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Season 9 Dev Blog #29 - Exploration Cluster Removal

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  • pwefailpwefail Member Posts: 197 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    so add dilithium to single player content.......hhhm starting to look and sound like a persistant universe rpg.
    whatever happened to playing new missions with a team of fleeties.

    wasn't too fussed about that until i read adding dilithium to single player content.sigh.
    The player formerly known as Chunter.
  • sheldonlcoopersheldonlcooper Member Posts: 4,042 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I've already expressed my disappointment over this several times.

    I just want to add that having solo simple missions is important. You can test out new things there and just mess around etc...

    For space equipment I suppose you can do this in a few places still, but there is very little opportunity on the ground now.

    Leaning on the community to build this content for you seems a bit... dodgy.

    I guess that's going to be the solution though. So I guess I'll be playing more foundry.
    Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."

    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

  • sistericsisteric Member Posts: 768 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    racerexia wrote: »
    Grrrr.... this is annoying, Why am I being forced to earn my crafting mats by having to Queue into TRIBBLE that takes forever to get a full team or have the Que crash. Exploration clusters could have remained, if nothing else than for those of us who actually make use of them! If I want crafting mats I don't want other ppl distracting me! You know sometimes playing solo is the best part of the damned game, this just makes the game less fun and to be honest you could have improved this. So who cares if its not up to "standards" when your standards are already so messed up. Considered this a short rant :mad: compared to the one I had planed a few seconds ago... lol :P

    One thing to consider, if they make it so that you can only get mats in PVE Queue's, then that content will see more people queueing to get the mats. Which will lower the wait time.

    But I do agree that they need to create content that is solo based than group queueing. I play this game more often Solo than with any person.
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  • risian4risian4 Member Posts: 3,711 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    So instead of changing the exploration clusters to make them "up to our current standards" they are simply being removed.

    The second reason is simply ridiculous. There are crafting materials that we don't want to be available in the Clusters, so we remove the Clusters instead of the crafting materials?
    'There's a pimple on my face. Better remove the face then.'

    Ri-di-cu-lous reason. Can't call it anything else.
  • iconiansiconians Member Posts: 6,987 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Before I start, I'd like to go ahead and make it clear I am 100% for the removal of Star Cluster missions.

    That being said, this blog was very poorly communicated. When you are trying to hype up your playerbase, this blog really is not doing Cryptic any favors.

    So, shall we begin?
    When they were created, we envisioned Exploration Clusters to fill the “explore strange new worlds” part of the Star Trek mantra.

    This is a good thing. This is something in the first part of the blog that really hooks players into reading more.

    That is the wind-up.
    With the steadily improving quality of mission content available throughout STO as well as our recent efforts to explore more distant parts of the galaxy, Exploration Clusters have become something we’re reluctant to steer new players towards because they are not up to our current standards.

    If something is not up to your current standards, you replace them with something better. My ears are not up to my current standards for the ability to hear, but I'm not going to cut them off entirely -- or get cochlear implant surgery. I simply tolerate my ears being the way they are, and use it as something to define part of who I am -- imperfections and all.
    But one of the main reasons they’ve stayed in the game as long as they have, is that Exploration Clusters remain a major source of crafting materials.

    That is your problem, not the players' problem. Why punish the players for something that you did to begin with? Instead of working around the problem, you remove the star clusters entirely.
    As a result, we’ve been able to reexamine the inclusion of Exploration Clusters in STO and found them not to be up to the quality of experience we want our players to have.
    It's funny how you only reexamine these things when PWE's bottom line is at stake. I can point to any number of parts of STO that are 'not up to your current standards', but I don't see you amputating them from the game.

    Why is that? Because they don't affect the microtransactions you expect to get from the C-store.

    It's a great way to sound diplomatic, but for people who read between the lines you come off as the same slimy big conglomerate who's too afraid to tell the truth. By using weasel words like 'not up to our current standards', PWE/Cryptic is coming across as pretty shady.

    That's the pitch.
    For those who will miss the opportunity to explore these particular locations, we will be adding doors to the Foundry so that player-created missions can make use of these settings. The limitless nature of the potential missions that can be created using the Foundry as well as the high quality of content that Foundry authors continue to deliver are both exactly in line with the original goals of Exploration Clusters.

    And that's a strike.

    You can't control the quality of Foundry missions. They could be better or worse than what we already had. Your reluctance to actually improve the Foundry and make it more robust, versatile, and less buggy makes your delivery of this 'substitute' for Star Cluster missions pretty flimsy and cheap.

    I have nothing but respect for Foundry authors, but if this is your substitute for exploration, then you need to bring something more tangible to the table.

    "The 'Genesis' Engine? Not up to our standards." "Loot-o-Matic Foundry missions, missions with extremely poor design by the authors, and other TRIBBLE that makes a 4 year old system look good in comparison? TOTALLY UP TO OUR STANDARDS!"

    The only good parts about the blog are the informative parts on things only a few people have shed some light on.

    Thank you for including accolade progress in this change. Thank you for including Suliban/Tuffli support on this.
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  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,980 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    nobody believes that removing content makes a game better:

    Actually that's nonsense. Streamlining can often make a game a lot better by emphasizing its better elements while reducing or removing the lacking or fluff content (see. Oblivion to Skyrim if exploration missions aren't obvious enough examples.) Where the issue seems to be is that established player bases don't like giving up content for the simple reason that they see it as theirs. If something is going to be lost, self respect demands that something else be gained. They can't see the big picture, only the small transactions going on in front of them because that's all a sense of self-respect is concerned with. Image, and gain.
    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
    Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
    Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
  • dirtysteeldirtysteel Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Needs more exploration not less!!
    I play foundry missions...ALLOT, but I also like the exploration.
    It does get redundant, but thats why it needs a revamp not a "get rid of"...come on Cryptic, more is always better.

    ...Your making it harder to enjoy the game.

    you take away, fix stuff that is not broken, break stuff that is not broken, and on top of it all you can't even make the easiest of changes to make Star Trek Online, Star Trek.

    Why do everyone including myself, beam to bridge instead of the transporter room?
    Why does all my crew wear an outfit that my Bridge Officers do not wear?
    Why does PvP suck?
    Does anyone who watch, appreciate, and WANT Star Trek in STO, work at Cryptic any more?

    More not Less...
    Explore and seek out...
    Star Trek in Star Trek Online!

    Dont lose the Star Trek crowd for the sake of making an everyone else MMO.
  • blassreiterusblassreiterus Member Posts: 1,294 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Dear Mr. Lead Content Designer,
    nobody believes that removing content makes a game better. Personally I don't believe just one of the reasons you gave us in your post. Usually I'd like to ask for the real reasons but to be honest, a game that acts so stupid is not worth the effort. IMHO it's a good time to look for another game to play - of course nothing from PWE.:mad:
    Excuse me, you said "nobody" believe that removing something from the game makes it better? You seriously are saying that? Did you ask every single player about this situation? If you didn't ask every single player what they thought of this situation, then you shouldn't make such a generalized comment like "Nobody believes...." It's clear that you don't like it... as for me, I have no opinion on it... Oh, and thanks for asking me if I liked the decision (this last line is sarcasm).
    Star Trek Online LTS player.
  • sfc#5932 sfc Member Posts: 992 Bug Hunter
    edited July 2014
    ekumulum wrote: »
    "Leutenant, activate Phasers and Torpedos. Target: Cryptic Studios"

    .... "Fire!"

    No more money for PWE and Cryptic from me. I know no Onlinegame that deactivated Content. Only the stupid PWE Money maker and Community-hater mashine.

    Cryptic was better when it wasn't F2P

    sry guys, I'm really frustrated about this change.:mad:
    Yeah! We were much better with Atari where we had absolutely no content and less funding than we have now.
  • fireseeedfireseeed Member Posts: 146 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    mhall85 wrote: »
    A very sensible and well-written dev blog.

    Yes, I think this is a great idea... because the cluster missions were exactly substandard content. I might've played through the cluster missions in Delta Vorlanis maybe... twice? They were LAME and BORING... and, they are just as much of a grind-fest as endgame STFs. Their stories added NOTHING to this game... good riddance. The Foundry additions & the adjustment to the Tuffi and Cell Ship are nice touches. Most of all, there was no mention in the blog about new players getting "lost" in the clusters. Although I'm not sure who or what that was referencing, it was silly. Call a spade, a spade... the clusters are gone because they are LAME.

    It also baffles me why people are so enraged over a point release update, especially with a major expansion on the very near horizon. So many are acting like season 9.5 is the final release of Star Trek Online, and is some sort of referendum on the franchise and how this game has handled it. But, the story isn't over!!! And I'm not just talking about the main plot of the game. The next 12 months or so, judging at what I can read and hear in interviews, will see 9.5 + X2 + s10 come to this game. This entire conversation could be moot by then.

    Everything is certainly not roses in this game, I'm not that naive. It'd be nice if the Mac client had stereo sound, for starters... but, the knee-jerk cynicism on this forum is more exhausting than any STF grind.

    /rant

    Just my opinion... I think this game is fun, and I will leave it at that. :)
    It what adjudicatorhawk Cryptic Studios Team here http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=17625751&postcount=279
    I can answer this succinctly without touching on the rest of the thread yet - The Star Cluster missions were really out of date and a generally awful game experience for any new players who stumbled upon them. While those of us who are veterans of the game were able to accept them as their own thing and do them only when we wanted to, new players would (with moderate frequency) enter a star cluster mission, get lost or get blocked on an unclear objective, and then quit and never return.

    Additionally, the Star Cluster missions took up a sizable portion of the game's install size. This also negatively impacts new players, as the longer it takes to download and install the game, the less likely they are to actually complete the process and give it a shot. So the very existence of Star Cluster missions was essentially dinging our player retention at least twice for each new player.

    We recognize that removing them has removed a feeling of exploration from the game, and we know that the feeling of exploration is important to the Star Trek vision and feel - we'll want to rectify that. However, the presence of the Star Cluster missions in the game just provided so many negatives that they outweighed the positive of holding on to that feel of exploration.

    We're looking in to modifying the Exploration Accolades so that they're still obtainable.
  • sqwishedsqwished Member Posts: 1,475 Bug Hunter
    edited July 2014
    I'm disappointed that the exploration missions have been removed, but they are really poor as they are. And by adding the materials to the PvE queue missions I've no doubt we'll see an increase in AFKers in the queues. With the exploration missions removed it taken away a big chunk of what makes Trek, Trek. I can only hope that Cryptic have a revamped version of it in the works.
    Oh, it's not broken? We can soon fix that!

  • mhall85mhall85 Member Posts: 2,852 Arc User1
    edited July 2014
    johngazman wrote: »
    No-one here is arguing that Exploration Clusters were the cream of the content. In fact, that's part of why people are angry - they have asked and asked and asked for exploration to be revamped, and this is what happens. Maybe it will come with X2, but until they say so, this is exactly the sort of response that this kind of news deserves.

    As noted, this isn't simply about the clusters being removed. It's more about them not being replaced with something else. Similarly, this also takes away easy sources of Crafting Materials and some Dilithium - ahead of 9.5's crafting upgrade - without some definitive plan to solve the problems they've created by removing clusters seems like another instance of Cryptic jipping the players.

    Oh, I can certainly understand that.

    And, admittedly, I haven't been around these parts that long. From what I have read and seen, this history of this game has been rough, to say the least. That is where *some* of people's reactions are rooted, I'm sure... and I get that, too.

    I guess my bar for this game is low, compared to others on here. I've enjoyed playing, and plan on enjoying it more. :) That's all.
    d87926bd02aaa4eb12e2bb0fbc1f7061.jpg
  • sfc#5932 sfc Member Posts: 992 Bug Hunter
    edited July 2014
    sqwished wrote: »
    I'm disappointed that the exploration missions have been removed, but they are really poor as they are. And by adding the materials to the PvE queue missions I've no doubt we'll see an increase in AFKers in the queues. With the exploration missions removed it taken away a big chunk of what makes Trek, Trek. I can only hope that Cryptic have a revamped version of it in the works.
    AFKers will get slapped with a penalty. That's okay. I think we're getting angry about nothing, as usual. This is just the calm before the storm - I bet there's something larger on the horizon.
  • zeuxidemus001zeuxidemus001 Member Posts: 3,357 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I like the part where the guy says they want to make quality gameplay for *ALL* players roflmao.

    They should have said if you play what the majority are playing lol.
  • azurianstarazurianstar Member Posts: 6,985 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I said it on many threads that I can understand the exploration clusters were out of date, but STO isn't Star Trek without Exploration and hopefully they will put in real exploration.

    As for Crafting Materials and Dilithium earning, all I can say is that I hope it's fair and not another troublesome grind.
  • mushariagainmushariagain Member Posts: 304 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Great, one more thing removed that made the universe feel organic and added to the frikken pve queues, just to make things seem a little more mechanical. Cryptic, living up to their names. -.-
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    I'm not THAT difficult to please, I just have a very low tolerance threshold for stupid BS! - George Carlin.
  • sfc#5932 sfc Member Posts: 992 Bug Hunter
    edited July 2014
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    That is my hope as well. So, let's stay optimistic.
    I'm always optimistic. I'm completely fine with losing these clusters, I never used them anyway other than for stopping in for DOFFs every once and a while.
  • mhall85mhall85 Member Posts: 2,852 Arc User1
    edited July 2014
    fireseeed wrote: »
    I what adjudicatorhawk Cryptic Studios Team here http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=17625751&postcount=279

    And that is probably where I am coming from. I only started playing in late March. And I fully understand and agree with AdjudicatorHawk's comments.
    d87926bd02aaa4eb12e2bb0fbc1f7061.jpg
  • paperclipriderpapercliprider Member Posts: 44 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Excuse me, you said "nobody" believe that removing something from the game makes it better? You seriously are saying that? Did you ask every single player about this situation? If you didn't ask every single player what they thought of this situation, then you shouldn't make such a generalized comment like "Nobody believes...." It's clear that you don't like it... as for me, I have no opinion on it... Oh, and thanks for asking me if I liked the decision (this last line is sarcasm).

    That's your point? Yeah, it's a generalisation I give you that. Obviously you're missing the my point but because you seem to be interested more in details than in the meaning: My post is adressed to Mr. Lead Content Designer and I'm pretty sure that's not you.
    So you're a native speaker and I'm not. So what?:P
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,980 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    dirtysteel wrote: »
    you take away, fix stuff that is not broken, break stuff that is not broken, and on top of it all you can't even make the easiest of changes to make Star Trek Online, Star Trek.

    Well besides incorporating well known voice actors into missions of a quality that Star Trek games generally haven't seen.

    They've also successfully revamped traits and kits without much fuss even for this group of gamers and brought in a lot of nice tweaks (ex. loadouts) that while having their associated glitch or two have made STO a nicer thing to play.

    And lets not forget you have the Dyson content which can easily let you have a strange new world to play with of greater scope and depth than anything we saw in the clusters. Just channel some DS9 and take it as an extended mission to a particular setting, rather than a romp through poorly developed world-lets.
    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
    Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
    Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
  • futurepastnowfuturepastnow Member Posts: 3,660 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    The exploration clusters and the missions they contain are terrible. I am genuinely embarrassed for the people who say they like the "exploration" in STO and want it to remain. It's that bad.
  • iconiansiconians Member Posts: 6,987 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Guess the 'players getting lost' wasn't believable enough to mention in the blog?

    I've personally always believed there's no such thing as getting lost in Star Trek -- simply exploring.

    Star Trek Online obviously does not share my philosophy.
    ExtxpTp.jpg
  • frtoasterfrtoaster Member Posts: 3,352 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    One concern raised in the Tribble forums is the reduction in the number of doff assignments available from exploration clusters. Before, when you entered an exploration cluster, doff assignments were available under "Current Map", "Personal", and "Department Heads". Now, when you click on the button next to an exploration cluster, the doff window opens up with one extra tab containing assignments from that cluster. I've not seen more than 5 assignments in that tab.

    Two solutions were suggested to address this:

    1. Add the assignments from the cluster to the sector block containing it, with a corresponding increase to the assignment limits for the sector block.

    2. Add multiple buttons to the exploration cluster tab that allow access to the cluster assignments previously available under "Current Map", "Personal", and "Department Heads".
    Waiting for a programmer ...
    qVpg1km.png
  • kirimuffinkirimuffin Member Posts: 695 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    bluegeek wrote: »
    Hm, I hope they're going to do more than just "add Foundry doors".

    We need campaigns similar to what NW's got and bare minimum something similar to NW's Harper mechanic where a local contact serves as an interface to provide content options specific to that area.

    This! Please! Right now, Foundry missions feel almost completely disconnected from the rest of the game, unlike Neverwinter where they feel like an organic part of it. I don't just want to go to the Foundry menu and search for a mission that uses a cluster as a door; I want to be able to fly up to a cluster, get a list of missions from that cluster, and pick one to do. It still wouldn't be the same, but at least it would feel a little more like I'm actually exploring something.
  • fireseeedfireseeed Member Posts: 146 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Guess the 'players getting lost' wasn't believable enough to mention in the blog?

    It perfectly believable that people got lost in a small square with only one exit. :P

    How will gamers cope with 400 billion stars in elite Universe or the so big you will never run into another player No Mans Sky universe is anyone guess.
  • vesterengvestereng Member Posts: 2,252 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Did you have to block access to materials inside cluster aswell as flying in there because the missions were bugged ?

    Seems to me you could just disable the missions not the entire map...


    Anyway hope you considering doing something with diplomacy and exploration in the future
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    fireseeed wrote: »
    It perfectly believable that people got lost in a small square with only one exit. :P

    Pug more...it's pretty believable at that point...unfortunately.

    I mean, think about it...they added the pathing to Cutting the Cord cause folks would get lost. The old ESD on arrival had the path to follow. Risa - there's these huge green markers for where you fly through - but uh - they still have the path there. It's all around the game...folks...small square..they could get lost. :(
  • dessniperdessniper Member Posts: 195 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    So in short, we are losing actual game play for more boff missions. How lucky us.
  • fireseeedfireseeed Member Posts: 146 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    iconians wrote: »
    I've personally always believed there's no such thing as getting lost in Star Trek -- simply exploring.

    Star Trek Online obviously does not share my philosophy.

    There no such thing as getting lost false stop, in the star trek universe or the real, it all just exploring and discovering things. :)
  • artemisa0kartemisa0k Member Posts: 142 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    While I have to admit I spend very little time and indeed have avoided the exploration clusters for awhile now, I really don't feel that their outright removal without some decent content replacement is a good idea.

    Realistically I think the most intelligent thing that could be done would be to leave them as they currently are however spend the next while communicating with foundry authors and add certain foundry missions directly into the pool of available cluster missions thereby increasing the amount of content available.

    Another decent option would be to nuke the cluster sector's go ahead with making it a map object but also add the option to explore the cluster which would trigger one of the typical cluster mission's and possibly foundry one's as well adding a possibility for it to generate map's with crafting node's and a few hostiles could be nice to.

    The biggest problem I can see with the current plan is you are removing content granted it might be what would be considered substandard content but its still content. It's akin to suddenly deciding that since the majority of older ships don't preform as well you might as well just remove them all from the game.

    Is there really that big of a reason or need to remove the clusters from the game until you actually have a decent replacement for them or indeed a actual realistic plan to improve the game with their removal ?

    I do very few foundry mission's even though there are a number of them that look rather interesting and some with amazing stories, why do I not bother with them ? the answer is quite simply the interface and current system for accessing them sucks. Adding the foundry missions into something like a pool of possibles through exploration would be a nice way to actually get more people playing them and make better use of what I really believe is a underused resource.

    Now granted you would have to have the foundry missions run through and checked out before adding them but I find it difficult to believe that there is no one working for the company who wouldn't be quite happy to get payed for playing the game for X amount of hrs. Hell I would do it gladly for minimum wage.
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