I wouldn't call the Borg evil. Malevolent, yes, but not evil. What they are doing is trying to bring order to chaos - they don't assimilate to be evil. Same as how you wouldn't call the Founders evil, even though they wanted to achieve the same goal through conquest and subjugation.
I would.
I would call Salome Jens's Founder, the one that impersonated that ambassador, and pretty much all of them but Odo evil.
The Borg are an unreasoning machine whose sole goal is the genocide of every other life form. They are evil.
I would call Salome Jens's Founder, the one that impersonated that ambassador, and pretty much all of them but Odo evil.
The Borg are an unreasoning machine whose sole goal is the genocide of every other life form. They are evil.
Assimilation and genocide are not the same thing. No one actually dies upon assimilation; rather, their memories, knowledge and consciousness are added to the greater whole.
As for the Founders, just because you don't agree with their methods or wishes doesn't make them evil. Otherwise, you could call Napoleon Bonaparte evil, or Vladimir Lenin.
i wouldnt say "unknowing pawns", more that they have entirely enough motivation to attack of their own volition.
the iconians actions against the undine are probably less provocation to get them to attack the alpha quadrant, and more destabilisation.
since the counterfeit ships mean nobody gets their hands on more iconian tech, and the undine have to keep their forces devided to defend against them showing up wherever the iconians feel like sending them.
other wise the iconians would have to deal with the undivided attention of the undine.
I haven't actually played the revamped Undine arc yet, so I'm still thinking of how it was before. Perhaps 'manipulated' would be a better word?
The Terradome episode showed unequivocally that the Undine are capable of independent thought and are willing to negotiate. The Borg are not willing to negotiate unless it somehow benefits them, and their version of "negotiation" is "you give us everything you have and line up for assimilation".
The Undine are fundamentally more human than the Borg, who are the incarnation of an evil, omnicidal maniac.
No it's not incorrect. The Undine in Terradome are the first to say that their government will not back down, do you remember? The Undine clearly state that the races out of fluidic space need to be purged and that all will die.
And if you use STO as continuation, you know that the Undine are still set in destroying the other races.
All this even after they become aware that Voyager allied with the Borg before they knew the Borg attacked first, and so on. The Borg are point to point minded, they can't fight it. The Undine are not and still they choose to pursue the idea of anahilating everyone else. The Undine are worse than the Borg. Only a bit more conservative in the way they do things.
Not necessarily. The Undine only attacked our dimension after the Iconians attacked them, undoing all the work Janeway did in Terradome (or whatever that episode was called). It wasn't an unprovoked attack.
As I said previously. No.
Even after they are provided with the facts they still want anahilation of other races.
Maybe she should have teamed up with 8472 against the Borg, whilst then developing bioweapons in her spare time for 8472s inevitable betrayal.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Okay, got bored after skimming the first seven pages of this (as the arguments became more than a little redundant), but I did see one point raised that wasn;t properly refuted during that time.
The charge of high treason against Janeway rests on one particular, the accusation that she aided a declared enemy of the Federation against a third party with poorly-understood motivations. However, while there may have existed a state of mutual belligerance de facto between the UFP and the Borg Collective, to the best of my knowledge there was never an official declaration of war to make the state de jure. Thus, agreements of mutual aid in order to get the ship and her crew out of an insanely dangerous position and closer to home would seem to fall under the purview of the individual captain, particularly as there is no possible consultation with higher authority.
In re: the Equinox - generally, when two officers are the same rank, relative authority is discovered by comparison of dates of promotion (or, should those match, length of service). Thus, as to which officer should command their sudden two-ship task force, the question becomes which one made Captain first. I don't believe we were ever given this information.
As for the Founders, just because you don't agree with their methods or wishes doesn't make them evil. Otherwise, you could call Napoleon Bonaparte evil, or Vladimir Lenin.
But look what the female changling did towards the end of DS9. She got annoyed at a few rebel cardassians so she decided to order a genocide on the entire race.
That's like something Hitler would do if you got him agitated enough.
But look what the female changling did towards the end of DS9. She got annoyed at a few rebel cardassians so she decided to order a genocide on the entire race.
That's like something Hitler would do if you got him agitated enough.
You cannot condemn an entire species for the acts of one person.
thats still unnecessary though.
while the iconians may well be taking advantage of the situation, they didnt need to create it. just act at the same time.
if they are doing anything, it would be slowing down the undine to prolong the conflict.
the alpha quadrant (despite the way the game portreys the undine), dont have the scientific foundations yet to create bio-mechanoid starships, the undine do.
the undine have the capacity to oneshot a cube, alpha quadrant needs a fleet to stop a single cube.
though im not sure the games writers are going to acknowledge the assault and massive insult inflicted on the undine with the casual ability to assimilate their ships, any more than they would acknowledge gorn shields blocking thaleron blasts.
But, as far as I know, wasn't it the Iconians who antagonised the Undine into attacking the Alpha Quadrant in the first place?
If it pleases the court, I'd like to point out a few things
1. The peace treaty Janeway achieved with 8472 was honoured until the Undine pointed out that they were being invaded. Intelligence recovered from a task force sent to find out why the undine are at war with us suggests the Iconians are involved and are the ones creating the illusion that the Federation is invading 8472's space.
2. Command is given to the captain with the tactically more powerful starship.
Okay, got bored after skimming the first seven pages of this (as the arguments became more than a little redundant), but I did see one point raised that wasn;t properly refuted during that time.
The charge of high treason against Janeway rests on one particular, the accusation that she aided a declared enemy of the Federation against a third party with poorly-understood motivations. However, while there may have existed a state of mutual belligerance de facto between the UFP and the Borg Collective, to the best of my knowledge there was never an official declaration of war to make the state de jure. Thus, agreements of mutual aid in order to get the ship and her crew out of an insanely dangerous position and closer to home would seem to fall under the purview of the individual captain, particularly as there is no possible consultation with higher authority.
In re: the Equinox - generally, when two officers are the same rank, relative authority is discovered by comparison of dates of promotion (or, should those match, length of service). Thus, as to which officer should command their sudden two-ship task force, the question becomes which one made Captain first. I don't believe we were ever given this information.
I find it IMPOSSIBLE to believe that the UFP and/or its allies did NOT declare war on the Borg Collective following the Battle of Wolf 359 and following conflicts with the Borg.
While jonsills is technically correct that canon does not say whether or not the UFP officially declared war on the Borg, the overwhelming preponderance of evidence shows that the UFP was either in a state of declared war with the Collective, or led by literally brain-dead incompetents.
If it pleases the court, I'd like to point out a few things
1. The peace treaty Janeway achieved with 8472 was honoured until the Undine pointed out that they were being invaded. Intelligence recovered from a task force sent to find out why the undine are at war with us suggests the Iconians are involved and are the ones creating the illusion that the Federation is invading 8472's space.
Which from the Undine POV is a valid reason to kick our butts; we agreed to keep our messes in our space, and we failed. Therefore, since we're clearly weak and incompetent, they have a duty to sterilize our space.
I find it IMPOSSIBLE to believe that the UFP and/or its allies did NOT declare war on the Borg Collective following the Battle of Wolf 359 and following conflicts with the Borg.
While jonsills is technically correct that canon does not say whether or not the UFP officially declared war on the Borg, the overwhelming preponderance of evidence shows that the UFP was either in a state of declared war with the Collective, or led by literally brain-dead incompetents.
To be fair, I think the latter is more than a little likely.
I find it IMPOSSIBLE to believe that the UFP and/or its allies did NOT declare war on the Borg Collective following the Battle of Wolf 359 and following conflicts with the Borg.
This is the same Federation that managed to bork up the Organian Peace Treaty, which should have made conflict with the Klingon Empire literally impossible for the foreseeable future. Further, just to ride your personal hobbyhorse for a moment, it's the same group that placed Kathryn Janeway in command of an Intrepid-class ship, and sent her into the Badlands in the first place.
Is it truly impossible to believe that they might be so bureaucratically locked down as to be unable to issue a declaration of war when they have not yet been able to contact the leaders of their opponents?
I find it IMPOSSIBLE to believe that the UFP and/or its allies did NOT declare war on the Borg Collective following the Battle of Wolf 359 and following conflicts with the Borg.
While jonsills is technically correct that canon does not say whether or not the UFP officially declared war on the Borg, the overwhelming preponderance of evidence shows that the UFP was either in a state of declared war with the Collective, or led by literally brain-dead incompetents.
As I said a few pages back, I don't think that whatever the other races have with the collective can be considered a war.
It's an armed conflict, no doubt. But it lacks some "characteristics" a war usually posesses. There is no Borg govenment - at least that would fit such a description - so a formal declaration of war can not be presented. There are no diplomatic medium. Moreover there is no attack on the collective. The action is always defense from their incursions. There is no tactical and stategical actions from the Federation or the other powers towards the borg. It's always reaction.
This is the same Federation that managed to bork up the Organian Peace Treaty, which should have made conflict with the Klingon Empire literally impossible for the foreseeable future. Further, just to ride your personal hobbyhorse for a moment, it's the same group that placed Kathryn Janeway in command of an Intrepid-class ship, and sent her into the Badlands in the first place.
Is it truly impossible to believe that they might be so bureaucratically locked down as to be unable to issue a declaration of war when they have not yet been able to contact the leaders of their opponents?
...
Unfortunately, I can easily imagine that.
You do have a point, but whenever I try to imagine the UFP council NOT declaring war on the Borg, my brain rebels.
Heh. Given Command's record, I'd say that they're metaphorically brain-dead, not literally.
The fact remains that Janeway sold out the galaxy to the Borg because she didn't like the looks of 8472.
That's libel. There is no evidence she based her decision on 8472 being alien. You keep calling her a xenophobe without any credible evidence.
Calling her a traitor is one thing (you can actually support that argument, though it is open for debate), but calling her xenophobic because she resolved to treat 8472 as the enemy is not a valid argument. If it is, then Kirk and Sisko are xenophobe so for fighting the Klingons, and Picard for fighting the Romulans.
You do have a point, but whenever I try to imagine the UFP council NOT declaring war on the Borg, my brain rebels.
Unfortunately, it's mentioned in 'I Borg' that there is no state of war, so it is canon.
Besides, how do you declare war on a faction which has no government? You can't declare war on terrorists, only governments. The Borg have no government. A declaration of war also has to be reciprocated, which the Borg are incapable of doing.
While a de facto state of warfare may be in place, this does not a war make. The Iraq War, for example, was not technically a war; the US never made a declaration of hostilities, and haven't since Vietnam.
alpha quadrant needs a fleet to stop a single cube..
Not any more. An average ship of 2410 can easily 1 vs 1 a normal Cube, and now we are rapidly approaching the point where 5 Tac Cubes are needed to defeat a single state of the art STO player ship.
Then take Churchill's actions concerning Coventry as an example. He allowed an entire city to be destroyed so that the Germans wouldn't know we'd cracked the Enigma Code. Was that evil?
You cannot condemn an entire species for the acts of one person.
Was it really one person though considering they policy was do what we tell you or out cloned soldiers kill you, and they've used genocidal viruses in the past.
That's libel. There is no evidence she based her decision on 8472 being alien. You keep calling her a xenophobe without any credible evidence.
Calling her a traitor is one thing (you can actually support that argument, though it is open for debate), but calling her xenophobic because she resolved to treat 8472 as the enemy is not a valid argument. If it is, then Kirk and Sisko are xenophobe so for fighting the Klingons, and Picard for fighting the Romulans.
Actually...
(WARNING: Some RL politics is referenced to make this point. I will not respond to criticisms of this argument as I do not want this to get dragged into the politics hole)
I'm calling Janeway a xenophobe for a very similar reason to why I call the Tea Party racists. I bet that Janeway wouldn't have had a problem with helping 8472 if they were blond white Space Elves like Kes; just as I bet that 99% of the Tea Party wouldn't keep harping on Bengazhi and other manufactoversies if Obama were white.
We are getting distracted from the simple truth of the matter, which is that "Scorpion" is a particularly poorly-written episode of a spottily-written show.
It's completely feasible most of the Delta Quadrant thinks the Federation are monsters after Janeway's 'first contacts' with them.
What will they think after us lot pay them a visit to the Delta quadrant, we don't even offer vessels a chance to surrender and we aren't limited to 36 torpedos when it comes to the Kazen either.
Janeway may be a war criminal but what will they be calling us after we receive a accolade for destroying 1000 Kazen ships, or we destroy so many Vaadwaur vessels that they should be extinct, considering only few hundred of them got off that planet.
What will they think after us lot pay a visit to the Delta quadrant, we don't even offer vessels a chance to surrender and we aren't limited to 36 torpedos when it comes to the Kazen either.
Janeway may be a war criminal but what will they be calling us after we receive a accolade for destroying 1000 Kazen ships, or we destroy so many Vaadwaur vessels that they should be extinct, considering only few hundred of them got off that planet.
But that's different. That's a video game.
:P
Nah, this is going to be a pretty hard-to-believe expansion. IMHO STO would've been better served by branching more towards DS9 than Voyager, but meh.
(WARNING: Some RL politics is referenced to make this point. I will not respond to criticisms of this argument as I do not want this to get dragged into the politics hole)
I'm calling Janeway a xenophobe for a very similar reason to why I call the Tea Party racists. I bet that Janeway wouldn't have had a problem with helping 8472 if they were blond white Space Elves like Kes; just as I bet that 99% of the Tea Party wouldn't keep harping on Bengazhi and other manufactoversies if Obama were white.
We are getting distracted from the simple truth of the matter, which is that "Scorpion" is a particularly poorly-written episode of a spottily-written show.
May be Janeway wouldn't have a problem with Species 8472 is they were a tad bit friendlier and less shoot first and ask questions later kind of race. An the whole purge the galaxy of all lower life forms attitude they had going on.
Comments
I would.
I would call Salome Jens's Founder, the one that impersonated that ambassador, and pretty much all of them but Odo evil.
The Borg are an unreasoning machine whose sole goal is the genocide of every other life form. They are evil.
Assimilation and genocide are not the same thing. No one actually dies upon assimilation; rather, their memories, knowledge and consciousness are added to the greater whole.
As for the Founders, just because you don't agree with their methods or wishes doesn't make them evil. Otherwise, you could call Napoleon Bonaparte evil, or Vladimir Lenin.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
I haven't actually played the revamped Undine arc yet, so I'm still thinking of how it was before. Perhaps 'manipulated' would be a better word?
That works too.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
No it's not incorrect. The Undine in Terradome are the first to say that their government will not back down, do you remember? The Undine clearly state that the races out of fluidic space need to be purged and that all will die.
And if you use STO as continuation, you know that the Undine are still set in destroying the other races.
All this even after they become aware that Voyager allied with the Borg before they knew the Borg attacked first, and so on. The Borg are point to point minded, they can't fight it. The Undine are not and still they choose to pursue the idea of anahilating everyone else. The Undine are worse than the Borg. Only a bit more conservative in the way they do things.
As I said previously. No.
Even after they are provided with the facts they still want anahilation of other races.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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The charge of high treason against Janeway rests on one particular, the accusation that she aided a declared enemy of the Federation against a third party with poorly-understood motivations. However, while there may have existed a state of mutual belligerance de facto between the UFP and the Borg Collective, to the best of my knowledge there was never an official declaration of war to make the state de jure. Thus, agreements of mutual aid in order to get the ship and her crew out of an insanely dangerous position and closer to home would seem to fall under the purview of the individual captain, particularly as there is no possible consultation with higher authority.
In re: the Equinox - generally, when two officers are the same rank, relative authority is discovered by comparison of dates of promotion (or, should those match, length of service). Thus, as to which officer should command their sudden two-ship task force, the question becomes which one made Captain first. I don't believe we were ever given this information.
Sorry for the "cut"
That's what I've been saying
But look what the female changling did towards the end of DS9. She got annoyed at a few rebel cardassians so she decided to order a genocide on the entire race.
That's like something Hitler would do if you got him agitated enough.
Let's not bring Hitler into this...
No Stalin either!
You cannot condemn an entire species for the acts of one person.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
But, as far as I know, wasn't it the Iconians who antagonised the Undine into attacking the Alpha Quadrant in the first place?
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
1. The peace treaty Janeway achieved with 8472 was honoured until the Undine pointed out that they were being invaded. Intelligence recovered from a task force sent to find out why the undine are at war with us suggests the Iconians are involved and are the ones creating the illusion that the Federation is invading 8472's space.
2. Command is given to the captain with the tactically more powerful starship.
I find it IMPOSSIBLE to believe that the UFP and/or its allies did NOT declare war on the Borg Collective following the Battle of Wolf 359 and following conflicts with the Borg.
While jonsills is technically correct that canon does not say whether or not the UFP officially declared war on the Borg, the overwhelming preponderance of evidence shows that the UFP was either in a state of declared war with the Collective, or led by literally brain-dead incompetents.
Unless that Captain is unfit for command, as Janeway clearly is.
To be fair, I think the latter is more than a little likely.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Is it truly impossible to believe that they might be so bureaucratically locked down as to be unable to issue a declaration of war when they have not yet been able to contact the leaders of their opponents?
As I said a few pages back, I don't think that whatever the other races have with the collective can be considered a war.
It's an armed conflict, no doubt. But it lacks some "characteristics" a war usually posesses. There is no Borg govenment - at least that would fit such a description - so a formal declaration of war can not be presented. There are no diplomatic medium. Moreover there is no attack on the collective. The action is always defense from their incursions. There is no tactical and stategical actions from the Federation or the other powers towards the borg. It's always reaction.
Heh. Given Command's record, I'd say that they're metaphorically brain-dead, not literally.
The fact remains that Janeway sold out the galaxy to the Borg because she didn't like the looks of 8472.
...
Unfortunately, I can easily imagine that.
You do have a point, but whenever I try to imagine the UFP council NOT declaring war on the Borg, my brain rebels.
That's libel. There is no evidence she based her decision on 8472 being alien. You keep calling her a xenophobe without any credible evidence.
Calling her a traitor is one thing (you can actually support that argument, though it is open for debate), but calling her xenophobic because she resolved to treat 8472 as the enemy is not a valid argument. If it is, then Kirk and Sisko are xenophobe so for fighting the Klingons, and Picard for fighting the Romulans.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Unfortunately, it's mentioned in 'I Borg' that there is no state of war, so it is canon.
Besides, how do you declare war on a faction which has no government? You can't declare war on terrorists, only governments. The Borg have no government. A declaration of war also has to be reciprocated, which the Borg are incapable of doing.
While a de facto state of warfare may be in place, this does not a war make. The Iraq War, for example, was not technically a war; the US never made a declaration of hostilities, and haven't since Vietnam.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Not any more. An average ship of 2410 can easily 1 vs 1 a normal Cube, and now we are rapidly approaching the point where 5 Tac Cubes are needed to defeat a single state of the art STO player ship.
Which is a total Myth
http://www.winstonchurchill.org/learn/myths/myths/1561-coventry-what-really-happened-
Was it really one person though considering they policy was do what we tell you or out cloned soldiers kill you, and they've used genocidal viruses in the past.
Actually...
(WARNING: Some RL politics is referenced to make this point. I will not respond to criticisms of this argument as I do not want this to get dragged into the politics hole)
I'm calling Janeway a xenophobe for a very similar reason to why I call the Tea Party racists. I bet that Janeway wouldn't have had a problem with helping 8472 if they were blond white Space Elves like Kes; just as I bet that 99% of the Tea Party wouldn't keep harping on Bengazhi and other manufactoversies if Obama were white.
We are getting distracted from the simple truth of the matter, which is that "Scorpion" is a particularly poorly-written episode of a spottily-written show.
What will they think after us lot pay them a visit to the Delta quadrant, we don't even offer vessels a chance to surrender and we aren't limited to 36 torpedos when it comes to the Kazen either.
Janeway may be a war criminal but what will they be calling us after we receive a accolade for destroying 1000 Kazen ships, or we destroy so many Vaadwaur vessels that they should be extinct, considering only few hundred of them got off that planet.
But that's different. That's a video game.
:P
Nah, this is going to be a pretty hard-to-believe expansion. IMHO STO would've been better served by branching more towards DS9 than Voyager, but meh.