You guys are all really drinking the cool aid. Last I checked engi and sci buffs effect everything they should no matter what ship your in as well. lol
All ships have weapons, so Tac would still be useful in all of them.
If a Tac captain wants to do big damage with magicks, let them invest in partgen skill points like the other two classes have to.
All ships have weapons, so Tac would still be useful in all of them.
If a Tac captain wants to do big damage with magicks, let them invest in partgen skill points like the other two classes have to.
Ideally, all 3 classes, especially science class, should be able to do decent damage with "magicks." This is not the case.
Right now, 1 of the 3 classes is able to do half decent damage with "magicks."
If you nerf even that 1, nobody will be able to do TRIBBLE with "magicks."
"Magicks" and "Magicks ships" will then cease to be, leaving only "Tac faw ftw."
Seriously, "Magicks" is already nerfed hard enough. It doesn't need the one last bit of viability squeezed out of it. A sensible course of action would be buff the two thirds, not nerfing the one third, leaving a total wreck. :rolleyes:
All ships have weapons, so Tac would still be useful in all of them.
If a Tac captain wants to do big damage with magicks, let them invest in partgen skill points like the other two classes have to.
They do.... Just clicking omega isn't a magic look at my killer TBR button. If your not invested in PrtG to boost the base dmg its lackluster as well.
I have seriously NOT run a tac in a science ship since Conversion of Energy Hit the game. Why would I gimp myself... Sci was always the best option to make science skills work... now even more so.
The ONLY thing a tac has that a sci doesn't better in terms of sustained DPS is Go Down Fighting....
No one can seriously argue that GDF is worth trading a Nuke and a Scan for... that is just nuts.
Conversion of Energy is > then Omega.
Yes Omega boosts dmg by 20% more and adds some Crt (Which makes no difference to exotic dmg anyway)... however COE is always on (sure you need to be under fire... well in PvP that will be always... and in PvE if you are having issues grabbing argo.... either remove your -threat consoles or add some +thtreat).
Sci is the best option for a science ships its just the way it is... if people don't believe that they have either not played a sci in a long time or they are doing it very wrong.
If I had to guess I would bet the OP of this thread died to a GDF boosted FBP... but if they are not wise enough to look for a buff... and attack after that buff drops well... what can you say.
Ideally, all 3 classes, especially science class, should be able to do decent damage with "magicks." This is not the case.
Right now, 1 of the 3 classes is able to do half decent damage with "magicks."
If you nerf even that 1, nobody will be able to do TRIBBLE with "magicks."
"Magicks" and "Magicks ships" will then cease to be, leaving only "Tac faw ftw."
Seriously, "Magicks" is already nerfed hard enough. It doesn't need the one last bit of viability squeezed out of it. :rolleyes:
Your doing it wrong plain and simple...
Nothing matches the sustained "Magik" power that can be applied by a science captain. Either you havn't played one in a long time or something about your build isn't right.
Nothing matches the sustained "Magik" power that can be applied by a science captain. Either you havn't played one in a long time or something about your build isn't right.
If that's the case, then the nerf proposed serves no purpose. Make up your mind.:P
If that's the case, then the nerf proposed serves no purpose. Make up your mind.:P
I did make up my mind read my posts... the idea of nerfing tacs IS STUPID. they are fine the way they are.
Science Captains and Tac Captains can BOTH boost Exotic dmg.
Science have COE trait... which will give them a +30% dmg boost All the time.
Tacs have Attack Pattern Alpha... which will boost exotic dmg by 50% but not all the time Alpha has a cool down... so they only boost dmg with alpha 1/3 of the time... the rest of the time there Exotic dmg isn't boosted at all.
So there it is that is the difference... the other differences are a wash.
Go Down fighting... yes can boost Exotic by up to 200% no doubt... however to use it you have to skim low hull... to keep that sort of boost for any amount of time you would have to stay alive... and Science ships have the lowest hull in the game making GDF surfing in a science ship super risky.
However on the flip side of that Science Captains... have both Sub Nuke... which is THE game changer in PvP... and in PvE perhaps not that useful but neither is half the things we have. They do however have sensor scan... which is useful in both PvP and PvE... a Sensor scan can be buffed into the -70% resist range... which is just as effective at killing a target as a GDF surfing tac sci ship. Its also far less risky.
Even if they do somehow affect PvE, I've noticed a vast amount of the time people blow up just how much it really does 'affect' them. I mean...an item or whatever gets nerfed, and people blow up about it...so you really mean to tell me that killing the same NPCs over and over is THAT huge an issue that you HAD to have the item in question to beat them?
Anyways, to say something on topic...honestly I really don't care. I mean yes tacs can buff sci powers (along with everything else), but the base problem isn't who should be buffing what, or any of it...
The problem really lies in the dev's philosophy about sci powers that deal damage. Back when they altered GW a bit (don't remember why atm), a few months ago I think, a dev (Hawk?) said that they didn't want a GW to destroy a group of probes all by itself, which is why you couldn't deal that much damage with it, or at least not do that very easily.
So unless they change that philosophy some time soon, we aren't going to see anything change. It isn't that tacs can buff sci power damage. It isn't that the 'evil PvPers evilly' got sci powers nerfed. It's the pure and simple fact that the devs don't want to do anything.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
So TAC Captains should remain more effective in offensive SCI than Science Captains because they're the majority?
well yes, TAC captain is designed to boost offensive powers of all ships you put him in...the SCI captain is not designed or meant to do that. Science captain in this game is a halfbreed anyway since it has offensive abilitys and defensive.
Also, taking APO out of the equation means nerfing SCI abilitiys in general...atleast my SCI and ENGI captains loves APO3 + GW1.
I'm not saying that SCI powers don't need a second or third look by the devs, but as simple as removing AP buffs looks, it diminishes a few builds, while elevating others...this is not a solution of a problem, it is only shifting it elsewhere.
If you wan't a great offensive SCI vessel, fly it with a TAC captain...that is the whole premisse of the CLASS + SHIP design anyway! If you expect your SCI in SCI vessel to be the god of GW and TBR, you didn't get the memmo that mixing ships and classes is the key. In other words, there is a concious design decission behind it, that makes a TAC deal more dmg with SCI BOFF abilitys, than a SCI captain.
On the other hand, SCI in SCI is prefect for drain and harrass builds.
An ENGI in a SCI vessel, can make it tough as nails, while keeping powerlevels in all subsystems high...imho, a perfect heal SCI vessel.
Each class adds something specific to a ship type, while sacrificing something else.
The real problem still is, that PVE is so damn easy that you neither need a healer, nor a harrasser. With enough dmg, the content becomes trivial and the combos that yield more firepower simply seem better than the others.
If endgame was more like the first 20 levels in STO, the spacecombat would be more attrition based, which would give healers and tanks an edge, but at this time, when the enemy mostly consists of 3 ships that fall appart after one salvo, the combo with the most firepower has the edge.
My suggestion to this problem: Cut the number of weapon slots on ships in half, add specially reserved torpedo and mine launcher slots instead.
Add console slots, but only for ship specific consoles.
make enemy frigates, cruisers, ...atleast 3 times more durable, but also reduce their spawns to only 1 ship instead of 3.
Even add some basic abilities to any NPC ship...like tac team, EPtS...making them more of a "challenge" while reducing the overall amount of enemy NPCs.
Tactical Buffs such as APA, APO, GDF, Tac Fleet all need to be reworked to have their buffs only affect Weapon damage, rather then all damage.
This is what should have happened wayback when they first nerfed Sci powers, since Tac Captains were popping all Tac Buffs and hitting insanely high spikes with Photonic Shockwave and whatnot.
Exotic damage should be the purview of the Science skill trait and Aux power, not using a Tac Buff.
Yes and no. I agree with the personal tac buffs APA and GDF to affect wep power only.
But not with the APO and Tac Fleet, those should be left as they are.
APO its a great help to sci toons to boosts GW. GW is allready one of the lowest dmg Commander/Lt. Com skills in the game anyway. And how else will I buff my Thalaron then?:eek::D Since skills and aux barely buff it at all :P
And Tac Fleet should be left as it is, since its a team buff. Is encouraging team play and sci and engies benefit from it aswell...
If a tac chooses to fly a ship heavy with Science seating or a full on science ship they should not be penalized.
This would be as silly as saying .... Anytime a Science captain is not flying a science ship Sub Nuke and Sensor scan should be greyed out.
Science does just as much DPS in a science ship with exotic as a tac does. Sure 30% boost the sci gets with there trait is a bit less then Alpha... however it is ALWAYS on... and the combo of Sub Nuke and Sensor scan means they can spike even harder then a sci can with Omega anyway.
Silly thread.
While I agree with your overall point of the silliness I have to correct a few things here...
First, the Exotic damage boost of a Sci is NOT always on. It is only on when you are being shot at which as a good Sci should be relatively minimal...
Also Sensor Scan is pretty darned nice especially being able to nerf enemy's damage dealing power with the same stroke but Tacts can really stack up a lot more than the Sci can and can spike harder. What Sci's can do that is really vile is they can cancel all your attempts to heal their onslaught. The problem being that in PvE this is usually next to useless...
While I agree with your overall point of the silliness I have to correct a few things here...
First, the Exotic damage boost of a Sci is NOT always on. It is only on when you are being shot at which as a good Sci should be relatively minimal...
Also Sensor Scan is pretty darned nice especially being able to nerf enemy's damage dealing power with the same stroke but Tacts can really stack up a lot more than the Sci can and can spike harder. What Sci's can do that is really vile is they can cancel all your attempts to heal their onslaught. The problem being that in PvE this is usually next to useless...
Anyway, yeah silly thread is silly.
In PvP the scis COE trait is 100% always on. The chances of being in a pvp match with no faw around is around zero.zerozerozero% (or being touched by another scis GWs or some cruisers plasma or fire from some fawing carrier pet ect)
In PvE it is as likely as you intend to make it... playing DMG sci in PvE PuGs even running -threat consoles I have argo almost all the time. If you want argo all you have to do is run +threat consoles. Or at the very least if your using embassy consoles run offsetting ones to net out. lol
Yes a Tac can "alpha" strike hitting there boosts before they attack or are attacked themselves. Sure no doubt... and I did say the base dmg boost is higher on alpha no denying that. However lets be realistic DMG sci isn't about insta killing people... a tac in a sci ship can Insta kill people much better in an escort/bop/warbird. No Tac in a Sci ship is mostly a gimmick lets be honest... they will either do dmg with FBP or TBR mainly... taking advantage of dmg return or direct to hull dmg. They are both easily countered to be honest, they only work on those that don't understand how to adapt and kill the build entirely.
As for the notion of Sensor scan an nuke being useless in PvE.... my sci toons right now out dps my standard tacs in STFs (I say standard cause yes yes we can all build 30k+ tac fawmitrads).
My Sci Sci romulan in a pallisade right now can pull 22k ISE
My Sci Torp Varo romulan can pull 28k ISE
Those are sci toons taking advantage of Sensor scan... and yes even Subnuke I have found a use for in infected.
I know its not a science ship... and I only rely on a small amount of boost from Exotic... still... my sci varo gate buster build
1) Park 2k from gate
2) fire a few unbuffed torps at gate and grab argo
3) wait for faw buff (gates are predictable) Sub nuke
4) Drop DPB3 Web mines
5) Reverse and launch Destabailized + Gravity well
6) Hit sensor scan
7) watch a gate go from 100% to 40% in around 6s... and dead in around 10 if the team is throwing fire at it... my scan and Destabalized buff make that gate melt.
I don't mean to go off topic... my only point is Sci is in the best place it has been since launch... and it has never really been weak (even in PvE). Yes we can all admit that for pve a tac is the easiest way to rack up big numbers. Sci just isn't nor should it be about that. Sci is the thinking class... seting up the massive spikes ect. Yes our COE imo is better then having an Alpha... because it really is on when ever I need it.... and the main advantage on the sci is having that nuke and scan to spike IF I am smart enough to set it up and hold the right buffs for the right times... or to be able to ramp up a teams dmg when the time is right.
IMO Sci is just not an easy mode toon so it catches a lot more player hate. I find the majority of people that complain about "weak" sci simply don't really understand how to work the class.
Comparing a Sci to a Tac... Sensor Scan, Sub Nuke, Photo Fleet, Damp field... Vs Omega, GDF, FOMM, Tac Init. Its clear to me that the Sci is a better rounded group of skills. We got 2 new traits that people that complain seem to always forget about. Being able to use Photo fleet every min and having +30% exotic dmg (I will stipulate an ALMOST, 100% of the time) has IMO made the class the best all round captain type. Sci doesn't need anything else or handicaps put on Tacs or Engi to be on par... imo they are already > as it is.
SCI abilities need a buff and tactical damage boosting abilities should boost only weapons, simple logic. Problem is make something simple and it seems that it can be the most complex thing in creation :rolleyes:
but what seems simple can really be tough from a programming purview. Especially when (as i suspect) that the way damage is assessed can't easily be seperated
SCI abilities need a buff and tactical damage boosting abilities should boost only weapons, simple logic. Problem is make something simple and it seems that it can be the most complex thing in creation :rolleyes:
If Tac buffs didn't affect science, an entire Class/Ship combo would be destroyed. Since Tac Captains represent the supermajority of captains in this game, this would relegate an entire class of ship to the same fate as the KDF.
Is this what you really want, to never see a new Sci ship again because they don't sell?
you are only seeing part of it. the discussion is to separate the attack patterns from exotic damage. apa ect would still boost torpedo and beam damage. and APO should NEVER have been tied to weapon damage, it should sheerly a get out of dodge maneuver.
APO a separate thing and needs to be dealt with separately--right now it modifies ship performance, damage, everything, and you cant pull on it without addressing it directly and fully.
Changing APA/FOMM/TF from "all damage" to just weapon damage is pretty much a no-brainer though.
If a tac chooses to fly a ship heavy with Science seating or a full on science ship they should not be penalized.
This would be as silly as saying .... Anytime a Science captain is not flying a science ship Sub Nuke and Sensor scan should be greyed out.
Science does just as much DPS in a science ship with exotic as a tac does. Sure 30% boost the sci gets with there trait is a bit less then Alpha... however it is ALWAYS on... and the combo of Sub Nuke and Sensor scan means they can spike even harder then a sci can with Omega anyway.
They do.... Just clicking omega isn't a magic look at my killer TBR button. If your not invested in PrtG to boost the base dmg its lackluster as well.
I have seriously NOT run a tac in a science ship since Conversion of Energy Hit the game. Why would I gimp myself... Sci was always the best option to make science skills work... now even more so.
The ONLY thing a tac has that a sci doesn't better in terms of sustained DPS is Go Down Fighting....
No one can seriously argue that GDF is worth trading a Nuke and a Scan for... that is just nuts.
Conversion of Energy is > then Omega.
Yes Omega boosts dmg by 20% more and adds some Crt (Which makes no difference to exotic dmg anyway)... however COE is always on (sure you need to be under fire... well in PvP that will be always... and in PvE if you are having issues grabbing argo.... either remove your -threat consoles or add some +thtreat).
Sci is the best option for a science ships its just the way it is... if people don't believe that they have either not played a sci in a long time or they are doing it very wrong.
If I had to guess I would bet the OP of this thread died to a GDF boosted FBP... but if they are not wise enough to look for a buff... and attack after that buff drops well... what can you say.
Attack Pattern Omega is a BOFF ability and therefore is irrelevant to this discussion. Sorry to go Borg on you there but... Seriously.
In PvE Subnuke is useless around 90% of the time. It is ONLY useful on bosses and even then nowhere NEAR as useful as it is against players because NPC's are stupid and do not really use abilities in an intelligent way that would make its use that effective.
Tactical Fleet, Fire on my Mark, Attack Pattern Alpha, Go Down Fighting all contribute nicely to racking up some serious spike damage and can EASILY overwhelm a Sci's puny Scan which will be on cooldown most of the time and is the ONLY option besides Photonic Fleet for Sci to get extra damage. Also Alpha and Tactical Fleet (with bonus trait) help you move your ship better which is great for keeping your nose on fast targets.
Tactical Readiness (I believe is what it is called now) is also great because it allows you to use the limited number of Tactical BOFF abilities (like Omega and Beta which is just as good as Scan) you have on a Science Ship.
Also Alpha can let you not only deal more damage with things like TBR but close on the enemy ship faster and keep the damage flowing.
So in all actuality a Tactical Captain can easily rock a Science vessel better than a Science Captain can. With the Dyson set you can even get a pseudo subnuke and amp up that evil direct to hull damage.
However, Science is better at helping their friends and causing chaos and debilitating than Tactical and because Science Ships are well designed for that purpose as well if your goal in a Science Ship is not to be lethal but instead to be support then using a Tactical Captain is not as good as a Science Captain.
So it does depend a bit on what you are aiming to accomplish. Just like how a Science Captain in a vicious Escort is one of the scariest things in the game for anyone who has half an idea of what is really going on.
Even still decoupling of Tactical from Science Abilities is STILL dumb and really does not make any sense. Tactical Captains are MEANT to help the ship they fly be more lethal. That is their whole purpose. That is the same thing as making engineering skills only effect Cruisers or something which would be equally as daft.
Yes a Tac can "alpha" strike hitting there boosts before they attack or are attacked themselves. Sure no doubt... and I did say the base dmg boost is higher on alpha no denying that. However lets be realistic DMG sci isn't about insta killing people... a tac in a sci ship can Insta kill people much better in an escort/bop/warbird. No Tac in a Sci ship is mostly a gimmick lets be honest... they will either do dmg with FBP or TBR mainly... taking advantage of dmg return or direct to hull dmg. They are both easily countered to be honest, they only work on those that don't understand how to adapt and kill the build entirely.
As for the notion of Sensor scan an nuke being useless in PvE.... my sci toons right now out dps my standard tacs in STFs (I say standard cause yes yes we can all build 30k+ tac fawmitrads).
My Sci Sci romulan in a pallisade right now can pull 22k ISE
My Sci Torp Varo romulan can pull 28k ISE
Those are sci toons taking advantage of Sensor scan... and yes even Subnuke I have found a use for in infected.
I don't mean to go off topic... my only point is Sci is in the best place it has been since launch... and it has never really been weak (even in PvE). Yes we can all admit that for pve a tac is the easiest way to rack up big numbers. Sci just isn't nor should it be about that. Sci is the thinking class... seting up the massive spikes ect. Yes our COE imo is better then having an Alpha... because it really is on when ever I need it.... and the main advantage on the sci is having that nuke and scan to spike IF I am smart enough to set it up and hold the right buffs for the right times... or to be able to ramp up a teams dmg when the time is right.
IMO Sci is just not an easy mode toon so it catches a lot more player hate. I find the majority of people that complain about "weak" sci simply don't really understand how to work the class.
Comparing a Sci to a Tac... Sensor Scan, Sub Nuke, Photo Fleet, Damp field... Vs Omega, GDF, FOMM, Tac Init. Its clear to me that the Sci is a better rounded group of skills. We got 2 new traits that people that complain seem to always forget about. Being able to use Photo fleet every min and having +30% exotic dmg (I will stipulate an ALMOST, 100% of the time) has IMO made the class the best all round captain type. Sci doesn't need anything else or handicaps put on Tacs or Engi to be on par... imo they are already > as it is.
I don't know about you... but my Sci's can instakill people and it gets even easier if they are in a wicked damage launching ship. Subnuke makes that really easy when your enemy thinks they are safe and then goes POP.
What Tacts can do in a Science ship really depends on what Science ship we are talking about. The more Tactical options it has the better the Tactical Captain will make it over the Sci. However with the Sci you have Two damage dealing skills. Scan which is somewhat on par with Alpha and Photonic Fleet which is decent but not that great in PvP (spam fire will usually clear it out in seconds. Mostly helps defend you a bit). The Tactical has Alpha, FOMM (likewise not that great in PvP unless you are VERY careful about when you cast it), Tactical Fleet (which with Trait can rock), and Tactical Readiness which can be very helpful if your Sci Ship is tact Heavy, and GDF which CAN be good but is too tricky to rely on in all honesty (though it pairs evil with FBP).
All of the Tactical Abilities are useful all the time in PvE. For the Science Captain their Scan and Photonic Fleet are pretty universally useful in PvE but Subnuke very rarely and they will not have as much uptime of damage additive abilities as the Tact will.
Also one other note is that if you want some Science skills to do ANYTHING notable you will need to stack a LOT of buffs. I am talking BOFF abilities here... Charged Particle Burst, Tachyon Beam, Photonic Shockwave... Those three stand out as pretty cruddy without massive buffing and without their secondary effects (besides TB which has none) they have pretty well no use at all.
So yeah a few Science skills could still use a boost or change in what they do but NO that does not mean we need to nerf Tactical Captains and NO we do not need to buff Science Captains either. The Captains are just fine and like you said have been fine pretty much all along. It has only ever been the BOFF abilities in Science that have ever had issues.
Sometimes, I wonder what it would be like if the Space Captain Abilities mirrored the Ground Captain Abilities (or were replaced by a Space version of the Ground ability).
Attack Pattern Alpha provided +BonusDamage, +CriticalSeverity, +CriticalHit, and +Perception.
Fire on My Mark only applied the -DamageResistance.
Tactical Initiative basically stayed the same.
Go Down Fighting was replaced with a tactical pet summon ala Security Escort.
Tactical Fleet provided +BonusDamage, +CriticalSeverity, and +CriticalHit to the team.
Rotate Shield Frequency provided +ShieldRegeneration, +ShieldDamageReduction, and had a chance to apply -DamageResistance and -ShieldDamageReduction to attackers.
EPS Power Transfer was replaced with a Barrier Field Generator-like ability ala Cover Shield.
Nadion Inversion was replaced with a support pet summon ala Support Drone Fabrication.
Miracle Worker was replaced with an overcharge type firing of weapons ala Orbital Strike.
Engineering Fleet provided +DamageResistance & +ShieldRegeneration to the team.
Sensor Scan provided -DamageResistance, -StealthValue, had a chance to apply additional -DamageResistance as well as -ShieldDamageReduction, and +Perception.
Subnucleonic Beam was replaced with a Placate and chance to apply -DamageResistance and -ShieldDamageReduction.
Scattering Field was changed to a Dampening Field providing -EnergyDamageStrength to foes within the area rather than providing +EnergyDamageResistance to allies within the area.
Photonic Fleet replaced with a Nanoprobe Virus that would increase the damage of the next attack, spread to enemies within a certain range, and have a change to apply -DamageResistance and -ShieldDamageReduction.
Science Fleet provided +HullHealth, +ShieldCapactiy, and +InertialDampeners.
Not well thought out in the least, not much thought given to it in the least, just something I've wondered from time to time...what if?
Well Antonio is still on the warpath against this what its been an issue for 2 years now Antonio get over it us sci know more about deflectors then you!
Look Science lost out on 2 weapons we also dont usualy get duel heavies.We used to do our fair share until that faithful FTP patch number 2 where they reduced damage by over 20%(this was just pass one of 2 of the same nerf).Then borticus changed the suction(its been brought back to usefulness recently).
So where your getting the argument Tact if they did not buff Exoctic damage would be useless is beyond me.You would still if specced the same as a science get more dps out of science ships as you would buff the Beams we are talking about taking a 40% or so damage buff from science skills granted by Tact Captain skills and GIVING IT BACK to the base skill itself.
So let me clear this up Antonio tacts would still be just as useful in science ships as ever but everyone else would get better usefulness out of them.
Even still decoupling of Tactical from Science Abilities is STILL dumb and really does not make any sense. Tactical Captains are MEANT to help the ship they fly be more lethal. That is their whole purpose.
...which they do by knowing how to get the most from the weapons via effective piloting and weapon management.
Science abilities are neither of those. Science abilities get their oomph by manipulating particles. There is nothing at all logical about tactical abilities buffing the power and intensity of particles.
That is the same thing as making engineering skills only effect Cruisers or something which would be equally as daft.
Bad analogy. Tac can still buff weapons on science ships, which is equal to what engi brings.
And they would still be able to get good damage from particles if they spec into the skills, just like the other two classes have to.
Tactical Buffs such as APA, APO, GDF, Tac Fleet all need to be reworked to have their buffs only affect Weapon damage, rather then all damage.
This is what should have happened wayback when they first nerfed Sci powers, since Tac Captains were popping all Tac Buffs and hitting insanely high spikes with Photonic Shockwave and whatnot.
Exotic damage should be the purview of the Science skill trait and Aux power, not using a Tac Buff.
^This^ I support this
Time to bring Science back from under the boot of Tactical.
Sometimes, I wonder what it would be like if the Space Captain Abilities mirrored the Ground Captain Abilities (or were replaced by a Space version of the Ground ability).
Not well thought out in the least, not much thought given to it in the least, just something I've wondered from time to time...what if?
Well, based on what you just said, you've gutted the Sci Captain and made him mostly just a nuisance, as all of his powers are now easily-removed debuffs, and made the Engi Captain an indestructible troll that the Sci Captain cannot shutdown and can potshot you with his lance the moment an opening arises. The Tac Captain loses a bit of his teeth without GDF, but otherwise remains more or less the same.
So, the Engi Captain goes from the current loser to roughly on par with the Tac Captain, only annoying rather than DPS-oriented, the Tac Captain doesn't change much, but kamikaze flying is no longer rewarded, and the Sci Captain gains a fair deal in PvE, but is gutted in PvP.
This, really, shows us what we knew all along, that class balance is far less wacky in PvE Ground than PvE Space.
Time to bring Science back from under the boot of Tactical.
Science isn't under the boof of Tactical because Tac Captains can do more damage with damaging sci powers than Sci Captains can. EVERYONE is under the boot of Tactical because Tac Captains Do Damage and we are playing DPS Online. Period.
Well Antonio is still on the warpath against this what its been an issue for 2 years now Antonio get over it us sci know more about deflectors then you!
Look Science lost out on 2 weapons we also dont usualy get duel heavies.We used to do our fair share until that faithful FTP patch number 2 where they reduced damage by over 20%(this was just pass one of 2 of the same nerf).Then borticus changed the suction(its been brought back to usefulness recently).
So where your getting the argument Tact if they did not buff Exoctic damage would be useless is beyond me.You would still if specced the same as a science get more dps out of science ships as you would buff the Beams we are talking about taking a 40% or so damage buff from science skills granted by Tact Captain skills and GIVING IT BACK to the base skill itself.
So let me clear this up Antonio tacts would still be just as useful in science ships as ever but everyone else would get better usefulness out of them.
and again im not doing it wrong ;-)
No a Tac Cap in a science ship with out alpha doing anything for science skills would be stupid. It would be the worst combo you could possibly run. At least engi skills would boost the value of a sci ship through increased dmg and the need to run fewer self heals.
Tac in a science ship ONLY works because tacs boost ALL dmg. Honestly posting a beam array hit for 8k is really NOT that great. I could post a tac in a battle cruiser with 12k array crits. Bottom line if you want to do heavy weapons dmg a science ship is a terrible option.
To be honest I don't run any tacs in science ships anymore RIGHT now... because yes science captains do more dmg in a science ship right now. Its just the way it is. There is no need to further restrict Tac captains to battle cruisers and escorts.
Of Course if we are going to say alpha should NOT boost Science skills... then it should Also not boost engi boff skills either... no more alpha boosting DEM or EWP dmg.
So lets take Alpha away from the cruiser kidz and see if we can kick up a QQ storm.
Debate the ideas, stop attacking the people. End of. The next warning you see will be in your inbox.
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look i was on tribble and raged about this up and down the road in the tribble forums when i discovered that set up right a tac with FBP can get a return of 2.14 or more ...think about that...i shoot you you return damage almost 2 and a half times back to you. i had all the things needed part gen consoles the capt trait i forget what its called 3 purple fbp doffs and APA and APO now i go to kerrat and wait ............and sure enough here come 3 bops to attack.........pop apa pop apo and of course the bops are unloading with all they have ....the result ?? insta popped all 3 why say somthing now?? when i said somthing eariler and was ignored by the devs or attacked by tacs and all i was saying is what the OP was saying tacs dont need a nerf it just should only effect weapons nothing more ...i mean if they wanna continue to ignore it ok fine lets all build fbp ships and just let the lol pve npcs kill them selves (donatra) by the way try it out in kerrat if you have the chance its funny to watch people rage like that
Comments
Illogical statement error . (think I read the post wrong looking at it again lol)
The pve vs pvp stuff is silly in general.. things change because its a mmo... and Cryptic doesn't listen to anyone on either side of the game divide.
Because those nerfs don't just affect PvP.
If a Tac captain wants to do big damage with magicks, let them invest in partgen skill points like the other two classes have to.
Ideally, all 3 classes, especially science class, should be able to do decent damage with "magicks." This is not the case.
Right now, 1 of the 3 classes is able to do half decent damage with "magicks."
If you nerf even that 1, nobody will be able to do TRIBBLE with "magicks."
"Magicks" and "Magicks ships" will then cease to be, leaving only "Tac faw ftw."
Seriously, "Magicks" is already nerfed hard enough. It doesn't need the one last bit of viability squeezed out of it. A sensible course of action would be buff the two thirds, not nerfing the one third, leaving a total wreck. :rolleyes:
They do.... Just clicking omega isn't a magic look at my killer TBR button. If your not invested in PrtG to boost the base dmg its lackluster as well.
I have seriously NOT run a tac in a science ship since Conversion of Energy Hit the game. Why would I gimp myself... Sci was always the best option to make science skills work... now even more so.
The ONLY thing a tac has that a sci doesn't better in terms of sustained DPS is Go Down Fighting....
No one can seriously argue that GDF is worth trading a Nuke and a Scan for... that is just nuts.
Conversion of Energy is > then Omega.
Yes Omega boosts dmg by 20% more and adds some Crt (Which makes no difference to exotic dmg anyway)... however COE is always on (sure you need to be under fire... well in PvP that will be always... and in PvE if you are having issues grabbing argo.... either remove your -threat consoles or add some +thtreat).
Sci is the best option for a science ships its just the way it is... if people don't believe that they have either not played a sci in a long time or they are doing it very wrong.
If I had to guess I would bet the OP of this thread died to a GDF boosted FBP... but if they are not wise enough to look for a buff... and attack after that buff drops well... what can you say.
Your doing it wrong plain and simple...
Nothing matches the sustained "Magik" power that can be applied by a science captain. Either you havn't played one in a long time or something about your build isn't right.
If that's the case, then the nerf proposed serves no purpose. Make up your mind.:P
I did make up my mind read my posts... the idea of nerfing tacs IS STUPID. they are fine the way they are.
Science Captains and Tac Captains can BOTH boost Exotic dmg.
Science have COE trait... which will give them a +30% dmg boost All the time.
Tacs have Attack Pattern Alpha... which will boost exotic dmg by 50% but not all the time Alpha has a cool down... so they only boost dmg with alpha 1/3 of the time... the rest of the time there Exotic dmg isn't boosted at all.
So there it is that is the difference... the other differences are a wash.
Go Down fighting... yes can boost Exotic by up to 200% no doubt... however to use it you have to skim low hull... to keep that sort of boost for any amount of time you would have to stay alive... and Science ships have the lowest hull in the game making GDF surfing in a science ship super risky.
However on the flip side of that Science Captains... have both Sub Nuke... which is THE game changer in PvP... and in PvE perhaps not that useful but neither is half the things we have. They do however have sensor scan... which is useful in both PvP and PvE... a Sensor scan can be buffed into the -70% resist range... which is just as effective at killing a target as a GDF surfing tac sci ship. Its also far less risky.
Even if they do somehow affect PvE, I've noticed a vast amount of the time people blow up just how much it really does 'affect' them. I mean...an item or whatever gets nerfed, and people blow up about it...so you really mean to tell me that killing the same NPCs over and over is THAT huge an issue that you HAD to have the item in question to beat them?
Anyways, to say something on topic...honestly I really don't care. I mean yes tacs can buff sci powers (along with everything else), but the base problem isn't who should be buffing what, or any of it...
The problem really lies in the dev's philosophy about sci powers that deal damage. Back when they altered GW a bit (don't remember why atm), a few months ago I think, a dev (Hawk?) said that they didn't want a GW to destroy a group of probes all by itself, which is why you couldn't deal that much damage with it, or at least not do that very easily.
So unless they change that philosophy some time soon, we aren't going to see anything change. It isn't that tacs can buff sci power damage. It isn't that the 'evil PvPers evilly' got sci powers nerfed. It's the pure and simple fact that the devs don't want to do anything.
well yes, TAC captain is designed to boost offensive powers of all ships you put him in...the SCI captain is not designed or meant to do that. Science captain in this game is a halfbreed anyway since it has offensive abilitys and defensive.
Also, taking APO out of the equation means nerfing SCI abilitiys in general...atleast my SCI and ENGI captains loves APO3 + GW1.
I'm not saying that SCI powers don't need a second or third look by the devs, but as simple as removing AP buffs looks, it diminishes a few builds, while elevating others...this is not a solution of a problem, it is only shifting it elsewhere.
If you wan't a great offensive SCI vessel, fly it with a TAC captain...that is the whole premisse of the CLASS + SHIP design anyway! If you expect your SCI in SCI vessel to be the god of GW and TBR, you didn't get the memmo that mixing ships and classes is the key. In other words, there is a concious design decission behind it, that makes a TAC deal more dmg with SCI BOFF abilitys, than a SCI captain.
On the other hand, SCI in SCI is prefect for drain and harrass builds.
An ENGI in a SCI vessel, can make it tough as nails, while keeping powerlevels in all subsystems high...imho, a perfect heal SCI vessel.
Each class adds something specific to a ship type, while sacrificing something else.
The real problem still is, that PVE is so damn easy that you neither need a healer, nor a harrasser. With enough dmg, the content becomes trivial and the combos that yield more firepower simply seem better than the others.
If endgame was more like the first 20 levels in STO, the spacecombat would be more attrition based, which would give healers and tanks an edge, but at this time, when the enemy mostly consists of 3 ships that fall appart after one salvo, the combo with the most firepower has the edge.
My suggestion to this problem: Cut the number of weapon slots on ships in half, add specially reserved torpedo and mine launcher slots instead.
Add console slots, but only for ship specific consoles.
make enemy frigates, cruisers, ...atleast 3 times more durable, but also reduce their spawns to only 1 ship instead of 3.
Even add some basic abilities to any NPC ship...like tac team, EPtS...making them more of a "challenge" while reducing the overall amount of enemy NPCs.
Yes and no. I agree with the personal tac buffs APA and GDF to affect wep power only.
But not with the APO and Tac Fleet, those should be left as they are.
APO its a great help to sci toons to boosts GW. GW is allready one of the lowest dmg Commander/Lt. Com skills in the game anyway. And how else will I buff my Thalaron then?:eek::D Since skills and aux barely buff it at all :P
And Tac Fleet should be left as it is, since its a team buff. Is encouraging team play and sci and engies benefit from it aswell...
While I agree with your overall point of the silliness I have to correct a few things here...
First, the Exotic damage boost of a Sci is NOT always on. It is only on when you are being shot at which as a good Sci should be relatively minimal...
Also Sensor Scan is pretty darned nice especially being able to nerf enemy's damage dealing power with the same stroke but Tacts can really stack up a lot more than the Sci can and can spike harder. What Sci's can do that is really vile is they can cancel all your attempts to heal their onslaught. The problem being that in PvE this is usually next to useless...
Anyway, yeah silly thread is silly.
In PvP the scis COE trait is 100% always on. The chances of being in a pvp match with no faw around is around zero.zerozerozero%
In PvE it is as likely as you intend to make it... playing DMG sci in PvE PuGs even running -threat consoles I have argo almost all the time. If you want argo all you have to do is run +threat consoles. Or at the very least if your using embassy consoles run offsetting ones to net out. lol
Yes a Tac can "alpha" strike hitting there boosts before they attack or are attacked themselves. Sure no doubt... and I did say the base dmg boost is higher on alpha no denying that. However lets be realistic DMG sci isn't about insta killing people... a tac in a sci ship can Insta kill people much better in an escort/bop/warbird. No Tac in a Sci ship is mostly a gimmick lets be honest... they will either do dmg with FBP or TBR mainly... taking advantage of dmg return or direct to hull dmg. They are both easily countered to be honest, they only work on those that don't understand how to adapt and kill the build entirely.
As for the notion of Sensor scan an nuke being useless in PvE.... my sci toons right now out dps my standard tacs in STFs (I say standard cause yes yes we can all build 30k+ tac fawmitrads).
My Sci Sci romulan in a pallisade right now can pull 22k ISE
My Sci Torp Varo romulan can pull 28k ISE
Those are sci toons taking advantage of Sensor scan... and yes even Subnuke I have found a use for in infected.
I know its not a science ship... and I only rely on a small amount of boost from Exotic... still... my sci varo gate buster build
1) Park 2k from gate
2) fire a few unbuffed torps at gate and grab argo
3) wait for faw buff (gates are predictable) Sub nuke
4) Drop DPB3 Web mines
5) Reverse and launch Destabailized + Gravity well
6) Hit sensor scan
7) watch a gate go from 100% to 40% in around 6s... and dead in around 10 if the team is throwing fire at it... my scan and Destabalized buff make that gate melt.
I don't mean to go off topic... my only point is Sci is in the best place it has been since launch... and it has never really been weak (even in PvE). Yes we can all admit that for pve a tac is the easiest way to rack up big numbers. Sci just isn't nor should it be about that. Sci is the thinking class... seting up the massive spikes ect. Yes our COE imo is better then having an Alpha... because it really is on when ever I need it.... and the main advantage on the sci is having that nuke and scan to spike IF I am smart enough to set it up and hold the right buffs for the right times... or to be able to ramp up a teams dmg when the time is right.
IMO Sci is just not an easy mode toon so it catches a lot more player hate. I find the majority of people that complain about "weak" sci simply don't really understand how to work the class.
Comparing a Sci to a Tac... Sensor Scan, Sub Nuke, Photo Fleet, Damp field... Vs Omega, GDF, FOMM, Tac Init. Its clear to me that the Sci is a better rounded group of skills. We got 2 new traits that people that complain seem to always forget about. Being able to use Photo fleet every min and having +30% exotic dmg (I will stipulate an ALMOST, 100% of the time) has IMO made the class the best all round captain type. Sci doesn't need anything else or handicaps put on Tacs or Engi to be on par... imo they are already > as it is.
but what seems simple can really be tough from a programming purview. Especially when (as i suspect) that the way damage is assessed can't easily be seperated
you are only seeing part of it. the discussion is to separate the attack patterns from exotic damage. apa ect would still boost torpedo and beam damage. and APO should NEVER have been tied to weapon damage, it should sheerly a get out of dodge maneuver.
Changing APA/FOMM/TF from "all damage" to just weapon damage is pretty much a no-brainer though.
no, they don't and that's the point
Attack Pattern Omega is a BOFF ability and therefore is irrelevant to this discussion. Sorry to go Borg on you there but... Seriously.
In PvE Subnuke is useless around 90% of the time. It is ONLY useful on bosses and even then nowhere NEAR as useful as it is against players because NPC's are stupid and do not really use abilities in an intelligent way that would make its use that effective.
Tactical Fleet, Fire on my Mark, Attack Pattern Alpha, Go Down Fighting all contribute nicely to racking up some serious spike damage and can EASILY overwhelm a Sci's puny Scan which will be on cooldown most of the time and is the ONLY option besides Photonic Fleet for Sci to get extra damage. Also Alpha and Tactical Fleet (with bonus trait) help you move your ship better which is great for keeping your nose on fast targets.
Tactical Readiness (I believe is what it is called now) is also great because it allows you to use the limited number of Tactical BOFF abilities (like Omega and Beta which is just as good as Scan) you have on a Science Ship.
Also Alpha can let you not only deal more damage with things like TBR but close on the enemy ship faster and keep the damage flowing.
So in all actuality a Tactical Captain can easily rock a Science vessel better than a Science Captain can. With the Dyson set you can even get a pseudo subnuke and amp up that evil direct to hull damage.
However, Science is better at helping their friends and causing chaos and debilitating than Tactical and because Science Ships are well designed for that purpose as well if your goal in a Science Ship is not to be lethal but instead to be support then using a Tactical Captain is not as good as a Science Captain.
So it does depend a bit on what you are aiming to accomplish. Just like how a Science Captain in a vicious Escort is one of the scariest things in the game for anyone who has half an idea of what is really going on.
Even still decoupling of Tactical from Science Abilities is STILL dumb and really does not make any sense. Tactical Captains are MEANT to help the ship they fly be more lethal. That is their whole purpose. That is the same thing as making engineering skills only effect Cruisers or something which would be equally as daft.
I don't know about you... but my Sci's can instakill people and it gets even easier if they are in a wicked damage launching ship. Subnuke makes that really easy when your enemy thinks they are safe and then goes POP.
What Tacts can do in a Science ship really depends on what Science ship we are talking about. The more Tactical options it has the better the Tactical Captain will make it over the Sci. However with the Sci you have Two damage dealing skills. Scan which is somewhat on par with Alpha and Photonic Fleet which is decent but not that great in PvP (spam fire will usually clear it out in seconds. Mostly helps defend you a bit). The Tactical has Alpha, FOMM (likewise not that great in PvP unless you are VERY careful about when you cast it), Tactical Fleet (which with Trait can rock), and Tactical Readiness which can be very helpful if your Sci Ship is tact Heavy, and GDF which CAN be good but is too tricky to rely on in all honesty (though it pairs evil with FBP).
All of the Tactical Abilities are useful all the time in PvE. For the Science Captain their Scan and Photonic Fleet are pretty universally useful in PvE but Subnuke very rarely and they will not have as much uptime of damage additive abilities as the Tact will.
Also one other note is that if you want some Science skills to do ANYTHING notable you will need to stack a LOT of buffs. I am talking BOFF abilities here... Charged Particle Burst, Tachyon Beam, Photonic Shockwave... Those three stand out as pretty cruddy without massive buffing and without their secondary effects (besides TB which has none) they have pretty well no use at all.
So yeah a few Science skills could still use a boost or change in what they do but NO that does not mean we need to nerf Tactical Captains and NO we do not need to buff Science Captains either. The Captains are just fine and like you said have been fine pretty much all along. It has only ever been the BOFF abilities in Science that have ever had issues.
Attack Pattern Alpha provided +BonusDamage, +CriticalSeverity, +CriticalHit, and +Perception.
Fire on My Mark only applied the -DamageResistance.
Tactical Initiative basically stayed the same.
Go Down Fighting was replaced with a tactical pet summon ala Security Escort.
Tactical Fleet provided +BonusDamage, +CriticalSeverity, and +CriticalHit to the team.
Rotate Shield Frequency provided +ShieldRegeneration, +ShieldDamageReduction, and had a chance to apply -DamageResistance and -ShieldDamageReduction to attackers.
EPS Power Transfer was replaced with a Barrier Field Generator-like ability ala Cover Shield.
Nadion Inversion was replaced with a support pet summon ala Support Drone Fabrication.
Miracle Worker was replaced with an overcharge type firing of weapons ala Orbital Strike.
Engineering Fleet provided +DamageResistance & +ShieldRegeneration to the team.
Sensor Scan provided -DamageResistance, -StealthValue, had a chance to apply additional -DamageResistance as well as -ShieldDamageReduction, and +Perception.
Subnucleonic Beam was replaced with a Placate and chance to apply -DamageResistance and -ShieldDamageReduction.
Scattering Field was changed to a Dampening Field providing -EnergyDamageStrength to foes within the area rather than providing +EnergyDamageResistance to allies within the area.
Photonic Fleet replaced with a Nanoprobe Virus that would increase the damage of the next attack, spread to enemies within a certain range, and have a change to apply -DamageResistance and -ShieldDamageReduction.
Science Fleet provided +HullHealth, +ShieldCapactiy, and +InertialDampeners.
Not well thought out in the least, not much thought given to it in the least, just something I've wondered from time to time...what if?
on a side note http://i.imgur.com/u8H06s1.png
now time for my argument/content of this post
Look Science lost out on 2 weapons we also dont usualy get duel heavies.We used to do our fair share until that faithful FTP patch number 2 where they reduced damage by over 20%(this was just pass one of 2 of the same nerf).Then borticus changed the suction(its been brought back to usefulness recently).
So where your getting the argument Tact if they did not buff Exoctic damage would be useless is beyond me.You would still if specced the same as a science get more dps out of science ships as you would buff the Beams we are talking about taking a 40% or so damage buff from science skills granted by Tact Captain skills and GIVING IT BACK to the base skill itself.
So let me clear this up Antonio tacts would still be just as useful in science ships as ever but everyone else would get better usefulness out of them.
and again im not doing it wrong ;-)
Science abilities are neither of those. Science abilities get their oomph by manipulating particles. There is nothing at all logical about tactical abilities buffing the power and intensity of particles.
Bad analogy. Tac can still buff weapons on science ships, which is equal to what engi brings.
And they would still be able to get good damage from particles if they spec into the skills, just like the other two classes have to.
^This^ I support this
Time to bring Science back from under the boot of Tactical.
Do it Cryptic.
So, the Engi Captain goes from the current loser to roughly on par with the Tac Captain, only annoying rather than DPS-oriented, the Tac Captain doesn't change much, but kamikaze flying is no longer rewarded, and the Sci Captain gains a fair deal in PvE, but is gutted in PvP.
This, really, shows us what we knew all along, that class balance is far less wacky in PvE Ground than PvE Space.
Science isn't under the boof of Tactical because Tac Captains can do more damage with damaging sci powers than Sci Captains can. EVERYONE is under the boot of Tactical because Tac Captains Do Damage and we are playing DPS Online. Period.
It's the good guy players vs. the bad guy npc's.
Please realize PvP is no longer relevant.
Something flew over someone's head real quickly.
No a Tac Cap in a science ship with out alpha doing anything for science skills would be stupid. It would be the worst combo you could possibly run. At least engi skills would boost the value of a sci ship through increased dmg and the need to run fewer self heals.
Tac in a science ship ONLY works because tacs boost ALL dmg. Honestly posting a beam array hit for 8k is really NOT that great. I could post a tac in a battle cruiser with 12k array crits. Bottom line if you want to do heavy weapons dmg a science ship is a terrible option.
To be honest I don't run any tacs in science ships anymore RIGHT now... because yes science captains do more dmg in a science ship right now. Its just the way it is. There is no need to further restrict Tac captains to battle cruisers and escorts.
Of Course if we are going to say alpha should NOT boost Science skills... then it should Also not boost engi boff skills either... no more alpha boosting DEM or EWP dmg.
So lets take Alpha away from the cruiser kidz and see if we can kick up a QQ storm.
Addressed to no one in particular.
Debate the ideas, stop attacking the people. End of. The next warning you see will be in your inbox.
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