This sounds like an awesome change, honestly. I already felt like the cost for the upgrades themselves was pretty reasonable, but the time gate/dil cost to finish was something like 2/3rds of the final cost to upgrade. If that comes down significantly, then the overall upgrade cost gets much cheaper.
Assuming you are going to inefficiently pay for the "insta-upgrade" as I call it. For those (like me) who were not planning on really using that feature, the overall dil sink remains the same. But the change is nice, and I welcome it.
Actually it was answered by borticus yesterday. New delta missions will drop mark 13 occasionally. Older missions will never do so. Mark 14 is not loot.
Not talking about the loot drops, I'm talking about the mission rewards.
My thread was closed and I was told to come here.....
Here's my 2 cents. The only dil sink in this upgrade system should be, as markhawkman put it, in obtaining gold quality items. I don't mind having to upgrade to mk XIII at lvl 55 and then upgrade again at lvl 60 to mk XIV. But when I pop my kit and item in, I expect to get a mk XIII version at same quality (for lvl 55) and a mk XIV version at same quality at lvl 60. Not a chance of upgrading, a guarantee. And then I would have the option of attempting to upgrade to gold quality OR upgrade my mk XI blue mission rewards (lobi items, consoles, etc etc). This way, the dil sink is less mandatory and more optional. Plus, doing it this way will reduce power creep (I think) and for those who HAVE to have the best stuff, they will be willing to sink the dilithium for gold quality items which means grinding for them and more $$$ for Cryptic/PWE. But making us all do this is just ridiculous.
I think you misread things or didn't fully look at everything. The only thing that you have a chance of an upgrade for is going to another rarity. Upgrading from Mark XII to Mark XII will always be guaranteed. It's just that if you want Mark XIII ultra rare, you probably won't get it right away.
To elaborate, this is what I want to have happen on the drop of X2. I log on and upgrade my ship to T5-U (if not done so already). I then have the option to upgrade my mk XI blue/purple gear to mk XII. I then play the new story missions etc etc till I hit lvl 55. Then I can have the option to upgrade my gear to Mk XIII at the cost of like 2k (max) dil per item with the guarantee that I get a mk XIII equivalent at the same quality. I can then do this for all my items. (yes there will still be a waiting period on all the items but, just as it is now, you can insta-upgrade using dil). I then continue with new content to get to level 60. (This will not affect the new mastery tree). I then will have the option to upgrade my mk XIII gear to mk XIV just the same as before when I upgraded to mk XIII. And then I'm done. And If I want to I can attempt to get my gear to epic, or gold, quality (This is where the dil sink will go). Anyone else like this idea? If not, please tell me why. thanks
You'll still have all these options, but as far as dilithium investment goes, the only real investment you need to make is if you want gold quality.
NOTE: By "upgrade" I mean, pull up the new UI, pop in the item, kit, and optional accelerator. The Tech points/experience will still play a role but only toward upgrading to epic or gold quality.
NOTE 1.2: In my suggestion, when upgrading I'm implying that mods carry over. In the case of getting a gamble on mods when moving from any quality lower than UR to UR, I suggest that we be allowed to see what that mod will be before we click "upgrade".
The overall goal of this idea was to remove the gamble and dil sink of this new system without completely throwing aside what the devs have already put their time into making for us. (With the exception of gold "epic" quality items)
I don't know what you've seen, but as far as upgrading goes, there is no gamble on mods except for when you move to a higher quality. Any mods you have on you item when you upgrade to the next mark will remain, especially if it is upgraded to a higher quality. The reason why they have the dilithium requirement is in order to get anything higher than rare/very rare.
Epic items are not supposed to be easy to obtain. Look at the tribbles that came out at that quality, along with the change in status of the items you get from the featured series and the consoles from c-store ships. Essentially the higher you go in quality, the harder it becomes to acquire the item in question.
Quick update note:
* In an upcoming patch (not sure when exactly it will hit), the time required for gear to finish its upgrade process should go down significantly. The cost to skip this timer will also go down significantly.
* We are continuing to add upgrade functionality. You should see upgrade functionality for more items in the next big update, including the Bajoran phaser pistol and rifle, the black version of the type 2 Federation phaser pistol, the CRM-200 cryonic cannon, and the synchronic proton distortion rifle. Keep an eye on the patch notes!
A welcome change, as some were suggesting that part of the solution was to reduce the time to upgrade.
If you look at it as a cost to upgrade an entire ship's equipment it is still a hard climb. But definitely a step in the right direction.
Keep up the good work adding in items for the upgrades.
Not talking about the loot drops, I'm talking about the mission rewards.
The Borticus quote and link was specifically addressing mission rewards.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
Assuming you are going to inefficiently pay for the "insta-upgrade" as I call it. For those (like me) who were not planning on really using that feature, the overall dil sink remains the same. But the change is nice, and I welcome it.
Well, sure, but frankly the cost for the upgrades if you are NOT paying for the instant upgrades strike me as extremely reasonable, as long as you aren't falling into the trap of using the green or blue upgrade kits. I am assuming that the purple kits will be relatively affordable on the exchange, and/or available to people who cultivate groups of friends who can each cover different crafting schools. Aside from the very rare materials, the superior kits just aren't that expensive to make, nor that time consuming. Ultimately, I think it's true that there won't be much of a "middle class" market for Mk XIV Epics, but crafters can likely make a tidy profit selling superior kits on the exchange. Even at around a million EC a kit (which is likely for any kits that require a "rarer" very rare material, like Craylon Gas), the EC cost for an upgrade in total is not out of the range for "average" players, because instead of having to have 17-20 million all at once, they can buy it in "installments".
Quick update note:
* In an upcoming patch (not sure when exactly it will hit), the time required for gear to finish its upgrade process should go down significantly. The cost to skip this timer will also go down significantly.
* We are continuing to add upgrade functionality. You should see upgrade functionality for more items in the next big update, including the Bajoran phaser pistol and rifle, the black version of the type 2 Federation phaser pistol, the CRM-200 cryonic cannon, and the synchronic proton distortion rifle. Keep an eye on the patch notes!
I think you misread things or didn't fully look at everything. The only thing that you have a chance of an upgrade for is going to another rarity. Upgrading from Mark XII to Mark XII will always be guaranteed. It's just that if you want Mark XIII ultra rare, you probably won't get it right away.
You'll still have all these options, but as far as dilithium investment goes, the only real investment you need to make is if you want gold quality.
I don't know what you've seen, but as far as upgrading goes, there is no gamble on mods except for when you move to a higher quality. Any mods you have on you item when you upgrade to the next mark will remain, especially if it is upgraded to a higher quality. The reason why they have the dilithium requirement is in order to get anything higher than rare/very rare.
Epic items are not supposed to be easy to obtain. Look at the tribbles that came out at that quality, along with the change in status of the items you get from the featured series and the consoles from c-store ships. Essentially the higher you go in quality, the harder it becomes to acquire the item in question.
So If I pop my Mk XII UR Fleet elite shield in, pop in a basic kit, no accelerator, and click "upgrade", I will get a mk XIII UR version? And then if I want a Mk XIV, I just have to do that again? That is NOT what I was told, nor was it what I saw. If not, again, this is what I would like to see. I pop in a mk XII UR elite shield, I pop in a basic kit, and click upgrade and I get a mk XIII UR elite shield. And then I repeat once more for a mk XIV UR. I then do this for all my gear. If this IS the case with no deviation, I will be fine with this upgrade system.
Quick update note:
* In an upcoming patch (not sure when exactly it will hit), the time required for gear to finish its upgrade process should go down significantly. The cost to skip this timer will also go down significantly.
* We are continuing to add upgrade functionality. You should see upgrade functionality for more items in the next big update, including the Bajoran phaser pistol and rifle, the black version of the type 2 Federation phaser pistol, the CRM-200 cryonic cannon, and the synchronic proton distortion rifle. Keep an eye on the patch notes!
we are more concern in the cost of the upgrade process itselft, than the timers. The amount of required dilitum is WAY out of line
So If I pop my Mk XII VR borg engines in, pop in a basic kit, no accelerator, and click "upgrade", I will get a mk XIII VR version? And then if I want a Mk XIV, I just have to do that again? That is NOT what I was told, nor was it what I saw. If not, again, this is what I would like to see. I pop in a mk XII elite shield, I pop in a basic kit, and click upgrade and I get a mk XIII UR elite shield. And then I repeat once more for a mk XIV.
I think you are thinking that the kits act as a sort of "lottery" chance to upgrade an item - they don't. Each kit applies a certain number of "Tech Points" to the item. 2000 for a basic kit, 5000 for an intermediate kit, and 12800 for a superior kit. Each kit also costs a certain amount of dilithium to apply. Once the total number of "Tech Points" on the item reaches a certain threshold (you can see the progress bar on the upgrade screen), then the upgrade to the next mark level is automatic. There is no chance involved at all.
The "Chance" aspect is in upgrading the "item quality" (rare to very rare to ultra rare to epic), which has a fairly low chance of happening on any given upgrade. However, once an item reaches Mk XIV, you can continue to put kits on it, and the quality upgrade chance will keep going up until it hits (and resets to zero), so with enough patience (and kits/dilithium) you can be certain you will (eventually) get your item to epic.
I think you are thinking that the kits act as a sort of "lottery" chance to upgrade an item - they don't. Each kit applies a certain number of "Tech Points" to the item. 2000 for a basic kit, 5000 for an intermediate kit, and 12800 for a superior kit. Each kit also costs a certain amount of dilithium to apply. Once the total number of "Tech Points" on the item reaches a certain threshold (you can see the progress bar on the upgrade screen), then the upgrade to the next mark level is automatic. There is no chance involved at all.
The "Chance" aspect is in upgrading the "item quality" (rare to very rare to ultra rare to epic), which has a fairly low chance of happening on any given upgrade. However, once an item reaches Mk XIV, you can continue to put kits on it, and the quality upgrade chance will keep going up until it hits (and resets to zero), so with enough patience (and kits/dilithium) you can be certain you will (eventually) get your item to epic.
I was looking for a yes or no. Seeing as how I didn't get one, I have a feeling I was originally correct. It isnt a simple task of popping in my fleet shield, a kit, and clicking upgrade is it? This is where my issue lies.
I want it to be a case where I pop in a mk XII UR fleet item, a kit, and click upgrade at the cost of X amount of dil and I get either a mk XIII or mk XIV UR version. (That doesn't mean putting in multiple kits at the rate of X amount of dilithium per, or per type). The kits quality will only play a role when you want to go up in quality. This idea to me is a simple and effective one. Especially in the large scale of things when you are like me and have more than 1 character. This also doesn't completely throw aside everything the developers have worked on all this time.
So, in short, get rid of the whole "tech points" aspect of it and its relationship to the kits. IMO, it's needless and creates an unnecessary dil sink. I know the developers have the best intentions but this is just how I feel.
Aside from that, the upgrade system looks flawless yet simple. And I like it.
I was looking for a yes or no. Seeing as how I didn't get one, I have a feeling I was originally correct. It isnt a simple task of popping in my fleet shield, a kit, and clicking upgrade is it? This is where my issue lies.
I want it to be a case where I pop in a mk XII UR fleet item, a kit, and click upgrade at the cost of X amount of dil and I get either a mk XIII or mk XIV UR version. (That doesn't mean putting in multiple kits at the rate of X amount of dilithium per, or per type). The kits quality will only play a role when you want to go up in quality. This idea to me is a simple and effective one. Especially in the large scale of things when you are like me and have more than 1 character. This also doesn't completely throw aside everything the developers have worked on all this time.
So, in short, get rid of the whole "tech points" aspect of it. IMO, it's needless and creates an unnecessary dil sink. I know the developers have the best intentions but this is just how I feel.
Aside from that, the upgrade system looks flawless yet simple. And I like it.
When I initially replied, I didn't realize I was misinformed about the dilithium cost for just applying even a basic kit upgrade. I don't like it.
With that said, if any devs are paying attention, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE get rid of the need to use dilithium on applying the kits except for Superior. If people want to use superior, they can spend dilithium. Not everyone can/is willing to shell out billions of dilithium to upgrade everything they own. That's what it'll cost in the end.
When I initially replied, I didn't realize I was misinformed about the dilithium cost for just applying even a basic kit upgrade. I don't like it.
With that said, if any devs are paying attention, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE get rid of the need to use dilithium on applying the kits except for Superior. If people want to use superior, they can spend dilithium. Not everyone can/is willing to shell out billions of dilithium to upgrade everything they own. That's what it'll cost in the end.
Yes, times the number of characters you have. In my case 11 :eek: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JU8ciOpp5kbplvwFanr7ast9THnAwC3LywmYHZREMx0/edit#gid=0
That is a spreadsheet of the current upgrade system. It includes dilithium costs and time costs as the game stands now.
As it stands, unaltered, it would cost 18,275 dil (roughly) per item if you choose not to complete them instantly. There are tabs showing estimates for overall cost in both time and dil/zen for both ground and space builds.
Like, I said... aside from this debatable but large issue, the new system is great!
I was looking for a yes or no. Seeing as how I didn't get one, I have a feeling I was originally correct. It isnt a simple task of popping in my fleet shield, a kit, and clicking upgrade is it? This is where my issue lies.
I want it to be a case where I pop in a mk XII UR fleet item, a kit, and click upgrade at the cost of X amount of dil and I get either a mk XIII or mk XIV UR version. (That doesn't mean putting in multiple kits at the rate of X amount of dilithium per, or per type). The kits quality will only play a role when you want to go up in quality. This idea to me is a simple and effective one. Especially in the large scale of things when you are like me and have more than 1 character. This also doesn't completely throw aside everything the developers have worked on all this time.
So, in short, get rid of the whole "tech points" aspect of it. IMO, it's needless and creates an unnecessary dil sink. I know the developers have the best intentions but this is just how I feel.
Aside from that, the upgrade system looks flawless yet simple. And I like it.
It is a simple task, it's just that you have to push the "upgrade" button more than once (typically like 17 times, which takes about 17 seconds). The reason this is GOOD is it allows people to pay for upgrades incrementally, instead of stockpiling to pay it all at once. Right now, using superior kits, it takes around 17,000 dilithium, total, to pay for the upgrades to a single item, assuming you are not skipping the time gates. That is, I assert, a reasonable price, especially since you can pay it in installments of about 1000 dilithium at a time. The only way the dilithium sink in the current system is "unreasonable" is if you try to use bad kits for your upgrades. Don't make that choice - either craft superior kits yourself, or get them from an in-game friend who makes them, or buy them off the exchange.
Yes, times the number of characters you have. In my case 11 :eek: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JU8ciOpp5kbplvwFanr7ast9THnAwC3LywmYHZREMx0/edit#gid=0
That is a spreadsheet of the current upgrade system. It includes dilithium costs and time costs as the game stands now.
As it stands, unaltered, it would cost 18,275 dil (roughly) per item if you choose not to complete them instantly. There are tabs showing estimates for overall cost in both time and dil/zen for both ground and space builds.
Like, I said... aside from this debatable but large issue, the new system is great!
note: It also includes the number of kits.
Go to the Space and Ground tabs to see more accurate prices, the 18,275 only applies to UR fleet space gear. The other tabs have the current costs for nearly everything else.
Edit: Nvm, reading to fast, missed bottom part of your post
When I initially replied, I didn't realize I was misinformed about the dilithium cost for just applying even a basic kit upgrade. I don't like it.
With that said, if any devs are paying attention, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE get rid of the need to use dilithium on applying the kits except for Superior. If people want to use superior, they can spend dilithium. Not everyone can/is willing to shell out billions of dilithium to upgrade everything they own. That's what it'll cost in the end.
No, see, you have it totally backwards - the entire advantage of the Superior kits is they are much, much (MUCH) cheaper dilithium sink overall than the basic kits. The basic kits are NOT the way you are "supposed" to upgrade items - they are "trap" option out there for people who, for whatever reason, choose not to participate in either the crafting system or the player to player economy.
Removing the dilithium costs from the basic kits essentially breaks the BEST part of this system, which is that it encourages people to actually participate, at some level, in the player to player economy of the game.
Well, regarding multiple toons and upgrading: Any chance to set every bound upgraded item, including those previously bound to character, to bound to account? Such a change would drastically reduce the costs to maintain alts up to date with the new upgrading system (at least for as far as main and alts share same eqipment), and such lost revenue fom upgrading would be more than compensated by additional revenue for ships, services, ect..
No, see, you have it totally backwards - the entire advantage of the Superior kits is they are much, much (MUCH) cheaper dilithium sink overall than the basic kits. The basic kits are NOT the way you are "supposed" to upgrade items - they are "trap" option out there for people who, for whatever reason, choose not to participate in either the crafting system or the player to player economy.
Removing the dilithium costs from the basic kits essentially breaks the BEST part of this system, which is that it encourages people to actually participate, at some level, in the player to player economy of the game.
Its still a dil sink. The guy that made the spreadsheet I posted earlier was using only superior kits and the data speaks for itself. It is less but it is still a lot. Not to mention the grinding that goes into getting the ability to craft your own. Or the grinding that goes into being able to afford enough for 1 character's worth of gear in terms of EC. No matter what, its an unnecessary dil sink/grind. Sure, its nice to make payments in installments. But I don't want this to be a case where I would even need installments. What I've suggested provides just that. And there is nothing wrong with that at all. Also, since when do we need to be encouraged to play? I love this game! I don't need encouragement to play. Especially since Delta rising is more than just Starship and gear upgrades. There is new story missions and PvEs to do. Thats where the encouragement should be. The whole gear upgrade system should be extremely passive and something you do along the way. It doesn't need to be as retroactive as it is designed to be.
Now I know the devs don't like to always read negativity and I apologize for it. Like I said, aside from ^above, the system is ingeniously simplistic and easy to use.
It is a simple task, it's just that you have to push the "upgrade" button more than once (typically like 17 times, which takes about 17 seconds). The reason this is GOOD is it allows people to pay for upgrades incrementally, instead of stockpiling to pay it all at once. Right now, using superior kits, it takes around 17,000 dilithium, total, to pay for the upgrades to a single item, assuming you are not skipping the time gates. That is, I assert, a reasonable price, especially since you can pay it in installments of about 1000 dilithium at a time. The only way the dilithium sink in the current system is "unreasonable" is if you try to use bad kits for your upgrades. Don't make that choice - either craft superior kits yourself, or get them from an in-game friend who makes them, or buy them off the exchange.
You will never have to stockpile your dilithium though. The only reason why you would have to stockpile your dilithium is if the upgrade button turned into an upgrade all button. Which it is not. So, subsequently, this whole installment idea is needless.
Its still a dil sink. The guy that made the spreadsheet I posted earlier was using only superior kits and the data speaks for itself. It is less but it is still a lot. Not to mention the grinding that goes into getting the ability to craft your own. Or the grinding that goes into being able to afford enough for 1 character's worth of gear in terms of EC. No matter what, its an unnecessary dil sink/grind. Sure, its nice to make payments in installments. But I don't want this to be a case where I would even need installments. What I've suggested provides just that. And there is nothing wrong with that at all. Also, since when do we need to be encouraged to play? I love this game! I don't need encouragement to play. Especially since Delta rising is more than just Starship and gear upgrades. There is new story missions and PvEs to do. Thats where the encouragement should be. The whole gear upgrade system should be extremely passive and something you do along the way. It doesn't need to be as retroactive as it is designed to be.
Now I know the devs don't like to always read negativity and I apologize for it. Like I said, aside from ^above, the system is ingeniously simplistic and easy to use.
I don't think you're being negative, so much as I think we just have literally entirely different views on what a reasonable cost for the upgrades is. You are saying you see the values in that spreadsheet as "too expensive", and I see them as almost shockingly cheap. My point of comparison is what I imagine it would have cost to have to buy entirely new Mk XIV fleet/rep gear, instead of upgrading the gear I've already got, and this system is a fantastic deal for the player.
Your mileage may vary, but I think expecting those dilithium costs to come down is probably unrealistic. Objectively, they are well in line with the current cost of Mk XII gear, so if you feel like current gear is too expensive, you likely won't like this system either. If, like me, you don't feel that current gear is too expensive, but you also don't relish the thought of essentially vendor-trashing the items you've already bought to buy entirely new items at a higher price, this seems like a good deal.
I don't think you're being negative, so much as I think we just have literally entirely different views on what a reasonable cost for the upgrades is. You are saying you see the values in that spreadsheet as "too expensive", and I see them as almost shockingly cheap. My point of comparison is what I imagine it would have cost to have to buy entirely new Mk XIV fleet/rep gear, instead of upgrading the gear I've already got, and this system is a fantastic deal for the player.
Your mileage may vary, but I think expecting those dilithium costs to come down is probably unrealistic. Objectively, they are well in line with the current cost of Mk XII gear, so if you feel like current gear is too expensive, you likely won't like this system either. If, like me, you don't feel that current gear is too expensive, but you also don't relish the thought of essentially vendor-trashing the items you've already bought to buy entirely new items at a higher price, this seems like a good deal.
Well then lets put it this way. If you are willing to pay more, more power to you. But it won't adversely affect you to have the cost reduced or the system slightly re-done. So to make any argument (bad choice of word but I had a brain TRIBBLE and couldn't think of anything else) from your POV is, in essence, saying "deal with it". Where's the harm, for the players, for the price to come down? Or for the system to be modified? I can't think of any. The only reason you will be right about the price not changing is because Cryptic/PWE (I don't know which) want to coddle us into purchasing zen. That is understandable but unfair. IMO, if dil is in the system of things, getting zen purchases will not be an issue. So, it is unnecessary to have any dil sink whatsoever. Which is nice about my suggestion where the dil sink would only be in getting gold items and nowhere else.
Go to the Space and Ground tabs to see more accurate prices, the 18,275 only applies to UR fleet space gear. The other tabs have the current costs for nearly everything else.
Excellent data compilation, it is quite interesting, and useful.
Excellent data compilation, it is quite interesting, and useful.
Yes I agree. It was extremely useful in seeing how all of my 80k dilithium is going to be used up on only a handful of items. . 80k dil could get me 8 fleet space weapons instantly. But with the upgrade system, I might get 5. Plus I would have to wait hours on each. Upgrading should be much cheaper than buying the items.
One other important note, oh glorious testers: When you upgrade an item the powers UI doesn't always refresh immediately. If you upgrade something and it looks like its values didn't change, move it to a different inventory slot and see if they update.
Okay, so after taking a look the space section of the chart, this is what it's going to cost me if I want to upgrade just a selection of items on my build for my engineer:
Total to upgrade to Mark XIV just for these: 204,250 dilithium or around 1104 zen. This is about as much as I have saved up to this point combined with all of my characters. Are you seriously saying that you're fine spending this much just to upgrade?
Well then lets put it this way. If you are willing to pay more, more power to you. But it won't adversely affect you to have the cost reduced or the system slightly re-done. So to make any argument (bad choice of word but I had a brain TRIBBLE and couldn't think of anything else) from your POV is, in essence, saying "deal with it". Where's the harm, for the players, for the price to come down? Or for the system to be modified? I can't think of any. The only reason you will be right about the price not changing is because Cryptic/PWE (I don't know which) want to coddle us into purchasing zen. That is understandable but unfair. IMO, if dil is in the system of things, getting zen purchases will not be an issue. So, it is unnecessary to have any dil sink whatsoever. Which is nice about my suggestion where the dil sink would only be in getting gold items and nowhere else.
The harm to players is that the current system exists, IMO, to foster a crafting economy which encourages player interaction, and allows virtually everyone to participate if they so choose. Your changes would eliminate most of those incentives, which I think is a bad thing. Moreover, I think your argument misses the fact that the player is not the only stakeholder in this discussion - PWE and Cryptic need to make money to pay for the investment they sank into this expansion, as well as finance the next round of game improvements. Saying "what's the harm to the player" misses that. Right now, like I said before, objectively the price of the upgrades is very reasonable compared to the current prices for Mk XII rep/fleet gear, and I think reducing those prices quickly becomes unreasonable when you think about it from the company's perspective. You can't compare the prices to "free" and say they are too much - it's much more reasonable to ask "what would I reasonably expect to pay for a brand new piece of Mk XIV gear if I was buying it in one go?", and compare the costs to that.
The creation of a continuous dilithium sink encourages the purchase and selling of zen for Dil which will reduce the current price of Zen on the market. I'm sure they factored that in after seeing what happens when a new SB Teir opens up.
All in all, not a bad move when you think about it from the point of view of keeping things F2P
Though the upgrade wait times are a bit excessive. Other side of that it encourages more alts, which encourages more Dil to be farmed naturally.
At level 60, if I open up a Special Weapons pack, it should offer me a mk XIV item. if not, then they are simply force-gating us to grind to get weapons of those marks.
The weapons packs only give us Very Rare. I'd still like the option to upgrade to Epic if I decide I want to go nuts with my spending... and if you read some of the dev responses buried back there, we can actually keep plugging away for Quality upgrades even after hitting Mk XIV. Since the costs may still be adjusted, it's possible that it may become reasonable to do so... though I admit that's a whole lot of "may" and "possible" for that to happen. :P
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
Okay, so after taking a look the space section of the chart, this is what it's going to cost me if I want to upgrade just a selection of items on my build for my engineer:
Total to upgrade to Mark XIV just for these: 204,250 dilithium or around 1104 zen. This is about as much as I have saved up to this point combined with all of my characters. Are you seriously saying that you're fine spending this much just to upgrade?
You forgot the warp core and consoles.
NERF CANNONS - THEY NEED A 50% NERF
CRUISERS NEED A 206% HULL BUFF
Comments
Assuming you are going to inefficiently pay for the "insta-upgrade" as I call it. For those (like me) who were not planning on really using that feature, the overall dil sink remains the same. But the change is nice, and I welcome it.
Not talking about the loot drops, I'm talking about the mission rewards.
I think you misread things or didn't fully look at everything. The only thing that you have a chance of an upgrade for is going to another rarity. Upgrading from Mark XII to Mark XII will always be guaranteed. It's just that if you want Mark XIII ultra rare, you probably won't get it right away.
You'll still have all these options, but as far as dilithium investment goes, the only real investment you need to make is if you want gold quality.
I don't know what you've seen, but as far as upgrading goes, there is no gamble on mods except for when you move to a higher quality. Any mods you have on you item when you upgrade to the next mark will remain, especially if it is upgraded to a higher quality. The reason why they have the dilithium requirement is in order to get anything higher than rare/very rare.
Epic items are not supposed to be easy to obtain. Look at the tribbles that came out at that quality, along with the change in status of the items you get from the featured series and the consoles from c-store ships. Essentially the higher you go in quality, the harder it becomes to acquire the item in question.
A welcome change, as some were suggesting that part of the solution was to reduce the time to upgrade.
If you look at it as a cost to upgrade an entire ship's equipment it is still a hard climb. But definitely a step in the right direction.
Keep up the good work adding in items for the upgrades.
The Borticus quote and link was specifically addressing mission rewards.
Well, sure, but frankly the cost for the upgrades if you are NOT paying for the instant upgrades strike me as extremely reasonable, as long as you aren't falling into the trap of using the green or blue upgrade kits. I am assuming that the purple kits will be relatively affordable on the exchange, and/or available to people who cultivate groups of friends who can each cover different crafting schools. Aside from the very rare materials, the superior kits just aren't that expensive to make, nor that time consuming. Ultimately, I think it's true that there won't be much of a "middle class" market for Mk XIV Epics, but crafters can likely make a tidy profit selling superior kits on the exchange. Even at around a million EC a kit (which is likely for any kits that require a "rarer" very rare material, like Craylon Gas), the EC cost for an upgrade in total is not out of the range for "average" players, because instead of having to have 17-20 million all at once, they can buy it in "installments".
UR Mk XII Engineering Console - Neutronium [+Turn]
I upgraded this Dilitium Mine vendored Console to Mk XIII but now I cannot claim it.
Apologies if this one was already noted.
maj!
Operations Team, 12th Fleet
Great changes
Can you give us the change for the time required? ATM it takes 1s for every ~.6TP an item has, what is the new figure? Would love to get that info upgraded on the spreadsheet I've been working on for the upgrade system.
we are more concern in the cost of the upgrade process itselft, than the timers. The amount of required dilitum is WAY out of line
Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
I agree. In my suggestion, I had put that the price should only really pertain to gold items and nothing more.
I think you are thinking that the kits act as a sort of "lottery" chance to upgrade an item - they don't. Each kit applies a certain number of "Tech Points" to the item. 2000 for a basic kit, 5000 for an intermediate kit, and 12800 for a superior kit. Each kit also costs a certain amount of dilithium to apply. Once the total number of "Tech Points" on the item reaches a certain threshold (you can see the progress bar on the upgrade screen), then the upgrade to the next mark level is automatic. There is no chance involved at all.
The "Chance" aspect is in upgrading the "item quality" (rare to very rare to ultra rare to epic), which has a fairly low chance of happening on any given upgrade. However, once an item reaches Mk XIV, you can continue to put kits on it, and the quality upgrade chance will keep going up until it hits (and resets to zero), so with enough patience (and kits/dilithium) you can be certain you will (eventually) get your item to epic.
I was looking for a yes or no. Seeing as how I didn't get one, I have a feeling I was originally correct. It isnt a simple task of popping in my fleet shield, a kit, and clicking upgrade is it? This is where my issue lies.
I want it to be a case where I pop in a mk XII UR fleet item, a kit, and click upgrade at the cost of X amount of dil and I get either a mk XIII or mk XIV UR version. (That doesn't mean putting in multiple kits at the rate of X amount of dilithium per, or per type). The kits quality will only play a role when you want to go up in quality. This idea to me is a simple and effective one. Especially in the large scale of things when you are like me and have more than 1 character. This also doesn't completely throw aside everything the developers have worked on all this time.
So, in short, get rid of the whole "tech points" aspect of it and its relationship to the kits. IMO, it's needless and creates an unnecessary dil sink. I know the developers have the best intentions but this is just how I feel.
Aside from that, the upgrade system looks flawless yet simple. And I like it.
When I initially replied, I didn't realize I was misinformed about the dilithium cost for just applying even a basic kit upgrade. I don't like it.
With that said, if any devs are paying attention, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE get rid of the need to use dilithium on applying the kits except for Superior. If people want to use superior, they can spend dilithium. Not everyone can/is willing to shell out billions of dilithium to upgrade everything they own. That's what it'll cost in the end.
Yes, times the number of characters you have. In my case 11 :eek:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JU8ciOpp5kbplvwFanr7ast9THnAwC3LywmYHZREMx0/edit#gid=0
That is a spreadsheet of the current upgrade system. It includes dilithium costs and time costs as the game stands now.
As it stands, unaltered, it would cost 18,275 dil (roughly) per item if you choose not to complete them instantly. There are tabs showing estimates for overall cost in both time and dil/zen for both ground and space builds.
Like, I said... aside from this debatable but large issue, the new system is great!
note: It also includes the number of kits.
It is a simple task, it's just that you have to push the "upgrade" button more than once (typically like 17 times, which takes about 17 seconds). The reason this is GOOD is it allows people to pay for upgrades incrementally, instead of stockpiling to pay it all at once. Right now, using superior kits, it takes around 17,000 dilithium, total, to pay for the upgrades to a single item, assuming you are not skipping the time gates. That is, I assert, a reasonable price, especially since you can pay it in installments of about 1000 dilithium at a time. The only way the dilithium sink in the current system is "unreasonable" is if you try to use bad kits for your upgrades. Don't make that choice - either craft superior kits yourself, or get them from an in-game friend who makes them, or buy them off the exchange.
Go to the Space and Ground tabs to see more accurate prices, the 18,275 only applies to UR fleet space gear. The other tabs have the current costs for nearly everything else.
Edit: Nvm, reading to fast, missed bottom part of your post
No, see, you have it totally backwards - the entire advantage of the Superior kits is they are much, much (MUCH) cheaper dilithium sink overall than the basic kits. The basic kits are NOT the way you are "supposed" to upgrade items - they are "trap" option out there for people who, for whatever reason, choose not to participate in either the crafting system or the player to player economy.
Removing the dilithium costs from the basic kits essentially breaks the BEST part of this system, which is that it encourages people to actually participate, at some level, in the player to player economy of the game.
Its still a dil sink. The guy that made the spreadsheet I posted earlier was using only superior kits and the data speaks for itself. It is less but it is still a lot. Not to mention the grinding that goes into getting the ability to craft your own. Or the grinding that goes into being able to afford enough for 1 character's worth of gear in terms of EC. No matter what, its an unnecessary dil sink/grind. Sure, its nice to make payments in installments. But I don't want this to be a case where I would even need installments. What I've suggested provides just that. And there is nothing wrong with that at all. Also, since when do we need to be encouraged to play? I love this game! I don't need encouragement to play. Especially since Delta rising is more than just Starship and gear upgrades. There is new story missions and PvEs to do. Thats where the encouragement should be. The whole gear upgrade system should be extremely passive and something you do along the way. It doesn't need to be as retroactive as it is designed to be.
Now I know the devs don't like to always read negativity and I apologize for it. Like I said, aside from ^above, the system is ingeniously simplistic and easy to use.
You will never have to stockpile your dilithium though. The only reason why you would have to stockpile your dilithium is if the upgrade button turned into an upgrade all button. Which it is not. So, subsequently, this whole installment idea is needless.
I don't think you're being negative, so much as I think we just have literally entirely different views on what a reasonable cost for the upgrades is. You are saying you see the values in that spreadsheet as "too expensive", and I see them as almost shockingly cheap. My point of comparison is what I imagine it would have cost to have to buy entirely new Mk XIV fleet/rep gear, instead of upgrading the gear I've already got, and this system is a fantastic deal for the player.
Your mileage may vary, but I think expecting those dilithium costs to come down is probably unrealistic. Objectively, they are well in line with the current cost of Mk XII gear, so if you feel like current gear is too expensive, you likely won't like this system either. If, like me, you don't feel that current gear is too expensive, but you also don't relish the thought of essentially vendor-trashing the items you've already bought to buy entirely new items at a higher price, this seems like a good deal.
Well then lets put it this way. If you are willing to pay more, more power to you. But it won't adversely affect you to have the cost reduced or the system slightly re-done. So to make any argument (bad choice of word but I had a brain TRIBBLE and couldn't think of anything else) from your POV is, in essence, saying "deal with it". Where's the harm, for the players, for the price to come down? Or for the system to be modified? I can't think of any. The only reason you will be right about the price not changing is because Cryptic/PWE (I don't know which) want to coddle us into purchasing zen. That is understandable but unfair. IMO, if dil is in the system of things, getting zen purchases will not be an issue. So, it is unnecessary to have any dil sink whatsoever. Which is nice about my suggestion where the dil sink would only be in getting gold items and nowhere else.
My character Tsin'xing
Yes I agree. It was extremely useful in seeing how all of my 80k dilithium is going to be used up on only a handful of items.
Assimilated Deflector: 26,875
Assimilated Engines: 26,875
MACO shield: 26,875
Kinetic Cutting beam: 26,875
5x Fleet Antiproton: 91,375 total
Gravimetric Photon Torpedo: 16,125
Omnidirectional Antiproton array: 16,125
Total to upgrade to Mark XIV just for these: 204,250 dilithium or around 1104 zen. This is about as much as I have saved up to this point combined with all of my characters. Are you seriously saying that you're fine spending this much just to upgrade?
The harm to players is that the current system exists, IMO, to foster a crafting economy which encourages player interaction, and allows virtually everyone to participate if they so choose. Your changes would eliminate most of those incentives, which I think is a bad thing. Moreover, I think your argument misses the fact that the player is not the only stakeholder in this discussion - PWE and Cryptic need to make money to pay for the investment they sank into this expansion, as well as finance the next round of game improvements. Saying "what's the harm to the player" misses that. Right now, like I said before, objectively the price of the upgrades is very reasonable compared to the current prices for Mk XII rep/fleet gear, and I think reducing those prices quickly becomes unreasonable when you think about it from the company's perspective. You can't compare the prices to "free" and say they are too much - it's much more reasonable to ask "what would I reasonably expect to pay for a brand new piece of Mk XIV gear if I was buying it in one go?", and compare the costs to that.
All in all, not a bad move when you think about it from the point of view of keeping things F2P
Though the upgrade wait times are a bit excessive. Other side of that it encourages more alts, which encourages more Dil to be farmed naturally.
The weapons packs only give us Very Rare. I'd still like the option to upgrade to Epic if I decide I want to go nuts with my spending... and if you read some of the dev responses buried back there, we can actually keep plugging away for Quality upgrades even after hitting Mk XIV. Since the costs may still be adjusted, it's possible that it may become reasonable to do so... though I admit that's a whole lot of "may" and "possible" for that to happen. :P
You forgot the warp core and consoles.
CRUISERS NEED A 206% HULL BUFF