Maybe I'm cynical, skeptical, or both, but I recall more than once people screaming about how no one's going to spend money on "x", and how the release of "x" is going to reduce ship sales and it never happened. And in at least one case (lock box ship's) it turned out to be one of the biggest money earners the game has ever seen.
So I just don't see this turning out any differently than it has in the past.
I also tend to agree with that asessment, if it weren't because this is actually entirely different.
The old T5 upgrade did not open new skills and abilities for your ships, merely hull and shield upgrade, and an extra console.
This one adds an entirely new way of playing the game.
Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
lenght of time before t6 is obsolete will be directly tied to how much money they make. the more the make the sooner it will come rather than later. but it will not be implemented untill the sales start declining. so expect it to be in the works as of next summer. but not planned for a roll out until fall 2016. or later if sales are bad and staff is reduced forcing them to take longer to complete the same so called content. in that case 2018 LOL if the game makes it that long.
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
lenght of time before t6 is obsolete will be directly tied to how much money they make. the more the make the sooner it will come rather than later. but it will not be implemented untill the sales start declining. so expect it to be in the works as of next summer. but not planned for a roll out until fall 2016. or later if sales are bad and staff is reduced forcing them to take longer to complete the same so called content. in that case 2018 LOL if the game makes it that long.
Thank you... Someone who understands...
Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
As many mentioned above, they will first start to be obsolete when the T6 powercreep strike again, and new OP stuff is added (like the scimitard, bugship when it was released...). Then, sooner or later, depending if X2 sell or not, they'll introduce T7, and will make everything before obsolete.
Since I'm sure it will sell, I give them 2-3years.
Many are complaining about the new T6 ships vs. T5U upgrades, but this is an MMO, and NO MMO before or after has catered to players gear not becoming obsolete. This is the natural progression, but one of the problems is this expansion is too TOP heavy. If you look at games like WOW, or Guild Wars, since we are talking F2P, when a new set of items comes out they are added to ALL lvls, yes the best gear is still at the highest lvl, but the lower lvls aren't ignore. With this in mind here is my suggestion.
I never had to pay RL money to upgrade my stuff on LOTRO, pretty sure the same can be said for WOW, and probably GW. That's a huge difference.
lenght of time before t6 is obsolete will be directly tied to how much money they make. the more the make the sooner it will come rather than later. but it will not be implemented untill the sales start declining. so expect it to be in the works as of next summer. but not planned for a roll out until fall 2016. or later if sales are bad and staff is reduced forcing them to take longer to complete the same so called content. in that case 2018 LOL if the game makes it that long.
Just as an FYI, the Level 60 increase was announced to us in November of 2012 as being sometime around Season 9. That was 6 months before LoR was even released.
While I have no doubt that profits play a major part in what gets released these things are planned much further out then most realize.
From the chatter I have seen Expansion 3 will come out early 2016 and will be another Micro-Faction - most likely Cardassian.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Just as an FYI, the Level 60 increase was announced to us in November of 2012 as being sometime around Season 9. That was 6 months before LoR was even released.
While I have no doubt that profits play a major part in what gets released these things are planned much further out then most realize.
From the chatter I have seen Expansion 3 will come out early 2016 and will be another Micro-Faction - most likely Cardassian.
Well as you are well aware my cosmic freind: Plans change... Often...
Say... "There are no plans for Star Trek online to go free to play at this time"... 2 Weeks Later:
BIG ANNOUNCEMENT,
STO Goes F2P
Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
I believe there are some dev quotes from a while ago about no new levels, but no dev ever warned us of the impending obsolescence of T5 -- why mess with ship sales? Which is pretty rotten, especially for people who bought T5 ships in the last few months.
Just as an FYI, the Level 60 increase was announced to us in November of 2012 as being sometime around Season 9. That was 6 months before LoR was even released.
While I have no doubt that profits play a major part in what gets released these things are planned much further out then most realize.
From the chatter I have seen Expansion 3 will come out early 2016 and will be another Micro-Faction - most likely Cardassian.
We also had a thread showing the level progression that was going to come with every level increase. The plan always was to increase the levels so it's not really that big of a shocker.
Yes, I'm that Askray@Batbayer in game. Yes, I still play. No, I don't care. Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker. Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
T5-U11 ships also have higher hull and shields. It seems to me that T5-U11 ships will have higher base stats but some T6 ships have more abilities like the extra boff ability, the Intel boff, that sensor thing, etc.
You have to choose if you want stats or abilities depending on your playstyle. Or just fly what you like more, it won't matter until you PvP.
Unless I've missed a clarification somewhere, it has not been confirmed that T5U11 has more hitpoints/shields than T6.
T5U11 will have the same +1 console and +10% hull/shield over T5U10 that exists for T5 vs. T5.5/Fleet.
A dev commented specifically on the issue of upgraded lockbox ships (i.e. not all T5U11) and even then qualified it with "generally" more hitpoints (and not referenced in the same +10% terms) than a base T6 (meaning once tier 6 fleet/6.5 shows up the 5Us will be outclassed in basically every way).
I think a statement was made somewhere that indicated that a fleet T5U and T6 hit points were comparable, but again, qualified to say "at 50" so they may still scale differently.
I can't help but think that forever T5U is going to loose them a lot of money as (I believe) lockboxes are one of their best sources of income.
See, I don't think it's that straight forward.
There's no legitimate way they can release future lock box and lobi ships as Tier #6 if the current ones remain only T5U, so either the current ones will eventually get the T6 status, or all lock box and lobi ships will forever be T5U.
I view T6 ships exactly like I view the Dyson ships; they're a new breed of ship, that'll come with a few enhancements (as the Dyson ships did). Anyone and Everyone will be able to play any and all content with a fully functional T5U ship, and those should include ones obtained in lock boxes, purchased with lobi, or earned from a special event (Breen/Risian etc).
T5U ships get an extra Console Slot. T6 ships get an extra Boff ability. There will be times when an 11th Console will be more useful then a 13th Boff ability. It is really going to depend on the player's needs. I cannot say an 11th Console versus a 13th Boff ability is always going to be balanced but it seems like a fair trade-off to me.
...they can hardly release the new lock box ships at an advanced tier, whilst they make a lot of money with each new lock box, they also make a lot of money when they have the lock box reruns, and if all the old ships are suddenly of lesser value, a fair number of people are going to halt their purchase of master keys.
Seems like you are already accustomed to mediocrity, so the expansion will be old hat for you in your weak ships.
My ships will serve my purposes. I don't PvP, and the ships I fly easily take me through all the current content (most of them aren't using the best current available gear either) so come the new content, I can simply upgrade my gear, and I'll happily sail along.
It's not so much about the new tier of ship for me, it's more about my desire to fly something iconic; and to me, that's the Galaxy and Nebula, so until those ships get upgraded to match (and they fix the skins up) I'm sticking with. There's so much incomplete with existing ships, I fail to see the logic in spending money on something new.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, heard that doom all before. Releasing more powerful ships didn't hurt their sales then, won't hurt their sales now. Players don't buy lock boxes, they drop for free. Players buy keys to open lock boxes.
No sane person would have expected level 50 to have been the final level.
The T6 ships... Now thats a whole different story, and the source of most of the outrage on the forums.
I am not sure why people keep thinking that it's the levelcap that people have a problem with, as it's pretty clear that it's the ships people are focusing on...
But I guess some people can turn subject into another subject when it suits them.
I bought one (my first, a Falchion for my ROM engine..returning player) a couple or 3 *weeks* ago. Imagine how that felt LOL. I don't even have it properly equipped yet, and its already on the clearancerack.
The problem is, there is a big difference between being obsolete, and being not at the top. Tier 5 will remain useful, but not top tier any more.
You want obsolete, try flying your Tier 1 ships round the Delta Quadrant and see how long you last.
Agree. I have flown the NX in STFs. Granted there was 5 of us and we did it for kicks but the point is you do not need the shiny new 0.001% better toy to have fun.
In anything but PvP even a base T5 can be "competitive" if you know what you are doing.
Since Cryptic pulled the rug out from under us with this expansion, I have been wondering about their plans, if any, to make Tier 6 ships obsolete in 2015 or 2016. How long will these new $25 or more ships be flyable until they decide to soak us for Tier 7? As customers I think we have a right to know how long our investments are expected to last in game.
When I walk into a car dealership, I do NOT ask, "so, how long until the features in this 2015 model will be obsolete?" Or "If I buy this 2015 model, you need to guarantee next year's model won't devalue what I just bought. Or the year after, etc."
And keep in mind, a car costs a heck of a lot more than any STO T6 ship.
I will empathize: I don't want to be continually soaked (or pressed) for $$. I'm a STO Lifetime subscriber; I've paid for Zen; I've bought the STO expansions.
What it comes down to:
This is a business. Cryptic/PWE employees and contractors need to pay rent/mortgage and eat. Simple economics, except for those thinking they're entitled. And as time progresses, STO will undergo revamps and additions/removals to generate more $$.
What the argument should be:
* I'm playing with assets that I don't want to be obsolete.
* Cryptic/PWE doesn't publish a product roadmap; I have concerns about my STO investments.
* I don't feel T5-U addresses my concerns. I want a full T6 ship experience with my favorite ship design(s). And if T7 is introduced, I want my favorite ship(s) to have that experience, too. (Introduce a holo emitter that allows a favorite ship skin over the latest/greatest, as one possibility.)
I'm not picking on you, atomictiki. Please understand what's being said here.
In a real world context, you wouldn't have this argument at the Apple Store about the newest products. You wouldn't get answers like this at a car dealership, etc.
And Cryptic/PWE certainly isn't going to answer this, imho.
T5U ships get an extra Console Slot. T6 ships get an extra Boff ability. There will be times when an 11th Console will be more useful then a 13th Boff ability. It is really going to depend on the player's needs. I cannot say an 11th Console versus a 13th Boff ability is always going to be balanced but it seems like a fair trade-off to me.
Here's a question I haven't seen addressed:
How is the T5U "extra console" being handled? A "universal" console hole? Do engi ships get *another* engineering console..TAC ships *another* TAC console? I suppose that *technically* it doesn't seem to matter, as you could just rotate a universal console out of the one you want freed up, and into the new one...but then I thought of TAC consoles and realized it just might matter. An extra TAC console just might be superior to a new gimmicky boff.
How is the T5U "extra console" being handled? A "universal" console hole? Do engi ships get *another* engineering console..TAC ships *another* TAC console? I suppose that *technically* it doesn't seem to matter, as you could just rotate a universal console out of the one you want freed up, and into the new one...but then I thought of TAC consoles and realized it just might matter. An extra TAC console just might be superior to a new gimmicky boff.
We do not know, yet. As we still have 6 weeks before Launch I can only assume that information will be coming in a blog somewhere.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
till the next level cap increase. this is sop for mmos. level is x and this is end game... next expansion and now level cap is y and your level x uber loot is not so uber anymore. get over it or play a standalone game.
How is the T5U "extra console" being handled? A "universal" console hole? Do engi ships get *another* engineering console..TAC ships *another* TAC console? I suppose that *technically* it doesn't seem to matter, as you could just rotate a universal console out of the one you want freed up, and into the new one...but then I thought of TAC consoles and realized it just might matter. An extra TAC console just might be superior to a new gimmicky boff.
No idea, it will probably vary from ship to ship. Some people have suggested that the fewest console class will get the extra, some say the largest.
When I walk into a car dealership, I do NOT ask, "so, how long until the features in this 2015 model will be obsolete?" Or "If I buy this 2015 model, you need to guarantee next year's model won't devalue what I just bought. Or the year after, etc."
And keep in mind, a car costs a heck of a lot more than any STO T6 ship.
Ok can we stop this redicilous comparison... it never has, and never will be the same thing... not even close.
To upgrade a car-model to the newest version, you have to backtrack everyone who purchased it, get it to the factory, and replace physical parts. Takes tons of materials and manpower.
In a game / application, especially a Copy-paste game like STO, you can do it by changing the values of a single file. Takes a single man:
Do you REALLY think theres that much difference between the T1 miranda and the T5.5 Defiant in the code? Let me reveal something:
There is probably LESS than 100 lines of code in difference, and most of them are variables farmed from Objects.
Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
Since Cryptic pulled the rug out from under us with this expansion, I have been wondering about their plans, if any, to make Tier 6 ships obsolete in 2015 or 2016. How long will these new $25 or more ships be flyable until they decide to soak us for Tier 7? As customers I think we have a right to know how long our investments are expected to last in game.
If they do Tier 7, I imagine we will be flying Super Star Destroyers (Executor) or Atlantean Aurora Class Battleships, we'll have the rank of Supreme Allied Commander of the Universe, and instead of actually playing missions, the game will devolve into us sitting behind a desk on the bridge of our Super Star Destroyer, hailing NPCs and sending them to do missions.
So in other words...
I think (stressing the word THINK here) you likely don't need to worry about Tier 7 for a long time.
Now, Tier 6.999999999 repeating? That might be a different story!
"You shoot him, I shoot you, I leave both your bodies here and go out for a late night snack.
I'm thinking maybe pancakes." ~ John Casey
I work in engineering, where accuracy goes to a minimum of 3 decimal places, but often times 4.
6.999 =/= 7.000. It means you didnt offset properly, or something isn't right, and you better check your design or your math.
Oh boy here we go.
Rounding errors only happen as a result of truncating a decimal to a finite number of digits, where the ...,repeating, etc notation implies and infinite amount of digits. For .9 repeating and 1 to be distinct numbers within the set of all real numbers there must be an expressible number between them. There isn't, so they must be the same number. Furthermore the associative property of addition and by extension anything reliant on it doesn't work if they're different. You're probably familiar with the fraction proof so let me offer an alternative.
Let .9999... be expressed as a series in the form of .9 + .09 + .009 + .0009...
This is equivalent to the sum of all terms (.9 * .1^n) where n=0->∞.
= Σ a * r^n where a=0.9 and r=0.1 and n=0->∞
= a / (1-r)
= .9 / 1-.1
= .9 / .9
= 1
I'll concede for practical applications such as engineering the lack of a distinction here doesn't meana whole lot. I work in software engineering myself and getting floating point values to equate intuitively is a pain there too. But my issue with the original post was on a purely mathematical level
Comments
This rather begs the question on how you expect Cryptic to fund development of the game... what would you have regarded as fair?
I also tend to agree with that asessment, if it weren't because this is actually entirely different.
The old T5 upgrade did not open new skills and abilities for your ships, merely hull and shield upgrade, and an extra console.
This one adds an entirely new way of playing the game.
Can I steal your signature? It's pretty amazing...
Thank you... Someone who understands...
Since I'm sure it will sell, I give them 2-3years.
I never had to pay RL money to upgrade my stuff on LOTRO, pretty sure the same can be said for WOW, and probably GW. That's a huge difference.
While I have no doubt that profits play a major part in what gets released these things are planned much further out then most realize.
From the chatter I have seen Expansion 3 will come out early 2016 and will be another Micro-Faction - most likely Cardassian.
Well as you are well aware my cosmic freind: Plans change... Often...
Say... "There are no plans for Star Trek online to go free to play at this time"... 2 Weeks Later:
BIG ANNOUNCEMENT,
STO Goes F2P
We also had a thread showing the level progression that was going to come with every level increase. The plan always was to increase the levels so it's not really that big of a shocker.
Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker.
Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
Unless I've missed a clarification somewhere, it has not been confirmed that T5U11 has more hitpoints/shields than T6.
T5U11 will have the same +1 console and +10% hull/shield over T5U10 that exists for T5 vs. T5.5/Fleet.
A dev commented specifically on the issue of upgraded lockbox ships (i.e. not all T5U11) and even then qualified it with "generally" more hitpoints (and not referenced in the same +10% terms) than a base T6 (meaning once tier 6 fleet/6.5 shows up the 5Us will be outclassed in basically every way).
I think a statement was made somewhere that indicated that a fleet T5U and T6 hit points were comparable, but again, qualified to say "at 50" so they may still scale differently.
There's no legitimate way they can release future lock box and lobi ships as Tier #6 if the current ones remain only T5U, so either the current ones will eventually get the T6 status, or all lock box and lobi ships will forever be T5U.
I view T6 ships exactly like I view the Dyson ships; they're a new breed of ship, that'll come with a few enhancements (as the Dyson ships did). Anyone and Everyone will be able to play any and all content with a fully functional T5U ship, and those should include ones obtained in lock boxes, purchased with lobi, or earned from a special event (Breen/Risian etc).
That is why... ...they can hardly release the new lock box ships at an advanced tier, whilst they make a lot of money with each new lock box, they also make a lot of money when they have the lock box reruns, and if all the old ships are suddenly of lesser value, a fair number of people are going to halt their purchase of master keys.
My ships will serve my purposes. I don't PvP, and the ships I fly easily take me through all the current content (most of them aren't using the best current available gear either) so come the new content, I can simply upgrade my gear, and I'll happily sail along.
It's not so much about the new tier of ship for me, it's more about my desire to fly something iconic; and to me, that's the Galaxy and Nebula, so until those ships get upgraded to match (and they fix the skins up) I'm sticking with. There's so much incomplete with existing ships, I fail to see the logic in spending money on something new.
I bought one (my first, a Falchion for my ROM engine..returning player) a couple or 3 *weeks* ago. Imagine how that felt LOL. I don't even have it properly equipped yet, and its already on the clearancerack.
You want obsolete, try flying your Tier 1 ships round the Delta Quadrant and see how long you last.
Agree. I have flown the NX in STFs. Granted there was 5 of us and we did it for kicks but the point is you do not need the shiny new 0.001% better toy to have fun.
In anything but PvP even a base T5 can be "competitive" if you know what you are doing.
And keep in mind, a car costs a heck of a lot more than any STO T6 ship.
I will empathize: I don't want to be continually soaked (or pressed) for $$. I'm a STO Lifetime subscriber; I've paid for Zen; I've bought the STO expansions.
What it comes down to:
This is a business. Cryptic/PWE employees and contractors need to pay rent/mortgage and eat. Simple economics, except for those thinking they're entitled. And as time progresses, STO will undergo revamps and additions/removals to generate more $$.
What the argument should be:
* I'm playing with assets that I don't want to be obsolete.
* Cryptic/PWE doesn't publish a product roadmap; I have concerns about my STO investments.
* I don't feel T5-U addresses my concerns. I want a full T6 ship experience with my favorite ship design(s). And if T7 is introduced, I want my favorite ship(s) to have that experience, too. (Introduce a holo emitter that allows a favorite ship skin over the latest/greatest, as one possibility.)
I'm not picking on you, atomictiki. Please understand what's being said here.
In a real world context, you wouldn't have this argument at the Apple Store about the newest products. You wouldn't get answers like this at a car dealership, etc.
And Cryptic/PWE certainly isn't going to answer this, imho.
Here's a question I haven't seen addressed:
How is the T5U "extra console" being handled? A "universal" console hole? Do engi ships get *another* engineering console..TAC ships *another* TAC console? I suppose that *technically* it doesn't seem to matter, as you could just rotate a universal console out of the one you want freed up, and into the new one...but then I thought of TAC consoles and realized it just might matter. An extra TAC console just might be superior to a new gimmicky boff.
No idea, it will probably vary from ship to ship. Some people have suggested that the fewest console class will get the extra, some say the largest.
Imagine a 6 tac console Bug.
Ok can we stop this redicilous comparison... it never has, and never will be the same thing... not even close.
To upgrade a car-model to the newest version, you have to backtrack everyone who purchased it, get it to the factory, and replace physical parts. Takes tons of materials and manpower.
In a game / application, especially a Copy-paste game like STO, you can do it by changing the values of a single file. Takes a single man:
Do you REALLY think theres that much difference between the T1 miranda and the T5.5 Defiant in the code? Let me reveal something:
There is probably LESS than 100 lines of code in difference, and most of them are variables farmed from Objects.
If they do Tier 7, I imagine we will be flying Super Star Destroyers (Executor) or Atlantean Aurora Class Battleships, we'll have the rank of Supreme Allied Commander of the Universe, and instead of actually playing missions, the game will devolve into us sitting behind a desk on the bridge of our Super Star Destroyer, hailing NPCs and sending them to do missions.
So in other words...
I think (stressing the word THINK here) you likely don't need to worry about Tier 7 for a long time.
Now, Tier 6.999999999 repeating? That might be a different story!
"You shoot him, I shoot you, I leave both your bodies here and go out for a late night snack.
I'm thinking maybe pancakes." ~ John Casey
Not to be a pedant, it's just something of a pet peeve of mine but 6.99999... repeating and 7 are the same number.
Only if you round off.
I work in engineering, where accuracy goes to a minimum of 3 decimal places, but often times 4.
6.999 =/= 7.000. It means you didnt offset properly, or something isn't right, and you better check your design or your math.
"You shoot him, I shoot you, I leave both your bodies here and go out for a late night snack.
I'm thinking maybe pancakes." ~ John Casey
Precisely.
Oh boy here we go.
Rounding errors only happen as a result of truncating a decimal to a finite number of digits, where the ...,repeating, etc notation implies and infinite amount of digits. For .9 repeating and 1 to be distinct numbers within the set of all real numbers there must be an expressible number between them. There isn't, so they must be the same number. Furthermore the associative property of addition and by extension anything reliant on it doesn't work if they're different. You're probably familiar with the fraction proof so let me offer an alternative.
Let .9999... be expressed as a series in the form of .9 + .09 + .009 + .0009...
This is equivalent to the sum of all terms (.9 * .1^n) where n=0->∞.
= Σ a * r^n where a=0.9 and r=0.1 and n=0->∞
= a / (1-r)
= .9 / 1-.1
= .9 / .9
= 1
I'll concede for practical applications such as engineering the lack of a distinction here doesn't meana whole lot. I work in software engineering myself and getting floating point values to equate intuitively is a pain there too. But my issue with the original post was on a purely mathematical level