I thought you were a dedicated fan of Star Trek Online. If you feel that way, where does that leave the rest of us... Holy ****?
You obviously have not been reading his posts for the last few years if you thought he was a fanboy.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
He has been critical and quite brutal sometimes in his comments. But he stayed in spite of that, showing true signs of fanboyism. That last one sounded like he's giving up completely.
You mistake my enthusiasm for great discussions, and my dedication to my fleet for allegiance towards STO and Cryptic.
Once the last member of my fleet leaves, so do I.
Also, I gave up when they introduced the fleet ships.
Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
Well considering that there is more inductive reasoning in saying "there won't be any tier 7 ships for a while" compared to "there won't be any tier 6 ships for a while", they are definitely predictions on vastly different scales.
Consider how long tier 5 ships have been in Fed/KDF service: Since the Dominion War. Negh'Vars and Sovereigns were the first tier 5 ships, and there were already Galaxy retrofits used back then. And that was what, 40 or so years ago in-continuity? Seems about right to bump the tier up after a few decades.
But tier 7 ships? Let's put it into perspective: STO has only covered about a year in-continuity, maybe not even that. If they take a half a decade IRL to cover a year in-continuity, we won't see tier 7 ships for many, many years, unless Cryptic decides to do a timeskip. Besides, if going by the Enterprise-to-tier ratio, the Enterprise-G needs to be tier 6 before the Enterprises -H and -I at tier 7.
And in game a tier has generally lasted two years (four if you rightly consider that Fleet ships weren't a full tier increase, just a moderate stat buff). There is absolutely no reason for gameplay or story to start speculating about another tier increase now. I know (for some of you out there) we're at that odd point between antipication and aquisition where "what's next" seems like a very easy question to ask put practically speaking T7 is rather inconcievable at the moment.
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
And you're still not getting the point... There are hundreds of different things they could do, just with the ships before they would have needed to even consider moving to a new tier... They just took the lazy way out.
And thats JUST on the ships... Don't even get started on the thousands of other things they could have done to earn money, without eventually pushing people away.
There was no reason to move on.
.
There's hundreds of different small adjustments but they've run through the list of major ship classes and ship types. All we've had to look forward to for a while now are novelty gimmicks (see. rear turrets, dual modes) and any attempt at filling out the KDF and ROM shipyards (which is just faction maintenance).
That's not a state where you can easily maintain a general interest in the game (though afficianados may be excited about each single bell/whistle a new ship is released with.) T6 on the other hand allows for that general excitement by developing more basic areas of the game.
Not only is it an excuse to revisit just what the hell end-game content should be (its been settled at fleet weapons for a good long while now which may not be the best situation now) it also gives cryptic the lattitude to invent entirely new classes of ships and ship roles (see. intel. That couldn't have happened at T5 because dedicating officers away form core tac/eng/sci abilities is a much more serious problem there). And you can bet that what we're seeing at T6 now is just the start of cryptics creative overhaul of end-game content since intel is not going to be the only new type of specialist boff (eventually) or for that matter specialist ship type.
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
There's hundreds of different small adjustments but they've run through the list of major ship classes and ship types. All we've had to look forward to for a while now are novelty gimmicks (see. rear turrets, dual modes) and any attempt at filling out the KDF and ROM shipyards (which is just faction maintenance).
That's not a state where you can easily maintain a general interest in the game (though afficianados may be excited about each single bell/whistle a new ship is released with.) T6 on the other hand allows for that general excitement by developing more basic areas of the game.
Not only is it an excuse to revisit just what the hell end-game content should be (its been settled at fleet weapons for a good long while now which may not be the best situation now) it also gives cryptic the lattitude to invent entirely new classes of ships and ship roles (see. intel. That couldn't have happened at T5 because dedicating officers away form core tac/eng/sci abilities is a much more serious problem there). And you can bet that what we're seeing at T6 now is just the start of cryptics creative overhaul of end-game content since intel is not going to be the only new type of specialist boff (eventually) or for that matter specialist ship type.
I am not sure I understand?
Are you saying that they could not have just as easily introduced the specialization BO's to the current T5 ship line?
If so... Are you nuts?
Otherwise: What are you saying?
Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
I believe it was Gorngonzolla who mentioned that they were running out of Boff configuration combinations and prety soon would be left with repeating everything that had already been done.
Now of course they have the universal Boff to play with and a few Boff layouts that have never been used, probably do to balancing issues.
Comm, Lt., Lt., Lt., Lt.
Comm, Comm, Lt., Lt.
Comm Comm, Lt., Ens, Ens
Lt. Comm, Lt. Comm, Lt. Comm, Lt. Comm; this one I thought could work on the Arcturus Baran Raider as he never trusted his crew enough to warrant a Commander position.
Mostly these would probably never be tried for one reason or another so.....
I figure a Dev came up with the idea for Boff specialization as the answer.
This could most certainly have been implimented on Tier 5 ships and could sustain ship layouts for quite a long time.
When they thought of these specializations they saw it as a means of captain advancement.
The idea for ship mastery also came about and it too was thought of as a means of captain advancement.
Remember that the Reputation System was intended as a lateral means of captain advancement and that was never realized properly.
With two benefits from captain advancement thay came to the conclusion that a level increase would make sense.
With the level increase and all these new ship features it was decided that a new tier of ships could be made and sold on the idea that they were the new shiney with newer and better specializations in the future to buff that shine and lead to even more sales.
Then one dev in that room said, umm what about the 100+ Tier 5's everyone already has?
The same or a different dev then might have said the best they could have ready for the expansion would be a handful of Tier 6's.
One dev might of even cried out in panic, what about the Lockbox ships!?!?!?
It was decided quickly that Lockbox/ Lobi ships would be treated as they were when Fleet ships arrived and they would be upgraded for free.
Then they said we can even allow for other Tier 5's to be upgraded and they could charge for it.
As the devs danced about the room letting off their imaginary party poppers, (yes, now we know why we have those) they froze and said how will we sell Tier 6's if Tier 5's can be upgraded?
They figured out how to make Tier 6's different from upgraded Tier 5's and ran to make their blogs for the expansion.
One dev whose blog that included text to merely assure new tier 6 ship special consoles would indeed be useable in a future Fleet variant failed to see what such an assurance would do.
It is probable to assume that Fleet Tier 6 ships were already on the horizon but whether or not a second upgrade from T5U to something such as my suggested T5E is pure speculation.
I started this thread to put forward my suggestion for an upgrade system that would not only allow clear and seamless transitions for our already made purchases but allay any consternation about future ship sales by allowing for this upgrade system to be used as a framework for any and all possible future ship Tiers.
I had hoped for more feedback along the lines of whether it was a fair and equitable process or totally off the mark and there have been a few comments that have been keeping within the scope of this thread and I hope for more in the future.
There is one big downside to the F2P model and that is in-game inflation. I'm not talking directly about zen or dili, but it is related. The major cause of inflation in a F2P game is power creep.
Once it gets to a certain point, it has to be devalued. In an MMO game devaluing is accomplished by doing a gear reset. IE. Bringing out a new tier of content, gear, accomplishments, accolades etc.
If the company doesn't do this, then the game just becomes a stale rep/fleet grind fest.
This is going to happen and as long as the game keeps running, it will happen again and again.
In fairness to STO, it doesn't seem to be as money grabbing as other games I've played (one Russian MMO had guys dropping $500-1000 per month on the game because it would give them a clear advantage). I've found I get pretty good value for the money I've converted into zen. So, I'm going to hang around and actually see what DR brings in terms of "F2P".
Cheers!
PS...Oh yeah, there's one thing that really annoys me. Why on earth can't bank and inventory slot increases be account shared and not bound to char? Some people could spend up to $100 to increase their in game capacity. They shouldn't have to do that for all chars, especially when they have to pay for account shared slots too. Come on Cryptic, give it to us at least for the base 3/4 chars that we can create!
Money can change a lot of things to a company. At this point it's nothing but speculation, however, I can very, very easily see Cryptic making at least T6U ships sooner rather than later.
If you're looking at it that it won't happen because it wouldn't make much sense in terms of the story line of a made up IP for a made up game of a made up IP, fat chance. The story or even the IP itself is nothing short but cosmetic and easy thing to manipulate in how it will benefit Cryptic the most(not like it's real to begin with).
I'm betting that Delta Rising is going to make them a very good amount of $$$ thanks to both level cap increase but more importantly, newer and better ships. I'll even up the odds and say that in terms of revenue this will be their best yet aside from when the game was first released with pre-orders, lifetime subscriptions and all.
The shareholders are watching...
Retired. I'm now in search for that perfect space anomaly.
PS...Oh yeah, there's one thing that really annoys me. Why on earth can't bank and inventory slot increases be account shared and not bound to char? Some people could spend up to $100 to increase their in game capacity. They shouldn't have to do that for all chars, especially when they have to pay for account shared slots too. Come on Cryptic, give it to us at least for the base 3/4 chars that we can create!
Welcome to the F2P model....
Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
I've been getting it all along... But I still don't beleive that their current implementation is the best and most effective way to do it.
To you, maybe
But, to their shareholders, I think they're doing a good job.
Don't get me wrong. I don't agree with it, nor do I have any stake in PWE. But that's just the food chain around here now. Shareholders need more profit and the only way to do that under F2P is to make new things to sell.
Under P2P it has to be done through content and marketing.
I wonder if PWE would consider doing what some other F2P games have done recently and create a secondary P2P only server? Would anyone be interested in it considering the amount some people have spent (time and money) on the F2P version?
Cryptic is going down the path where they have to offer ever more powerful additions to the game.
Short term, thats a very profitable buissness, but at eventually, they will reach a saturation point where even the whales are no longer interested in investing, because "whats the point? It will just be not-worth it next time".
Right now, they can do it small bits at a time, but eventually they will have to take larger steps to peak the interest of the big spenders, at that time, the shareholders will get nothing.
It's not like Cryptic are the first to go down the road, and the results are always the same... It may take a year, it may take 5, but it will come eventually.
Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
It may take a year, it may take 5, but it will come eventually.
And that's when the new STO game will be released . If they do this right, they'll be able to milk the IP out of this for years. It will become a perpetual cycle.
And that's when the new STO game will be released . If they do this right, they'll be able to milk the IP out of this for years. It will become a perpetual cycle.
You probably should not expect a Second ST MMO...
Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
I'm not expecting anything from them. In a roundabout way I'm showing how this game could become the complete antithesis of what Star Trek was all about (if it's not half way there already).
But if people are happy to play it, then why not .
Cryptic is going down the path where they have to offer ever more powerful additions to the game.
Short term, thats a very profitable buissness, but at eventually, they will reach a saturation point where even the whales are no longer interested in investing, because "whats the point? It will just be not-worth it next time".
Sadly I've seen this one too many times.
I've come to the conclusion that it's either:
A) game companies for F2P MMO models don't learn their lessons from other game companies or this is the natural life cycle of most F2P MMO model.
I'm leaning towards B. I'd find it hard to believe that they don't learn their lessons from others.
Retired. I'm now in search for that perfect space anomaly.
A) game companies for F2P MMO models don't learn their lessons from other game companies or this is the natural life cycle of most F2P MMO model.
I'm leaning towards B. I'd find it hard to believe that they don't learn their lessons from others.
It's only B, because it's such a beneficial model in it's initial phases... They do NOT learn from others, cause then they would know that they are actively limiting the lifecycle of their product.
Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
I had a worrisome feeling about PWE's money-grab reputation when they took over from Cryptic. I loved the game too much to give up on it then.
When fleet versions of c-store ships were announced it made me think that there was truth to PWE's reputation. Still, the game was fun and I stuck with it.
The reputation system came along and created a massive grind, which I tolerated because I had invested too much time into STO to quit.
Power creep really started to become apparent, and I did my best to ride that wave and stay near the top end.
By the time I saw how the new crafting system worked I had had enough of the grinding, and drifted away to become one of those players that just checks up on the game once in a while.
After reading about all the future changes, the inclusion of T6 ships and raising the level cap along with mk XIV gear, I know that my time with STO has definitely come to an end. A couple of weeks ago I had un-installed STO, and reading about the current state of the game only confirms that I made the right decision.
The last straw was seeing everything that I had worked for over the last few years become completely obsolete. I see no reason to continue investing more time and money into a game run by a company that has no respect for the time and money that I have already give them.
Unfortunately, this seems to be the state of the gaming industry for the most part, especially when it comes to MMO's. For the first time in my life I can't find any game that inspires me.
But seriously... how much data is there on MMO longevity? I think it's premature to attempt to predict longevity with the scant few years of data people have. But there is one thing that I know for sure.... bored players tend to play something else. New stuff = less boredom.
By obsolete I meant that my gear became non-competitive with those that run the cutting edge gear.
The only thing that kept the grind interesting before was tweaking my build for maximum DPS. That would no longer be possible with the gear that I worked so long and hard to earn.
So . . . yes, I could play the game with what I currently have. However, the value of what I currently have has been greatly diminished by PWE. Hence, my opinion that PWE does not respect the time and money invested by their players.
But seriously... how much data is there on MMO longevity? I think it's premature to attempt to predict longevity with the scant few years of data people have. But there is one thing that I know for sure.... bored players tend to play something else. New stuff = less boredom.
I generally prefer not to estimate... I do it on rare occasions, but always with a certain caution.
I am just saying, that usually taking the easy way out will usually bite you in the butt in the other end.
Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
Comments
I am flattered... Thank you.
You mistake my enthusiasm for great discussions, and my dedication to my fleet for allegiance towards STO and Cryptic.
Once the last member of my fleet leaves, so do I.
Also, I gave up when they introduced the fleet ships.
And in game a tier has generally lasted two years (four if you rightly consider that Fleet ships weren't a full tier increase, just a moderate stat buff). There is absolutely no reason for gameplay or story to start speculating about another tier increase now. I know (for some of you out there) we're at that odd point between antipication and aquisition where "what's next" seems like a very easy question to ask put practically speaking T7 is rather inconcievable at the moment.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
There's hundreds of different small adjustments but they've run through the list of major ship classes and ship types. All we've had to look forward to for a while now are novelty gimmicks (see. rear turrets, dual modes) and any attempt at filling out the KDF and ROM shipyards (which is just faction maintenance).
That's not a state where you can easily maintain a general interest in the game (though afficianados may be excited about each single bell/whistle a new ship is released with.) T6 on the other hand allows for that general excitement by developing more basic areas of the game.
Not only is it an excuse to revisit just what the hell end-game content should be (its been settled at fleet weapons for a good long while now which may not be the best situation now) it also gives cryptic the lattitude to invent entirely new classes of ships and ship roles (see. intel. That couldn't have happened at T5 because dedicating officers away form core tac/eng/sci abilities is a much more serious problem there). And you can bet that what we're seeing at T6 now is just the start of cryptics creative overhaul of end-game content since intel is not going to be the only new type of specialist boff (eventually) or for that matter specialist ship type.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
I am not sure I understand?
Are you saying that they could not have just as easily introduced the specialization BO's to the current T5 ship line?
If so... Are you nuts?
Otherwise: What are you saying?
Now of course they have the universal Boff to play with and a few Boff layouts that have never been used, probably do to balancing issues.
Comm, Lt., Lt., Lt., Lt.
Comm, Comm, Lt., Lt.
Comm Comm, Lt., Ens, Ens
Lt. Comm, Lt. Comm, Lt. Comm, Lt. Comm; this one I thought could work on the Arcturus Baran Raider as he never trusted his crew enough to warrant a Commander position.
Mostly these would probably never be tried for one reason or another so.....
I figure a Dev came up with the idea for Boff specialization as the answer.
This could most certainly have been implimented on Tier 5 ships and could sustain ship layouts for quite a long time.
When they thought of these specializations they saw it as a means of captain advancement.
The idea for ship mastery also came about and it too was thought of as a means of captain advancement.
Remember that the Reputation System was intended as a lateral means of captain advancement and that was never realized properly.
With two benefits from captain advancement thay came to the conclusion that a level increase would make sense.
With the level increase and all these new ship features it was decided that a new tier of ships could be made and sold on the idea that they were the new shiney with newer and better specializations in the future to buff that shine and lead to even more sales.
Then one dev in that room said, umm what about the 100+ Tier 5's everyone already has?
The same or a different dev then might have said the best they could have ready for the expansion would be a handful of Tier 6's.
One dev might of even cried out in panic, what about the Lockbox ships!?!?!?
It was decided quickly that Lockbox/ Lobi ships would be treated as they were when Fleet ships arrived and they would be upgraded for free.
Then they said we can even allow for other Tier 5's to be upgraded and they could charge for it.
As the devs danced about the room letting off their imaginary party poppers, (yes, now we know why we have those) they froze and said how will we sell Tier 6's if Tier 5's can be upgraded?
They figured out how to make Tier 6's different from upgraded Tier 5's and ran to make their blogs for the expansion.
One dev whose blog that included text to merely assure new tier 6 ship special consoles would indeed be useable in a future Fleet variant failed to see what such an assurance would do.
It is probable to assume that Fleet Tier 6 ships were already on the horizon but whether or not a second upgrade from T5U to something such as my suggested T5E is pure speculation.
I started this thread to put forward my suggestion for an upgrade system that would not only allow clear and seamless transitions for our already made purchases but allay any consternation about future ship sales by allowing for this upgrade system to be used as a framework for any and all possible future ship Tiers.
I had hoped for more feedback along the lines of whether it was a fair and equitable process or totally off the mark and there have been a few comments that have been keeping within the scope of this thread and I hope for more in the future.
There is one big downside to the F2P model and that is in-game inflation. I'm not talking directly about zen or dili, but it is related. The major cause of inflation in a F2P game is power creep.
Once it gets to a certain point, it has to be devalued. In an MMO game devaluing is accomplished by doing a gear reset. IE. Bringing out a new tier of content, gear, accomplishments, accolades etc.
If the company doesn't do this, then the game just becomes a stale rep/fleet grind fest.
This is going to happen and as long as the game keeps running, it will happen again and again.
In fairness to STO, it doesn't seem to be as money grabbing as other games I've played (one Russian MMO had guys dropping $500-1000 per month on the game because it would give them a clear advantage). I've found I get pretty good value for the money I've converted into zen. So, I'm going to hang around and actually see what DR brings in terms of "F2P".
Cheers!
PS...Oh yeah, there's one thing that really annoys me. Why on earth can't bank and inventory slot increases be account shared and not bound to char? Some people could spend up to $100 to increase their in game capacity. They shouldn't have to do that for all chars, especially when they have to pay for account shared slots too. Come on Cryptic, give it to us at least for the base 3/4 chars that we can create!
Money can change a lot of things to a company. At this point it's nothing but speculation, however, I can very, very easily see Cryptic making at least T6U ships sooner rather than later.
If you're looking at it that it won't happen because it wouldn't make much sense in terms of the story line of a made up IP for a made up game of a made up IP, fat chance. The story or even the IP itself is nothing short but cosmetic and easy thing to manipulate in how it will benefit Cryptic the most(not like it's real to begin with).
I'm betting that Delta Rising is going to make them a very good amount of $$$ thanks to both level cap increase but more importantly, newer and better ships. I'll even up the odds and say that in terms of revenue this will be their best yet aside from when the game was first released with pre-orders, lifetime subscriptions and all.
The shareholders are watching...
Welcome to the F2P model....
Woohoo!
Now, you're getting it
I've been getting it all along... But I still don't beleive that their current implementation is the best and most effective way to do it.
But, to their shareholders, I think they're doing a good job.
Don't get me wrong. I don't agree with it, nor do I have any stake in PWE. But that's just the food chain around here now. Shareholders need more profit and the only way to do that under F2P is to make new things to sell.
Under P2P it has to be done through content and marketing.
I wonder if PWE would consider doing what some other F2P games have done recently and create a secondary P2P only server? Would anyone be interested in it considering the amount some people have spent (time and money) on the F2P version?
Cheers!
Short term, thats a very profitable buissness, but at eventually, they will reach a saturation point where even the whales are no longer interested in investing, because "whats the point? It will just be not-worth it next time".
Right now, they can do it small bits at a time, but eventually they will have to take larger steps to peak the interest of the big spenders, at that time, the shareholders will get nothing.
It's not like Cryptic are the first to go down the road, and the results are always the same... It may take a year, it may take 5, but it will come eventually.
And that's when the new STO game will be released
You probably should not expect a Second ST MMO...
I'm not expecting anything from them. In a roundabout way I'm showing how this game could become the complete antithesis of what Star Trek was all about (if it's not half way there already).
But if people are happy to play it, then why not
Sadly I've seen this one too many times.
I've come to the conclusion that it's either:
A) game companies for F2P MMO models don't learn their lessons from other game companies or
I'm leaning towards B. I'd find it hard to believe that they don't learn their lessons from others.
It's only B, because it's such a beneficial model in it's initial phases... They do NOT learn from others, cause then they would know that they are actively limiting the lifecycle of their product.
Hydra... Omg...
When fleet versions of c-store ships were announced it made me think that there was truth to PWE's reputation. Still, the game was fun and I stuck with it.
The reputation system came along and created a massive grind, which I tolerated because I had invested too much time into STO to quit.
Power creep really started to become apparent, and I did my best to ride that wave and stay near the top end.
By the time I saw how the new crafting system worked I had had enough of the grinding, and drifted away to become one of those players that just checks up on the game once in a while.
After reading about all the future changes, the inclusion of T6 ships and raising the level cap along with mk XIV gear, I know that my time with STO has definitely come to an end. A couple of weeks ago I had un-installed STO, and reading about the current state of the game only confirms that I made the right decision.
The last straw was seeing everything that I had worked for over the last few years become completely obsolete. I see no reason to continue investing more time and money into a game run by a company that has no respect for the time and money that I have already give them.
Unfortunately, this seems to be the state of the gaming industry for the most part, especially when it comes to MMO's. For the first time in my life I can't find any game that inspires me.
But seriously... how much data is there on MMO longevity? I think it's premature to attempt to predict longevity with the scant few years of data people have. But there is one thing that I know for sure.... bored players tend to play something else. New stuff = less boredom.
My character Tsin'xing
The only thing that kept the grind interesting before was tweaking my build for maximum DPS. That would no longer be possible with the gear that I worked so long and hard to earn.
So . . . yes, I could play the game with what I currently have. However, the value of what I currently have has been greatly diminished by PWE. Hence, my opinion that PWE does not respect the time and money invested by their players.
I generally prefer not to estimate... I do it on rare occasions, but always with a certain caution.
I am just saying, that usually taking the easy way out will usually bite you in the butt in the other end.