in all three of what you mentioned there was next to no choice. janeway had choices but chose to ignore them.
Although it could be argued, that everyone of them made choices that had dire consequences, I'll counter your argument that Janeway had next to no choice either. The Kazon had backup on the way, and Voyager was already in bad shape in the one battle. Tuvok clearly said that it would take several hours. They weren't going to get to use the array to go home. Why is this being ignored?
While I wouldn't have matched her every decision, for the ones that folks allege incriminate her, I would have. I'm confident that she would have been and most likely was exonerated, should any allegations be brought by anyone reviewing Voyager's logs. An exception is her action in the final episode, which indeed violated many protocols. Then again, Kim did let her go, so there.
Look, what would you folks have done different? I mean, perhaps she could have just let the Kazon have the array, and Voyager could have just left. They weren't going home using the array because of the Kazon's belligerence. What would Kirk do? What would Picard do? How about Sisko? Archer? They would have done the same thing. Not a single one of them would have said, "Too bad for the Ocampa. See ya. Wouldn't want to be ya."
The allegations won't hold up. Janeway would have been, most likely was, and definitely should be exonerated.
When Vice Admiral Janeway appeared in Nemesis, the desk hid the parole anklet which would zap her into unconsciousness if she went a mile from Starfleet Command... She was sideways transferred and kept where they could keep an eye on her...
I suppose that one point of the argument regarding the Undine is that if they were left unchecked, they would have destroyed everything after they finished with the Borg.
However, one thing that Janeway should have tried to do was to form an alliance with the Undine using Kes' telepathic abilities to communicate. That would also give them a chance to communicate to the Undine that the only threat to their species was the Borg and not the rest of the galaxy.
Realistically, though, the Ocampa should be extinct.
Realistically, most species of the entire Star Trek franchise should be extinct and half the technology shouldn't exist.
Anyway, I'd argue that Tuvix would be considered extenuating circumstances and Janeway would be cleared on those grounds (though barred from promotion for 10-20 years with a reprimand on file). Tuvix was created through the deaths of Tuvok and Neelix. If Janeway had allowed the deaths of two members of her crew, I'd argue she'd be guilty of 2 acts of negligent homicide.
As for Scorpion, I've voiced my opinion on this so many times now, so I'll just make a single point here; Starfleet Officers are trained to seek diplomatic solutions to hostilities wherever they occur. She attempted to with 8472 and they responded with 'the weak shall perish', which can be considered a threat - especially in light of the actions against Ensign Kim. However, the Borg were willing to suspend hostilities against Voyager in order to secure victory against 8472, who had already attacked the Federation via U.S.S. Voyager. Furthermore, Janeway only utilised the WMDs against 8472 under duress from the Borg, who effectively hijacked Voyager and threatened to assimilate Janeway's crew.
Whether Janeway's actions were legal is open for debate, but they were not a hate crime.
Although it could be argued, that everyone of them made choices that had dire consequences, I'll counter your argument that Janeway had next to no choice either. The Kazon had backup on the way, and Voyager was already in bad shape in the one battle. Tuvok clearly said that it would take several hours. They weren't going to get to use the array to go home. Why is this being ignored?
While I wouldn't have matched her every decision, for the ones that folks allege incriminate her, I would have. I'm confident that she would have been and most likely was exonerated, should any allegations be brought by anyone reviewing Voyager's logs. An exception is her action in the final episode, which indeed violated many protocols. Then again, Kim did let her go, so there.
Look, what would you folks have done different? I mean, perhaps she could have just let the Kazon have the array, and Voyager could have just left. They weren't going home using the array because of the Kazon's belligerence. What would Kirk do? What would Picard do? How about Sisko? Archer? They would have done the same thing. Not a single one of them would have said, "Too bad for the Ocampa. See ya. Wouldn't want to be ya."
The allegations won't hold up. Janeway would have been, most likely was, and definitely should be exonerated.
I would've been more consistent in my actions.
If we're going to let Janeway off for saving the Ocampa from slightly-earlier-than-inevitable extinction and blowing up the Array, we MUST charge her for (a) letting a species self-destruct without so much as an anonymous note 3 episodes later, (b) using the equivalent of BIOWEAPONS against the Undine and allying with the Borg, who are omnicidal maniacs as well as declared enemies of the UFP, and (c) the complete hash that was Endgame.
The central flaw with Janeway as a character is that she is LUDICROUSLY inconsistent in her actions, and NOBODY ever seriously calls her out on that fact.
Face it, she's a Mary Sue out of universe and a dangerous psychopath in-universe.
The only reason she made Admiral was because she made Command look good, and all Command cares about is looking good.
Anyway, I'd argue that Tuvix would be considered extenuating circumstances and Janeway would be cleared on those grounds (though barred from promotion for 10-20 years with a reprimand on file). Tuvix was created through the deaths of Tuvok and Neelix. If Janeway had allowed the deaths of two members of her crew, I'd argue she'd be guilty of 2 acts of negligent homicide.
Given the circumstances...I agree. It's a sticky situation, but the fact that she gets off with NO CONSEQUENCES is particularly galling to me.
As for Scorpion, I've voiced my opinion on this so many times now, so I'll just make a single point here; Starfleet Officers are trained to seek diplomatic solutions to hostilities wherever they occur. She attempted to with 8472 and they responded with 'the weak shall perish', which can be considered a threat - especially in light of the actions against Ensign Kim. However, the Borg were willing to suspend hostilities against Voyager in order to secure victory against 8472, who had already attacked the Federation via U.S.S. Voyager. Furthermore, Janeway only utilised the WMDs against 8472 under duress from the Borg, who effectively hijacked Voyager and threatened to assimilate Janeway's crew.
Whether Janeway's actions were legal is open for debate, but they were not a hate crime.
--The Undine that attacked Harry Generic was a lone soldier trapped in enemy territory, that saw creatures that looked and moved in a manner similar to the enemy. She should have thought, and NOT used this terrified soldier's actions against its species.
--Kes is an EXTREMELY unreliable psychic, and is not a member of Janeway's crew. She is a passenger from an alien species that was not studied by the Federation to any reasonable extent. Her testimony should have been taken with a serious grain of salt.
--The Borg are declared enemies of the UFP that have repeatedly attacked the UFP and its allies, and have repeatedly expressed the desire to annihilate all other species via assimilation. They do not get to say "Oh, hey, we're getting our butts kicked, we're not sorry at all for trying to wipe you out but pls help us?". Janeway should NOT have allied with the Borg who would've adapted to the Undine eventually anyway (and don't give me that BS about only adapting to things they assimilate, that's lazy writing that contradicts established canon).
--Janeway used WMDs against a newly-discovered xenosentient species. Under duress or not, this is a war crime. She ordered the WMDs to be used. The magic nanite warheads were the equivalent of high-yield bioweapons (i.e. anthrax bombs). Using them in 8472 space (i.e. on CIVILIAN POPULATIONS) is the equivalent of a crime against humanity.
Short version: Janeway in Scorpion is a xenocidal psychopath who looks good because of lazy writing.
I suppose that one point of the argument regarding the Undine is that if they were left unchecked, they would have destroyed everything after they finished with the Borg.
Nothing is set in stone that the Undine would have destroyed everything after the Borg. Chakotay theorized it, sure. But Chakotay was still in the dark just as much as anyone else on Voyager. His theory was still just a theory. Starfleet has come across dozens (if not hundreds) of alien species who were dead set on conquering the galaxy, or at least destroying the Federation (or whatever ship happens to be there at the time).
How many different aliens have tried killing the crew of the Enterprise based on first impressions? How many times was it eventually resolved through non-violence?
I'll use the Gorn as an example. Kirk could have easily killed this strange creature he (or we) didn't understand, and was in the perfect position to do so. This creature who wanted him dead at any cost.
But he refused to kill him. He became the bigger person because of it.
That's Star Trek. Refusing to give into your first instincts to kill something strange and unusual, even if they want to kill you first.
Sometimes it can't be helped, and sometimes it's a useless gesture.
But to paraphrase Lily from First Contact in terms of Janeway's first contact with the Undine? "She didn't even try."
And considering the events of "In the Flesh", it's fairly obvious the Undine never left the possibility of a truce or a peace off the table.
Janeway just never wanted to deal with them diplomatically to begin with.
I'd argue that's not possible or in the very least, not practical. Different situations call for different perspectives and different strategies. Being "consistent" risks being inflexible and not adapting to the situation. If one makes the same choice every time, a situation will eventually arise in which that choice is the wrong choice or the poorest choice amongst other choices.
If we're going to let Janeway off for saving the Ocampa from slightly-earlier-than-inevitable extinction and blowing up the Array...
1. It prohibits Starfleet personnel from interfering with the internal development of alien civilizations, specifically stating, "No starship may interfere with the normal development of any alien life or society." (see also General Order No. 1, Memory Beta)
2. It's meant to prevent Starfleet from using technology to impose values or will over a lesser people.
3. It has 47 sub-orders, which aren't knowable to the general audience.
4. Once a violation has occurred, Starfleet personnel are allowed to directly intervene on the planet to attempt to minimize the harm as much as possible with an openness in proportion of how significant the exposure has been.
Now, it was the Nacene who interfered and pulled Voyager into the affairs of the Ocampa/Kazon conflict. In the TOS episode "Return of the Archons," Kirk stated that a computer intelligence violated its own form of a prime directive. Kirk then tricked the machine into self-destructing. Then Kirk commissioned counselors to assist the people.
Janeway's actions are similar to Kirk's, in that as Kirk could have let alone the situation, he intervened to return a society back to what was defined by the Prime Directive as a "normal development." The Ocampa's "normal development" were being disrupted by two more advanced civilizations than they, the Nacenes and the Kazon. By destroying the array, which fulfilled the request of the dying Nacene, Janeway was setting the Ocampa up to evolve without further interference from anyone.
I'll use the Gorn as an example. Kirk could have easily killed this strange creature he (or we) didn't understand, and was in the perfect position to do so. This creature who wanted him dead at any cost.
But he refused to kill him. He became the bigger person because of it.
That's Star Trek. Refusing to give into your first instincts to kill something strange and unusual, even if they want to kill you first.
Heh, that general premise is pretty much what the entirety of Encounter at Farpoint was all about.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Janeway just never wanted to deal with them diplomatically to begin with.
Janeway was persuaded by Kes that it was an invasion force, which was the truth. Kes told Janeway that 8472 came from a dimension where nothing else lived, an entire universe devoid of all life but one. Kes stated, "They intend on destroying everything." The Undine had attacked Kim and had shot at Voyager.
Now, Janeway wrestled all night over what to do. She visited Da Vinci to seek his counsel. Eventually, she came to the idea of using diplomacy with the devil that she knew to fight against the devil that she didn't. What was the deal? To give the Borg the ability to repel the invasion in exchange for passage.
These are the facts. Diplomacy was not a viable option. It was too risky. But the counter-argument is that she didn't consider riding up to them and engaging in some chit chat. But that does eventually happen. I'd even go so far as to argue that the diplomacy with Pseudo-Boothby ("In the Flesh") was a direct consequence of repelling the Undine invasion. When the Undine were ready to storm out of the talks, Janeway had Seven disarm the warheads.
The fact is, it was the Undine who refused diplomacy, whose arrogance was so high that they thought they'd run roughshod over everyone else, until they were stopped. Seven quoted, "Your galaxy will be purged. Sound familiar?" Then they had to turn to diplomacy. It was Janeway's labors to win some iota of trust with the Undine.
The comment I quoted above mischaracterizes Janeway's motivations. She would have chosen diplomacy in a heartbeat if she thought it was a viable option.
Janeway's most heinous crime was singlehandedly ruining a complete ST series.
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STO Forum member since before February 2010. STO Academy's excellent skill planner here: Link I actually avoid success entirely. It doesn't get me what I want, and the consequences for failure are slim. -- markhawman
And again with painting Janeway as the villian. Her only real crime besides trying to ensure the survival of her crew was being the victim of the episode Writers.
You gotta be more flexable when you are totally cut off. She may have bent the rules a lot, and maybe broken a couple, but you gotta weigh it against the survival of everyone aboard.
And again with painting Janeway as the villian. Her only real crime besides trying to ensure the survival of her crew was being the victim of the episode Writers.
You gotta be more flexable when you are totally cut off. She may have bent the rules a lot, and maybe broken a couple, but you gotta weigh it against the survival of everyone aboard.
I'd be a lot more willing to forgive her if she weren't (a) so inconsistent and/or (b) not portrayed as quite such a sanctimoniously holier-than-thou Perfect Captain with a Perfect Hero Ship.
And again with painting Janeway as the villian. Her only real crime besides trying to ensure the survival of her crew was being the victim of the episode Writers.
You gotta be more flexable when you are totally cut off. She may have bent the rules a lot, and maybe broken a couple, but you gotta weigh it against the survival of everyone aboard.
this i know one i think all these Janeway haters must really hate it went on for a successful 7 years
I'd be a lot more willing to forgive her if she weren't (a) so inconsistent and/or (b) not portrayed as quite such a sanctimoniously holier-than-thou Perfect Captain with a Perfect Hero Ship.
You mean like Picard was? And this is speaking as Picard fan No. 1, here. Picard could be extremely holier-than-thou perfect captain with perfect hero ship about 80% of the time.
Janeway's most heinous crime was singlehandedly ruining a complete ST series.
Umm, no. There were multitudes of problems with VOY, Janeway barely factored into them.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
You mean like Picard was? And this is speaking as Picard fan No. 1, here. Picard could be extremely holier-than-thou perfect captain with perfect hero ship about 80% of the time.
Yea but he was Picard. Most of the time he didn't willingly violate the Prime Directive (although there were times when it was called for to violate it). In addition Picard generally didn't commit murder and genocide.
You mean like Picard was? And this is speaking as Picard fan No. 1, here. Picard could be extremely holier-than-thou perfect captain with perfect hero ship about 80% of the time.
Yeah, did Picard ever launch the equivalent of bioweapons on a sentient species?
Did Picard let an entire species selfdestruct without so much as an anonymous warning note?
Did Picard stick rigidly to the PD in one episode...then throw it out the window in another?
That's the thing about Janeway. In "Caretaker", she tosses General Order One out the window. Three episodes later, she lets an entire species die because the Prime Directive says don't interfere.
Yea but he was Picard. Most of the time he didn't willingly violate the Prime Directive (although there were times when it was called for to violate it). In addition Picard generally didn't commit murder and genocide.
Neither did Janeway and, in the interests of fairness, Picard tried to commit genocide against the borg in 'I Borg'.
Yea but he was Picard. Most of the time he didn't willingly violate the Prime Directive (although there were times when it was called for to violate it). In addition Picard generally didn't commit murder and genocide.
Don't think Picard ever murdered anyone, unless Shinzon counts. He killed some guys, mostly Borg drones, and let Ru'afo blow up, but then again there wasn't much he could do to save Ru'afo and Borg drones are enemy combatants.
And while Picard may not have cared about the LETTER of the PD, he certainly stuck to its spirit. Look at that episode with the primitive Vulcan-like people; Picard has a small PD breach and turns it into a massive PD breach to save a crew member and to stop the culture from regressing to a primitive, religious state.
It's Picards fault Janeway had to make the Alliance against 8472, I Picard had have used Hugh as a weapon and killed all the Bork, everyone would be much happier and not assimilated to fight a war.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Neither did Janeway and, in the interests of fairness, Picard tried to commit genocide against the borg in 'I Borg'.
...Yeah, but he ended up refusing to send Hugh back with the pathogen thing.
Picard wrestled with moral dilemmas a lot. He made decisions that were pretty openly wrong (c.f. the Jono/Jeremiah Rossa incident), and he admitted it.
Janeway did evil things pretty much at random and acted like she was some kind of saint.
...Yeah, but he ended up refusing to send Hugh back with the pathogen thing.
Picard wrestled with moral dilemmas a lot. He made decisions that were pretty openly wrong (c.f. the Jono/Jeremiah Rossa incident), and he admitted it.
Not totally true. If Deanna and Beverly hadn't objected, Picard would have never spoken to Hugh, which is what triggered him to refuse to weaponise Hugh.
In the same way, Janeway only used the nanite weapons after the Borg essentially hijacked Voyager and took the crew hostage. As Captain, her crew was her first priority and the Undine already considered Voyager an enemy before Voyager even had a chance to attack them.
Actually, yes he does. In season 1, he violates the PD to save Wesley (Justice), only to stick rigidly to it in Symbiosis.
And Season 1 is the worst-written of all the TNG seasons. Plus, the Edo were a f*cked-up case not dissimilar from the Ocampa; and let's not forget that the Enterprise crew just beamed down like there was nothing wrong with taking a vacation on a presumably pre-warp planet.
I prefer to ignore certain Star Trek episodes for the sake of my own sanity. "Justice", "Spock's Brain", "Code of Honor", "Threshold".
My issue with Janeway boils down to crappy writing. She is portrayed in multiple episodes of every season proclaiming contradictory moral absolutisms from one episode to the next, and never gets called out on it or treated like anything but a brilliant saint.
Picard, despite being epic, makes mistakes, screws up, and makes bad judgement calls, and gets called out on them.
To use a somewhat obscure Brandon Sanderson reference (it's been a few weeks since I've read this particular passage, bear with me):
"My father is the greatest man I know, perhaps the greatest man in the world. Even he makes poor judgement calls, loses his temper, and has a troubled past. With Amaram, it's like everyone expects him to glow in the dark and p*ss nectar. To me, that stinks of someone trying to protect his reputation."
In a nutshell, occasional TRIBBLE-ups, admitted and pointed out, are OK. What isn't OK is acting like a complete psychopath and getting treated like a god among men.
And Season 1 is the worst-written of all the TNG seasons. Plus, the Edo were a f*cked-up case not dissimilar from the Ocampa; and let's not forget that the Enterprise crew just beamed down like there was nothing wrong with taking a vacation on a presumably pre-warp planet.
It happened and it's canon. This was just one example. Another would be the Mintakans, where he absolutely blasts the PD into smithereens.
I should note, I do support Picard ignoring the PD in both cases. I actually like Wesley.
It happened and it's canon. This was just one example. Another would be the Mintakans, where he absolutely blasts the PD into smithereens.
I should note, I do support Picard ignoring the PD in both cases. I actually like Wesley.
The first case (Justice) is a poorly-written episode that makes no sense in hindsight.
The second...
Picard did ABSOLUTELY what he should have done there. Blowing the PD to bits was really the only option to (a) save Troi and (b) stop the Mintakan civilization from regressing to a primitive religion with sentient sacrifice. Picard absolutely stuck to the spirit over the letter of the PD there.
Comments
Although it could be argued, that everyone of them made choices that had dire consequences, I'll counter your argument that Janeway had next to no choice either. The Kazon had backup on the way, and Voyager was already in bad shape in the one battle. Tuvok clearly said that it would take several hours. They weren't going to get to use the array to go home. Why is this being ignored?
While I wouldn't have matched her every decision, for the ones that folks allege incriminate her, I would have. I'm confident that she would have been and most likely was exonerated, should any allegations be brought by anyone reviewing Voyager's logs. An exception is her action in the final episode, which indeed violated many protocols. Then again, Kim did let her go, so there.
Look, what would you folks have done different? I mean, perhaps she could have just let the Kazon have the array, and Voyager could have just left. They weren't going home using the array because of the Kazon's belligerence. What would Kirk do? What would Picard do? How about Sisko? Archer? They would have done the same thing. Not a single one of them would have said, "Too bad for the Ocampa. See ya. Wouldn't want to be ya."
The allegations won't hold up. Janeway would have been, most likely was, and definitely should be exonerated.
However, one thing that Janeway should have tried to do was to form an alliance with the Undine using Kes' telepathic abilities to communicate. That would also give them a chance to communicate to the Undine that the only threat to their species was the Borg and not the rest of the galaxy.
Realistically, most species of the entire Star Trek franchise should be extinct and half the technology shouldn't exist.
Anyway, I'd argue that Tuvix would be considered extenuating circumstances and Janeway would be cleared on those grounds (though barred from promotion for 10-20 years with a reprimand on file). Tuvix was created through the deaths of Tuvok and Neelix. If Janeway had allowed the deaths of two members of her crew, I'd argue she'd be guilty of 2 acts of negligent homicide.
As for Scorpion, I've voiced my opinion on this so many times now, so I'll just make a single point here; Starfleet Officers are trained to seek diplomatic solutions to hostilities wherever they occur. She attempted to with 8472 and they responded with 'the weak shall perish', which can be considered a threat - especially in light of the actions against Ensign Kim. However, the Borg were willing to suspend hostilities against Voyager in order to secure victory against 8472, who had already attacked the Federation via U.S.S. Voyager. Furthermore, Janeway only utilised the WMDs against 8472 under duress from the Borg, who effectively hijacked Voyager and threatened to assimilate Janeway's crew.
Whether Janeway's actions were legal is open for debate, but they were not a hate crime.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
I would've been more consistent in my actions.
If we're going to let Janeway off for saving the Ocampa from slightly-earlier-than-inevitable extinction and blowing up the Array, we MUST charge her for (a) letting a species self-destruct without so much as an anonymous note 3 episodes later, (b) using the equivalent of BIOWEAPONS against the Undine and allying with the Borg, who are omnicidal maniacs as well as declared enemies of the UFP, and (c) the complete hash that was Endgame.
The central flaw with Janeway as a character is that she is LUDICROUSLY inconsistent in her actions, and NOBODY ever seriously calls her out on that fact.
Face it, she's a Mary Sue out of universe and a dangerous psychopath in-universe.
The only reason she made Admiral was because she made Command look good, and all Command cares about is looking good.
--The Undine that attacked Harry Generic was a lone soldier trapped in enemy territory, that saw creatures that looked and moved in a manner similar to the enemy. She should have thought, and NOT used this terrified soldier's actions against its species.
--Kes is an EXTREMELY unreliable psychic, and is not a member of Janeway's crew. She is a passenger from an alien species that was not studied by the Federation to any reasonable extent. Her testimony should have been taken with a serious grain of salt.
--The Borg are declared enemies of the UFP that have repeatedly attacked the UFP and its allies, and have repeatedly expressed the desire to annihilate all other species via assimilation. They do not get to say "Oh, hey, we're getting our butts kicked, we're not sorry at all for trying to wipe you out but pls help us?". Janeway should NOT have allied with the Borg who would've adapted to the Undine eventually anyway (and don't give me that BS about only adapting to things they assimilate, that's lazy writing that contradicts established canon).
--Janeway used WMDs against a newly-discovered xenosentient species. Under duress or not, this is a war crime. She ordered the WMDs to be used. The magic nanite warheads were the equivalent of high-yield bioweapons (i.e. anthrax bombs). Using them in 8472 space (i.e. on CIVILIAN POPULATIONS) is the equivalent of a crime against humanity.
Short version: Janeway in Scorpion is a xenocidal psychopath who looks good because of lazy writing.
I think Senator Vreenak put it best.
Nothing is set in stone that the Undine would have destroyed everything after the Borg. Chakotay theorized it, sure. But Chakotay was still in the dark just as much as anyone else on Voyager. His theory was still just a theory. Starfleet has come across dozens (if not hundreds) of alien species who were dead set on conquering the galaxy, or at least destroying the Federation (or whatever ship happens to be there at the time).
How many different aliens have tried killing the crew of the Enterprise based on first impressions? How many times was it eventually resolved through non-violence?
I'll use the Gorn as an example. Kirk could have easily killed this strange creature he (or we) didn't understand, and was in the perfect position to do so. This creature who wanted him dead at any cost.
But he refused to kill him. He became the bigger person because of it.
That's Star Trek. Refusing to give into your first instincts to kill something strange and unusual, even if they want to kill you first.
Sometimes it can't be helped, and sometimes it's a useless gesture.
But to paraphrase Lily from First Contact in terms of Janeway's first contact with the Undine? "She didn't even try."
And considering the events of "In the Flesh", it's fairly obvious the Undine never left the possibility of a truce or a peace off the table.
Janeway just never wanted to deal with them diplomatically to begin with.
I'd argue that's not possible or in the very least, not practical. Different situations call for different perspectives and different strategies. Being "consistent" risks being inflexible and not adapting to the situation. If one makes the same choice every time, a situation will eventually arise in which that choice is the wrong choice or the poorest choice amongst other choices.
I was reading up on the Wikipedia article on the Prime Directive. Some facts:
1. It prohibits Starfleet personnel from interfering with the internal development of alien civilizations, specifically stating, "No starship may interfere with the normal development of any alien life or society." (see also General Order No. 1, Memory Beta)
2. It's meant to prevent Starfleet from using technology to impose values or will over a lesser people.
3. It has 47 sub-orders, which aren't knowable to the general audience.
4. Once a violation has occurred, Starfleet personnel are allowed to directly intervene on the planet to attempt to minimize the harm as much as possible with an openness in proportion of how significant the exposure has been.
Now, it was the Nacene who interfered and pulled Voyager into the affairs of the Ocampa/Kazon conflict. In the TOS episode "Return of the Archons," Kirk stated that a computer intelligence violated its own form of a prime directive. Kirk then tricked the machine into self-destructing. Then Kirk commissioned counselors to assist the people.
Janeway's actions are similar to Kirk's, in that as Kirk could have let alone the situation, he intervened to return a society back to what was defined by the Prime Directive as a "normal development." The Ocampa's "normal development" were being disrupted by two more advanced civilizations than they, the Nacenes and the Kazon. By destroying the array, which fulfilled the request of the dying Nacene, Janeway was setting the Ocampa up to evolve without further interference from anyone.
Heh, that general premise is pretty much what the entirety of Encounter at Farpoint was all about.
Janeway was persuaded by Kes that it was an invasion force, which was the truth. Kes told Janeway that 8472 came from a dimension where nothing else lived, an entire universe devoid of all life but one. Kes stated, "They intend on destroying everything." The Undine had attacked Kim and had shot at Voyager.
Now, Janeway wrestled all night over what to do. She visited Da Vinci to seek his counsel. Eventually, she came to the idea of using diplomacy with the devil that she knew to fight against the devil that she didn't. What was the deal? To give the Borg the ability to repel the invasion in exchange for passage.
These are the facts. Diplomacy was not a viable option. It was too risky. But the counter-argument is that she didn't consider riding up to them and engaging in some chit chat. But that does eventually happen. I'd even go so far as to argue that the diplomacy with Pseudo-Boothby ("In the Flesh") was a direct consequence of repelling the Undine invasion. When the Undine were ready to storm out of the talks, Janeway had Seven disarm the warheads.
The fact is, it was the Undine who refused diplomacy, whose arrogance was so high that they thought they'd run roughshod over everyone else, until they were stopped. Seven quoted, "Your galaxy will be purged. Sound familiar?" Then they had to turn to diplomacy. It was Janeway's labors to win some iota of trust with the Undine.
The comment I quoted above mischaracterizes Janeway's motivations. She would have chosen diplomacy in a heartbeat if she thought it was a viable option.
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I actually avoid success entirely. It doesn't get me what I want, and the consequences for failure are slim. -- markhawman
You gotta be more flexable when you are totally cut off. She may have bent the rules a lot, and maybe broken a couple, but you gotta weigh it against the survival of everyone aboard.
all this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
system Lord Baal is dead
I'd be a lot more willing to forgive her if she weren't (a) so inconsistent and/or (b) not portrayed as quite such a sanctimoniously holier-than-thou Perfect Captain with a Perfect Hero Ship.
this i know one i think all these Janeway haters must really hate it went on for a successful 7 years
system Lord Baal is dead
You mean like Picard was? And this is speaking as Picard fan No. 1, here. Picard could be extremely holier-than-thou perfect captain with perfect hero ship about 80% of the time.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
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Umm, no. There were multitudes of problems with VOY, Janeway barely factored into them.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
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'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Yea but he was Picard. Most of the time he didn't willingly violate the Prime Directive (although there were times when it was called for to violate it). In addition Picard generally didn't commit murder and genocide.
Yeah, did Picard ever launch the equivalent of bioweapons on a sentient species?
Did Picard let an entire species selfdestruct without so much as an anonymous warning note?
Did Picard stick rigidly to the PD in one episode...then throw it out the window in another?
That's the thing about Janeway. In "Caretaker", she tosses General Order One out the window. Three episodes later, she lets an entire species die because the Prime Directive says don't interfere.
She's an inconsistent psychopath as written.
Neither did Janeway and, in the interests of fairness, Picard tried to commit genocide against the borg in 'I Borg'.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Don't think Picard ever murdered anyone, unless Shinzon counts. He killed some guys, mostly Borg drones, and let Ru'afo blow up, but then again there wasn't much he could do to save Ru'afo and Borg drones are enemy combatants.
And while Picard may not have cared about the LETTER of the PD, he certainly stuck to its spirit. Look at that episode with the primitive Vulcan-like people; Picard has a small PD breach and turns it into a massive PD breach to save a crew member and to stop the culture from regressing to a primitive, religious state.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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...Yeah, but he ended up refusing to send Hugh back with the pathogen thing.
Picard wrestled with moral dilemmas a lot. He made decisions that were pretty openly wrong (c.f. the Jono/Jeremiah Rossa incident), and he admitted it.
Janeway did evil things pretty much at random and acted like she was some kind of saint.
Actually, yes he does. In season 1, he violates the PD to save Wesley (Justice), only to stick rigidly to it in Symbiosis.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Not totally true. If Deanna and Beverly hadn't objected, Picard would have never spoken to Hugh, which is what triggered him to refuse to weaponise Hugh.
In the same way, Janeway only used the nanite weapons after the Borg essentially hijacked Voyager and took the crew hostage. As Captain, her crew was her first priority and the Undine already considered Voyager an enemy before Voyager even had a chance to attack them.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
And Season 1 is the worst-written of all the TNG seasons. Plus, the Edo were a f*cked-up case not dissimilar from the Ocampa; and let's not forget that the Enterprise crew just beamed down like there was nothing wrong with taking a vacation on a presumably pre-warp planet.
I prefer to ignore certain Star Trek episodes for the sake of my own sanity. "Justice", "Spock's Brain", "Code of Honor", "Threshold".
My issue with Janeway boils down to crappy writing. She is portrayed in multiple episodes of every season proclaiming contradictory moral absolutisms from one episode to the next, and never gets called out on it or treated like anything but a brilliant saint.
Picard, despite being epic, makes mistakes, screws up, and makes bad judgement calls, and gets called out on them.
To use a somewhat obscure Brandon Sanderson reference (it's been a few weeks since I've read this particular passage, bear with me):
In a nutshell, occasional TRIBBLE-ups, admitted and pointed out, are OK. What isn't OK is acting like a complete psychopath and getting treated like a god among men.
It happened and it's canon. This was just one example. Another would be the Mintakans, where he absolutely blasts the PD into smithereens.
I should note, I do support Picard ignoring the PD in both cases. I actually like Wesley.
Hold on, what was wrong with Code of Honour? That's one of my favourites! (Though, that's a very, very, long list. :P)
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
The second...
Picard did ABSOLUTELY what he should have done there. Blowing the PD to bits was really the only option to (a) save Troi and (b) stop the Mintakan civilization from regressing to a primitive religion with sentient sacrifice. Picard absolutely stuck to the spirit over the letter of the PD there.
It was racist tripe.
Racist, sexist, just generally bad, and reminiscent of the 3rd episode of SG-1 in a bad way.