I understand the provision system quite well. If you are suggesting that it's all fine because members still need fleet credits, then YOU don't understand the system very well.
And the problem is not that our Fleet's long time members weren't dedicated to the Fleet. It was a huge social network. It was that eliminating the work-reward aspect of the Fleet system (which is NOT represented by merely getting Fleet Credits for Power Cells) causes people to lose interest in the game and QUIT. Not move to other Fleets. Quit.
I've listened to all the arguments in favor of the current system. I'm convinced that everyone in favor of it is well intentioned and indeed very nice guys.
However, I'm struck by the fact that nobody seems to be arguing that the system is ACTUALLY GOOD FOR THE GAME.
I think its basically impossible to argue that cross-fleet provisioning is not at least marginally (I would argue severely) bad for the Fleet System, and thus the game. If you deny this, you have to deny all aspects of human psychology and economics (to say nothing of my considerable personal experience).
So what is the countervailing benefit? How is allowing players to jump fleets to get provisions good for the game?
I suppose the one argument in favor would be that it encourages players to generate fleet credits in their own Fleet to buy all the T5 gear. But my experience is that the EC and Fleet Mark requirements get filled quickly no matter what, and the dil and doff get filled slowly by a few generous players. If players need Fleet Credits but would have to contribute dil to get them, they just jump fleets for a few hours. So, this "reason in favor" of the current system is actually another argument against it, as it gives members a way to avoid true participation in the system. (Although Fleet Jumping is not the crux of my concern, but rather cross fleet provisioning. However, Fleet Jumping to get Fleet credits is another problem as explained above, one that I have personally faced many times.)
(I don't accept the argument that fleet jumping lets people get fleet credits. That could be fixed very easily by adding Fleet Credit projects to the options. No need to allow cross-fleet provisioning.)
Finally, I want to make one thing clear. I'm not a failed fleet leader whining. Our fleet is fine. We are moving along and have a few big dil contributors. I'm not concerned about the Fleet. I'm concerned that a dozen or more of our most active players LOST INTEREST IN THE GAME AFTER DISCOVERING CROSS FLEET PROVISIONING. I'm personally not interested in getting provisions from other fleets. That would, after all, ruin the fun.
2. Change the Fleet Rank system so that when someone acquires a Fleet Rank, they cannot change rank (higher or lower) for the same amount of time.
3. Change the Fleet Rank Permission system so that the "Purchase From Provisioned Fleet Stores" permission cannot be changed within 1 week of the LAST PERSON being promoted OR demoted to that rank.
So that would basically mean a new char of mine couldnt buy fleetgear, which my other chars with millions of FC already earned/inserted into the fleet, for a week, and could only get his real rank, the second highest, after 6 weeks?
Yeah brilliant idea. And there are not Alliances that trade fleetstuff to each others or fleets, that are so big, they cant fit all members in all fleet. Gosh, even if ppl dont input to fleet projects, they need to do something to get their FC to buy something. And that would be, guess what, fleet projects. Maybe your choice of projects just sucks. Dil-projects arent really big for most ppl. So maybe burning them with 200k "but it looks nice" projects might not be the best way to ensure member motivation
And to think that fleet system is the cause that ppl dont log in anymore, yeah, that logic is quite screwed. S9 was a activity drop, and that had nothing to do with fleet system. Also going to T4 is rather easy, but T4 to T5 is far, far too long stretched, and the fun stops there.
But you sure a good fleet leader, gimping your members.
I agree completely, its time to stop people from exploiting the fleet system with these public service channels. It can't be stopped completely, but it can be made very very time consuming and inconvenient with the promotion cooldowns. Maybe map invites will have to be changed to not allow them to use stores also. The idea will be to discourage fleet hoping for gear, and people will only leave and join new fleets if they want to do it for real.
Starbase progression slowing down in many fleets who use these channels is causing massive ec inflation and is bad for the economy.
Just because NoP screwed your (/your fleets) financing-plan up doesnt mean you have to burn everything^^ that aside, if the fleet system wouldnt be like it is, most small fleets would die fast, since members would transfer to bigger fleets to get their gear. Dont forget that fleet shields are T4, pets T5, elite warpcores and tacitcal consoles T3. There would be quite the gap between members of big and members of small fleets. And thats a very good cause to join a bigger fleet.
In times of the grindfestival we have, the fleet system as it is allows even small fleets with less progression to stay on equal footing, take that away, and only the hardcore-fleetmembers would stay.
Having a hard time breaching the walls of text. My opinion is that there are too many small fleets and it takes massive resources to build them up. I am glad that Tier V fleets are open to all and that there are services like the fleet invites.
For those looking to build a fleet from the ground up ... good luck to you. But don't make the rest of us suffer for eternity with you because you have some ambition to rule your own fleet.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Having a hard time breaching the walls of text. My opinion is that there are too many small fleets and it takes massive resources to build them up. I am glad that Tier V fleets are open to all and that there are services like the fleet invites.
For those looking to build a fleet from the ground up ... good luck to you. But don't make the rest of us suffer for eternity with you because you have some ambition to rule your own fleet.
Yes, this. The way fleet stores work is something that STO does wonderfully, so of course people want to take it away... :rolleyes:
Not going to read this entire thread, but it really seems like it's motivated by greed and ego, not the fleet members' best interest.
And the problem is not that our Fleet's long time members weren't dedicated to the Fleet. It was a huge social network. It was that eliminating the work-reward aspect of the Fleet system (which is NOT represented by merely getting Fleet Credits for Power Cells) causes people to lose interest in the game and QUIT. Not move to other Fleets. Quit.
So, after getting the fleetcredits to buy the fancy toys from other fleets, they left? Do you think, if they couldn't have gotten those toys now, they would've stayed and built your fleet for you before leaving?
Why didn't they already leave after reaching max level on their character? And why didn't they stick around for the next iteration of powercreep?
Are you not concerned that in your "huge social network" of players, reaching the current top of ingame power was some form of "Game Over" message?
Why did none of you just sit back and enjoy the game they're playing?
Couple things your missing here. First the loss of activity in your fleet is something seen through out the whole game, S9 was a flop and people are bored. It likely has very little to do with people being able to gain access to high end fleet gear ahead of time. They released no fleet holding, nerfed all the reps and released a new rep that's passives were weak and uninteresting before the rep nerf, and added a boring battlezone and terrible stfs. So yeah, people are not active like they once were.
Second what do you think your proposal would do to a relatively new tier 2 or 3 fleet? It would make it effectively impossible for these fleets to recruit and keep members, atleast those members that cared about making effective builds. Your at tier 4, only thing really good gated behind T5 is the buffs and elite fighters, but gated behind T4 is allot of good equipment and ships. Your proposal would mean that a fleet would have to maintain its membership base while telling there members they cannot have access to Elite shields, elite buffs, elite fighters, and quite a few good ships. If there fleet doesn't have completed sub holdings then no fleet consoles either.
Do you seriously think many people would join a sub T4/5 fleet under a system like that? The answer is no, and the likelyhood of those few that do join staying would be slim to none. Put simply, your proposal would be the death of small and new fleets.
Lastly this is not a hack or exploit as you claim, this is a feature that has been advertised and promoted by the developers, likely for the exact reasons I stated above.
1. Change the Fleet recruitment system so that when someone joins a Fleet, they cannot be removed for a specific period of time, say a week.
Fine. No banishments for a week. Won't stop people from clicking "leave". Unless that's gonna be restricted, too. Which is gonna do wonders for the unaligned (can't test out the fleet without making a full week commitment)
2. Change the Fleet Rank system so that when someone acquires a Fleet Rank, they cannot change rank (higher or lower) for the same amount of time.
So, if my friend joins, and I want to make him a rank 6, he's gonna tie up the fleetwide promotion system for over a month? Boy, this is gonna make promotions of any sort in a mega-fleet impossible to get.
3. Change the Fleet Rank Permission system so that the "Purchase From Provisioned Fleet Stores" permission cannot be changed within 1 week of the LAST PERSON being promoted OR demoted to that rank.
Huh? This is, supposedly, something that'll say, prevent, making the ensign rank a "turn provisions on, sell one item, shut off" system. Fleets won't do this, they'll just tie up their promotion system even worse, using their one promotion a week to take the top performing ensign-donator and promote them to rank 2 which can shop, instead. This isn't gonna do nothing but slow down promotions, especially in conjunction with your previous changes...
(Note that even preventing changes for, say, 8 hours would help immensely, see below).
These changes would likely eliminate the hack almost completely.
That is, if you see the system as a hack. I, on the other hand, see it as a "fair" system that, after a couple growing pains, has evolved into a way to let even the solo fleet artist that has T1 in everything and a few provisions get the same gear (PvP especially) that the "best" use in combat, and actually restricts an elitist mentality (I'm in a T5 fleet. Get out of my STF if you can't buy the top-end gear...)
Currently, the Fleets that sell their provisions let the purchaser join, and a Fleet member accompanies the purchaser to the relevant Fleet Store. Then, either the purchaser is briefly elevated to a rank that has Store Permissions, or the permissions for Ensign are briefly changed to allow the purchaser to buy the item. Once the purchase is complete, the permission are reset, and/or the purchaser is kicked from the Fleet.
My history-fu is lacking. I can't remember if the fleet system launched with "shop at bigger fleet store but use your fleet provisions" or that was added later. Either way, in the early fleet days, there was many a house rule that was as restrictive, if not more restrictive, than what you propose. I'm talking just to "use" the "spend current fleet provision" "hack" costed hundreds of thousands in EC, and if you joined the mega fleet you were in "no shopping rank" until you donated thousands in Dilithium or DOffs. Nevermind in that short window of "boy, you need to be in a big fleet to shop the big fleet stores", and many a small fleet whined that they were losing their big spenders to mega fleets that had the stores already...
Then Dental, Wesley, or Nerds confirmed, 100%, that sharing their maps caused them no harm, the first public service channel was born (with free fleet invites), and we are where we are today. Because the community decided that this was the best way to go, not that the entire fleet system needs to be locked down as you propose (and the community effectively did)
As you can see, if my suggestions were implemented, in order to continue selling Fleet Gear, an offending Fleet would be required to give the purchaser unlimited access to its fleet provisions for a full week ( because they couldn't kick, change rank, or change permissions once they had been instituted). Continuing to sell Fleet Provisions would prove mostly unfeasible, as any Fleet that tried to continue with the old system would find its Fleet Stores empty in short order as the odd unscrupulous purchaser bought up everything he wanted.
Of course, the hack might continue, but the fee for access would necessarily be much higher (in the hundreds of millions of EC), as the offending Fleet would have to assume that any purchaser was going to use dozens of Fleet Store provisions.
I expect lots of complaints from people who use the hack, and lots of support from people trying to build and run Fleets.
I think middle paragraph is telling. Back to the "massive fee for access" days. Relatively small fleet on the cusp of T5, while most of the existing T5s are full or gonna fill up quick. A cynical person might see all this not as a "bad leader whining sour grapes about bad luck", instead, it might come across as a blatant cash-grab - can you say millions to get in and millions more to be "first" on the promotion list?
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
I'm concerned that the current Fleet system is a disaster.
The problem stems from the ability of players to acquire all the benefits of being in a fleet without actually participating in one.
I'm convinced that YOUR fleet is a disaster, since you seem to constantly expect someone ELSE to build YOUR fleet for you. I built my fleet to T5 just fine ON MY OWN, and these ridiculous proposals of yours are a transparent attempt to tell OTHER people how to run THEIR fleets, a task which they are clearly better at than YOU.
I'm convinced that YOUR fleet is a disaster, since you seem to constantly expect someone ELSE to build YOUR fleet for you. I built my fleet to T5 just fine ON MY OWN, and these ridiculous proposals of yours are a transparent attempt to tell OTHER people how to run THEIR fleets, a task which they are clearly better at than YOU.
I think we can pretty much end the thread there. Problem resolved.
It's not myfault ifyoufeel trolledbymyDisco ball...Sorry'boutit.
Millions of EC???? I got ALL map invites for FREE, I host a tiny fleet for years now and have many toons in 2 T5 fleets, all you need is provisions.. this is not a hack, FAIR if anything having a hugemungous fleet would put you at a supreme advantage if the system worked any other way. NO you dont get to have better than everyone else, not sorry for ya..
1)You say people were going to get fleet ships and then coming back to show them off. So that means everyone was leaving the fleet and rejoining. Your make it sound like for the fleet ships they were using your bases provisions - you don't - you use the fleet that you are getting the T5 ships from.
2)There has been truly MASSIVE turnover in the game in the last 6 months - Cryptic has made some changes and nerfs that have made the grind not worth it or made the game just too un-Trek for a lot of people. Hence many have left due to Cryptics antics and not do to getting endgame(lol every time I say Endgame about STO) gear.
Additionally - Cryptic has added dilithium costs to almost everything. Added to that they have made the most profitable for time ways to grind dilithium - primarily a ground zone - most people HATE ground stuff in STO. Sure there is the Undine space zone now but it could be too late for all those people that were put off by the Voth and then the Rep changes.
I bet a few things are helping all these people saying there fleet is doing great:
a)they are very lucky
b)they have 20-30 very active contributors
c)they have a few very LARGE contributors who do all the work
d) they have a leader and/or leaders who are very active - both large contributors of resources and/or time.
e)they are engaged in constant recruitment.
Without at least 3 of the above things most fleets will not be doing very well.
I own a T4 base T3mine T3 embassy and T2 spire - I built most of it myself - but I have added a few people to help out after I was done T4 base T2 embassy and T2 mine. After I began to stop putting in any more effort to the base - the others basically stopped as well. I am fine with that. I am fine with the many great public channels offering free invites to get gear - why - because I don't have to waste any extra time or resources grinding out a virtual holding with zero value to me once I stop playing or the game shuts down. I cut back playing the game from 40 hrs per week to maybe 4 - hard to run a fleet with that time commitment. But again I am fine with that.
There is very little point in the fleet system as this game becomes more and more solo friendly. This is not the fault of the fleet system - it is Cryptic who is designing the GAME to be a solo MMO.
So you have more and more players in the game that want to just do the solo thing that Cryptic encourages - but also want access to the fleet gear - therein you have all this new breed of "leecher" attitude coming into the game. This is promoted by STO's game "development" and will only get worse as they turn this into Ipad online for preschoolers.
But don't worry too much about it - Cryptic is on it's path to create a casual game that few care about long-term as per their business strategy. Sadly they will eventually run out of players to grind through and that will be the end of it. There is not much you can do about that.
Without at least 3 of the above things most fleets will not be doing very well.
That's not true. My fleet only has two of these things, and c and d are the same thing. I would say that completion of everything of worth (SB 5/5/5, all side holdings) counts as successful.
yea, c and d are the only relevant ones, my 3 man team has 2 bases at t4. Its not hard at all to get rich in this game, you can get everything for free by just playing
Given that there are precisely zero random mechanics affecting fleet advancement, this can immediately be ruled out as a factor.
In other words, fleets where people care succeed, fleets where people don't care fail. No surprise.
That's not true. My fleet only has two of these things, and c and d are the same thing. I would say that completion of everything of worth (SB 5/5/5, all side holdings) counts as successful.
With a) Lucky - I was referring to the type of people they get in the fleet - yes there is a certain amount of screening that can be done - but being "lucky" and finding a few dedicated players/contributors is also a relevant factor. All sorts of Real life things happen that also take people away from the game - several fleets are lucky that they have not lost lots of players. The comment does not relate to the construction outcome of each assignment, but to fleets in general.
I was going to comment more - but I deleted it - I just don't care that much any more.
Good luck to the OP - but don't expect any changes to the fleet system other than more dilithium sinks and holdings being added.
Look allowing access to higher fleets stuff does not hurt small fleets it helps them or all my chars would be in big fleets im not a fleet leader or leading member of any fleets. i just play the game my way n try n help when n were i can.
With a) Lucky - I was referring to the type of people they get in the fleet - yes there is a certain amount of screening that can be done - but being "lucky" and finding a few dedicated players/contributors is also a relevant factor.
I don't really think "Do It Yourself" qualifies as luck, so...
I'm concerned that the current Fleet system is a disaster.
The problem stems from the ability of players to acquire all the benefits of being in a fleet without actually participating in one.
...omissis...
To be onest, I think you are right... but IMHO doing those changes will also destroy a lot of fed small fleets and will be devasting for kdf fleets (you know, kdf faction is being smaller and smaller). I think a lot of player will leave their small fleet and join a larger one...
I think the real problem is the huge amount of resources needed for building the base and holdings... who designed the fleet system did not take care about small fleets.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
I've always thought it was a lousy and badly designed concept to have to be in a fleet to obtain some of the best equipment. Hence, I am one of those who is only in a fleet because I want a tier 5 fleet ship, and once I have it and all the highest level weapons and gear I can get from it, I'll be dropping out. However, there is nothing wrong with the system itself. Fleet leaders have the ability to decide who gets access to the store, when, and for what cost (if any). Yes, you can bypass this whole system and get fleet gear without having to join a fleet, but to get the ships, you must. Now, since this is a player run economy, there is virtually no limit to what players can sell or trade for (with a few exceptions). A fleet selling access to its stores is a decision made by the leaders of that fleet, who run the projects and keep it stocked and supplied, and who worked to build it up. If you don't wish to go the easy route, or don't have the millions of ec they ask for, then you always have the option of starting your own fleet or finding one to help out. Me, k vet a sense of satisfaction knowing that I earned every single thing I own in game. From my ships to my gear and abilities.
Several people arguing in favor of the current system have acknowledged that they share my experience of having long-time players leave the game.
They attribute it to their claim that S8 sucked.
I don't necessarily agree with that assertion.
I would simply point out that the decline in players was directly correlated to the rise of the Free Gear fleets.
That, in conjunction with the fact that I observed the dozen best players in our fleet quit the game after they got the T5 equipment and played with it for a few weeks, reinforces my conviction that cross-fleet provisioning is ruining the game and needs to end.
All of you nit-picking my off-the-top-of-my-head suggestion as to how to resolve the issue apparently lack the ability to comprehend the main point.
Here's another technical solution (hey devs):
Add a field to the equipment objects like "Fleet". If the field is "any" (for non-fleet gear), then it can be equipped at any time. If the equipment comes from a fleet, then the field that designates the fleet it came from, like "ABC Fleet." Then, when someone tries to equip that gear, only allow it to be equipped if the fleet field matches the character's fleet field.
That way, players would only buy fleet gear from a fleet they intended to stay in. It would motivate them to participate. Not discourage them. Yes, if the fleet failed, their investment would be at risk. I say, "Perfect."
Again, not a perfect solution, but it would sure help.
And if I hear this nonsense about how this would stop Fleet Creation I'm going to lose it.
Up until 6 or 8 months ago, high Tier Fleets were generally restrictive about giving out Fleet gear. Yet new fleets thrived. So why didn't everyone join only T5 fleets? Because your argument is a joke ,that's why.
Several people arguing in favor of the current system have acknowledged that they share my experience of having long-time players leave the game.
They attribute it to their claim that S8 sucked.
I don't necessarily agree with that assertion.
I would simply point out that the decline in players was directly correlated to the rise of the Free Gear fleets.
That, in conjunction with the fact that I observed the dozen best players in our fleet quit the game after they got the T5 equipment and played with it for a few weeks, reinforces my conviction that cross-fleet provisioning is ruining the game and needs to end.
All of you nit-picking my off-the-top-of-my-head suggestion as to how to resolve the issue apparently lack the ability to comprehend the main point.
Here's another technical solution (hey devs):
Add a field to the equipment objects like "Fleet". If the field is "any" (for non-fleet gear), then it can be equipped at any time. If the equipment comes from a fleet, then the field that designates the fleet it came from, like "ABC Fleet." Then, when someone tries to equip that gear, only allow it to be equipped if the fleet field matches the character's fleet field.
That way, players would only buy fleet gear from a fleet they intended to stay in. It would motivate them to participate. Not discourage them. Yes, if the fleet failed, their investment would be at risk. I say, "Perfect."
Again, not a perfect solution, but it would sure help.
And if I hear this nonsense about how this would stop Fleet Creation I'm going to lose it.
Up until 6 or 8 months ago, high Tier Fleets were generally restrictive about giving out Fleet gear. Yet new fleets thrived. So why didn't everyone join only T5 fleets? Because your argument is a joke ,that's why.
Even if your correct, which your not, I have yet to hear you explain how you expect new fleets or current small fleets to survive when they must tell there members they cannot access high end gear for at a minimum 9-10 months. Those same members can just as easily jump ship and join a large fleet and have access to everything.
Your proposals are the death of new/small fleets, and would ultimately lead to large fleets such as mine being able to sell membership. Hell with your latest idea we could hold people hostage, pay me 100mil EC or I kick you and all that gear you bought is worthless. Please think things through.
Up until 6 or 8 months ago, high Tier Fleets were generally restrictive about giving out Fleet gear. Yet new fleets thrived. So why didn't everyone join only T5 fleets? Because your argument is a joke ,that's why.
So...in other words: I don't want to truly argue and debate, I'll just call everyone else's argument a 'joke'.
Also, don't go presuming nothing about nobody. My fleet has hit a BIG low spot in donations the past weeks. It ain't because they got all their shiny fleet gear from another fleet. It's more like they are tired of how the game feels like an endless grind with nothing truly 'new' or 'interesting' added to it. And I know not everyone feels that way, but that isn't the point, it is how so many of MY fleet members feel right now. I'm not mad or angry with them, honestly I agree with them, I just also have a duty to keep the fleet running, and so I try and log on nearly every day and do what I can to keep the figurative ball rolling.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Add a field to the equipment objects like "Fleet". If the field is "any" (for non-fleet gear), then it can be equipped at any time. If the equipment comes from a fleet, then the field that designates the fleet it came from, like "ABC Fleet." Then, when someone tries to equip that gear, only allow it to be equipped if the fleet field matches the character's fleet field.
That way, players would only buy fleet gear from a fleet they intended to stay in. It would motivate them to participate. Not discourage them. Yes, if the fleet failed, their investment would be at risk. I say, "Perfect."
Again, not a perfect solution, but it would sure help.
No, that's still a terrible idea. We've got four fleets. We transfer members from one to another daily. I'm not going to accept our members getting hurt by this idiocy. Plus our members leave to dump resources in smaller fleets pretty frequently, too, then return. But they don't have to return, if they don't want to. Once someone buys something, it's theirs. With no restrictions. Anything else is fundamentally unfair and harmful.
You don't want to help your fleet, you just want to hurt everyone else. Misery loves company, right?
Add a field to the equipment objects like "Fleet". If the field is "any" (for non-fleet gear), then it can be equipped at any time. If the equipment comes from a fleet, then the field that designates the fleet it came from, like "ABC Fleet." Then, when someone tries to equip that gear, only allow it to be equipped if the fleet field matches the character's fleet field.
That way, players would only buy fleet gear from a fleet they intended to stay in. It would motivate them to participate. Not discourage them. Yes, if the fleet failed, their investment would be at risk. I say, "Perfect."
I could see it for Elite gear but Advanced should be left as is.
NO to ARC RIP KDF and PvP 2014-07-17 Season 9.5 - Death by Dev
Several people arguing in favor of the current system have acknowledged that they share my experience of having long-time players leave the game.
They attribute it to their claim that S8 sucked.
I don't necessarily agree with that assertion.
I would simply point out that the decline in players was directly correlated to the rise of the Free Gear fleets.
That, in conjunction with the fact that I observed the dozen best players in our fleet quit the game after they got the T5 equipment and played with it for a few weeks, reinforces my conviction that cross-fleet provisioning is ruining the game and needs to end.
All of you nit-picking my off-the-top-of-my-head suggestion as to how to resolve the issue apparently lack the ability to comprehend the main point.
Here's another technical solution (hey devs):
Add a field to the equipment objects like "Fleet". If the field is "any" (for non-fleet gear), then it can be equipped at any time. If the equipment comes from a fleet, then the field that designates the fleet it came from, like "ABC Fleet." Then, when someone tries to equip that gear, only allow it to be equipped if the fleet field matches the character's fleet field.
That way, players would only buy fleet gear from a fleet they intended to stay in. It would motivate them to participate. Not discourage them. Yes, if the fleet failed, their investment would be at risk. I say, "Perfect."
Again, not a perfect solution, but it would sure help.
And if I hear this nonsense about how this would stop Fleet Creation I'm going to lose it.
Up until 6 or 8 months ago, high Tier Fleets were generally restrictive about giving out Fleet gear. Yet new fleets thrived. So why didn't everyone join only T5 fleets? Because your argument is a joke ,that's why.
bad, bad idea... the way to destroy small fleets.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
I would simply point out that the decline in players was directly correlated to the rise of the Free Gear fleets.
That, in conjunction with the fact that I observed the dozen best players in our fleet quit the game after they got the T5 equipment and played with it for a few weeks, reinforces my conviction that cross-fleet provisioning is ruining the game and needs to end.
You seem to care not about players leaving after getting the top gear so long as game design forced them to stay until finishing your fleetholdings.
Your suggestions are aimed at exploiting players with a desire for top-level fleet gear and the dubious fortune of joining your fleet, as workforce for building up your fleets holdings. I suspect you'll have a hard time finding supporters for this.
You called your fleet a huge social network, yet here you are begging the devs to chain players to your fleet until they finished grinding through the holdings. Not so social after all?
If you want a top-level fleet under your total control, you will not find many (if any) players to help you. And people will naturally oppose ideas that allow you to trap other players in your fleet for an extended or indefinite period of time.
Add a field to the equipment objects like "Fleet". If the field is "any" (for non-fleet gear), then it can be equipped at any time. If the equipment comes from a fleet, then the field that designates the fleet it came from, like "ABC Fleet." Then, when someone tries to equip that gear, only allow it to be equipped if the fleet field matches the character's fleet field.
That way, players would only buy fleet gear from a fleet they intended to stay in. It would motivate them to participate. Not discourage them. Yes, if the fleet failed, their investment would be at risk. I say, "Perfect."
Again, not a perfect solution, but it would sure help.
And if I hear this nonsense about how this would stop Fleet Creation I'm going to lose it.
Up until 6 or 8 months ago, high Tier Fleets were generally restrictive about giving out Fleet gear. Yet new fleets thrived. So why didn't everyone join only T5 fleets? Because your argument is a joke ,that's why.
Ok, I am now convinced that killelr is actually trying to outright kill the whole fleet system.
It's the only explanation I can come up with for why she would suggest such an incredibly bad Idea as this.
It's not myfault ifyoufeel trolledbymyDisco ball...Sorry'boutit.
I think the idea is that the whole fleet system centers around players getting together in groups for a common goal, to work together to build up a fleet, the result being, tier 5 starbase holdings, and tier 3 mine, embassy, and spire holdings resulting in the members of that fleet having access to all of the equipment and all available to them for having put in the time and effort, working together to accomplish it.
With so many fleets out there who have already done this and have now converted into free stuff fleets theres no longer any desire for people to join a fleet resulting in fleets slowly dieing as the whole fleet system falls apart. Whats people to do? join those few fleets that have everything maxed? Does that mean the games only allowed so many fleets? and who tells us who can and cannot be the leaders? Maybe some of us want to be the leader of our own fleet? I think that's the problem right there.
As far as chaining people to a fleet as forced labor, let me put it this way, fleet gear was put on the game in the first place as a reward for fleets who took the time to level their holdings, should other people benefit from someone else's time and expense? Do we cater to the mooch now? The person who wants everything for nothing? If so, why not just scrap the whole fleet system as a failed idea.
If people were willing to hop fleets and pay fees for better gear, introducing restrictions would just mean that those people permanently leave instead of temporarily leave. Trying to force them to stay means they stay - at the bigger fleet where they can get their toys.
Allowing someone who just Made VA after a week of play to get all the best gear is a very very bad idea. Most will lose interest in the game very quickly if the top rewards are that easy to get.
Just 4 tactical consoles from the Spire cost 200,000 Fleet Credits. How the heck does a week-old character have over 200k FC to get all the best gear?
Not to mention that it takes a minimum of 40 days to hit T5 in a reputation system, and if you're not using any gear from there you're certainly not running with all the best gear.
Add a field to the equipment objects like "Fleet". If the field is "any" (for non-fleet gear), then it can be equipped at any time. If the equipment comes from a fleet, then the field that designates the fleet it came from, like "ABC Fleet." Then, when someone tries to equip that gear, only allow it to be equipped if the fleet field matches the character's fleet field.
That way, players would only buy fleet gear from a fleet they intended to stay in. It would motivate them to participate. Not discourage them. Yes, if the fleet failed, their investment would be at risk. I say, "Perfect."
Again, not a perfect solution, but it would sure help.
And me a fleet-leader, can become a dictator.. lissen to me or i kick you from the fleet and nothing you have will work any-more !!!!!!
Comments
And the problem is not that our Fleet's long time members weren't dedicated to the Fleet. It was a huge social network. It was that eliminating the work-reward aspect of the Fleet system (which is NOT represented by merely getting Fleet Credits for Power Cells) causes people to lose interest in the game and QUIT. Not move to other Fleets. Quit.
I've listened to all the arguments in favor of the current system. I'm convinced that everyone in favor of it is well intentioned and indeed very nice guys.
However, I'm struck by the fact that nobody seems to be arguing that the system is ACTUALLY GOOD FOR THE GAME.
I think its basically impossible to argue that cross-fleet provisioning is not at least marginally (I would argue severely) bad for the Fleet System, and thus the game. If you deny this, you have to deny all aspects of human psychology and economics (to say nothing of my considerable personal experience).
So what is the countervailing benefit? How is allowing players to jump fleets to get provisions good for the game?
I suppose the one argument in favor would be that it encourages players to generate fleet credits in their own Fleet to buy all the T5 gear. But my experience is that the EC and Fleet Mark requirements get filled quickly no matter what, and the dil and doff get filled slowly by a few generous players. If players need Fleet Credits but would have to contribute dil to get them, they just jump fleets for a few hours. So, this "reason in favor" of the current system is actually another argument against it, as it gives members a way to avoid true participation in the system. (Although Fleet Jumping is not the crux of my concern, but rather cross fleet provisioning. However, Fleet Jumping to get Fleet credits is another problem as explained above, one that I have personally faced many times.)
(I don't accept the argument that fleet jumping lets people get fleet credits. That could be fixed very easily by adding Fleet Credit projects to the options. No need to allow cross-fleet provisioning.)
Finally, I want to make one thing clear. I'm not a failed fleet leader whining. Our fleet is fine. We are moving along and have a few big dil contributors. I'm not concerned about the Fleet. I'm concerned that a dozen or more of our most active players LOST INTEREST IN THE GAME AFTER DISCOVERING CROSS FLEET PROVISIONING. I'm personally not interested in getting provisions from other fleets. That would, after all, ruin the fun.
So that would basically mean a new char of mine couldnt buy fleetgear, which my other chars with millions of FC already earned/inserted into the fleet, for a week, and could only get his real rank, the second highest, after 6 weeks?
Yeah brilliant idea. And there are not Alliances that trade fleetstuff to each others or fleets, that are so big, they cant fit all members in all fleet. Gosh, even if ppl dont input to fleet projects, they need to do something to get their FC to buy something. And that would be, guess what, fleet projects. Maybe your choice of projects just sucks. Dil-projects arent really big for most ppl. So maybe burning them with 200k "but it looks nice" projects might not be the best way to ensure member motivation
And to think that fleet system is the cause that ppl dont log in anymore, yeah, that logic is quite screwed. S9 was a activity drop, and that had nothing to do with fleet system. Also going to T4 is rather easy, but T4 to T5 is far, far too long stretched, and the fun stops there.
But you sure a good fleet leader, gimping your members.
Just because NoP screwed your (/your fleets) financing-plan up doesnt mean you have to burn everything^^ that aside, if the fleet system wouldnt be like it is, most small fleets would die fast, since members would transfer to bigger fleets to get their gear. Dont forget that fleet shields are T4, pets T5, elite warpcores and tacitcal consoles T3. There would be quite the gap between members of big and members of small fleets. And thats a very good cause to join a bigger fleet.
In times of the grindfestival we have, the fleet system as it is allows even small fleets with less progression to stay on equal footing, take that away, and only the hardcore-fleetmembers would stay.
For those looking to build a fleet from the ground up ... good luck to you. But don't make the rest of us suffer for eternity with you because you have some ambition to rule your own fleet.
- Judge Aaron Satie
Yes, this. The way fleet stores work is something that STO does wonderfully, so of course people want to take it away... :rolleyes:
Not going to read this entire thread, but it really seems like it's motivated by greed and ego, not the fleet members' best interest.
Why didn't they already leave after reaching max level on their character? And why didn't they stick around for the next iteration of powercreep?
Are you not concerned that in your "huge social network" of players, reaching the current top of ingame power was some form of "Game Over" message?
Why did none of you just sit back and enjoy the game they're playing?
Regardless how good the current system is, your proposal makes it worse and that's what people are telling you here.
Second what do you think your proposal would do to a relatively new tier 2 or 3 fleet? It would make it effectively impossible for these fleets to recruit and keep members, atleast those members that cared about making effective builds. Your at tier 4, only thing really good gated behind T5 is the buffs and elite fighters, but gated behind T4 is allot of good equipment and ships. Your proposal would mean that a fleet would have to maintain its membership base while telling there members they cannot have access to Elite shields, elite buffs, elite fighters, and quite a few good ships. If there fleet doesn't have completed sub holdings then no fleet consoles either.
Do you seriously think many people would join a sub T4/5 fleet under a system like that? The answer is no, and the likelyhood of those few that do join staying would be slim to none. Put simply, your proposal would be the death of small and new fleets.
Lastly this is not a hack or exploit as you claim, this is a feature that has been advertised and promoted by the developers, likely for the exact reasons I stated above.
Fine. No banishments for a week. Won't stop people from clicking "leave". Unless that's gonna be restricted, too. Which is gonna do wonders for the unaligned (can't test out the fleet without making a full week commitment)
So, if my friend joins, and I want to make him a rank 6, he's gonna tie up the fleetwide promotion system for over a month? Boy, this is gonna make promotions of any sort in a mega-fleet impossible to get.
Huh? This is, supposedly, something that'll say, prevent, making the ensign rank a "turn provisions on, sell one item, shut off" system. Fleets won't do this, they'll just tie up their promotion system even worse, using their one promotion a week to take the top performing ensign-donator and promote them to rank 2 which can shop, instead. This isn't gonna do nothing but slow down promotions, especially in conjunction with your previous changes...
That is, if you see the system as a hack. I, on the other hand, see it as a "fair" system that, after a couple growing pains, has evolved into a way to let even the solo fleet artist that has T1 in everything and a few provisions get the same gear (PvP especially) that the "best" use in combat, and actually restricts an elitist mentality (I'm in a T5 fleet. Get out of my STF if you can't buy the top-end gear...)
My history-fu is lacking. I can't remember if the fleet system launched with "shop at bigger fleet store but use your fleet provisions" or that was added later. Either way, in the early fleet days, there was many a house rule that was as restrictive, if not more restrictive, than what you propose. I'm talking just to "use" the "spend current fleet provision" "hack" costed hundreds of thousands in EC, and if you joined the mega fleet you were in "no shopping rank" until you donated thousands in Dilithium or DOffs. Nevermind in that short window of "boy, you need to be in a big fleet to shop the big fleet stores", and many a small fleet whined that they were losing their big spenders to mega fleets that had the stores already...
Then Dental, Wesley, or Nerds confirmed, 100%, that sharing their maps caused them no harm, the first public service channel was born (with free fleet invites), and we are where we are today. Because the community decided that this was the best way to go, not that the entire fleet system needs to be locked down as you propose (and the community effectively did)
I think middle paragraph is telling. Back to the "massive fee for access" days. Relatively small fleet on the cusp of T5, while most of the existing T5s are full or gonna fill up quick. A cynical person might see all this not as a "bad leader whining sour grapes about bad luck", instead, it might come across as a blatant cash-grab - can you say millions to get in and millions more to be "first" on the promotion list?
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
I think we can pretty much end the thread there. Problem resolved.
R.I.P. Leonard Nimoy
1)You say people were going to get fleet ships and then coming back to show them off. So that means everyone was leaving the fleet and rejoining. Your make it sound like for the fleet ships they were using your bases provisions - you don't - you use the fleet that you are getting the T5 ships from.
2)There has been truly MASSIVE turnover in the game in the last 6 months - Cryptic has made some changes and nerfs that have made the grind not worth it or made the game just too un-Trek for a lot of people. Hence many have left due to Cryptics antics and not do to getting endgame(lol every time I say Endgame about STO) gear.
Additionally - Cryptic has added dilithium costs to almost everything. Added to that they have made the most profitable for time ways to grind dilithium - primarily a ground zone - most people HATE ground stuff in STO. Sure there is the Undine space zone now but it could be too late for all those people that were put off by the Voth and then the Rep changes.
I bet a few things are helping all these people saying there fleet is doing great:
a)they are very lucky
b)they have 20-30 very active contributors
c)they have a few very LARGE contributors who do all the work
d) they have a leader and/or leaders who are very active - both large contributors of resources and/or time.
e)they are engaged in constant recruitment.
Without at least 3 of the above things most fleets will not be doing very well.
I own a T4 base T3mine T3 embassy and T2 spire - I built most of it myself - but I have added a few people to help out after I was done T4 base T2 embassy and T2 mine. After I began to stop putting in any more effort to the base - the others basically stopped as well. I am fine with that. I am fine with the many great public channels offering free invites to get gear - why - because I don't have to waste any extra time or resources grinding out a virtual holding with zero value to me once I stop playing or the game shuts down. I cut back playing the game from 40 hrs per week to maybe 4 - hard to run a fleet with that time commitment. But again I am fine with that.
There is very little point in the fleet system as this game becomes more and more solo friendly. This is not the fault of the fleet system - it is Cryptic who is designing the GAME to be a solo MMO.
So you have more and more players in the game that want to just do the solo thing that Cryptic encourages - but also want access to the fleet gear - therein you have all this new breed of "leecher" attitude coming into the game. This is promoted by STO's game "development" and will only get worse as they turn this into Ipad online for preschoolers.
But don't worry too much about it - Cryptic is on it's path to create a casual game that few care about long-term as per their business strategy. Sadly they will eventually run out of players to grind through and that will be the end of it. There is not much you can do about that.
So goes the life cycle of a F2P mmo.
In other words, fleets where people care succeed, fleets where people don't care fail. No surprise.
That's not true. My fleet only has two of these things, and c and d are the same thing. I would say that completion of everything of worth (SB 5/5/5, all side holdings) counts as successful.
With a) Lucky - I was referring to the type of people they get in the fleet - yes there is a certain amount of screening that can be done - but being "lucky" and finding a few dedicated players/contributors is also a relevant factor. All sorts of Real life things happen that also take people away from the game - several fleets are lucky that they have not lost lots of players. The comment does not relate to the construction outcome of each assignment, but to fleets in general.
I was going to comment more - but I deleted it - I just don't care that much any more.
Good luck to the OP - but don't expect any changes to the fleet system other than more dilithium sinks and holdings being added.
To be onest, I think you are right... but IMHO doing those changes will also destroy a lot of fed small fleets and will be devasting for kdf fleets (you know, kdf faction is being smaller and smaller). I think a lot of player will leave their small fleet and join a larger one...
I think the real problem is the huge amount of resources needed for building the base and holdings... who designed the fleet system did not take care about small fleets.
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
They attribute it to their claim that S8 sucked.
I don't necessarily agree with that assertion.
I would simply point out that the decline in players was directly correlated to the rise of the Free Gear fleets.
That, in conjunction with the fact that I observed the dozen best players in our fleet quit the game after they got the T5 equipment and played with it for a few weeks, reinforces my conviction that cross-fleet provisioning is ruining the game and needs to end.
All of you nit-picking my off-the-top-of-my-head suggestion as to how to resolve the issue apparently lack the ability to comprehend the main point.
Here's another technical solution (hey devs):
Add a field to the equipment objects like "Fleet". If the field is "any" (for non-fleet gear), then it can be equipped at any time. If the equipment comes from a fleet, then the field that designates the fleet it came from, like "ABC Fleet." Then, when someone tries to equip that gear, only allow it to be equipped if the fleet field matches the character's fleet field.
That way, players would only buy fleet gear from a fleet they intended to stay in. It would motivate them to participate. Not discourage them. Yes, if the fleet failed, their investment would be at risk. I say, "Perfect."
Again, not a perfect solution, but it would sure help.
And if I hear this nonsense about how this would stop Fleet Creation I'm going to lose it.
Up until 6 or 8 months ago, high Tier Fleets were generally restrictive about giving out Fleet gear. Yet new fleets thrived. So why didn't everyone join only T5 fleets? Because your argument is a joke ,that's why.
Even if your correct, which your not, I have yet to hear you explain how you expect new fleets or current small fleets to survive when they must tell there members they cannot access high end gear for at a minimum 9-10 months. Those same members can just as easily jump ship and join a large fleet and have access to everything.
Your proposals are the death of new/small fleets, and would ultimately lead to large fleets such as mine being able to sell membership. Hell with your latest idea we could hold people hostage, pay me 100mil EC or I kick you and all that gear you bought is worthless. Please think things through.
So...in other words: I don't want to truly argue and debate, I'll just call everyone else's argument a 'joke'.
Also, don't go presuming nothing about nobody. My fleet has hit a BIG low spot in donations the past weeks. It ain't because they got all their shiny fleet gear from another fleet. It's more like they are tired of how the game feels like an endless grind with nothing truly 'new' or 'interesting' added to it. And I know not everyone feels that way, but that isn't the point, it is how so many of MY fleet members feel right now. I'm not mad or angry with them, honestly I agree with them, I just also have a duty to keep the fleet running, and so I try and log on nearly every day and do what I can to keep the figurative ball rolling.
No, that's still a terrible idea. We've got four fleets. We transfer members from one to another daily. I'm not going to accept our members getting hurt by this idiocy. Plus our members leave to dump resources in smaller fleets pretty frequently, too, then return. But they don't have to return, if they don't want to. Once someone buys something, it's theirs. With no restrictions. Anything else is fundamentally unfair and harmful.
You don't want to help your fleet, you just want to hurt everyone else. Misery loves company, right?
I could see it for Elite gear but Advanced should be left as is.
RIP KDF and PvP 2014-07-17 Season 9.5 - Death by Dev
bad, bad idea... the way to destroy small fleets.
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
Your suggestions are aimed at exploiting players with a desire for top-level fleet gear and the dubious fortune of joining your fleet, as workforce for building up your fleets holdings. I suspect you'll have a hard time finding supporters for this.
You called your fleet a huge social network, yet here you are begging the devs to chain players to your fleet until they finished grinding through the holdings. Not so social after all?
If you want a top-level fleet under your total control, you will not find many (if any) players to help you. And people will naturally oppose ideas that allow you to trap other players in your fleet for an extended or indefinite period of time.
Ok, I am now convinced that killelr is actually trying to outright kill the whole fleet system.
It's the only explanation I can come up with for why she would suggest such an incredibly bad Idea as this.
R.I.P. Leonard Nimoy
With so many fleets out there who have already done this and have now converted into free stuff fleets theres no longer any desire for people to join a fleet resulting in fleets slowly dieing as the whole fleet system falls apart. Whats people to do? join those few fleets that have everything maxed? Does that mean the games only allowed so many fleets? and who tells us who can and cannot be the leaders? Maybe some of us want to be the leader of our own fleet? I think that's the problem right there.
As far as chaining people to a fleet as forced labor, let me put it this way, fleet gear was put on the game in the first place as a reward for fleets who took the time to level their holdings, should other people benefit from someone else's time and expense? Do we cater to the mooch now? The person who wants everything for nothing? If so, why not just scrap the whole fleet system as a failed idea.
Just 4 tactical consoles from the Spire cost 200,000 Fleet Credits. How the heck does a week-old character have over 200k FC to get all the best gear?
Not to mention that it takes a minimum of 40 days to hit T5 in a reputation system, and if you're not using any gear from there you're certainly not running with all the best gear.
And me a fleet-leader, can become a dictator.. lissen to me or i kick you from the fleet and nothing you have will work any-more !!!!!!