of Ultra Rare and possible EPIC R&D materials! With those I suppose I will only get 1 per month! This has got to stop!
The other thing is the Grinding. This has gone WAY too far! If you want to make new content, MAKE NEW CONTENT! Don't bludgeon us to death with constant grinding, make more story stuff! What happened to the Weekly series? When it first came out I was absolutely amazed! It made me so inspired, I went out and got a Lifetime Membership! Do more of that! If you continue the "Grindfest" you will cause the downfall and eventual destruction of one of the worlds #1 MMOs. You earned that title because of your amazing story, your (at the time) excellent F2P model, and your ultra dedicated fan base!
Oh and one thing I would like to see as a true challenge, bring back the OLD STFs. The ones that took 3-4 hours and forced people to work as a team or fail miserably. There are far too many "Lone Wolves" out there who love messing up things. Teach them a lesson in humility by granting an EPIC reward for completing the missions like [Reward Pack: 5,000 Choice Marks] that you use to get ALL the types of marks with! They were some of the most fun and challenging missions ever! Was it long? Yes. Was it hard? CATAR, YES! But the reward for completion was worth it, when it was the only way to get the full set of Borg tech. One of the VERY rare times I felt proud to have because of the skills I mastered.
This is my favorite game of all time. In the past it brought me great joy. Nowadays it brings me constant stress and I find I play it less and less. Yet will I ever stop playing? No. Why? Only because I am addicted to the game. These are my complaints.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to relieve some stress by trimming my fingernails with a belt-sander.
I actually came to a realization while talking with a friend over the costs. Even though we have the total costs to go from XII to XIV, you have to remember that we won't be able to upgrade all the way right away. It was mentioned that we cannot upgrade past the level we are currently at. So we have the time while leveling to save up for the upcoming upgrade projects. it's not pay2win if we don't have to pay.
I'm in the Middle Class of the STO Economy. I'm a Lifer, been here since season 1.1, and have 8 characters. 2 Active, 1 Semi-active, and 5 Retired. (All Caitian/Ferasan plus a Romulan, if you must know) On average I refine about 16,000 Dilithium a day and have at least 5 Million EC to play around with at all times. These are my complaints:
First off is the integration of the crafting system. Before you say you don't need it to upgrade weapons... You are both wrong and right. While you can easily obtain the common quality tech upgrades from your friendly neighborhood vendor, the cost in Dilithium to use them is horrendous. This, when given the fact that there exists better quality upgrades that cost less Dilithium to use forces people to look into using them instead. Here inlays the problem. They must either boost their crafting by grinding that system in order to craft their own upgrade items which is fine for levels 0-10 or pay someone to do it for them. The Very Rare and Ultra Rare upgrades are another story because of one fatal flaw...
These items require either party to grinding various STFs for Cryptic's NEW lottery tickets: Crafting item boxes. I have done the 3 main Borg ground STFs once a day on all 3 of my active characters and in the past week I have received a total of 5 [Plekton]! They did this once before with the "Chance to Drop" items in STFs! Remember how hard it was grinding for a chance to get the parts needed for M.A.C.O., OMEGA Force, and Honor Guard Mk XII items? People HATED it so they removed that system and put it in the Reputation system. Now the "Chance to Drop" items are back and Cryptic will either have to come up with a better way to get them, (Even if it's 3 per day per character! It's not that unreasonable!) or face the issues of WoW. Not to mention the introduction of Ultra Rare and possible EPIC R&D materials! With those I suppose I will only get 1 per month! This has got to stop!
The other thing is the Grinding. This has gone WAY too far! If you want to make new content, MAKE NEW CONTENT! Don't bludgeon us to death with constant grinding, make more story stuff! What happened to the Weekly series? When it first came out I was absolutely amazed! It made me so inspired, I went out and got a Lifetime Membership! Do more of that! If you continue the "Grindfest" you will cause the downfall and eventual destruction of one of the worlds #1 MMOs. You earned that title because of your amazing story, your (at the time) excellent F2P model, and your ultra dedicated fan base!
Oh and one thing I would like to see as a true challenge, bring back the OLD STFs. The ones that took 3-4 hours and forced people to work as a team or fail miserably. There are far too many "Lone Wolves" out there who love messing up things. Teach them a lesson in humility by granting an EPIC reward for completing the missions like [Reward Pack: 5,000 Choice Marks] that you use to get ALL the types of marks with! They were some of the most fun and challenging missions ever! Was it long? Yes. Was it hard? CATAR, YES! But the reward for completion was worth it, when it was the only way to get the full set of Borg tech. One of the VERY rare times I felt proud to have because of the skills I mastered.
This is my favorite game of all time. In the past it brought me great joy. Nowadays it brings me constant stress and I find I play it less and less. Yet will I ever stop playing? No. Why? Only because I am addicted to the game. These are my complaints.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to relieve some stress by trimming my fingernails with a belt-sander.
=/\=Admiral Ghost
Man! You took me to church with that! Wow! I'm only a lone ranger now because the constant grinding has drove my lifetime sub fleet mates away. I'm with you 100%.
I actually came to a realization while talking with a friend over the costs. Even though we have the total costs to go from XII to XIV, you have to remember that we won't be able to upgrade all the way right away. It was mentioned that we cannot upgrade past the level we are currently at. So we have the time while leveling to save up for the upcoming upgrade projects. it's not pay2win if we don't have to pay.
I agree we have a difference of opinion. But from your POV, I have yet to hear anything solid. You are comparing what does exist to what does not. i.e purchasing mk XII to purchasing mk XIV. Whereas on my end, I've provided access to an informative spreadsheet and have suggested a reasonable alternative that might be in everyone's interest. Your point has yet to prove to me how that is a bad thing aside from Cryptic/PWE needing to make money. A point vaguely relevant to the topic at hand. I've even tried compromising with you by saying that I would like the grind to be more fun. I honestly believe the grinding should just stop. But I know that won't happen, and part of me knows that grinding gives me something to do.
I'm in the here and now. Providing info about what really is happening and what it entails in the long run. Your point is just dark matter to me and needs serious clarification. I think the reason why you are confident with this is because you got friends to help you out. What about the lone rangers out there(like me)? If I "branch out" it would be to my own benefit which is wrong IMO. I don't believe in free rides. But I dont believe in thousand dollar hikes either.
The spreadsheet isn't the issue - I'm not saying the numbers on the spreadsheet aren't real, I'm saying those numbers aren't, to me, unreasonable. The reason I perceive them that way is I compare those numbers to what I would have expected to pay for brand new Mk XIV gear - I feel like I can reasonably ballpark where that cost would be, based on pricing trends, and I find the upgrade cost to be favorable. Insofar as you think I'm comparing the prices to something imaginary, my contention is that YOU are essentially comparing the prices as they are to what you WANT them to be (essentially "free"), which seems to be an equally "unreal" comparison (since we know the upgrades aren't going to be free), and is much less reasonable (since it doesn't, to me, represent a realistic possible option from Cryptic's perspective). I also think saying that the need for the company to make money is only tangentially relevant is, again, an example of what I was saying about how you are focusing on only the player, as if the company wasn't a stakeholder in this discussion. Simply put, it makes no sense to me to start from any premise that doesn't include "Cryptic spent a lot of money on DR, and needs to recoup those costs from players". So, yeah, as far as solid reasoning goes, I'm very sure I'm doing it right.
I'm not sure why you consider branching out and working with other people for mutual benefit to be a "free ride", but you are certainly correct that the explicit reason why I feel confident is that I know I can work with people in my fleet to help get all of us upgraded gear. I think that is a good thing. To your question of "what about the lone wolves", well, being a lone wolf is hard sometimes. I understand that people don't want to be "told how to play", or whatever, but I think that a system that encourages more player interaction is on balance probably better for the game, so throwing it out to suit solo players seems to me to be a net loss, even if the loan wolves don't see it that way.
Man! You took me to church with that! Wow! I'm only a lone ranger now because the constant grinding has drove my lifetime sub fleet mates away. I'm with you 100%.
Comments
you forgot to mention EC cost of upgrading stuff too
Please tell me that Legacy items will be upgradeable too. That's MY buy in....
Circumstantially, the price of mk XIV items are currently unavailable. So you cannot factor that in. Cryptic/PWE making money is an inevitable thing. They will make money regardless. It's when they decide to pump out "content" or systems that retroactively "encourage" that, that I feel it's excessive. I completely understand that they want to keep this game F2P but it was their decision to make it F2P to begin with. Also, let us not forget the Delta Operations Pack in addition to existing C-store items is enough for them to make more than ends meat. I would quote stock figures but I feel that would be going off topic by a far margin. If you want to encourage player interaction, make things more cooperative based. I rather play with other players than grind/work with them.
A good portion of them are not from what I read.
Yes, I'm saying that's a totally reasonable cost to upgrade, because the only other option that would make any sense, both from the perspective of making Cryptic money, and from the perspective of making Mk XIV feel valuable, would be to force people to buy entirely new Mk XIV gear from scratch, at a much higher cost.
Im not going to make more characters to grind/farm. I'm going to make another character to get another in-game POV and have fun.
I'd expect brand new mk XIV URs to cost that much. Not an upgrade.
I said a selection. I didn't want to list everything.
I don't factor in EC cost. It's easy for me to make EC in the game. It's harder to get dilithium if you're not buying zen with money and converting it to to dilithium. Note that I don't use real money at all. I actually cannot spend money on this game at all.
upgrading everything I have will cost as much as I paid out in dilithium to get the Mark XII items in the first place, if not more. As I just stated above, I have no other means of acquiring dilithium besides grinding out for it daily and refining it.
K, he said loot drops, so that threw me off.
That just means all I gotta worry about is upgrade costs.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JU8ciOpp5kbplvwFanr7ast9THnAwC3LywmYHZREMx0/edit#gid=0
There's your costs
THey havent been in testing...and only one has been singled out so far for an intentional NOT upgradeable. But what is the OFFICIAL word?
First, I'm extrapolating Mk XIV prices from the current Mk XII pricing, which seems a more reasonable basis for comparing costs than basically starting from the premise that they should be free. All you have to do is ask yourself what you would expect to pay for a Mk XIV item. I assert that you would expect to pay more than what a Mk XII item currently costs, correct? In fact, I think you probably would expect to pay more than what a Mk XII item PLUS the upgrade to Mk XIV currently costs. I certainly would. Thus, the current system is a savings relative to that system. I also think that it represents essentially the ONLY other reasonable expectation players could have. The level cap is going up. Either you are going to upgrade your current gear, or buy entirely new gear. Neither option is (or can be) free, but certainly one is cheaper than the other.
Second, I submit that you probably aren't right about PWE/Cryptic making money no matter what. I agree that they will have income regardless of whether or not they give Delta Rising away entirely for free, but I don't think they will make a profit, at all. Here's a thought experiment - how much do you think it cost for Cryptic to make Delta Rising? How much do you think they would have had to charge for the expansion if it were a paid expansion? $20? $30? That's probably about what they are targeting getting out of people over the next few months in unique "Delta Rising" costs. Already the "outrageous" example in this thread was a cost of like $11 dollars. Even adding either a Tier 6 ship or a Tier 5u upgrade, the total buy in for the expansion doesn't seem unreasonable, compared to what they would have had to charge as a paid expansion, especially since, again, as the current system is designed, you can pay that cost in small increments over time, rather than all at once. If you want to say that the current system punishes players with alts, that's fair, as far as it goes, but that's a larger issue with F2P systems in general, I think (and the current system is still far better for players with alts than making them buy new gear from scratch would have been).
Finally, I think that the current system is already highly cooperative - I've already started arranging kit trades within my fleet between people who have different crafting schools leveled to 15, and I'm planning on being available to make superior kits for anyone in the fleet who provides me with the materials, AND I'm planning on working with people to run repeatable content (like we do already anyway) with an eye towards getting more of the crafting materials needed. To me, there is a lot in the current system that really encourages me to meaningfully cooperate with other players.
I'm curious why you feel that there is an important functional distinction between the two ideas?
To me, if I have Mk XII gear, and I want Mk XIV gear, I have to buy the Mk XIV gear. There are two ways I could do that - buy Mk XIV gear directly, which would logically cost me all of what I've already paid for my Mk XII gear, plus more, or I could upgrade, and just pay the difference.
Why cant we have the option to do both?
What sucks is that we are being FORCED to use this uber expensive upgrade system to get mk xiv gear.
So you mean to tell me the difference is over 200k in pink rock? When it only cost me 150k to get brand new mk XII URs. True, its not mk XIV, but since we don't know if we can even buy mk XIVs, we cant really incorporate that now can we?
No, it really won't. In your list, the deflector, shields, and engines cost less to upgrade than you originally paid for them. The weapons cost more (but in several cases only slightly), but if you upgraded consoles, you would find they also cost less. Overall, it looks to cost about 300k Dilithium to upgrade a whole ship.
Also, you are talking about less than a month's worth of dilithium for a single character - what do you feel is a "fair" timeline for a character to get to the new standard? I submit that a month really isn't too bad.
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If we had crystalline entity running or the mirror event always running we could get 300k in like 2 weeks. Now that is reasonable.
I'm wondering that as well. Will Mk XIV gear be purchasable? If so, where? Fleet? Rep?
We in fact do know that we can't buy Mk XIV gear. We also, I believe, can reasonably conclude that if we could buy such gear, it would be more expensive than the current Mk XII gear is. In fact, it would be MUCH more expensive, right? Thus, the upgrade system gets us the same Mk XIV gear for LESS than what we should have expected to pay for it if we were buying entirely new gear(as long as you use superior kits, and are willing to wait for upgrades to run instead of rushing them), and in fact gets us Mk XIV gear in many cases for less than what we originally paid for our Mk XII gear, thus preserving the value of the dilithium we've already invested.
In short, yes, I think it's reasonable dilithium costs if you consider what the cost trends for items actually are in the game now, and extrapolate those out, and I think it translates to a reasonable "real money" cost as well, if you compare it to the price you would have expected to pay for a paid expansion.
To your point in your other post about wanting the grinding to be more fun, I think that's just again an area where we have different perceptions. To me, the current system looks like fun, because it provides incentives for things I enjoy. That's always going to be a matter of opinion, I know, but I will say that if you feel like you don't have people you play with now who can help you with kits and the like, maybe this is a good reason to try branching out? To me, the upgrade system is something that is best done in a group, much like building a star base, etc., so I'm excited for the possibilities.
I'm in the here and now. Providing info about what really is happening and what it entails in the long run. Your point is just dark matter to me and needs serious clarification. I think the reason why you are confident with this is because you got friends to help you out. What about the lone rangers out there(like me)? If I "branch out" it would be to my own benefit which is wrong IMO. I don't believe in free rides. But I dont believe in thousand dollar hikes either.
I'm in the Middle Class of the STO Economy. I'm a Lifer, been here since season 1.1, and have 8 characters. 2 Active, 1 Semi-active, and 5 Retired. (All Caitian/Ferasan plus a Romulan, if you must know) On average I refine about 16,000 Dilithium a day and have at least 5 Million EC to play around with at all times. These are my complaints:
First off is the integration of the crafting system. Before you say you don't need it to upgrade weapons... You are both wrong and right. While you can easily obtain the common quality tech upgrades from your friendly neighborhood vendor, the cost in Dilithium to use them is horrendous. This, when given the fact that there exists better quality upgrades that cost less Dilithium to use forces people to look into using them instead. Here inlays the problem. They must either boost their crafting by grinding that system in order to craft their own upgrade items which is fine for levels 0-10 or pay someone to do it for them. The Very Rare and Ultra Rare upgrades are another story because of one fatal flaw...
These items require either party to grinding various STFs for Cryptic's NEW lottery tickets: Crafting item boxes. I have done the 3 main Borg ground STFs once a day on all 3 of my active characters and in the past week I have received a total of 5 [Plekton]! They did this once before with the "Chance to Drop" items in STFs! Remember how hard it was grinding for a chance to get the parts needed for M.A.C.O., OMEGA Force, and Honor Guard Mk XII items? People HATED it so they removed that system and put it in the Reputation system. Now the "Chance to Drop" items are back and Cryptic will either have to come up with a better way to get them, (Even if it's 3 per day per character! It's not that unreasonable!) or face the issues of WoW. Not to mention the introduction of Ultra Rare and possible EPIC R&D materials! With those I suppose I will only get 1 per month! This has got to stop!
The other thing is the Grinding. This has gone WAY too far! If you want to make new content, MAKE NEW CONTENT! Don't bludgeon us to death with constant grinding, make more story stuff! What happened to the Weekly series? When it first came out I was absolutely amazed! It made me so inspired, I went out and got a Lifetime Membership! Do more of that! If you continue the "Grindfest" you will cause the downfall and eventual destruction of one of the worlds #1 MMOs. You earned that title because of your amazing story, your (at the time) excellent F2P model, and your ultra dedicated fan base!
Oh and one thing I would like to see as a true challenge, bring back the OLD STFs. The ones that took 3-4 hours and forced people to work as a team or fail miserably. There are far too many "Lone Wolves" out there who love messing up things. Teach them a lesson in humility by granting an EPIC reward for completing the missions like [Reward Pack: 5,000 Choice Marks] that you use to get ALL the types of marks with! They were some of the most fun and challenging missions ever! Was it long? Yes. Was it hard? CATAR, YES! But the reward for completion was worth it, when it was the only way to get the full set of Borg tech. One of the VERY rare times I felt proud to have because of the skills I mastered.
This is my favorite game of all time. In the past it brought me great joy. Nowadays it brings me constant stress and I find I play it less and less. Yet will I ever stop playing? No. Why? Only because I am addicted to the game. These are my complaints.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to relieve some stress by trimming my fingernails with a belt-sander.
=/\=Admiral Ghost
You are right. Its grind2win.
The spreadsheet isn't the issue - I'm not saying the numbers on the spreadsheet aren't real, I'm saying those numbers aren't, to me, unreasonable. The reason I perceive them that way is I compare those numbers to what I would have expected to pay for brand new Mk XIV gear - I feel like I can reasonably ballpark where that cost would be, based on pricing trends, and I find the upgrade cost to be favorable. Insofar as you think I'm comparing the prices to something imaginary, my contention is that YOU are essentially comparing the prices as they are to what you WANT them to be (essentially "free"), which seems to be an equally "unreal" comparison (since we know the upgrades aren't going to be free), and is much less reasonable (since it doesn't, to me, represent a realistic possible option from Cryptic's perspective). I also think saying that the need for the company to make money is only tangentially relevant is, again, an example of what I was saying about how you are focusing on only the player, as if the company wasn't a stakeholder in this discussion. Simply put, it makes no sense to me to start from any premise that doesn't include "Cryptic spent a lot of money on DR, and needs to recoup those costs from players". So, yeah, as far as solid reasoning goes, I'm very sure I'm doing it right.
I'm not sure why you consider branching out and working with other people for mutual benefit to be a "free ride", but you are certainly correct that the explicit reason why I feel confident is that I know I can work with people in my fleet to help get all of us upgraded gear. I think that is a good thing. To your question of "what about the lone wolves", well, being a lone wolf is hard sometimes. I understand that people don't want to be "told how to play", or whatever, but I think that a system that encourages more player interaction is on balance probably better for the game, so throwing it out to suit solo players seems to me to be a net loss, even if the loan wolves don't see it that way.
*purrs softly* Why thank you!
You get a cute song for your understanding: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRC4Vk6kisY
Actually in order to get descent gear you do, look at the PVP community, but I digress.