Voyager was only half a Starfleet ship at that point, and was heavily modified (at least a quarter of it was Borg tech), not only by the normal crew, but Future Janeway using weapons the Borg did not have a defense against. It is a terrible example.
I'd also hazard a guess that Seven of Nine being added to the crew increased what the crew knew about Borg tech and tactics by a significant amount. Not to mention what she would know about the Delta quadrant in general.
It was sent into the badlands because one of its crew members were missing who were undercover as a Marquis. It is not a battle ship or a tactical ship in any form...Not everything needs a hanger ffs...
Defiant has a universal console, its a cloaking device.
Voyager was only half a Starfleet ship at that point, and was heavily modified (at least a quarter of it was Borg tech), not only by the normal crew, but Future Janeway using weapons the Borg did not have a defense against. It is a terrible example.
Specs (Memory Alpha):
Defiant: 1 quad cannon, 3 phaser arrays (2 side 1 aft), 6 torpedo launchers, power cells provide massive amount of energy necessary to fire quad cannon (used up very fast)
Galaxy: 10 phaser arrays (2 aft, rest almost full arc), 6 torpedo launchers
Intrepid: 18 phaser arrays (4 aft), 5 torpedo launchers, 2 cores to fuel massive amount of energy necessary to fire large number of phaser arrays (requires large amount of fuel)
The stats are that of the Intrepid class, not Voyager. There were no borg tech when the standard Intrepid class leaves the shipyard with 2 cores, 18 phaser arrays and sustained warp speed o 9.975. If anything, the constant shortage of fuel Janway's Voyager faced horribly nerfed it compared to the original Intrepid's intended performance.
The Defiant is a nice potent little ship as it is, I fly the fleet Defiant on my Tac main and it's speed makes it perfect for hit and run tactics.
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
I think they're fine as they are. Wacky Mirror Universe versions would be nice, but don't expect Cryptic to give the mirror treatment to any C-Store ships.
I have no issues with either ship, they are both fine as they are, if its not broken, dont fix it, neither are broken so therefor they dont need fixing.
Jorhana Kreig: KDF, Tal'is: Romulan Fed, Shona'a: Romulan KDF, Johan Paul Kreig: Fed
i like the idea of a designated mine layer. but defiant wouldnt fill that role as readily as a norway class would. intrepid is fine if you slot exploiters or w/e the spire consoles are. cryptic has released so many consoles now its getting hard to choose between them all and always up career specific consoles. FAW and Spread an intrepid would be fine. there is nothing wrong with the defiant though. if it gets anymore OP they probably going to nerf it. an yes intrepid needs a Shuttle bay, not a hanger. Shuttle pets only. (type shuttles and delta flyer) that launch x1 for increased sensor range or something. i do like the idea of a minelayer but they would have to come up with untargettable mines and have a console the norway could use to increase the amount of mines dropped by like 5.
and i feel i have to say this again. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH GALAXY CLASS SHIPS! sorry for all caps but they are fine.
Section 31Lane/Jeffjr/Varek @jeffjr USS Stadi/USS Grendel/USS AshigaruDreadnought Class Refit / Avenger Class Refit/Rhode Island Class Refit"With your shield or on it"/"Mors venit ad omnes."/"One with courage is a majority"https://www.youtube.com/@jeffjr84
After seeing how poorly the Galaxy "re-boot" was handeled, I would say no.
These ships do not need to be treated that way, infact, no ships deserve that...
Better leave things as is, rather than doing another potentially bad "re-boot" IMHO...
So you're saying the Galaxy Reboot which didn't touch the design or layout of the Galaxy R at all was a terrible thing to do, so you would rather they ...
Not touch the design or layout of the other hero ships?
So you're saying the Galaxy Reboot which didn't touch the design or layout of the Galaxy R at all was a terrible thing to do, so you would rather they ...
Not touch the design or layout of the other hero ships?
Not what I'm saying at all.
I'm not against a revamp of hero ships at all, as long as it's done the right way, wich the Galaxy "re-boot" was not.
Cryptic once again took the "we know best" approach, and ignored the players wishes. Add that to not explaining why the "re-boot" was done the way it was, and you get a poorly done revamp.
This is like Porsche saying it's a new car, when it looks exactly the same as the last model outside and inside...
The only thing I want for the Defiant is a cosmetic fix. Make it look like the Defiant with the appropriate hull patterns and running lights. The original excuse was the polygon count. Since then we've gotten ships like the Ambassador, Vesta, Kumari, Odyssey, Avenger, ad-nausea which all have detailed surface textures that make them look complete. The Defiant is the only hero ship in the game which looks bland and half finished when placed next to it's studio model. Granted, a 5th weapon slot would be great, but I'm not going to hold my breath. The Defiant does her job well as it exists now.
Again, I'm very confused. The Galaxy reboot created zero changes to the Galaxy R.
And you advocated leaving the Intrepid R and Defiant R alone.
It seems like you're advocating an action (or inaction) that puts those other two ships right where Cryptic put the Galaxy R.
Seems like there's a whole lot of angst for nothing (literally, no changes, nothing).
Errrrr....
No, I'm not saying to put the Intrepid R and the Defiant R where the Galaxy R are. Those are your words, not mine.
What I was trying to say is that no ships deserve to get a revamp that is bad.
As long as a revamp of ships are done the right way, I will not complain.
What we got with the Galaxy revamp was not what we asked for.
If Cryptic would want to revamp the Intrepid R and the Defiant R, they must work with the players, and give us what we ask for, not what they think is the best.
It's 14 if you exclude the 4 dorsal phaser banks, 18 if you include it. They don't cover the forward arc and therefore can't be fired at the same time as them, but aft weapons in other classes are included, so why not Intrepid?
Again, according to Memory Alpha:
Specs:
Defiant: 1 quad cannon, 3 phaser arrays (2 side 1 aft), 6 torpedo launchers, power cells provide massive amount of energy necessary to fire quad cannon (used up very fast)
Galaxy: 10 phaser arrays (2 aft, rest almost full arc), 6 torpedo launchers
Intrepid: 18 phaser arrays (4 aft), 5 torpedo launchers, 2 cores to fuel massive amount of energy necessary to fire large number of phaser arrays (requires large amount of fuel)
In practice:
Defiant performs well in Dominion War, but almost gets poped by regular borg cube that decimated a fleet, Enterprise E saves it just in time. In Dominion War, Sisco lines up expended power cells in mass hall after each battle, gives a speech "We will keep fighting until we can't fight anymore..." Funny, given how fast ammo runs out and they can't fight anymore.
Galaxy never runs short of fuel, with reserves tank occupying its own deck, nor ammo, with at least 300 torps stored. Sustained speed of warp 9, 9.3 "beyond red line," with max burst of 9.6.
Voyager faces elite tactical cube solo, inflects "heavy dmg" to it, as the Queen puts. Janeway always running out of fuel, always searching for fuel. The dual core Intrepid is capable of sustained speed of warp 9.975, max burst at effectively 10, yet Janeway rarely runs above warp 8.5 despite wanting to get home, due to lack of fuel.
The Defiant, commanded by Lieutenant Commander Worf, had been heavily damaged because it was assigned as the first line defense, part of a Federation fleet mobilized in the Typhon sector to intercept the Borg cube before it reached Earth (Memory Alpha), and was fighting the BORG the entire time it took for the Enterprise to get from the Romulan Neutral Zone to sector 001(three hours and twenty-five minutes to rendezvous with the fleet) while the rest of fleet was being decimated by the previously stated "regular borg cube". It was able to last 3+ hours against the cube where bigger ships failed, because as the first specifically, anti-BORG designed ship (warship) from Starfleet, it had the ablative armor, which is not present for that ship in STO.
The Defiant could use the ablative upgrade/ or console in STO, since it was outfitted with it before even the USS Voyager was (in canon).
IMO ONE of the following would go a long way to bringing the Defiant on par with some of the newer "front-line" ships to be released recently.
1. Make the cloaking device built-in (non-console requirement)
or
2. Make the cloak a battle cloak (sorry to mention)
or
3. Give it the ablative armor (built-in toggle ability or passive built-in ability)
or
4. Make it a 5/2 (5 fwd 2 aft weps) to bring it in line with other 'warships'
While the fleet Defiant can be a very formidable ship, when built specifically, its ceiling is well below some of the new factions' ships ceilings, that are designed to play a similar or the same role.
Having ablative armor is not the same as being able to 'deploy ablative armor' like Voyager did. Therefore, the claim that the Defiant could use the Intrepid's Ablative armor console is incorrect.
It's really more an expression of the ship using armor engineering consoles.
Having ablative armor is not the same as being able to 'deploy ablative armor' like Voyager did. Therefore, the claim that the Defiant could use the Intrepid's Ablative armor console is incorrect.
It's really more an expression of the ship using armor engineering consoles.
What sets armor generator apart from hull plating is it regenerates instantly while taking damage. It's as powerful as its power supply. It's not much when fitted to a shuttle. Defiant's small 2 1/2 deck tall core, with most of its power hard routed into engines, is unlikely to match Intrepid's dual cores.
The Defiant needs a serious revamp. All the later escorts completly outperform it: hirogen escort, xindi escort, tempest patrol escort...bug ship....undine nicor... this is sad
Itz nothing but a glass cannon compared to all the newer ships. Give it a bit higher shield modifier and integrate the cloak to the ship would be a start. Or give it more hull. 5 fore weapons? Seems to be the new standard wtf.
On top of it all I think the devs need to show the classic ships from the TV show more love and stop pushing out new ships that don't feel like Trek at all, outperform all older, just for the quick $.
The defiant is fine as is, IMHO. Granted I would much prefer its 3rd tac ensign be made universal so I can stop ignoring it and actually get some use out of it, but it works for me. She is all guns and speed, if she does somehow manage to get damaged badly enough, she RUNS AWAY, then comes back guns a blazin!!!!!!
Up front disclaimer: it has been a while since I have watched voyager, but how are some people getting the opinion that the intrepid was tactically focused? Sure it is nimble and light on its feet, but how does that make it tactically focused? Compare the intrepid with an actual tactical ship like the prometheus or the defiant. The intrepids simply do not pack the same level of firepower.
I think that asking for the intrepid to get a fourth tactical console is like asking the defiant to get 40,000 hull points. These ships were not meant for that, not even on screen.
Seriously, if you want a tactical science ship get the recon vesta (I did) or the fleet RSV.
During the episode where Kim and I believe B'leanna were kidnapped by the Computer Clown. Kims neighbor bangs on the wall while hes playing his instruement. When Kim asks why they didnt design the quarters better Tom Paris mentions that the Intrepid was designed for tactical purposes not quality of life.
The Defiant needs a serious revamp. All the later escorts completly outperform it: hirogen escort, xindi escort, tempest patrol escort...bug ship....undine nicor... this is sad
Itz nothing but a glass cannon compared to all the newer ships. Give it a bit higher shield modifier and integrate the cloak to the ship would be a start. Or give it more hull. 5 fore weapons? Seems to be the new standard wtf.
On top of it all I think the devs need to show the classic ships from the TV show more love and stop pushing out new ships that don't feel like Trek at all, outperform all older, just for the quick $.
Defiant
These are all lockbox ships. Those are supposed to be better, plain and simple, so people will invest money. I recently read that Geko (lead dev) even said in an itnerview that this is how it's supposed to be. Which is refreshingly honest.
In the regular line-up, the Defiant holds up because you can slot lots of tac consoles and tac boffs and this is where you shine in this game.
I would however like to see a revamp as well, concerning all three Hero ships. And no, the Galaxy did not get one.
All the current fleet retrofits should be removed from the game as it happened with the patrol escort. Then new Fleet-Refits should be introduced, based off the T4-Refits rather than the Retrofits. They should feature a at least semi-universal BOFF seating and console layout so you could recreate either the refit or the retrofit's setup (Meaning all three ships get a LTC and a ENS slot that can be switched to the retrofit setup (ENG for Gal, Tac for Defiant and Sci for Intrepid) OR the refit setup (Sci for Gal, Eng for Defiant and Intrepid)) as well as one Console slot that can either be fitted with a retrofit console (Eng, Tac and Sci respecitvely) or a refit console (Sci or Eng). This could be tied to a purchase of the T4 refit.
This way, the ships get more versatile and you don't lose the T4 purchase in endgame content.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I wouldnt be bothered by seeing Science ships like the Intrepid getting 4 Weapons Fore/3 Weapons Aft to improve their Damage Output.
The Defiant...My only problem with it is the lack of a Shield modifier on the Fleet version. Beyond that Im currently flying a Sao Paulo and regularly tear through content. Not sure how boosting it would be anything but overkill.
Make the 3rd ens on defiant uni, give it the +10% shield mod EVERY other fleet ship has. 2 small tweaks that barely up performance but make the ship much more par for the course vs all other escorts. Just adds a little versatility without doing much to change its combat power. Would increase some sales for the ship and give a lot of us the excuse to pull ours out of storage.
The intrepid doesnt need a 4th tac slot. But its boff config could use a lil work, the intrepid was a tough fast ship, but in no way tanky like a cruiser. Changing its ens sci to uni would help, as well as maybe increase its flight speed mod a tad, and bump base turnrate by 1 giving it that speedy maneuverable feeling that voyager gave off.
(Below is my own personal opinion not a suggested revise of the ships)
Intrepid with LT tac, ens uni (used as tac), with LT eng, LTC sci, CMD sci would just about perfectly fit the onscreen voyager.
Id say a defiant with with 4 eng, 1 sci, 5 tac consoles would represent the onscreen defiant much better. It didn't gain its toughness so much from things like Eng abilities but from its armors resistances. The Defiant did little in the way of exploring, and was purposely built to fight means it would be very light in sci department.
And as for a Revamp, yes I want one if its like the Galaxy-X Reboot. Ill pass if its like the supposed Reboot the Galaxy-R got.
The Fleet Defiant needs that extra tactical ensign turned into a second Lt. Commander Tactical. And the Commander seat turned Universal. And a 5th forward weapon slot. 5 fore, 3 aft. Maybe a shield and hull boost too. And a universal console that mimics the Vesta's tactical boom stick.
To get the kind of treatment it DESERVES.
Until then, this thread and this entire BEEF needs continued support. Possibly even across other threads.
I mean they rebooted the galaxy. Now it's time to reboot the ship that needs it most. The Fleet Defiant.
I agree, partly.
The defiant needs the uni. Lt. Cmdr. in order to reflect the "real" ship from trek.
I'm not so certain about the 5/2 weapon layout, i'd abstain from that. Other ppl have much better knowledge of STO mechanics to deliver a good judgement.
About the intrepid, i wouldn't change it's console layout TBH.
But i would turn it's Lt. Cmdr. station into universal, just to make the ship more like it's supposed to be. (again only trekkie speaking here)
@snoggymack22
Are you serious about the Galaxy -R?
What reboot are you talking about?
There wasn't any change at all. They just put it into the 3-Pack bundle, keeping it the same old stinker as is was before... :mad:
(it's already a insult to give the Intrepid 3 tac consoles, while the G-R only has 2...)
I would however like to see a revamp as well, concerning all three Hero ships. And no, the Galaxy did not get one.
All the current fleet retrofits should be removed from the game as it happened with the patrol escort. Then new Fleet-Refits should be introduced, based off the T4-Refits rather than the Retrofits. They should feature a at least semi-universal BOFF seating and console layout so you could recreate either the refit or the retrofit's setup (Meaning all three ships get a LTC and a ENS slot that can be switched to the retrofit setup (ENG for Gal, Tac for Defiant and Sci for Intrepid) OR the refit setup (Sci for Gal, Eng for Defiant and Intrepid)) as well as one Console slot that can either be fitted with a retrofit console (Eng, Tac and Sci respecitvely) or a refit console (Sci or Eng). This could be tied to a purchase of the T4 refit.
This way, the ships get more versatile and you don't lose the T4 purchase in endgame content.
I'm all for this.
*thumbs up*
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Comments
I'd also hazard a guess that Seven of Nine being added to the crew increased what the crew knew about Borg tech and tactics by a significant amount. Not to mention what she would know about the Delta quadrant in general.
Defiant has a universal console, its a cloaking device.
the defient station setup is exactly what the cannon ships should have, maybe have its change be 5/3 weapons instead?
intrepid is fine, due to that much sci not being an actual down side, but id rather it be more like the ship from the show.
COM sci
LTC tac
LT eng
LT uni
ENS uni
changes to the galaxy R have been disused to death else were so i wont bother mentioning anything for it.
The stats are that of the Intrepid class, not Voyager. There were no borg tech when the standard Intrepid class leaves the shipyard with 2 cores, 18 phaser arrays and sustained warp speed o 9.975. If anything, the constant shortage of fuel Janway's Voyager faced horribly nerfed it compared to the original Intrepid's intended performance.
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
These ships do not need to be treated that way, infact, no ships deserve that...
Better leave things as is, rather than doing another potentially bad "re-boot" IMHO...
I agree to this. And this applies with every new content cryptic launches, unfortunately.
and i feel i have to say this again. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH GALAXY CLASS SHIPS! sorry for all caps but they are fine.
So you're saying the Galaxy Reboot which didn't touch the design or layout of the Galaxy R at all was a terrible thing to do, so you would rather they ...
Not touch the design or layout of the other hero ships?
Not what I'm saying at all.
I'm not against a revamp of hero ships at all, as long as it's done the right way, wich the Galaxy "re-boot" was not.
Cryptic once again took the "we know best" approach, and ignored the players wishes. Add that to not explaining why the "re-boot" was done the way it was, and you get a poorly done revamp.
This is like Porsche saying it's a new car, when it looks exactly the same as the last model outside and inside...
Again, I'm very confused. The Galaxy reboot created zero changes to the Galaxy R.
And you advocated leaving the Intrepid R and Defiant R alone.
It seems like you're advocating an action (or inaction) that puts those other two ships right where Cryptic put the Galaxy R.
Seems like there's a whole lot of angst for nothing (literally, no changes, nothing).
Errrrr....
No, I'm not saying to put the Intrepid R and the Defiant R where the Galaxy R are. Those are your words, not mine.
What I was trying to say is that no ships deserve to get a revamp that is bad.
As long as a revamp of ships are done the right way, I will not complain.
What we got with the Galaxy revamp was not what we asked for.
If Cryptic would want to revamp the Intrepid R and the Defiant R, they must work with the players, and give us what we ask for, not what they think is the best.
Did that make it any clearer?
The Defiant, commanded by Lieutenant Commander Worf, had been heavily damaged because it was assigned as the first line defense, part of a Federation fleet mobilized in the Typhon sector to intercept the Borg cube before it reached Earth (Memory Alpha), and was fighting the BORG the entire time it took for the Enterprise to get from the Romulan Neutral Zone to sector 001(three hours and twenty-five minutes to rendezvous with the fleet) while the rest of fleet was being decimated by the previously stated "regular borg cube". It was able to last 3+ hours against the cube where bigger ships failed, because as the first specifically, anti-BORG designed ship (warship) from Starfleet, it had the ablative armor, which is not present for that ship in STO.
The Defiant could use the ablative upgrade/ or console in STO, since it was outfitted with it before even the USS Voyager was (in canon).
IMO ONE of the following would go a long way to bringing the Defiant on par with some of the newer "front-line" ships to be released recently.
1. Make the cloaking device built-in (non-console requirement)
or
2. Make the cloak a battle cloak (sorry to mention)
or
3. Give it the ablative armor (built-in toggle ability or passive built-in ability)
or
4. Make it a 5/2 (5 fwd 2 aft weps) to bring it in line with other 'warships'
While the fleet Defiant can be a very formidable ship, when built specifically, its ceiling is well below some of the new factions' ships ceilings, that are designed to play a similar or the same role.
It's really more an expression of the ship using armor engineering consoles.
What sets armor generator apart from hull plating is it regenerates instantly while taking damage. It's as powerful as its power supply. It's not much when fitted to a shuttle. Defiant's small 2 1/2 deck tall core, with most of its power hard routed into engines, is unlikely to match Intrepid's dual cores.
Itz nothing but a glass cannon compared to all the newer ships. Give it a bit higher shield modifier and integrate the cloak to the ship would be a start. Or give it more hull. 5 fore weapons? Seems to be the new standard wtf.
On top of it all I think the devs need to show the classic ships from the TV show more love and stop pushing out new ships that don't feel like Trek at all, outperform all older, just for the quick $.
During the episode where Kim and I believe B'leanna were kidnapped by the Computer Clown. Kims neighbor bangs on the wall while hes playing his instruement. When Kim asks why they didnt design the quarters better Tom Paris mentions that the Intrepid was designed for tactical purposes not quality of life.
These are all lockbox ships. Those are supposed to be better, plain and simple, so people will invest money. I recently read that Geko (lead dev) even said in an itnerview that this is how it's supposed to be. Which is refreshingly honest.
In the regular line-up, the Defiant holds up because you can slot lots of tac consoles and tac boffs and this is where you shine in this game.
I would however like to see a revamp as well, concerning all three Hero ships. And no, the Galaxy did not get one.
All the current fleet retrofits should be removed from the game as it happened with the patrol escort. Then new Fleet-Refits should be introduced, based off the T4-Refits rather than the Retrofits. They should feature a at least semi-universal BOFF seating and console layout so you could recreate either the refit or the retrofit's setup (Meaning all three ships get a LTC and a ENS slot that can be switched to the retrofit setup (ENG for Gal, Tac for Defiant and Sci for Intrepid) OR the refit setup (Sci for Gal, Eng for Defiant and Intrepid)) as well as one Console slot that can either be fitted with a retrofit console (Eng, Tac and Sci respecitvely) or a refit console (Sci or Eng). This could be tied to a purchase of the T4 refit.
This way, the ships get more versatile and you don't lose the T4 purchase in endgame content.
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The Defiant...My only problem with it is the lack of a Shield modifier on the Fleet version. Beyond that Im currently flying a Sao Paulo and regularly tear through content. Not sure how boosting it would be anything but overkill.
The intrepid doesnt need a 4th tac slot. But its boff config could use a lil work, the intrepid was a tough fast ship, but in no way tanky like a cruiser. Changing its ens sci to uni would help, as well as maybe increase its flight speed mod a tad, and bump base turnrate by 1 giving it that speedy maneuverable feeling that voyager gave off.
(Below is my own personal opinion not a suggested revise of the ships)
Intrepid with LT tac, ens uni (used as tac), with LT eng, LTC sci, CMD sci would just about perfectly fit the onscreen voyager.
Id say a defiant with with 4 eng, 1 sci, 5 tac consoles would represent the onscreen defiant much better. It didn't gain its toughness so much from things like Eng abilities but from its armors resistances. The Defiant did little in the way of exploring, and was purposely built to fight means it would be very light in sci department.
And as for a Revamp, yes I want one if its like the Galaxy-X Reboot. Ill pass if its like the supposed Reboot the Galaxy-R got.
The defiant needs the uni. Lt. Cmdr. in order to reflect the "real" ship from trek.
I'm not so certain about the 5/2 weapon layout, i'd abstain from that. Other ppl have much better knowledge of STO mechanics to deliver a good judgement.
About the intrepid, i wouldn't change it's console layout TBH.
But i would turn it's Lt. Cmdr. station into universal, just to make the ship more like it's supposed to be. (again only trekkie speaking here)
@snoggymack22
Are you serious about the Galaxy -R?
What reboot are you talking about?
There wasn't any change at all. They just put it into the 3-Pack bundle, keeping it the same old stinker as is was before... :mad:
(it's already a insult to give the Intrepid 3 tac consoles, while the G-R only has 2...)
I'm all for this.
*thumbs up*
Together with fleet Quin