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Fleets a Dissater
killelr123
Member Posts: 54 Arc User
I'm concerned that the current Fleet system is a disaster.
The problem stems from the ability of players to acquire all the benefits of being in a fleet without actually participating in one.
By simply joining a fleet that they do not intend to stay in or contribute to (often for an EC fee of many millions), they acquire all the best gear and Fleet Ships. This seemingly innocent "hack" of the Fleet system is having DIRE repercussions for the overall Fleet System, and the game.
As the creator of a large and formerly active Fleet, I know how damaging this trick is to the Fleet system and the game in general.
Four months ago, my Fleet would have 15 to 30 active members online at any time (500 members total). The Members were engaged in the rank system, and enthusiastic about Fleet Projects. We had completed Tier IV Starbase, Tier III Embassy, Tier III Dil Mine upgrades, etc.
Then, one of the players discovered a Fleet (and private chat channel) that would let him acquire top tier gear in every category for an EC payement. He showed up one day with a Tier V Fleet Ship, and started posting the specs from his new top-tier consoles in Fleet Chat.
Within a couple week, contributions to Fleet Projects had stopped. All the active players soon acquired the top tier gear in the same way.
The Fleet was active for another month or so, as players experimented with their new gear. Then, over a couple months, it DIED. Nobody was interested in completing Fleet Projects (and why would the be?). And because they had all achieved the final state of top gear, the game lost its appeal. Most of the challenge and reward had been removed. Why bust your TRIBBLE trying to make Fleet Captain, when you can get a Tier V Fleet Ship in 5 minutes?
At least twenty formerly very active players who had all been playing for a year or longer have not logged on in three months or more. They are gone. And its painfully clear that the Fleet Hack is the main, if not only, reason.
THIS HACK OF THE FLEET SYSTEM NEEDS TO BE FIXED
The current "hackability" of the Fleet system is widely used. You can't sit at ESD for more than a few minutes without someone spamming the zone for access to, say, a TIER III Dil mine. Private chat networks dedicated to this purpose are thriving.
STO needs to fix this. Here is a simple code-based fix:
1. Change the Fleet recruitment system so that when someone joins a Fleet, they cannot be removed for a specific period of time, say a week.
2. Change the Fleet Rank system so that when someone acquires a Fleet Rank, they cannot change rank (higher or lower) for the same amount of time.
3. Change the Fleet Rank Permission system so that the "Purchase From Provisioned Fleet Stores" permission cannot be changed within 1 week of the LAST PERSON being promoted OR demoted to that rank.
(Note that even preventing changes for, say, 8 hours would help immensely, see below).
These changes would likely eliminate the hack almost completely.
Currently, the Fleets that sell their provisions let the purchaser join, and a Fleet member accompanies the purchaser to the relevant Fleet Store. Then, either the purchaser is briefly elevated to a rank that has Store Permissions, or the permissions for Ensign are briefly changed to allow the purchaser to buy the item. Once the purchase is complete, the permission are reset, and/or the purchaser is kicked from the Fleet.
As you can see, if my suggestions were implemented, in order to continue selling Fleet Gear, an offending Fleet would be required to give the purchaser unlimited access to its fleet provisions for a full week ( because they couldn't kick, change rank, or change permissions once they had been instituted). Continuing to sell Fleet Provisions would prove mostly unfeasible, as any Fleet that tried to continue with the old system would find its Fleet Stores empty in short order as the odd unscrupulous purchaser bought up everything he wanted.
Of course, the hack might continue, but the fee for access would necessarily be much higher (in the hundreds of millions of EC), as the offending Fleet would have to assume that any purchaser was going to use dozens of Fleet Store provisions.
I think its important to emphasize to the STO developers just HOW MUCH THIS HACK OF THE FLEET SYSTEM IS HURTING THE GAME. STO is likely losing lots of players, and thus revenue, by letting this continue.
More importantly, the Hack is fundamentally sabotaging what is otherwise an ingenious and fun Fleet System. But in its current state, it is only a shadow of what it should be. As a Fleet leader, I'm left with recruiting new players, and hoping they don't find out about the hack too soon.
I expect lots of complaints from people who use the hack, and lots of support from people trying to build and run Fleets.
The problem stems from the ability of players to acquire all the benefits of being in a fleet without actually participating in one.
By simply joining a fleet that they do not intend to stay in or contribute to (often for an EC fee of many millions), they acquire all the best gear and Fleet Ships. This seemingly innocent "hack" of the Fleet system is having DIRE repercussions for the overall Fleet System, and the game.
As the creator of a large and formerly active Fleet, I know how damaging this trick is to the Fleet system and the game in general.
Four months ago, my Fleet would have 15 to 30 active members online at any time (500 members total). The Members were engaged in the rank system, and enthusiastic about Fleet Projects. We had completed Tier IV Starbase, Tier III Embassy, Tier III Dil Mine upgrades, etc.
Then, one of the players discovered a Fleet (and private chat channel) that would let him acquire top tier gear in every category for an EC payement. He showed up one day with a Tier V Fleet Ship, and started posting the specs from his new top-tier consoles in Fleet Chat.
Within a couple week, contributions to Fleet Projects had stopped. All the active players soon acquired the top tier gear in the same way.
The Fleet was active for another month or so, as players experimented with their new gear. Then, over a couple months, it DIED. Nobody was interested in completing Fleet Projects (and why would the be?). And because they had all achieved the final state of top gear, the game lost its appeal. Most of the challenge and reward had been removed. Why bust your TRIBBLE trying to make Fleet Captain, when you can get a Tier V Fleet Ship in 5 minutes?
At least twenty formerly very active players who had all been playing for a year or longer have not logged on in three months or more. They are gone. And its painfully clear that the Fleet Hack is the main, if not only, reason.
THIS HACK OF THE FLEET SYSTEM NEEDS TO BE FIXED
The current "hackability" of the Fleet system is widely used. You can't sit at ESD for more than a few minutes without someone spamming the zone for access to, say, a TIER III Dil mine. Private chat networks dedicated to this purpose are thriving.
STO needs to fix this. Here is a simple code-based fix:
1. Change the Fleet recruitment system so that when someone joins a Fleet, they cannot be removed for a specific period of time, say a week.
2. Change the Fleet Rank system so that when someone acquires a Fleet Rank, they cannot change rank (higher or lower) for the same amount of time.
3. Change the Fleet Rank Permission system so that the "Purchase From Provisioned Fleet Stores" permission cannot be changed within 1 week of the LAST PERSON being promoted OR demoted to that rank.
(Note that even preventing changes for, say, 8 hours would help immensely, see below).
These changes would likely eliminate the hack almost completely.
Currently, the Fleets that sell their provisions let the purchaser join, and a Fleet member accompanies the purchaser to the relevant Fleet Store. Then, either the purchaser is briefly elevated to a rank that has Store Permissions, or the permissions for Ensign are briefly changed to allow the purchaser to buy the item. Once the purchase is complete, the permission are reset, and/or the purchaser is kicked from the Fleet.
As you can see, if my suggestions were implemented, in order to continue selling Fleet Gear, an offending Fleet would be required to give the purchaser unlimited access to its fleet provisions for a full week ( because they couldn't kick, change rank, or change permissions once they had been instituted). Continuing to sell Fleet Provisions would prove mostly unfeasible, as any Fleet that tried to continue with the old system would find its Fleet Stores empty in short order as the odd unscrupulous purchaser bought up everything he wanted.
Of course, the hack might continue, but the fee for access would necessarily be much higher (in the hundreds of millions of EC), as the offending Fleet would have to assume that any purchaser was going to use dozens of Fleet Store provisions.
I think its important to emphasize to the STO developers just HOW MUCH THIS HACK OF THE FLEET SYSTEM IS HURTING THE GAME. STO is likely losing lots of players, and thus revenue, by letting this continue.
More importantly, the Hack is fundamentally sabotaging what is otherwise an ingenious and fun Fleet System. But in its current state, it is only a shadow of what it should be. As a Fleet leader, I'm left with recruiting new players, and hoping they don't find out about the hack too soon.
I expect lots of complaints from people who use the hack, and lots of support from people trying to build and run Fleets.
Post edited by killelr123 on
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The tears will flow but it's what's needed...
New fleets would never happen though...unless old holdings get some sort of fast track system.
Ya...
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
Hi. I am a leader of a small fleet. Last year we learned of a channel we could use to gain free access to top level fleet gear. There was some concern then that it would stall our progress, but we promoted use of this channel anyway. Just over a month ago, we reached Tier 5 with the starbase. The problem is not with gaining early access. In fact, our fleet benefited from it until we unlocked things for ourselves, and continue to use it for the things we have not yet unlocked.
The problem is not the free access to fleet gear, it's convincing the members that there is satisfaction in also building and completing their own starbase, mine, embassy, etc. This is especially hard, not because of access to the fleet gear, but because members tended to burn out with the other grinds Cryptic gives us.
We succeeded, and you will too if you keep at it, but the problem is the frequent new grinds, not the access to better fleet gear.
STO Resources: <Ship Comparison - All Tiers + Small Craft + Hangar Pets> <Damage Resistance>
<R&D + Upgrade Costs> <Duty Officer Finder> <Suliban Doff Reqs> <Fleet Costs> <Rep Costs>
<Keybind Tour the Galaxy> <Fleet / Armada Management> <Currency Exchange> <Other STO Links>
Why would your members donate million upon millions of dil to a starbase that has zero value? Answer: They wouldn't, no matter your magical "get them to see the value" bull****.
Nice try.
And BTW I've been at it for two years.
STO Resources: <Ship Comparison - All Tiers + Small Craft + Hangar Pets> <Damage Resistance>
<R&D + Upgrade Costs> <Duty Officer Finder> <Suliban Doff Reqs> <Fleet Costs> <Rep Costs>
<Keybind Tour the Galaxy> <Fleet / Armada Management> <Currency Exchange> <Other STO Links>
So you guys just spend all your dil to provision your shipyard etc. then give it away?
If that's true, its a nice gesture.
But its still destroying the fleet system, and the game in general. Allowing someone who just Made VA after a week of play to get all the best gear is a very very bad idea. Most will lose interest in the game very quickly if the top rewards are that easy to get.
Our main goal on giving provisions out for free is it allows us to slot another provision project. We want to keep donating, it gives us the ability to save up large amounts of fleet credits for any number of types of uses.
If fleets want to charge for access/provisions, etc it doesn't matter to me, it is their fleet, they put their time and resources to build it up.
After all, it is just a game.
R.I.P. Leonard Nimoy
How about no.
As an officer in a very large fleet (three T5 bases, 600+ members) (which doesn't sell access), I would like tell you that your ideas are bad and you should feel bad.
I admire those of you that apparently provide everyone with your Fleet Provisions. Unfortunately, I don't think your actually doing them a favor, but rather robbing them of much of the fun (and social aspect) of the game. Sort of like the parents giving their kid a million dollars a month, and the kid never makes anything of themselves.
As a preliminary matter, I would note that the main effect of your actions is to stop people from contributing DIL to Fleet Projects, at least in part because they need to save it to buy your Fleet Provisions. They do in fact still contribute EC and Fleet Marks. But once those are full, the contributions stop. (I have a que full of projects waiting for DIL.) I actually had a member tell me the other day that he quit our Fleet for a few hours to go earn Fleet Credits in another Fleet, because he needed to save his Dil for getting provisions from a T5 Fleet.
At any rate, my chief complaint is not based the FACT that the system makes it much harder to motivate Fleet Members to participate in Fleet Projects. I have no diabolical desire to torture players, as you seem to imply.
Rather, my complaint is rather that it makes the game LESS FUN. Because its less fun, people quit playing the game. I'm not guessing. I know. The dozens of players in our fleet did not change fleets. They got their gear, Played with it for a while, then QUIT PLAYING STO.
The community effort of building Fleet Projects is FUN, but if there is no reward, it is NOT FUN. In other words, if there is no WORK-REWARD connection, much of the fun disappears.
The notion that you think you're the only fleet with knowledgeable and helpful senior officers is inaccurate, and the fact that you'd make that argument indicates either malice or ignorance. I could go over the intricate mentoring program in our fleet, the ceremonies, the team events, etc., but I'd writing for 20 pages.
I'd love to hear from some T3 Starbase Fleets to see how they think about all of this.
Its pretty obvious that my detractors in the leadership of T5 Fleets would like nothing better than to become the only game in the Fleet space. Indeed, you probably feel that that would be the best arrangement for everyone. There is a clique of players at he top of these fleets that feel that they are helping everyone out. They think of themselves as beneficent rulers. And I'm sure you're all great guys and/or gals and have the best of intentions.
But the current system is ruining the Fleet aspect of the game, which would otherwise be one of the most compelling. Put bluntly, players should have to work to get the best gear. You T5 leaders should not be able to "hack" the system and excuse them from that work. As of now, many otherwise vibrant fleets are little more than chat channels.
I sure hope this changes soon.
I don't "benefit" from it in any way that hurts you and we don't provide provisions to anyone but our members, who freely choose to join us and stay with us.
Making us unable to remove new members who turn out to be bad apples is a terrible idea.
Making us unable to join a new toon and immediately rank match it to a person's other toons is bad for our members. And bad for our officers who have multiple characters.
Your proposal would make it impossible for us to transfer members easily from one fleet to the other and keep them at the rank they've earned.
If we make an alt fleet for members to gain credits in, you'd make it impossible for them to obtain fleet gear, the entire point of such an exercise.
None of your ideas are good. All of your ideas are bad. Stop having bad ideas.
I disagree. The problem isn't that people are doing that. The problem more lies in an OVERALL sense of most of the playerbase and how they are willing to donate DOFFs or dil.
From the many fleets, both big and small I've looked at, there seems to be a mentality of 'all or nothing' in regards to dil and DOFFs. People seem to so often think that they need to donate 'all' the dil or DOFFs to a project, or not donate anything. Instead of looking at it like 'my few thousand dil' or '20 DOFFs I can spare' helps because they are still giving something. It's meant to be a group effort, but in so many fleets I've seen, the primary dil and DOFF donaters tend to be a small group of people instead of a larger fleet effort.
Exceptions to every rule, I know. But I know at the very least, it applies for my fleet.
Fleet marks...people don't mind FMs, because those don't 'hurt' them. That is to say, FMs are only good for fleet stuff, so people gladly give them. Same thing for expertise, you really don't need a lot most of the time, so instead nobody minds dropping millions of expertise if they have it. Compared to donating DOFFs, dil, or ECs, which do 'hurt' because it costs someone something that they can use elsewhere. DOFFs cost ECs, or FCs, dil, or Zen depending on how you get them. ECs are donated by buying commodities, and of course dil is dil.
Honestly, I really don't agree with your ideas either, they just seem to hurt far too many people than they might 'help'.
As to the alt Fleet for Fleet Credits purposes, its a valid point (I suppose) but not one with sufficient weight to overcome the problem at issue. We shouldn't trash the entire Fleet system so a few fleets can do that. Change fleets, get your credits, wait a week (or a day even), then rejoin the old one.
You arguments are bad. Stop coming up with bad arguments.
The rank matching thing is a better point. A simple addition to my suggestions would be to allow a member to join at any rank, not always ensign. That would eliminate that concern.
Your experience is the same as mine. And one major reason many don't give dil and doffs is because they don't really care if their Fleet advances. They just want the Fleet Credits. That's the whole point. If the system were as I suggest, a Fleet could require members to give a certain amount of dil to advance in Fleet Rank (and thus get access to provisions), and they very gladly would do it. Work-reward.
The solution to weak dil and doff contributions is to get Cryptic to value those things higher in fleet credits. 1:1 for dil is just insulting. Tell them to fix that.
You can already gate provisions behind a certain rank and you're free to set whatever promotion requirements you think you can make people put up with.
I'm part of the executive for Delirium Tremens Fleet, a smaller yet highly active fleet. While we have over 100 members (alts included), the core of our fleet is under 30 active members.
And we had no difficulty in completing everything.
Granted a we've had a few very generous members , which has made completing the largest of T5 projects somewhat less stressful.
At the core of this has been a very active management. A strict donation policy has allowed us to achieve everything we've set out to do.
Throughout our building process, members routinely gained access to other fleets for ships, consoles and other gear. The incentive was while we tried new things, we always came back home.
We did lose players. More than a few jumped ship at the thought of actually participating equally in building out fleet. Those who stayed contributed to get access. A constant flow of new players and alts replaced those who jumped ship.
And that's the point I'm trying to make.
Active fleets have a constant flow of new members, building upon the efforts of those who came before. If your problem is maintaining active members, it's not the system; It's the management.
I agree that the fleet system needs work. But it's not in forcing people to stay. It's in giving management the tools to effectively promote, engage and communicate with your players.
It isn't about getting FCs or people 'not caring'. Plenty of people care, even if they are a new member and start donating only a little. It's more that they see the large amounts of dil or DOFFs needed (primarily I mean this at the higher tiers) and have the thought of, "I need to donate all of that, or none of it."
As for the fleet rank thing, you can do that already. I know my fleet does.
On the other end of the spectrum though, some players just are poor, and it isn't their fault, especially if they are a new player, so they cannot afford to dump large amounts of dil or DOFFs into something.
I do agree with this though. Trying to change the whole game to fit your 'philosophy' is a bit insane though as well. There is no 'one' single way to run a fleet or guild in any MMO, ever.
And very much so do I agree about the DOFF and dil payouts in terms of FC. I don't feel it's the main issue, but it REALLY doesn't help the matter when it's such a poor payout for those two things in the first place. More FCS would be a huge encouragement for anyone to donate more of em.
They don't sell in the channel im using, everything is free.
I'm also in a smal fleet (very smal after season 9), mil tier 5, engineer tier 4 (upgrading now to tier 5), sci tier 4 (204.000), star-base tier 5.
Answer to why donate to the star-base.... To buy you need Fleet-Cedits, fleet-credits you only get when you donate to projects.
If you want extra active doff's (300.000 fc) + 5 spire tac consoles (250.000 fc) + weapons, shields, warpcore, engineering consoles, ect,ect you need alot of fc (can get close to 1.000.000) so you need to donate...
Also your own fleet needs to have provicions.
Supposedly for being a Fleet Leader, you have a very poor understanding of how Provisioning works.
Anyways...
My KDF toons belong to a medium sized fleet. We have many members, including myself, who make use of the NoP PublicService Channel. When this began, I wondered if this would kill our own fleet's progression towards a maxed Starbase. But we have maxed the spire, dil mine, embassy. But the Starbase itself is the long project. Anyways, even with many people utilizing NoP Publicservice, it has not killed contributions.
Why? Simple. Because if the guys want to buy fancy Advanced / Elite Fleet Gear, they need Fleet Credits. Since we're still pushing for a maxed Starbase, there's no shortage of projects. Even with the maxed facilities outside the SB, we can still slot projects for them to earn Fleet Credits.
It seems there is an understanding that, yes, NoP Publicservice is an outstanding avenue, it will be more convenient to get our own facilities up to snuff. We already can do a lot of it, but the T5 military yards, etc. are still a goal. And it would be simple to have our own facilities to come and go with and not have to get the permission to visit someone else.
Also, IMO, the Fleet system needs rework and not force things along or push people towards large, mega fleets, or even long established fleets that had things capped long ago.
Small fleets, new fleets will be absolutely crushed by the grind in terms of the time and mountainous levels of resources required.
I am completely against anything that reinforces the importance of larger, established fleets over smaller ones.
To hell with that.
This helps members of smaller fleets get fleet gear, while still forcing them to contribute to their own projects in order to gain the fleet credit to buy. The good items need a lot.
The only exception is fleet ships, which follow the rules you mentioned.
As for dilithium and DOFF contributions - that is not related to having access to fleet gear. Our fleet is maxed out and we still have the issue of dilithium and DOFFs filling last. Dilithium is a precious resource; any silver players especially need to hoard as much as they can for reputation gear/zen conversion, and golds/lifers to a degree too. DOFFs are a little harder to understand - personally, I cannot wait to dump common DOFFs into fleet projects; they clog up my DOFF space!
One thing that may help your fleet is that large/maxed fleets have great difficulty in generating fleet credit, so while they have all these lovely items available to them, members still cannot actually buy them easily. (Kudos to the devs, they have added a project using excess fleetmarks - but they are worth half the usual fleet credit compared to other projects so my method is still more beneficial, IMO.) I have taken to saving up a load of fleetmarks, which my DOFFs tend to generate more or less on their own (I have heard some people even do it with dilithium because they cannot get even that in edgeways in some fleets), leaving my fleet temporarily and dumping them into some small fleet's projects where they are struggling to fill them. Then I invite myself back to my main fleet with an alt. The small fleet gets its projects off the ground, and I get much-needed fleet credit for fleet gear; winners on all sides.
If you keep your eyes peeled, you might spot somebody else doing that, or ask around in large fleets if anybody has that problem. It will be rarer with dilithium though, just due to the nature of that resource.
Creating a fleet and Building it up to tier 5 takes time while some members are happy to wait and work on there fleet to get it to tier 5 others are not so willing to wait that long and will leave for a higher tier fleet that will never change
i Don't Believe Forcing members to stay in a fleet for one week before they can move on will work and will make players less likely to join fleets which in turn will seriously damage the fleet system
People like to look for fleets that suit them it may mean they join a few fleets before they find one they can settle in
in order for people to get the tier 5 fleet stuff they want they are going to need a lot of fleet credits so they will have to be in there fleet for a while to get the credits they need so they will donate
i am a leader of a fleet and we came across this prob over a year ago we had member who would leave our fleet to get tier 5 ship from another fleet then they would return to our fleet as you don t need to leave fleet to get consoles and such
at the time a few of the high ranking members my self included were not best pleased members were doing that but after some discussion we realized we could not stop it and had to accept it because we felt anything we did do would be counter productive to the fleet
we have a tier 4 base and tier 3 on everything else and we have plenty of of provisons and i am happy for anyone to come aboard to buy stuff from my fleet no Charge
i just think your making a mountain out of a mole hill
they give members access to there store which has no good grear in it because there tier is low
a member goes to a completed T5 fleet with everything and gets a map invite .......buys all the great t5 gear he can.wow this is awesome he says
Back at the little fleet ..................All of the provisions are gone
the little fleet now has to reprovision at 1/2 the experence rate
all the members want the fleet credit project to make fleet credits but doesnt help the fleet expand
little fleet stays little and will always stay liitte
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Sounds to me like you had the wrong type of people in your fleet (IE: only in it for the gear), instead of TRIBBLE up the fleet system for everyone else (the promotion and permission time gating would TRIBBLE up a lot of fleets including mine)
id suggest looking for people who are looking to build a community/fleet and stop trying to mess with a perfectly functional system
This is how I read it also. :rolleyes:
You will have those who can contribute a lot, and there are those who cannot contribute much, and/or often due to little or no actual wealth, and needing to handle the reputation/doff/boff/zen/etc.. side, to get themselve's in a comfortable scenario, where they don't need to dump countless amounts of EC's/dilithium to those alone.
Heck I am one of those people, I am extremely poor, and cannot afford to dump actual RL money into this game hardly ever, but yet I run my own solo fleet with the dedication to take it somewhere, yet I have to stop contributions to it from time to time, as to obtain zen, or even complete reputation projects.
You also have to consider the fact some people play this for awhile, and than move on to other games, so those people cannot be counted on, for complete dedication because their motives, for game play differ than other's.
Everyone has their own agenda, and expectancy of what they like, and want from this game, and while there will be people pretty much on the same page, there will still be those who are not.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Starbase progression slowing down in many fleets who use these channels is causing massive ec inflation and is bad for the economy.
And for what it's worth, this is coming from the fleet leader of a fleet that's currently at T3, T2, T2, T2 with the dilithium mine about to make the changeover to T3 and the spire and embassy both in the final stages of progression. We've certainly had issues with donations in the past and we've certainly also had long periods where the fleet progression seemed to stagnate, but I tend to believe that has as much to do with the 'grindy' nature of STO - and the fact that players almost never seem to get any sort of immediate gratification for their sacrifices - as anything other players are trying to do to alleviate that.
Starbase progression, for example, is a particularly brutal grind, costing, even at the end 111 doffs for science, engineering and tactical for each 1,000 step in experience. Depending on how the player acquires those doffs, the feeling a lot of the time is that they just gave up everything they had for basically nothing.