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Phasers are absolutely terrible.

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  • sohtohsohtoh Member Posts: 620 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Even with the new Xindi Phasers, not impressed by them.

    IF I had to use Phasers, unless I have a regular Mk XII with favorable mods, I'd use the BM Phasers. Esp. when working with the 8472 weapon set bonus and the possibility of the console to increase phaser dmg and radiation.

    You do realize that the console you are referring to is a tactical console? You would have to give up one of your much stronger phaser relays or phaser locator console to equip it, thereby hurting the damage of your primary weapon to increase the radiation proc.
    "I'm not big on telepaths myself. I'm not big on guns either. But if everyone else has them, I want to make sure I can get my hands on the biggest one I can."
  • captainzheicaptainzhei Member Posts: 203 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Phasers, in canon, are designed to be highly adaptable energy weapons, capable of being tuned to the power setting needed to perform pinpoint operations (such as knocking out shields, engines or weapons) without inflicting a heavy cost to life aboard the offending vessel. Personal phasers are configured to be able to Stun (incapacitate) an aggressor without killing them.

    In canon, Disruptors and Plasma weapons do not carry that sort of adaptability. They're designed specifically to kill, and quickly.

    Perhaps an Accuracy bonus could be logical, but I don't see phasers as being terrible. I used them almost exclusively until I have access to reputation weapons.
    ==========================================
    Captaincy, Excelsior-Class U.S.S. Bianca Beauchamp NCC-99947-F

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    sohtoh wrote: »
    You do realize that the console you are referring to is a tactical console? You would have to give up one of your much stronger phaser relays or phaser locator console to equip it, thereby hurting the damage of your primary weapon to increase the radiation proc.

    The tradeoff is worthwhile.

    Firstly, the 8472 related console increases Phaser/Disruptor dmg. Not on the same scale as a dedicated Spire Console mind you, but it's not like it's a total loss.

    Secondly, the console increases the Radiation dmg by 20%. It was not surprising to see in my combat log the Radiation damage doing about 2.0-2.2k damage. With the different sources of a dedicated BM Incubation-based build (energy weapons, torps/Enhanced BM Torp), this effect is quite useful.

    Thirdly, the console works in conjunction with the other 8472 weapon set to get you the 2 piece set bonus:
    +7.5% Bonus Phaser and Disruptor Energy Damage
    2% increased chance for Bio-Molecular weapons to apply their Incubation debuffs
    ---- Key note is that extra Phaser/Disruptor dmg is BONUS, not a strength boost. Also, the extra +2% likeliness to land the Incubation debuff is nice. People around the game swear by their weapons having that 2.5% chance to do some beloved proc. Well, BM weapon incubation is pretty much double that and the damage done is better than a lot of other procs out there, and it's not dependent on Particle Generators like Plasma burns.

    Whether you used the console to form just a 2 piece or maybe the 3 piece bonus is up to you. But if you're using BM weapons and are pretty much expected to land your Proc almost twice that of other weapons, why not boost that Proc?

    ???

    So, to achieve that, I'll sacrifice one spire console. Okay. So now my Crit Hit goes down to something like 22-23% without TAC buffs.

    Stop the presses, my dps should be falling below the charts for having a Crit Hit under 30%.

    Truth of the matter is, if your CritH is already floating close to mid 20%, you're doing way more than enough for 99% of this game's content.
    XzRTofz.gif
  • sohtohsohtoh Member Posts: 620 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    The tradeoff is worthwhile.

    Firstly, the 8472 related console increases Phaser/Disruptor dmg. Not on the same scale as a dedicated Spire Console mind you, but it's not like it's a total loss.

    Secondly, the console increases the Radiation dmg by 20%. It was not surprising to see in my combat log the Radiation damage doing about 2.0-2.2k damage. With the different sources of a dedicated BM Incubation-based build (energy weapons, torps/Enhanced BM Torp), this effect is quite useful.

    Thirdly, the console works in conjunction with the other 8472 weapon set to get you the 2 piece set bonus:
    +7.5% Bonus Phaser and Disruptor Energy Damage
    2% increased chance for Bio-Molecular weapons to apply their Incubation debuffs
    ---- Key note is that extra Phaser/Disruptor dmg is BONUS, not a strength boost. Also, the extra +2% likeliness to land the Incubation debuff is nice. People around the game swear by their weapons having that 2.5% chance to do some beloved proc. Well, BM weapon incubation is pretty much double that and the damage done is better than a lot of other procs out there, and it's not dependent on Particle Generators like Plasma burns.

    Whether you used the console to form just a 2 piece or maybe the 3 piece bonus is up to you. But if you're using BM weapons and are pretty much expected to land your Proc almost twice that of other weapons, why not boost that Proc?

    ???

    So, to achieve that, I'll sacrifice one spire console. Okay. So now my Crit Hit goes down to something like 22-23% without TAC buffs.

    Stop the presses, my dps should be falling below the charts for having a Crit Hit under 30%.

    Truth of the matter is, if your CritH is already floating close to mid 20%, you're doing way more than enough for 99% of this game's content.

    Not sure if you are trying to troll or not.

    Some people wanted an alternative proc to Phasers as they were unhappy with the standard one. Some did not feel that having a random chance to activate, coupled with a random subsystem affected was competitive versus the other weapon systems out there.

    The first alternative Phaser type that came along was the Bio-Molecular, which is a hybrid weapon. It was well received, but was disruptor green in color, which bothered some. The next is the Phased Biomatter (Xindi weapons), which do Phaser damage and have a completely different proc and are blue in color.

    I posted about them in this thread and about their different proc, as others were discussing alternatives to the current Phaser proc.

    I had a nice discussion with Shadowwraith77 about the BM proc vs the Xindi proc. He presented his findings and I presented mine, and what I got from it was that they perform about the same damage wise in the end.

    I have used standard Phaser, Bio-Molecular Phasers, and the new Phaser Biomatter weapons. Each have their own merits and their own drawbacks. For example, the regular phaser proc can last a whopping 2 seconds (less in PvP as it is easily nullified). Same with the radiation proc. The Xindi proc, cannot be cleared; but it can be reduced as it does Phaser damage and is affected by Weapons power.

    For someone who argued about people worrying about their precious procs, you seem to put a lot of emphasis on it. If your weren't trying to troll, you could have just said that it was worth it to you, as you don't care about damage and be done with it.
    "I'm not big on telepaths myself. I'm not big on guns either. But if everyone else has them, I want to make sure I can get my hands on the biggest one I can."
  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    sohtoh wrote: »
    Not sure if you are trying to troll or not.

    Some people wanted an alternative proc to Phasers as they were unhappy with the standard one. Some did not feel that having a random chance to activate, coupled with a random subsystem affected was competitive versus the other weapon systems out there.

    The first alternative Phaser type that came along was the Bio-Molecular, which is a hybrid weapon. It was well received, but was disruptor green in color, which bothered some. The next is the Phased Biomatter (Xindi weapons), which do Phaser damage and have a completely different proc and are blue in color.

    I posted about them in this thread and about their different proc, as others were discussing alternatives to the current Phaser proc.

    I had a nice discussion with Shadowwraith77 about the BM proc vs the Xindi proc. He presented his findings and I presented mine, and what I got from it was that they perform about the same damage wise in the end.

    I have used standard Phaser, Bio-Molecular Phasers, and the new Phaser Biomatter weapons. Each have their own merits and their own drawbacks. For example, the regular phaser proc can last a whopping 2 seconds (less in PvP as it is easily nullified). Same with the radiation proc. The Xindi proc, cannot be cleared; but it can be reduced as it does Phaser damage and is affected by Weapons power.

    For someone who argued about people worrying about their precious procs, you seem to put a lot of emphasis on it. If your weren't trying to troll, you could have just said that it was worth it to you, as you don't care about damage and be done with it.

    The sad thing is, they keep adding a hybrid style proc to phasers, instead of actually doing something meaningful, with the actual phaser proc itself.

    That is the main thing, they need go after, as for the added hybrid weapons, yeah they fit in well enough.

    Like we discussed earlier, most of these comparisons are closely balanced, and each like you said has its merits proc wise, but procs are not always what makes a weapon, as the energy type does the most damage.
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  • kintishokintisho Member Posts: 1,040 Arc User
    edited July 2014

    Here are my suggestions, with the assumption that the proc would be entirely gutted:

    Give Phasers an innate [DMG] modifier, making them the highest base-damage weapons in the game.

    OR

    Give Phasers an innate [Acc] modifier, allowing players who stack phasers to get additional crit hit and crit chance through overflow.

    OR

    Give Phasers an innate [CritC] modifier, making them crit more often than other weapons.

    OR

    Give Phasers a "damage multiplier" ability, where every shot you land has a 2.5% chance to apply a damage multiplier, for 5%, with up to 5 stacks.

    OR

    Give Phasers an innate [ARC] modifier, making them the widest firing weapons in the game.

    Those are my thoughts for now. I do not seek to make phasers OP, but rather to bring them in line with the other energy types.


    OMG +1 (+9001!!!!) I would love the phasers I use on 1 of my 10 chars to be useful...
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Meh... I give up.
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  • vetteguy904vetteguy904 Member Posts: 3,943 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    if phasers are so horribel why are they so expensive on the exchange? why are they used as much as any other weapon in game? AP Dis and Pha are the top three. if ANY weapon needs lovin it's tetryon. y'all just want a push the button I win phaser.
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  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    y'all just want a push the button I win phaser.

    If I weren't so tired I'd take exception to that...

    All i wanted was to have a proc time extension added based on subspace decompiler as a counter to all the various sources of subsystem repair...

    Tet does need some love, it needs a visual for the proc first though, then we can think about how to buff it given it already benefits from flow caps and is countered by insulators... Maybe... If tet consoles buffed the proc the same as they did the weapon damage? It wouldn't be much buffing but it might be enough to make it noticeable without skill table buffing...
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  • heckgoblinheckgoblin Member Posts: 685
    edited July 2014
    if phasers are so horribel why are they so expensive on the exchange? why are they used as much as any other weapon in game? AP Dis and Pha are the top three. if ANY weapon needs lovin it's tetryon. y'all just want a push the button I win phaser.

    Fed canon nerds will pay extra for phasers.
    I AM WAR.
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  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    heckgoblin wrote: »
    Fed canon nerds will pay extra for phasers.

    This.

    There are times where I'll forego all the min/max and build a Fed ship as close as I can for "canon" purposes. I've done this at times also with other KDF & Rom ships.

    There is something fundamentally wrong with seeing Starfleet vessels shooting stuff other than the orange phasers as done since TNG onwards.

    Even when newer weapons being released in STO that were accessible to all, Phasers had always stayed very expensive on the exchange. I still remember how expensive Phaser Relays were before the Spire TAC Consoles came about.
    XzRTofz.gif
  • hpgibbshpgibbs Member Posts: 395 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    I prefer using phaser myself. I use either elite fleet, advanced Andorian fleet, recently phased bio matter and biomolecular as well. Phaser is my damage type choice. More on this later

    Let's start with the damage availability
    Antiproton (only if you can make the critical system work. If you can't, won't be top)
    True top: Plasma. Primarily because of the embassy console and the Romulan set.
    Second: Polaron. Jem'hadar set
    Third: disruptor
    Fourth: antiproton
    Fifth: phaser
    Sixth: tetryon

    Phaser teams for PvP are some of the strongest teams, so many shots going off, the phaser proc will take their toll, and are extremely effective. Though with the new research and development release, I'm pretty sure phaser will be made obsolete. I reference this primarily because of the engineering console that adds a +45 damage resistance rating, and with that, and other consoles of similar types, it'll make phaser useless for PvP.

    What I'm not particularly understanding from the developers is the malice towards phaser, and being, perhaps the most canon of all weapons, the weapon which most people tend to avoid, just doesn't make sense.

    Here's my suggestion: phasers are intended to be a tool, though more shown with hand weapons, on a larger scale, why are ship weapons all that different? Throughout the show, phasers are able to be re modulated and completely changed, yet still be considered a phaser, though on a different frequency. In these shows, the frequency was changed to provide different severities of damage, punching through Borg defenses, getting through enemy shields better and so on. Let's have phasers, while staying on a target longer, have increased shield penetration, up to a point. Let's say +5 shield pen per 5 seconds, stacks 7 times. It'll make phaser more deadly, more feared and let's be frank, effective.
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  • baudlbaudl Member Posts: 4,060 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    edalgo wrote: »
    I did over 37k DPS using Acc x2 CrtD exchange phasers on a Fleet Avenger. I don't even have the Undine phaser boosting set yet.

    Absolutely horrible? Not at all!!

    And yes I've reached over 30k on multiple occasions in ISE and KASE.

    i honestly don't know why you bring up DPS numbers on a topic that primarely concerns the proc of a weapon...the dmg numbers are equal on all weapon types, so they do about the same dmg overall anyway. Some obviously do more, due to buffs and proc mechanic. Due to the exponential crtH increase during the last few seasons, AP dmg grew unproportionaly.

    The phaser proc is the worst proc, and borderline useless in PVP since it is unpredictable and has a rather long cooldown (immunity)

    Should the phaser proc be an icrease for DPS like AP, disruptor or plasma? No, but atleast it should be useful for CC, which at this point it isn't, since the proc is too random and too easy to resist or counter...or simply procs at the wrong time and giving the target an immunity to the proc for too long. Polaron is more effective at what the phaser should be doing, just saying.
    Go pro or go home
  • kelshandokelshando Member Posts: 887 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    baudl wrote: »
    i honestly don't know why you bring up DPS numbers on a topic that primarely concerns the proc of a weapon...the dmg numbers are equal on all weapon types, so they do about the same dmg overall anyway. Some obviously do more, due to buffs and proc mechanic. Due to the exponential crtH increase during the last few seasons, AP dmg grew unproportionaly.

    The phaser proc is the worst proc, and borderline useless in PVP since it is unpredictable and has a rather long cooldown (immunity)

    Should the phaser proc be an icrease for DPS like AP, disruptor or plasma? No, but atleast it should be useful for CC, which at this point it isn't, since the proc is too random and too easy to resist or counter...or simply procs at the wrong time and giving the target an immunity to the proc for too long. Polaron is more effective at what the phaser should be doing, just saying.

    The proc is such a issue. its a RNG on top of a RNG.

    Giving maybe phasers a +acc maybe better. Showing they are more accurate going with the shows phasers easily taking out sub systems... what you do not see in the shows is random system going off line willy nilly.

    Or that you can select what sub system you want it to proc on. This would at least cut the rng on it.
  • draigondraigon Member Posts: 62 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I'd honestly just like some tweaking to make all of the damage types equivalant as they were meant to be. And for the inevadible "they all have pros and cons" argument, I used to run a tettryon ship because I liked the look of the beams and no they are not equal by a long shot.
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  • hip63hip63 Member Posts: 106 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I've got a fleet tempest running a full phaser build in the CCE event and I'm getting 1st place most of the time. Maybe phasers have a secret power against space snow flakes. ;)

    hip63 :P
  • cmdrscarletcmdrscarlet Member Posts: 5,137 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    But useless? No

    I get a shield proc on a Tac cube and it's hull drops from 80 to 50 in the short time it's shields are down. Much faster than had its shields been up and had to power through them. Not useless

    I get a weapons proc on a gate and now I or teammates survive instead of being 1 shotted. Not useless.

    And THIS is exactly why I can't use anything else but phasers. As unpredictable as it is, the proc is actually useful and you can "see" it's effects. Honestly, 2.55 fires often enough to make that difference.

    Phasers are not useless.
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  • baudlbaudl Member Posts: 4,060 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    edalgo wrote: »
    It's unpredictable and extremely difficult if not impossible to calculate.

    But useless? No

    I get a shield proc on a Tac cube and it's hull drops from 80 to 50 in the short time it's shields are down. Much faster than had its shields been up and had to power through them. Not useless

    I get a weapons proc on a gate and now I or teammates survive instead of being 1 shotted. Not useless.

    Both of these scenerios lead to higher DPS but still unappreciated. Why?

    Do these procs count in the parser logs?? No. Neither do many Science debuffs.

    So because it doesn't show in the logs. Because we can't see numerical value. Does that mean it's useless????

    ok, so what does the phaser proc do for you when the shield facing is down already on a tac cube?
    Here is what really happens...you engage the cube...it loses 1 shield facing in about 3 seconds after the fight started...you get a shield proc, wow, now all facings are gone for the next 5 seconds. Does it matter, no because you already breached the shields. Now the cube is immune to any other phaser proc until it explodes...

    and thx for completely ignoring the last 3rd of what i wrote...
    FYI, your science skill/debuffs are predictable atleast and much more powerfull at what they do
    ...fact is, that if phasers had no proc at all you wouldn't see or feel a difference in 99% of all the combat you do.
    And i'm not talking about measurable stuff anyway...a shield proc on an unshielded or already stripped target. A weapon proc on the probe that flew next to the cube, instead of the cube, an engine proc on a (near) immovable NPC ship and finaly a aux proc on NPCs that don't use aux based abilities...that is what the phaser proc does.

    useless? oh yes!


    in PVP, there are simply far better option available, since phasers are too unpredictable AND it is too easy to counter + the immunity period is too long. Sure, in a PUG you might find a few people that have their shields or engines offline for the full duration, but even average premades will counter phaser procs too fast to give any window of opportunity (and the window already is very small to begin with anyway)
    Go pro or go home
  • thedarkphenoixthedarkphenoix Member Posts: 75 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Phasers aren't useless IMO. every time the proc goes off you have a 75% chance of something useful happening in PvE, and all of the effects are useful in PvP.

    Engines go offline = No chance to evade. You do more damage with each shot while they're stationary, and your crit chance goes through the roof.

    Aux goes offline = less healing opportunities in PvP (most escorts/cruisers jockeys have some sort of combination of Hazard Emitters, Transfer Shield Strength or Science team) and/or cripples a science ships main source of DPS. This effect is probably the weakest in PvE however.

    Weapons go offline = weapons offline. No damage coming at you or your team team for the duration. It's a few extra seconds of free damage on the affected target, and a few extra seconds breathing room on your healing abilities.

    Shields go offline = Shields offline. Not much more that can be said... Their SHIELDS ARE OFFLINE!!! During the time that they are down, both you and your team mates (plus any NPCs, pets, slow moving torps etc, all of which can be out of the shield arc that you're currently firing on) have free hits on the effected targets hull.

    So yes, Phasers definitely aren't useless... Now if you want to argue that the phaser Proc is too unpredictable, then sure, I can somewhat agree there. The chance of getting the exact Proc effect that you want to happen when you want it is minuscule... So personally, I prefer to choose a weapon that has a set effect, even if that effect is far less devastating than the phaser Proc when the right effect happens at just the right time. However, I would also argue that all of the procs across all of the weapons (apart from the built in crit bonuses to AP) are too unpredictable to rely on in the first place. They are just nice little bonuses that happen once in a while and are there to give flavour to each of the weapons beyond raw dps figures (though the plasma proc certainly adds to those figures)
    Original wave Lifetimer and Closed Beta tester.
  • dave18193dave18193 Member Posts: 416 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Plus theyve gotten a bit better lately, thanks to the new counter command set: not only does it have a very nice phaser turret, but the 2pc gives +7.5 bonus phaser damage.


    I just wish the Bio-Molecular phasers were orange (or blue). Then there'd be no question of their awesomeness.
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  • ursusmorologusursusmorologus Member Posts: 5,328 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    edalgo wrote: »
    I've seen when it was Godmode in PvP and it was worse than a doffed VM3 attack. The lockout on a 2nd phaser proc is there for a reason.

    All of which confirms that the current proc cannot work as originally intended / designed / balanced and so the proc should be replaced. All we have now is a broken proc that is broken a second way to keep the first way from working.
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  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    All of which confirms that the current proc cannot work as originally intended / designed / balanced and so the proc should be replaced. All we have now is a broken proc that is broken a second way to keep the first way from working.

    Exactly, even in pvp, a phaser proc is nothing more than an annoyance at best.
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    Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!

  • needtobecomitedneedtobecomited Member Posts: 42 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    At the risk of sounding unpopular, I love my phasers. In PVE, is the proc useful against unshielded, non healing, non moving targets? No. But neither are tetryon shield drains or polaron power drains. But does that mean they do any less raw damage? NO! Let the PVE DPS heroes have their plasma / anti-proton / disruptor procs, in the end PvE is easy mode anyway and it makes not one shred of difference if we kill the target now or 3 seconds from now.

    In PvP however, I find that all 4 phaser procs can be useful even if it is just 1 second that a subsystem goes down. that one second difference can mean the difference of killing a target or not being killed by said target. Proc shields or engines and your target is vulnerable a full volley of weapon fire. Proc weapons for a brief reprieve of taking damage. Proc Aux and stop a cloaker from getting away.

    The truth of the matter is, if you are relying on a 2.5% chance to get your kills for you, you are doing it wrong. knocking out a targets engines or shields on an alpha strike are just icing on the cake.

    When the biomatter phasers came out, I switched out my andorian phasers for a full set of the blue goo, and do you know what I found? They didn't perform nearly as well. The Extra DPS is nice but not nearly as effective as the chance to cause some random havoc to the enemy. Do I know what my weapons are going to do to you? no, but I know you wont like it when it happens.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Crystalline Refraction - Phaser deals 398195 (682959) Phaser Damage to Evul Klingon.
  • mirrorterranmirrorterran Member Posts: 423 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I've used the same phaser set for over a year now, as an engineer, in a cruiser...and I am always literally shocked when I don't get first place in Starbase 24.

    Leave my phasers just the way they are I'm not going to complain any time soon.
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