I think a lot of the people in this thread have far too much of an 'Us vs Them' mentality.
you mean the rest of us mere morals vs elitists? has there been any other type of debate on pvp in the past on different games over the years other then this arguement that holds any real weight? im not going on about balance, just fun, casual and hardcore mentalities.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Or you could do what I do and ignore PVP entirely. I particularly try to avoid the broken metaphors and endless bloviation that seems to be the PVPer's stock in trade.
And he that paid attention in school knows that cats are solitary hunters.
One hundred degrees isn't a rate. It's a scalar quantity. One hundred degrees per <unit of time> is a rate. One would think that PvPers would value precision, wouldn't one?
For which some people apparently show up unarmed--present company excepted, naturally.
The fact of the matter is that statements to that effect are one person's opinion.
Here is my opinion: PVP is the antithesis of Star Trek canon, Star Trek history, and what Gene Roddenberry intended Star Trek to be. It isn't that the mechanics of PvP in STO are broken--it's that the entire idea of PvP being in STO is broken. I can't be a rampant idealist in real life, but I'm comfortable being one here.
Sorry, no sale. Not buying. I'm not even browsing your shop of horrors. Good luck with your pointless little displays of aggression--they're adorable. I'll be over here in civilization if you need me.
Not true at all, I have watched every single star trek except DS9, and I can assure you that a Captain that wants to keep his crew alive needs practice! What better place to practice if not the holodeck? If you pay attention, before each PvP match there is a screen saying that it's a simulation of real combat.
i think and thats what i have read alot about is that people are annoyed that they have to grind/pay their life off just to be "okay" at PvP... this is not about smartyness.... no.. its about you get the most expensive piece of gear and minmaxing your stuff...
i personally find PvP unfair due to the fact that people with loads of time or money wil be always on top list...PLUS in most games pvp is nto abotu what weapon / style / species you like most.. no instead of that its about whats the OP gear ingame...
wich is why i only liked PvP in FPS games (( without payshop or grind)).... thsi is pure skill and reaction based... instead of what we have in mmorpgs...
I don't agree at all, in 3 months I have been able to get a new ship and half of my pvp gear, and this is while having a girlfriend, taking exams at school and sleeping enough at night. Also the best thing about STO is that there are no OP items, the high end items (fleet items and reputation items) are all at the same level more or less, and the ones you actually pay for aren't better than the fleet or reputation items, they are just different, so they fit better on very particular builds. So I do not agree at all with you. It is easy for a player with non end game gear (Mk XII exchange) to beat a top gear player if the first has experience. It just requires understanding of the game mechanics.
You say there's a lot of different builds and fighting styles in PvP. But every time I ever tried it, its the same thing. No one uses a ship they actually like. They use whatever wins faster. They don't use unique builds or different strategy's, its just gravity well and cannon rapid fire/ scatter volley/ A2B throughout the entire match. Those of us that want to have fun and try new things and use our favorite ships are already screwed before we even enter the queue. So, until there are strict limitations and rules set for PvP, I will continue UE to avoid it and advise others to do the same.
1 : No matchmaking system. Most games with an online pvp matches will have a matchmaker that measures your games and statistics, and puts you up against a roughly equal opponent.
2 : Too heavy gear requirements. Yes, it is all about a lot of very hard to get gear.
Mind, with STO pvp having few players ,matchmaking may not work properly, but it is a sound theory.
Of course...seeing what Cryptic did to Crafting, you guys should feel lucky they are ignoring pvp completely.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
Or you could do what I do and ignore PVP entirely. I particularly try to avoid the broken metaphors and endless bloviation that seems to be the PVPer's stock in trade.
And he that paid attention in school knows that cats are solitary hunters.
One hundred degrees isn't a rate. It's a scalar quantity. One hundred degrees per <unit of time> is a rate. One would think that PvPers would value precision, wouldn't one?
For which some people apparently show up unarmed--present company excepted, naturally.
The fact of the matter is that statements to that effect are one person's opinion.
Here is my opinion: PVP is the antithesis of Star Trek canon, Star Trek history, and what Gene Roddenberry intended Star Trek to be. It isn't that the mechanics of PvP in STO are broken--it's that the entire idea of PvP being in STO is broken. I can't be a rampant idealist in real life, but I'm comfortable being one here.
Sorry, no sale. Not buying. I'm not even browsing your shop of horrors. Good luck with your pointless little displays of aggression--they're adorable. I'll be over here in civilization if you need me.
You say there's a lot of different builds and fighting styles in PvP. But every time I ever tried it, its the same thing. No one uses a ship they actually like. They use whatever wins faster. They don't use unique builds or different strategy's, its just gravity well and cannon rapid fire/ scatter volley/ A2B throughout the entire match. Those of us that want to have fun and try new things and use our favorite ships are already screwed before we even enter the queue. So, until there are strict limitations and rules set for PvP, I will continue UE to avoid it and advise others to do the same.
Not true, I've seen a vesta build completely destroy our team, today I played against a heavy leech build for example that was as strong as other builds, and these are just the first examples that come to mind.
I don't agree at all, in 3 months I have been able to get a new ship and half of my pvp gear, and this is while having a girlfriend, taking exams at school and sleeping enough at night. Also the best thing about STO is that there are no OP items, the high end items (fleet items and reputation items) are all at the same level more or less, and the ones you actually pay for aren't better than the fleet or reputation items, they are just different, so they fit better on very particular builds. So I do not agree at all with you. It is easy for a player with non end game gear (Mk XII exchange) to beat a top gear player if the first has experience. It just requires understanding of the game mechanics.
3 months is a long time for 1 half built ship w/this game in particular where most of the time is mind numbing PvE rinse and repeat mission grinds. Say another month to finish the ship out, that's 4 months for 1 toon and 1 ship fitting. Let's say a player wants alts w/different careers, that's over a years worth of grind time to get 3 toons (one for each profession) equiped w/one build. This assumes the Power Creep doesn't keep turning and outdating whatever it is you'd been grinding for your one build on one ship. Also, hate to break it to you, but you'll have less free time when you're out of school (though nothing wrong w/balanced lifestyle).
There was a time where a player could rush a toon to max level over a weekend, and unlock a free ship at max level, buy cheap gear on the exchange or even vendors and do decently in a PuG match (could even level via PvP). Experienced players actually didn't notice much of a drop off at all. A new player could learn basic mechanics and techniques over a weekend. Gear grind and power creep in general has changed that. A clicky console or built in power to ship isn't a "mechanic" it's unbalanced non-sense greedy geko has been introducing into the game since it was a sub based game.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
If I only cared about pve I wouldnt care what (and wont read) was posted in a PvP forum nor would I post in a PvP thread. Pve gets boring after running ise 10K times. PvP Is end game for me that's why I read the PvP forums.
Anyway good post op:)
Oh and just because a new pvper does good in kerrat 5vs1 doesn't make you a good pvper. Come to an arena and face a proper pvp team. Which is the real end game for pvper because you have to be coordinated as a team and builds to be successful.
PvP or grind, lets face it as much time as Cryptic have put into PvE content you run each mission what 3 times max before you never run it again.
STF are a necessity up until you get rep'ed out and all the shiny shiny gear you need.
Then what...
Well then you are forced into a very basic sandbox PvP set up I.E. Ker'rat or you join the ques, which considering the numbers of people that play this game daily, you could argue are just dead.
20-30 people in the PvP ques dose not a PvP community make.
They need to expand on PvP a lot in the next year or 2. Its the only end game that really matters and has been shown to keep population up in other games a lot longer then it would otherwise have been, without PvP content.
Well, I would do a review of PvP too if I could find it underneath the pile of something that looks like a disco ball, a smoke grenade, and every party popper all being activated at once in the same spot.
1 : No matchmaking system. Most games with an online pvp matches will have a matchmaker that measures your games and statistics, and puts you up against a roughly equal opponent.
I totally agree with that. Not all players which like pvp have the ambition to become one of the best players. Most of the players are in STO just for fun. It is like sports. You have very ambitious and talented people which are eager to reach the top level and others just having fun to fool around with other fools on low level and regularly some of these fools becoming ambitious and starts to play in the league and level up. E. g. millions of people are playing soccer, but only very few at high level. You can only increase the pvp player base with a kind of league system. The OP is kind of fatalistic, - it is like it is. But we are not dealing with a natural law here.
I personally like to play pvp, because all other parts of the game becoming boring if you do it again and again and again. However, I dont have the time nor the ambition to keep myself always updated, to optimize my builds straight forward and I dont want to spend the majority of my available playing time doing the same things again and again in order to collect high end equipment. Following the attitude of the OP I should stop playing pvp. I fear that following that attitude will keep the pvp player base small. In consequence there will be no reason for Cryptic to improve that part of the game and the player base will shrink too death. It seems that even currently the participation in the pvp queues are dropping down again because fun and rewards are quite limited.
Regards
Welan
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"any improvement requires change,
but a change is not necessarily an improvement"
One big problem with STO at launch was the lack of pve content for the Klingons. Because they had to launch with much of the game unfinished, KDF was relegated to a pvp only faction. Your character in the KDF could only advance in a few ways, most of them pvp. So from the beginning we concentrated all the pvp fans in one faction that competed with the other. In a "fair" fight the Feds would have won the war handily because they had nearly a 10-1 advantage in ships, but in reality the kdf ruled pvp for quite a while. Feds often didn't participate, and pvp became a marginalized activity. Such things are also noteworthy for not getting the attention of the devs, who put their time into things far more people would use. This continues to this day.
What the OP suggested is that new pvp players just accept the high financial cost of acquiring top end gear but that they also suck it up and be cannon fodder for weeks or months. Does that sound particularly appealing to anyone? One of the big drawbacks to pvp in an f2p game (especially PW games) is that they offer pay to win stuff and in the end only a small hardcore of people who keep buying the newer, more powerful stuff keep playing. Jumping on that train after the pvp community has whittled itself into the most skilled and best equipped over 4 years is an exercise in madness.
The answer is leaderboards, skill matching services, and probably a form of pvp where everyone is in ships of equivalent level of gear and stats. Nothing less will give pvp'ers the scope of players they want.
I used to be Shakkar with thousands of posts. My very identity was stolen from me so now I am originalshakkar, the original.
3 months is a long time for 1 half built ship w/this game in particular where most of the time is mind numbing PvE rinse and repeat mission grinds. Say another month to finish the ship out, that's 4 months for 1 toon and 1 ship fitting. Let's say a player wants alts w/different careers, that's over a years worth of grind time to get 3 toons (one for each profession) equiped w/one build. This assumes the Power Creep doesn't keep turning and outdating whatever it is you'd been grinding for your one build on one ship. Also, hate to break it to you, but you'll have less free time when you're out of school (though nothing wrong w/balanced lifestyle).
There was a time where a player could rush a toon to max level over a weekend, and unlock a free ship at max level, buy cheap gear on the exchange or even vendors and do decently in a PuG match (could even level via PvP). Experienced players actually didn't notice much of a drop off at all. A new player could learn basic mechanics and techniques over a weekend. Gear grind and power creep in general has changed that. A clicky console or built in power to ship isn't a "mechanic" it's unbalanced non-sense greedy geko has been introducing into the game since it was a sub based game.
Hey I totally agree with you, but 4 months is not too much considering that it's the last build you'll ever make maybe. I mean let's say yes, you do make 3 builds, then it takes a year, but what after that? The game might get boring, and plus, STO isn't bad at all, you can still reach 50 in a week, and in most other games (WoW, Metin 2, NavyField, WarThunder, etc...) it can even take a year to max out a character. That's why STO is the only game I have been able to almost finish!
Hey I totally agree with you, but 4 months is not too much considering that it's the last build you'll ever make maybe. I mean let's say yes, you do make 3 builds, then it takes a year, but what after that? The game might get boring, and plus, STO isn't bad at all, you can still reach 50 in a week, and in most other games (WoW, Metin 2, NavyField, WarThunder, etc...) it can even take a year to max out a character. That's why STO is the only game I have been able to almost finish!
That's the thing, max level is basically the same as saying "Now you can start your grinding" and isn't nearly the same endpoint it used to be. Trust me when I say as a former Raider pilot the game didn't get boring b/c using a particular build did. It was better when the difference between high and and average gear was say ~10% in effectiveness (probably an over estimate on my part) and different builds w/different play styles for different careers could be tried out w/o needing to grind for months on end.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
All in all the PVP community in this game sends me a lot of mixed messages. I've tried to make a good faith effort to learn through observation and inquiry in game, but invariably every experience I've had venturing into a PVP zone or queue has involved me getting completely trashed (sometimes before my computer's even fully loaded me into the instance) followed by a litany of abuse and epithets over zone chat. Questions are angrily and condescendingly dismissed, and heaven help me if I ever mention that I'm inexperienced and trying to learn.
And despite all this I find my way to this forum and discover a more helpful stripe of community. I'm still not over that insane barrier of entry and haven't figured out yet how to anticipate and survive those 80k Elachi Disruptor blasts to my back arc. My question though is, where are all these potentially helpful people in game? Does the log in screen flip some kind of minimum scrappiness switch? Or am I just having incredibly bad luck in finding instances not populated entirely by toxic individuals?
Random question: What the heck is a HOBO? I refuse to accept at face value that it's just a euphemism for "Your mom"
I personally have never met people in the queues that trash any one else.
I'd like to think I am in both communities now, maybe a bit on the outskirts for pvp. If you want some one on one advice, hit me up @acceleron is the handle.
I've noticed that you have to be fairly good for other players to notice you and become friends. And that those random 1v1s in esd could actually be a power player looking to blow off some steam...it's actually how I met a power player
I always grumble to myself when I see a "poor ship" on my team or my opponents. They are a liability. And I hope the healer on my team is on the epic side if things...other wise it's "target locked and popped." Defiant, kumaris, and obviously other overly tactical heavy ships prove to be to squishy with little to no support skills...
You don't need to be flying a bug or a lockbox ship to make an impact in pvp, but you do need something that can support counter skills and offensive skills.
I don't really think gear is the problem. That was a valid concern maybe 3+ seasons ago when you had to spend hundreds of millions of EC on weapons and consoles and do STFs till you're blue in the face just to get a few good random drops, but now you can just do a little PvE grind and get the best gear in the game. Most of my ships are equipped with all fleet gear / rep gear stuff-- gear that anyone can get in a fairly short amount of time just by playing the game.
3 months is a long time for 1 half built ship w/this game in particular where most of the time is mind numbing PvE rinse and repeat mission grinds. Say another month to finish the ship out, that's 4 months for 1 toon and 1 ship fitting. Let's say a player wants alts w/different careers, that's over a years worth of grind time to get 3 toons (one for each profession) equiped w/one build. This assumes the Power Creep doesn't keep turning and outdating whatever it is you'd been grinding for your one build on one ship. Also, hate to break it to you, but you'll have less free time when you're out of school (though nothing wrong w/balanced lifestyle).
This is simply not true. After I hit level 50 I was PvPing within 2 weeks on a competent level. I got Tier two in the Space Reps for the passives, bought a bit of fleet gear, did an Episode mission or 3 for the rest of my gear, and I was on my way.
There was a time where a player could rush a toon to max level over a weekend, and unlock a free ship at max level, buy cheap gear on the exchange or even vendors and do decently in a PuG match (could even level via PvP). Experienced players actually didn't notice much of a drop off at all. A new player could learn basic mechanics and techniques over a weekend. Gear grind and power creep in general has changed that. A clicky console or built in power to ship isn't a "mechanic" it's unbalanced non-sense greedy geko has been introducing into the game since it was a sub based game.
Also, not true. Before, it costs millions and millions of EC to be able to have competitive gear. Before the rep/fleet base system, if you thought you could ever go into a game with vendor trash and compete against someone near the same level as yourself with purple MK XII's all-around with [Acc]x3's you're sorely mistaken.
The fact of the matter is that PvP entry has never been lower, at least gear-wise. But PvP is not all about gear. You also have to use your brain and teamwork, which most of the people that complain about PvP lack. You can't just hop into PvP with a willy-nilly build solely focused on your own survival and think that you're actually accomplishing anything, and then when you still die call hax and throw a tantrum about how unfair PvP is.
This is simply not true. After I hit level 50 I was PvPing within 2 weeks on a competent level. I got Tier two in the Space Reps for the passives, bought a bit of fleet gear, did an Episode mission or 3 for the rest of my gear, and I was on my way.
I was using the time another player who is committing a causal amount of time to the game. I didn't make it up.
Also, not true. Before, it costs millions and millions of EC to be able to have competitive gear. Before the rep/fleet base system, if you thought you could ever go into a game with vendor trash and compete against someone near the same level as yourself with purple MK XII's all-around with [Acc]x3's you're sorely mistaken.
The fact of the matter is that PvP entry has never been lower, at least gear-wise. But PvP is not all about gear. You also have to use your brain and teamwork, which most of the people that complain about PvP lack. You can't just hop into PvP with a willy-nilly build solely focused on your own survival and think that you're actually accomplishing anything, and then when you still die call hax and throw a tantrum about how unfair PvP is.
Before I could max a toon's level on a weekend, used common weapons and consoles and storyline deflector, engines, and shields and was much more able to compete then if I were to do the same now. For all the talk about needing accx3 proc it just wasn't true a well timed TB would do. The damage difference between a mk x white and purples was hardly worth mentioning. There was no Doffs, was no Rep, the Borg set was gotten on just by playing 3 missions and Aegis was craftable w/o needing dilithium.
After season 5 it wasn't all that bad either. Most Doffs were balanced and there was a Dev that was willing to adjust/fix the ones that were. In the beginning there wasn't much in terms of lotto doffs either.
The STFs were easier to grind in terms of most drops and not time gated. I have toons w/multiple sets of MKXII borg weapon layouts. The faction sets had minimal difference between Mark XI and Mark XII, so even if you were unlucky it wasn't a big difference.
In the end the % difference between common and high end gear was much lower. That's basic math.
Seriously, what were you spending millions of dilithium/ECs on?
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
That's the thing, max level is basically the same as saying "Now you can start your grinding" and isn't nearly the same endpoint it used to be. Trust me when I say as a former Raider pilot the game didn't get boring b/c using a particular build did. It was better when the difference between high and and average gear was say ~10% in effectiveness (probably an over estimate on my part) and different builds w/different play styles for different careers could be tried out w/o needing to grind for months on end.
It actually still is only 20%, the only difference is that people have actually been given more freedom, and have been able to create different builds thanks to new duty officers and new items... The only build that is over 20% more powerful is the critical chance build. In any case if a player knows what he's doing, it's not a problem.
It actually still is only 20%, the only difference is that people have actually been given more freedom, and have been able to create different builds thanks to new duty officers and new items... The only build that is over 20% more powerful is the critical chance build. In any case if a player knows what he's doing, it's not a problem.
What are you basing this on?
There's no way a fleet shield is only 20% more effective than common shields given the % reduction proc, higher base HP, and that's before counting the new reps. Even Dyson shield has basically a proc base RSP & resist boost.
Don't even get me started on the effectiveness of web mines and undine torps compared to cronts and trics.
Resist & Turn boosting consoles?
Higher Sci Spec consoles w/Built in repair procs?
Weapons w/multiple types of RNG procs, higher base, debuffs, combined w/doffs etc.
All kinds of power level boosting creep.
Stop making stuff up. There is no way common or even green/blue gear compares to that stuff. There was a time it did, it's long gone. There's no way a new toon w/all common/green/blue gear and base if any doffs is going to come close to the same type of build filled w/Rep & Fleet gear.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
one thing i don't understand from pve'ers is their complaint that there is way to much needed gear to be compeditive in pvp, when all they do is missions that earn them marks for said gear, wile pvp'ers have to divide their time.
yada yada yada, power creep this, power creep that...
So you're complaining that a MMO game progresses over time, adding new content, equipment, and strategic possibilities? Cryptic gets a lot TRIBBLE for not adding new PvP content, and I agree, it needs a better structure from the ground up, like match-making and a separate team and solo ranking system of some kind, even if its invisible at lower ranks so that the Fed cupcakes don't their poor little feelings hurt.
BUT, every new update adds new PvP content. A lot of what they release is useless in PvE and it's specifically geared towards PvP, for better or worse. They can't hit a home-run with every new doff, console, weapon, ship, modifier, trait, etc., but in the end they're at least trying (well, not really the end cause they're still adding new stuff all the time). When it comes down to it, they've added a lot of cool features and for as much stuff as they've added, the game is at a pretty good balance point. If something is super OP, they will adjust it in time.
Would you rather the game stagnate and become stale, with no meta-progression and everyone using the same strategies for years on end? What's crazy is that I know some people would actually prefer this, and it just makes zero sense to me, especially within the framework of an active MMO game.
I mentioned the game is at a good balance point, and one way you can tell that is because the cupcakes are literally complaining about everything and anything, especially stuff that kills them. You PvP for a week and you will hear complaints about FaW, BO, DHC escorts, beam boats, Vapers, too fast turn-rate, too tanky ships, too much DPS, too many heals, too easy to die, too much resistance, too hard to detect, too easy to snoop, OP torpedoes, not enough shield damage from torpedoes, too many holds, too easy to escape holds, ramming speed, fireworks, photonic fleet too OP (I kid you not), too much teamwork, OP [insert random bridge officer ability here], using science magics....phew, I'm worn out, but I'm sure I missed at least 20 other complaints.
Logic dictates if people complain about everything and there is no singular outstanding complaint, then the game is actually balanced according to the opinions and expressions of the cupcakes across the world. Live short, spend your EC, and explode in a fiery blaze of glory that destroys your entire team with a super-critted warpcore breach! Q'pla!
one thing i don't understand from pve'ers is their complaint that there is way to much needed gear to be compeditive in pvp, when all they do is missions that earn them marks for said gear, wile pvp'ers have to divide their time.
Don't disagree, but I think there's a distinction that should be pointed out between the exploration (I know), Crafting (I know again), Storyline mission playing, RPing, Foundry type PvEer and the min/max STF/Rep grinder. Since pretty much all types other than the STF/Rep grinding forms of PvE require so little, there's probably little interest in acquiring the Rep/STF gear.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
So you're complaining that a MMO game progresses over time, adding new content, equipment, and strategic possibilities? Cryptic gets a lot TRIBBLE for not adding new PvP content, and I agree, it needs a better structure from the ground up, like match-making and a separate team and solo ranking system of some kind, even if its invisible at lower ranks so that the Fed cupcakes don't their poor little feelings hurt.
BUT, every new update adds new PvP content. A lot of what they release is useless in PvE and it's specifically geared towards PvP, for better or worse. They can't hit a home-run with every new doff, console, weapon, ship, modifier, trait, etc., but in the end they're at least trying (well, not really the end cause they're still adding new stuff all the time). When it comes down to it, they've added a lot of cool features and for as much stuff as they've added, the game is at a pretty good balance point. If something is super OP, they will adjust it in time.
Would you rather the game stagnate and become stale, with no meta-progression and everyone using the same strategies for years on end? What's crazy is that I know some people would actually prefer this, and it just makes zero sense to me, especially within the framework of an active MMO game.
I mentioned the game is at a good balance point, and one way you can tell that is because the cupcakes are literally complaining about everything and anything, especially stuff that kills them. You PvP for a week and you will hear complaints about FaW, BO, DHC escorts, beam boats, Vapers, too fast turn-rate, too tanky ships, too much DPS, too many heals, too easy to die, too much resistance, too hard to detect, too easy to snoop, OP torpedoes, not enough shield damage from torpedoes, too many holds, too easy to escape holds, ramming speed, fireworks, photonic fleet too OP (I kid you not), too much teamwork, OP [insert random bridge officer ability here], using science magics....phew, I'm worn out, but I'm sure I missed at least 20 other complaints.
Logic dictates if people complain about everything and there is no singular outstanding complaint, then the game is actually balanced according to the opinions and expressions of the cupcakes across the world. Live short, spend your EC, and explode in a fiery blaze of glory that destroys your entire team with a super-critted warpcore breach! Q'pla!
I prefer the EvE model of MMOs, ie fixed niche ships for variety while constantly tweaking balances. I also prefer they do things like have tourneys for "Arena" style PvP and have basically an open sandbox for the rest where resources are up for grabs. I could care less about rankings.
That said power creep for sale isn't game progression. Even if it wasn't for sale I wouldn't like it if there was no effort to balance it. It becomes a big mess w/many legitimate reasons to complain.
"Logic dictates if people complain about everything and there is no singular outstanding complaint, then the game is actually balanced according to the opinions and expressions of the cupcakes across the world"
That's not correct. There's a big difference to having a large well thought out variety of abilities to choose from each w/their drawbacks/counters and throwing a ton of TRIBBLE w/o rhyme or reason for the only purpose of generating revenue against the wall.
Nor does it address the issue of the amount of time it takes to get a toon to a place where it's on a somewhat level playing field as others compared to what it used to be.
"BUT, every new update adds new PvP content. A lot of what they release is useless in PvE and it's specifically geared towards PvP, for better or worse."
We have very different definitions of what "content" means.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Comments
Would you be up for a 1v1 by chance. Would love to see that timing precision in person
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
you mean the rest of us mere morals vs elitists? has there been any other type of debate on pvp in the past on different games over the years other then this arguement that holds any real weight? im not going on about balance, just fun, casual and hardcore mentalities.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Not true at all, I have watched every single star trek except DS9, and I can assure you that a Captain that wants to keep his crew alive needs practice! What better place to practice if not the holodeck? If you pay attention, before each PvP match there is a screen saying that it's a simulation of real combat.
In other words... You just don't like pvp.
I don't agree at all, in 3 months I have been able to get a new ship and half of my pvp gear, and this is while having a girlfriend, taking exams at school and sleeping enough at night. Also the best thing about STO is that there are no OP items, the high end items (fleet items and reputation items) are all at the same level more or less, and the ones you actually pay for aren't better than the fleet or reputation items, they are just different, so they fit better on very particular builds. So I do not agree at all with you. It is easy for a player with non end game gear (Mk XII exchange) to beat a top gear player if the first has experience. It just requires understanding of the game mechanics.
1 : No matchmaking system. Most games with an online pvp matches will have a matchmaker that measures your games and statistics, and puts you up against a roughly equal opponent.
2 : Too heavy gear requirements. Yes, it is all about a lot of very hard to get gear.
Mind, with STO pvp having few players ,matchmaking may not work properly, but it is a sound theory.
Of course...seeing what Cryptic did to Crafting, you guys should feel lucky they are ignoring pvp completely.
Poster 7, what's up?
Too bad we can't make PVP maps in the foundry, that would REALLY help.
Not true, I've seen a vesta build completely destroy our team, today I played against a heavy leech build for example that was as strong as other builds, and these are just the first examples that come to mind.
3 months is a long time for 1 half built ship w/this game in particular where most of the time is mind numbing PvE rinse and repeat mission grinds. Say another month to finish the ship out, that's 4 months for 1 toon and 1 ship fitting. Let's say a player wants alts w/different careers, that's over a years worth of grind time to get 3 toons (one for each profession) equiped w/one build. This assumes the Power Creep doesn't keep turning and outdating whatever it is you'd been grinding for your one build on one ship. Also, hate to break it to you, but you'll have less free time when you're out of school (though nothing wrong w/balanced lifestyle).
There was a time where a player could rush a toon to max level over a weekend, and unlock a free ship at max level, buy cheap gear on the exchange or even vendors and do decently in a PuG match (could even level via PvP). Experienced players actually didn't notice much of a drop off at all. A new player could learn basic mechanics and techniques over a weekend. Gear grind and power creep in general has changed that. A clicky console or built in power to ship isn't a "mechanic" it's unbalanced non-sense greedy geko has been introducing into the game since it was a sub based game.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Anyway good post op:)
Oh and just because a new pvper does good in kerrat 5vs1 doesn't make you a good pvper. Come to an arena and face a proper pvp team. Which is the real end game for pvper because you have to be coordinated as a team and builds to be successful.
STF are a necessity up until you get rep'ed out and all the shiny shiny gear you need.
Then what...
Well then you are forced into a very basic sandbox PvP set up I.E. Ker'rat or you join the ques, which considering the numbers of people that play this game daily, you could argue are just dead.
20-30 people in the PvP ques dose not a PvP community make.
They need to expand on PvP a lot in the next year or 2. Its the only end game that really matters and has been shown to keep population up in other games a lot longer then it would otherwise have been, without PvP content.
D,
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Please keep the QQ to a minimum.
>>>PUNISH THE FEDs<<<
>>>Positive Feedback from a PvE HERO<<<
I totally agree with that. Not all players which like pvp have the ambition to become one of the best players. Most of the players are in STO just for fun. It is like sports. You have very ambitious and talented people which are eager to reach the top level and others just having fun to fool around with other fools on low level and regularly some of these fools becoming ambitious and starts to play in the league and level up. E. g. millions of people are playing soccer, but only very few at high level. You can only increase the pvp player base with a kind of league system. The OP is kind of fatalistic, - it is like it is. But we are not dealing with a natural law here.
I personally like to play pvp, because all other parts of the game becoming boring if you do it again and again and again. However, I dont have the time nor the ambition to keep myself always updated, to optimize my builds straight forward and I dont want to spend the majority of my available playing time doing the same things again and again in order to collect high end equipment. Following the attitude of the OP I should stop playing pvp. I fear that following that attitude will keep the pvp player base small. In consequence there will be no reason for Cryptic to improve that part of the game and the player base will shrink too death. It seems that even currently the participation in the pvp queues are dropping down again because fun and rewards are quite limited.
Regards
Welan
"any improvement requires change,
but a change is not necessarily an improvement"
What the OP suggested is that new pvp players just accept the high financial cost of acquiring top end gear but that they also suck it up and be cannon fodder for weeks or months. Does that sound particularly appealing to anyone? One of the big drawbacks to pvp in an f2p game (especially PW games) is that they offer pay to win stuff and in the end only a small hardcore of people who keep buying the newer, more powerful stuff keep playing. Jumping on that train after the pvp community has whittled itself into the most skilled and best equipped over 4 years is an exercise in madness.
The answer is leaderboards, skill matching services, and probably a form of pvp where everyone is in ships of equivalent level of gear and stats. Nothing less will give pvp'ers the scope of players they want.
Hey I totally agree with you, but 4 months is not too much considering that it's the last build you'll ever make maybe. I mean let's say yes, you do make 3 builds, then it takes a year, but what after that? The game might get boring, and plus, STO isn't bad at all, you can still reach 50 in a week, and in most other games (WoW, Metin 2, NavyField, WarThunder, etc...) it can even take a year to max out a character. That's why STO is the only game I have been able to almost finish!
That's the thing, max level is basically the same as saying "Now you can start your grinding" and isn't nearly the same endpoint it used to be. Trust me when I say as a former Raider pilot the game didn't get boring b/c using a particular build did. It was better when the difference between high and and average gear was say ~10% in effectiveness (probably an over estimate on my part) and different builds w/different play styles for different careers could be tried out w/o needing to grind for months on end.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
And despite all this I find my way to this forum and discover a more helpful stripe of community. I'm still not over that insane barrier of entry and haven't figured out yet how to anticipate and survive those 80k Elachi Disruptor blasts to my back arc. My question though is, where are all these potentially helpful people in game? Does the log in screen flip some kind of minimum scrappiness switch? Or am I just having incredibly bad luck in finding instances not populated entirely by toxic individuals?
Random question: What the heck is a HOBO? I refuse to accept at face value that it's just a euphemism for "Your mom"
I'd like to think I am in both communities now, maybe a bit on the outskirts for pvp. If you want some one on one advice, hit me up @acceleron is the handle.
I've noticed that you have to be fairly good for other players to notice you and become friends. And that those random 1v1s in esd could actually be a power player looking to blow off some steam...it's actually how I met a power player
I always grumble to myself when I see a "poor ship" on my team or my opponents. They are a liability. And I hope the healer on my team is on the epic side if things...other wise it's "target locked and popped." Defiant, kumaris, and obviously other overly tactical heavy ships prove to be to squishy with little to no support skills...
You don't need to be flying a bug or a lockbox ship to make an impact in pvp, but you do need something that can support counter skills and offensive skills.
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
@DevolvedOne
This is simply not true. After I hit level 50 I was PvPing within 2 weeks on a competent level. I got Tier two in the Space Reps for the passives, bought a bit of fleet gear, did an Episode mission or 3 for the rest of my gear, and I was on my way.
Also, not true. Before, it costs millions and millions of EC to be able to have competitive gear. Before the rep/fleet base system, if you thought you could ever go into a game with vendor trash and compete against someone near the same level as yourself with purple MK XII's all-around with [Acc]x3's you're sorely mistaken.
The fact of the matter is that PvP entry has never been lower, at least gear-wise. But PvP is not all about gear. You also have to use your brain and teamwork, which most of the people that complain about PvP lack. You can't just hop into PvP with a willy-nilly build solely focused on your own survival and think that you're actually accomplishing anything, and then when you still die call hax and throw a tantrum about how unfair PvP is.
@DevolvedOne
I was using the time another player who is committing a causal amount of time to the game. I didn't make it up.
Before I could max a toon's level on a weekend, used common weapons and consoles and storyline deflector, engines, and shields and was much more able to compete then if I were to do the same now. For all the talk about needing accx3 proc it just wasn't true a well timed TB would do. The damage difference between a mk x white and purples was hardly worth mentioning. There was no Doffs, was no Rep, the Borg set was gotten on just by playing 3 missions and Aegis was craftable w/o needing dilithium.
After season 5 it wasn't all that bad either. Most Doffs were balanced and there was a Dev that was willing to adjust/fix the ones that were. In the beginning there wasn't much in terms of lotto doffs either.
The STFs were easier to grind in terms of most drops and not time gated. I have toons w/multiple sets of MKXII borg weapon layouts. The faction sets had minimal difference between Mark XI and Mark XII, so even if you were unlucky it wasn't a big difference.
In the end the % difference between common and high end gear was much lower. That's basic math.
Seriously, what were you spending millions of dilithium/ECs on?
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
It actually still is only 20%, the only difference is that people have actually been given more freedom, and have been able to create different builds thanks to new duty officers and new items... The only build that is over 20% more powerful is the critical chance build. In any case if a player knows what he's doing, it's not a problem.
What are you basing this on?
There's no way a fleet shield is only 20% more effective than common shields given the % reduction proc, higher base HP, and that's before counting the new reps. Even Dyson shield has basically a proc base RSP & resist boost.
Don't even get me started on the effectiveness of web mines and undine torps compared to cronts and trics.
Resist & Turn boosting consoles?
Higher Sci Spec consoles w/Built in repair procs?
Weapons w/multiple types of RNG procs, higher base, debuffs, combined w/doffs etc.
All kinds of power level boosting creep.
Stop making stuff up. There is no way common or even green/blue gear compares to that stuff. There was a time it did, it's long gone. There's no way a new toon w/all common/green/blue gear and base if any doffs is going to come close to the same type of build filled w/Rep & Fleet gear.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
BUT, every new update adds new PvP content. A lot of what they release is useless in PvE and it's specifically geared towards PvP, for better or worse. They can't hit a home-run with every new doff, console, weapon, ship, modifier, trait, etc., but in the end they're at least trying (well, not really the end cause they're still adding new stuff all the time). When it comes down to it, they've added a lot of cool features and for as much stuff as they've added, the game is at a pretty good balance point. If something is super OP, they will adjust it in time.
Would you rather the game stagnate and become stale, with no meta-progression and everyone using the same strategies for years on end? What's crazy is that I know some people would actually prefer this, and it just makes zero sense to me, especially within the framework of an active MMO game.
I mentioned the game is at a good balance point, and one way you can tell that is because the cupcakes are literally complaining about everything and anything, especially stuff that kills them. You PvP for a week and you will hear complaints about FaW, BO, DHC escorts, beam boats, Vapers, too fast turn-rate, too tanky ships, too much DPS, too many heals, too easy to die, too much resistance, too hard to detect, too easy to snoop, OP torpedoes, not enough shield damage from torpedoes, too many holds, too easy to escape holds, ramming speed, fireworks, photonic fleet too OP (I kid you not), too much teamwork, OP [insert random bridge officer ability here], using science magics....phew, I'm worn out, but I'm sure I missed at least 20 other complaints.
Logic dictates if people complain about everything and there is no singular outstanding complaint, then the game is actually balanced according to the opinions and expressions of the cupcakes across the world. Live short, spend your EC, and explode in a fiery blaze of glory that destroys your entire team with a super-critted warpcore breach! Q'pla!
@DevolvedOne
Don't disagree, but I think there's a distinction that should be pointed out between the exploration (I know), Crafting (I know again), Storyline mission playing, RPing, Foundry type PvEer and the min/max STF/Rep grinder. Since pretty much all types other than the STF/Rep grinding forms of PvE require so little, there's probably little interest in acquiring the Rep/STF gear.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
I prefer the EvE model of MMOs, ie fixed niche ships for variety while constantly tweaking balances. I also prefer they do things like have tourneys for "Arena" style PvP and have basically an open sandbox for the rest where resources are up for grabs. I could care less about rankings.
That said power creep for sale isn't game progression. Even if it wasn't for sale I wouldn't like it if there was no effort to balance it. It becomes a big mess w/many legitimate reasons to complain.
"Logic dictates if people complain about everything and there is no singular outstanding complaint, then the game is actually balanced according to the opinions and expressions of the cupcakes across the world"
That's not correct. There's a big difference to having a large well thought out variety of abilities to choose from each w/their drawbacks/counters and throwing a ton of TRIBBLE w/o rhyme or reason for the only purpose of generating revenue against the wall.
Nor does it address the issue of the amount of time it takes to get a toon to a place where it's on a somewhat level playing field as others compared to what it used to be.
"BUT, every new update adds new PvP content. A lot of what they release is useless in PvE and it's specifically geared towards PvP, for better or worse."
We have very different definitions of what "content" means.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter