I would simply point out that the decline in players was directly correlated to the rise of the Free Gear fleets.
That, in conjunction with the fact that I observed the dozen best players in our fleet quit the game after they got the T5 equipment and played with it for a few weeks, reinforces my conviction that cross-fleet provisioning is ruining the game and needs to end.
Correlation does not equal Causation.
You claim that 100% of the reason "your fleeties" bailed is because they've hit the top of the grind-chain (full set of fleet level gear), realized that STO at that level = faceroll on spacebar online, then bailed.
We claim that it could be other things. Yeah, a lot of people focus on the suckage that was Season 8, but did you look at the dearth of content in S9? Really - 2 "STFs" (aka queueable missions), one of which punishes cannon boats (shoot at a target below you that's protected from most approachable angles and you have to find the narrow ring where you can point your ship "as straight down as possible" and shoot) while dodging the "waves" of Fluidic space, and the second where the objectives are as clear as mud (escort 3 NPCs up a chain of non-stop foes and pray you have a competent 30k DPS BFaW ship in your 5 man to solo a lane)? A space battlezone that's been said to pay better for failure than success? And is annoying as heck to run? Mark boxes that clutter inventory instead of straight-to-appropriate wallet delivery like every other reputation system? Nerfing of Trait system? Nerfing of Rep Passives?
Due to the sheer volume of changes in the past few months, it's nigh impossible to point to a singular cause as to why dozens (hundreds) of people bailing - cause if there was a singular cause, Cryptic would have obviously fixed it by now or at least acknowledged it...
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
Players will not leave the game after acquiring gear from some other fleet. If they leave because others are doing it, then there must be something wrong with them as they can do the same. There must be another reason why they have stopped playing the game.
No new VA can acquire any gear from their T5 fleet if they don't have the FCredits. Heck, there are players from T5 fleet coming into my fleet albeit temporarily to get the credits from our Projects that is no longer available because their fleet has finished all their Bases. I accept them because they help out and get the credits they need. Many leave and come back for more and leave again.
Small fleet especially KDF fleets are having a hard time with getting members. Many hardly use their Klink toons anymore. There is the option to merge. I just had a fleet merge into mine, but I ensured that their group was intact and headed by their fleet leader. I simply created a House for them and their leader is the Lord of the House of ****. I have given strict instructions that they function independently and follow the chain of command. Only one main rule that applies to all..."no bad language and foul comments in Chat. Punishment - immediate expulsion" which applies to all. Heck, their showing up my original membership by being more active with their own Events. So with my system anyone may merge in the same fashion...some are check us out. I may eventually have to convert my original group as another House. They seem to be happy as moving up the ranks is based on Total Contributions...once they reach a certain total they are promoted automatically...no 'friends in high places', no 'politics'.
I wouldn't want anyone to sensor my ship to find out what gear I have on my ship. And if they did what would it benefit them to find that my weapons come from fleet X, and my Eng'g consoles from fleet Y, and my tac consoles from fleet Z. Why should anyone have the power to check what gear I have?
I dislike the idea of another player being able to view my items on my ship, what ever, or how ever I have my ship configured is for my benefit and information alone. I do not need big brother looking at my stuff and then taking the next step telling me what I should be running or not using.
Fleets are a social hub, and should remain so. My fleet has three people in it, (including myself). I don't want a fleet full of 450 strangers who never talk to each other.
I would simply point out that the decline in players was directly correlated to the rise of the Free Gear fleets.
That, in conjunction with the fact that I observed the dozen best players in our fleet quit the game after they got the T5 equipment and played with it for a few weeks, reinforces my conviction that cross-fleet provisioning is ruining the game and needs to end.
All of you nit-picking my off-the-top-of-my-head suggestion as to how to resolve the issue apparently lack the ability to comprehend the main point.
I've noticed some attrition lately too.
I suspect there are all sorts of factors leading to attrition, Time of year, the state of PVP, GRIND ect. ect.
Somehow I doubt cross fleet provisioning is THE reason tho.
And me a fleet-leader, can become a dictator.. lissen to me or i kick you from the fleet and nothing you have will work any-more !!!!!!
Yeah, then watch people leave the game... lol
How's about cross fleet contributing? This would kick small fleets who rely on these contributions right in the Jimmies.
What happens if you leave one fleet for another? Or you get kicked by a douche, or your fleet disbands... Everything you legitimately participated in to get in one fleet, becomes worthless?!
Make it a habit of takin away what players legitimately earned and watch attrition really soar.
A lesson I feel Cryptic still needs to learn.
What happens if you leave one fleet for another? Or you get kicked by a douche, or your fleet disbands... Everything you legitimately participated in to get in one fleet, becomes worthless?!
Make it a habit of takin away what players legitimately earned and watch attrition really soar.
A lesson I feel Cryptic still needs to learn.]
My sense is that giving people stuff the DIDN'T earn is what's causing attrition. I'm amazed that given the nature of the game its so hard for you to see that.
Right now, within like a month of making VA (in an hour if you buy ZEN), you can have THE best Warp Core, Best Weapons, Best Consoles, best shield/deflector/engine, and the best ship. Yeah, someday they might come up with a MK XIII Cannon or something. But nobody is going to wait around for it.
And yes, if Fleet Gear was bound to the Fleet, there would be occasional instances where someone was kicked unjustly from a Fleet. (Although I find it hard to imagine that a Fleet could generate the participation necessary to achieve a high Tier if the leaders were noxious). Those rare instances could be handled by Admins, like many other issues are.
It seems to me that on balance, it would make the game much more congenial. The Fleet leaders would have to be very helpful and nice because any sign of a "dictatorial" regime would cause the mass exodus of players. Players would have to be respectful because they wouldn't want to alienate the leaders or the other members. Further, players and Fleets would take more care in choosing each other, likely leading to an enhanced social aspect to the game.
Indeed, my experience bears this out, to a degree. After my Fleet members discovered Cross Fleet Provisioning, two of the active members sort of changed personalities, from very fun and polite, to obnoxious and annoying, flaunting their T5 gear, calling people working on the Fleet stupid. They haven't been on for months now (like the rest).
I want to point out that Fleet Leaders NEED to have some work-reward tool in order to keep players engaged in Fleet activities. They make the game MUCH MORE FUN. As it currently stands, all a Fleet Leader can offer his members is a higher rank, without any serious benefits flowing from it. I'm sorry, but an average player is not going to be interested in participating on that basis.
Finally, there's an important point that any GOOD Fleet leader will acknowledge. There has to be SOME incentive for a person to put in the time and energy necessary to build a successful Fleet that actually adds an engaging dimension to the game, and to continually manage it. (That would not include the big Give Away Gear Fleets, as they add nothing in my judgment). The deserved respect and acknowledgement of the Fleet Members is something they DESERVE because they EARN IT (notwithstanding the occasional guy accusing Fleet Managers as being aspiring dictators. Really?) As it now stands, the only people players need to be polite to are the leaders of the Give Away Gear Fleets, the people who are RUINING the game.
I think the idea is that the whole fleet system centers around players getting together in groups for a common goal, to work together to build up a fleet, the result being, tier 5 starbase holdings, and tier 3 mine, embassy, and spire holdings resulting in the members of that fleet having access to all of the equipment and all available to them for having put in the time and effort, working together to accomplish it.
With so many fleets out there who have already done this and have now converted into free stuff fleets theres no longer any desire for people to join a fleet resulting in fleets slowly dieing as the whole fleet system falls apart. Whats people to do? join those few fleets that have everything maxed? Does that mean the games only allowed so many fleets? and who tells us who can and cannot be the leaders? Maybe some of us want to be the leader of our own fleet? I think that's the problem right there.
As far as chaining people to a fleet as forced labor, let me put it this way, fleet gear was put on the game in the first place as a reward for fleets who took the time to level their holdings, should other people benefit from someone else's time and expense? Do we cater to the mooch now? The person who wants everything for nothing? If so, why not just scrap the whole fleet system as a failed idea.
Even if your correct, which your not, I have yet to hear you explain how you expect new fleets or current small fleets to survive when they must tell there members they cannot access high end gear for at a minimum 9-10 months. Those same members can just as easily jump ship and join a large fleet and have access to everything.
Your proposals are the death of new/small fleets, and would ultimately lead to large fleets such as mine being able to sell membership. Hell with your latest idea we could hold people hostage, pay me 100mil EC or I kick you and all that gear you bought is worthless. Please think things through.
They are not the death of small fleet at all.
I don't need to speculate as to why this is, because I know from experience that a year ago, Fleet Provisions were NOT freely available. Everyone knew if you wanted T5 gear, you had to get into a T5 Fleet. Yet the Fleet system thrived, and new Fleets popped up constantly.
Indeed, a several people an hour used to SPAM ESD for people to help them start a fleet. Now I see about one a day on average. What happened is simple. When people get to the point in the game where they understand the Fleet System, many used to decide to start a Fleet, or join a small one so they could really feel included. Now, when they get to that point they just say, "TRIBBLE it."
I think most players really enjoy being a relevant part of a newer Fleet. I know that I and the 20-some-odd founding members of our fleet knew full well that we could join a T5 Fleet, and that starting a T1 Fleet meant a year or more of playing. But nobody let that stop them.
As it stands now, nobody will contribute to the Small Fleets because nothing they do is relevant. The small Fleet will stay small and irrelevant. If you are someone who wants to start a Fleet, you're in the wrong game. If you like a few Mega Fleets that's act as the WalMart and McDonalds of STO, you're in the right place.
It's a new take on the tortoise and the hare.
In this version, the hare won by a mile, then the tortoise stopped midway and ranted that nobody should be allowed to run so fast.
haha I think what we've all learned here is that Cryptic should just scrap the whole fleet system. In a perfect world people would want to work together to accomplish the goal of maxing out their fleet and benefitting from it, in the real world though everyone's out for themselves, no one wants to work together, and everyone wants everything handed to them, that is totally incompatible with the whole fleet system idea so I say just dump the whole system and remove fleet gear from the game completely.
I'll go with the positive cround on those providing free acess to their fleet junk
As for people paying for axis .. well fools and their money.
That said I do believe some (actually many) people actually do grab all that power easily, and suddenly realize that under all the grind and time gatting there is no game in the game. Cause well, i've seen it dozens of times in other games, the mad power hungry person out begging for power levels, work arounds, cheats, exploits, yada-yada .. crying in town the next week that they are bored and there's nothing to do.
Partly the player's fault, but alot the designers. They get concentrated on time gatting or sepearating the players from their money they forget to add fun to their game. The company just hopes new players keep on gettting suckered in behind the old ones
(BTW .. worst offender / company I'm thinking of above .. out of buisiness, taking all its MMO and games with it.)
PS:
Yes, also add to above that players being chased off by unfavourable changes after laying down all their EC/Real Money, and yup they dissapear. Heck, they all could be here, and just left you for a T4/T5 fleet, or gone fleetless. Or gone T1 for more easy fleet credits, to buy more stuff and repeat
I don't need to speculate as to why this is, because I know from experience that a year ago, Fleet Provisions were NOT freely available. Everyone knew if you wanted T5 gear, you had to get into a T5 Fleet. Yet the Fleet system thrived, and new Fleets popped up constantly.
Indeed, a several people an hour used to SPAM ESD for people to help them start a fleet. Now I see about one a day on average. What happened is simple. When people get to the point in the game where they understand the Fleet System, many used to decide to start a Fleet, or join a small one so they could really feel included. Now, when they get to that point they just say, "TRIBBLE it."
I think most players really enjoy being a relevant part of a newer Fleet. I know that I and the 20-some-odd founding members of our fleet knew full well that we could join a T5 Fleet, and that starting a T1 Fleet meant a year or more of playing. But nobody let that stop them.
As it stands now, nobody will contribute to the Small Fleets because nothing they do is relevant. The small Fleet will stay small and irrelevant. If you are someone who wants to start a Fleet, you're in the wrong game. If you like a few Mega Fleets that's act as the WalMart and McDonalds of STO, you're in the right place.
Your argument is full of flaws. First of all a year ago there were a handful of T5 fleets, getting into one wasn't always easy. Today there are many, and even more T4 fleets getting close to T5. Second a year ago you could still get gear from other fleets relatively easily, you just had to pay. I should know, my fleet funded our entire KDF fleet build up by selling access to our completed fed fleet. It was a good business, and should have stayed that way, but as always communists showed up and ruined it.
Who in there right mind would join a new fleet now when they are told they have to wait 9-10 months for gear, the answer is noone, not when they can easily find a T4/5 to join.
Also as a side point, even though both our KDF and Fed fleets are completed our projects still somehow manage to fill pretty regularly. Even though all our members have access to all the gear the projects still fill. Your problem is with your leadership or fleet structure, not the fleet system itself.
Your argument is full of flaws. First of all a year ago there were a handful of T5 fleets, getting into one wasn't always easy. Today there are many, and even more T4 fleets getting close to T5. Second a year ago you could still get gear from other fleets relatively easily, you just had to pay. I should know, my fleet funded our entire KDF fleet build up by selling access to our completed fed fleet. It was a good business, and should have stayed that way, but as always communists showed up and ruined it.
Who in there right mind would join a new fleet now when they are told they have to wait 9-10 months for gear, the answer is noone, not when they can easily find a T4/5 to join.
Also as a side point, even though both our KDF and Fed fleets are completed our projects still somehow manage to fill pretty regularly. Even though all our members have access to all the gear the projects still fill. Your problem is with your leadership or fleet structure, not the fleet system itself.
It's like I'm talking to a tree.
They're not commies, they're part of the anarchist thief set. Smart kids, but with a distinct lack of wisdom. Think downloading a full library of stolen music, not thinking or caring about how that damages the artists, and thus the future creation of music. I'd bet my last dollar that the guys behind the free for everybody fleets have a couple harddrives full.
Here is the final warning, and boy I hope I'm wrong (and unfortunately I rarely am, but for some reason people always need to learn the hard way):
The continued existence of this game is at stake. (Its unfortunate that STO might serve as an example of what happens when the anarchist/thief set take over.) A real fleet system MIGHT save it.
LAST THOUGHT:
Captain Picard: Welcome Cadet. Now that's you've reached the age of 14, you are in command of the Federation Flagship. It comes with all the latest technology and weaponry. Please invite your friends to the bridge to imitate sexual movements on each other. And be sure to castigate anyone who questions this state of affairs.
Ensign: Thanks baldy.
Now think about the set that is attracted to a STAR TREK game. Do you think they are going to be attracted to an environment dominated by that set? I'd suggest they want to feel like they are in Starfleet. And Fleets, properly structured, can help provide that. As of now, its not working.
- Actually, with rep sponsor tokens and maximum effort, it's possible to finish a rep chain in less than 18 days. Seriously. (It would require something like 17-18 dailies and maxing out the 3 hourlies per day.) Without a token, yes, it's more like 35-40 days.
If they've only played for a week, they're probably not on an alt with a sponsorship. :P
Not only are we anarchist thieves, we're also only 14, steal hard drives worth of music, ERP on our bridges, and lack any amount of wisdom. LOL. Wrong on all accounts.
Several people arguing in favor of the current system have acknowledged that they share my experience of having long-time players leave the game.
This game is a MMO, churn happens. In fact MMOs have a fairly high rate of churn. Trying to pin players leaving on any one thing is a task in futility. Some leave cause they are board, or don't like the direction of the game, or maybe they met someone and are more interested in their relationship then playing, or they got a new job and don't have the time anymore, or maybe they are tired of their fleet leader making terrible suggestions about the fleet system on the forums and decided to leave.
The fleet system isn't perfect, Certainly small fleets have issues getting enough resources for the inputs, and large fleet have issues getting fleet credits to buy the stuff they have unlocked. Dil, for being a major, and gated, currency, gets a rather terrible exchange rate for Fleet credits, and Doffs are another issue, the amount needed should either be reduced so doff recruitment can more easily cover it, or they need to also get a higher fleet credit payout, or maybe a bit of both.
What the Fleet system doesn't need to silly restrictions that wouldn't actually prevent the any of the things you think have hampered your fleet, but you can't provide any real proof that is why you have had your problems, that is just your wild guess. Instead they would just make them take longer to do, and would instead make it harder for large fleets that maintain multiple fleets from being able to shuffle players around in order to try and overcome some of the issues with size caps and FC earning.
They're not commies, they're part of the anarchist thief set. Smart kids, but with a distinct lack of wisdom. Think downloading a full library of stolen music, not thinking or caring about how that damages the artists, and thus the future creation of music. I'd bet my last dollar that the guys behind the free for everybody fleets have a couple harddrives full.
Here is the final warning, and boy I hope I'm wrong (and unfortunately I rarely am, but for some reason people always need to learn the hard way):
The continued existence of this game is at stake. (Its unfortunate that STO might serve as an example of what happens when the anarchist/thief set take over.) A real fleet system MIGHT save it.
LAST THOUGHT:
Captain Picard: Welcome Cadet. Now that's you've reached the age of 14, you are in command of the Federation Flagship. It comes with all the latest technology and weaponry. Please invite your friends to the bridge to imitate sexual movements on each other. And be sure to castigate anyone who questions this state of affairs.
Ensign: Thanks baldy.
Now think about the set that is attracted to a STAR TREK game. Do you think they are going to be attracted to an environment dominated by that set? I'd suggest they want to feel like they are in Starfleet. And Fleets, properly structured, can help provide that. As of now, its not working.
Seriously? I mean, Really? Are you mental? I'm sorry, but it had to be asked. All your ideas for changing the current Fleet system are just insane. I am in 4 Fleets on Holodeck. I am Fleet Leader in a Fed and a KDF Fleet and Senior Officer in a Fed & KDF Fleet. The 2 Fleets that I am Fleet Leader, they are mostly for RP purposes and are very low tiered, so lets leave them out of it.....The 2 Fleets where I am a Senior Officer in, I have been with them for almost 2 years now and these fleets were NOT my first fleets. Actually, they were my 3rd, the first two having fleet leaders that felt that no one could buy ANYTHING until they had contributed over 1 Million in FC among other silly rules!!! So, I left those fleets and found The Phoenix Division and The House of the Phoenix. They welcomed me and made me feel like I was part of a family. Our Leaders are very active and very helpful, especially to new members. In these 2 fleets, I have a total of 18 characters. About split half Fed and half KDF. Now, with this new idea of yours, lets just hypothetically say the Leaders go MIA and the Fleet stagnates (sorry One, trying to make a point :P ) and I want to leave and either join my lower level Fleets or join new ones. With YOUR system, all the Fleet gear that I have EARNED is now worthless. WHAT!?!?!?! Really? I don't think so. Why should I be punished because the Fleet that I was in fell apart? Or, let's say that my Fleet Leaders decided to kick everyone and sell the Fleet? Don't say it can't happen, I have seen it before. Again, I am being punished for something that is NOT my fault. And yes, Cryptic instituted those silly rules a while back to prevent that. But, that is only to STOP the Leader Ranks and Promotions. I can be kicked right now without ANY timer. But, I digress.
As to the comments that I quoted.....I happen to be 40 years old & I have fought and bleed for this country, please do not call me an anarchist/thief. Everything I have, I have worked my TRIBBLE off for. Just because someone decides to help out those that want help, it does not make them anarchist/thieves. I think you need to take a closer look at your own Fleet, stop worrying about what other people are doing and remember this one simple fact......
THIS IS A VIDEO GAME!!!! NOT A JOB!!! Go have fun and quit worrying!
What the Fleet system doesn't need to silly restrictions that wouldn't actually prevent the any of the things you think have hampered your fleet, but you can't provide any real proof that is why you have had your problems, that is just your wild guess. Instead they would just make them take longer to do, and would instead make it harder for large fleets that maintain multiple fleets from being able to shuffle players around in order to try and overcome some of the issues with size caps and FC earning.
Its not a wild guess. Its what I saw happen. As in, players saying "The Fleet is pretty much irrelevant now that I can get gear without it." Then quitting the game a month later.
I question the value of Mega Fleets anyway. What, are you buddies with all 10,000 members? No, most are there to get the gear.
What you call "issues" with FC are limits built into the system that would naturally keep Fleet system from becoming an oligopoly, rather than a thriving free market. (If the devs forsaw this and encouraged it, I will stand corrected.)
Seriously? I mean, Really? Are you mental? I'm sorry, but it had to be asked. All your ideas for changing the current Fleet system are just insane...
As to the comments that I quoted.....I happen to be 40 years old & I have fought and bleed for this country, please do not call me an anarchist/thief. Everything I have, I have worked my TRIBBLE off for. Just because someone decides to help out those that want help, it does not make them anarchist/thieves...
Cumon I was being tong-in-cheek in response to the communist comment. The Capt. Picard thing didn't tip you off? (Although I am a bit curious as to why you're so defensive).
But I'm glad we've dispensed with the civility. Always very charming.
So first they ignore you, then that laugh at you, then they attack you, then....
Its not a wild guess. Its what I saw happen. As in, players saying "The Fleet is pretty much irrelevant now that I can get gear without it." Then quitting the game a month later.
Will you quit a month after finishing your T5 fleet and getting all the gear?
I am the leader of Embers of the Rebellion (a medium sized fleet), and I may not be the best leader... But it appears to me that you are blaming the game for your members' loss of contribution. If you blame an inanimate system for your own failures, you should have never created a fleet. You are not worthy of being a leader... Being a leader is really hard, it takes a lot of effort! If you can't find ways to keep your members interested in the holdings, it's because you are doing something wrong.
I'm concerned that the current Fleet system is a disaster.
The problem stems from the ability of players to acquire all the benefits of being in a fleet without actually participating in one.
By simply joining a fleet that they do not intend to stay in or contribute to (often for an EC fee of many millions), they acquire all the best gear and Fleet Ships. This seemingly innocent "hack" of the Fleet system is having DIRE repercussions for the overall Fleet System, and the game.
As the creator of a large and formerly active Fleet, I know how damaging this trick is to the Fleet system and the game in general.
Four months ago, my Fleet would have 15 to 30 active members online at any time (500 members total). The Members were engaged in the rank system, and enthusiastic about Fleet Projects. We had completed Tier IV Starbase, Tier III Embassy, Tier III Dil Mine upgrades, etc.
Then, one of the players discovered a Fleet (and private chat channel) that would let him acquire top tier gear in every category for an EC payement. He showed up one day with a Tier V Fleet Ship, and started posting the specs from his new top-tier consoles in Fleet Chat.
Within a couple week, contributions to Fleet Projects had stopped. All the active players soon acquired the top tier gear in the same way.
The Fleet was active for another month or so, as players experimented with their new gear. Then, over a couple months, it DIED. Nobody was interested in completing Fleet Projects (and why would the be?). And because they had all achieved the final state of top gear, the game lost its appeal. Most of the challenge and reward had been removed. Why bust your TRIBBLE trying to make Fleet Captain, when you can get a Tier V Fleet Ship in 5 minutes?
At least twenty formerly very active players who had all been playing for a year or longer have not logged on in three months or more. They are gone. And its painfully clear that the Fleet Hack is the main, if not only, reason.
THIS HACK OF THE FLEET SYSTEM NEEDS TO BE FIXED
The current "hackability" of the Fleet system is widely used. You can't sit at ESD for more than a few minutes without someone spamming the zone for access to, say, a TIER III Dil mine. Private chat networks dedicated to this purpose are thriving.
STO needs to fix this. Here is a simple code-based fix:
1. Change the Fleet recruitment system so that when someone joins a Fleet, they cannot be removed for a specific period of time, say a week.
2. Change the Fleet Rank system so that when someone acquires a Fleet Rank, they cannot change rank (higher or lower) for the same amount of time.
3. Change the Fleet Rank Permission system so that the "Purchase From Provisioned Fleet Stores" permission cannot be changed within 1 week of the LAST PERSON being promoted OR demoted to that rank.
(Note that even preventing changes for, say, 8 hours would help immensely, see below).
These changes would likely eliminate the hack almost completely.
Currently, the Fleets that sell their provisions let the purchaser join, and a Fleet member accompanies the purchaser to the relevant Fleet Store. Then, either the purchaser is briefly elevated to a rank that has Store Permissions, or the permissions for Ensign are briefly changed to allow the purchaser to buy the item. Once the purchase is complete, the permission are reset, and/or the purchaser is kicked from the Fleet.
As you can see, if my suggestions were implemented, in order to continue selling Fleet Gear, an offending Fleet would be required to give the purchaser unlimited access to its fleet provisions for a full week ( because they couldn't kick, change rank, or change permissions once they had been instituted). Continuing to sell Fleet Provisions would prove mostly unfeasible, as any Fleet that tried to continue with the old system would find its Fleet Stores empty in short order as the odd unscrupulous purchaser bought up everything he wanted.
Of course, the hack might continue, but the fee for access would necessarily be much higher (in the hundreds of millions of EC), as the offending Fleet would have to assume that any purchaser was going to use dozens of Fleet Store provisions.
I think its important to emphasize to the STO developers just HOW MUCH THIS HACK OF THE FLEET SYSTEM IS HURTING THE GAME. STO is likely losing lots of players, and thus revenue, by letting this continue.
More importantly, the Hack is fundamentally sabotaging what is otherwise an ingenious and fun Fleet System. But in its current state, it is only a shadow of what it should be. As a Fleet leader, I'm left with recruiting new players, and hoping they don't find out about the hack too soon.
I expect lots of complaints from people who use the hack, and lots of support from people trying to build and run Fleets.
If the parties agree to the terms beforehand then it's not a hack or a trick, it's an agreement.
I question the value of Mega Fleets anyway. What, are you buddies with all 10,000 members? No, most are there to get the gear.
I joined before there was ever Fleet gear, and I joined a big fleet to ensure there would be people to talk to. I could just chat on Zone, but our Fleet serves as a quality filter since members are required to follow our own internal code of conduct, and by using our own channel we're able to chat across maps and in-game Fleets.
I highly doubt anyone joins us just for gear, since there's a 2-week probationary period before access is granted. Unless they're very patient, they could have just joined another Fleet with more immediate access.
I believe people join our Fleet because we are well structured and very organized, with a leadership and officer corp that takes their responsibilities seriously. We have an amazing website, and we're provided with nice rank collars, signatures, and avatars.
Certainly we did have one or two people who joined solely for gear, which was what forced us to implement the 2 week probationary period, but most members (especially now) are part of our little community because it's a nice place to be, not because they just want gear.
8-Ball Company here. I wont bore you with lofty humblebrags about how big our fleet/e-peens are.
But I also acquired some gear from the NoP channel but STILL kept donating to the fleet projects inspite of it. I personally didn't like the idea that I had to ask for access repeatedly. (Some were really cool, some wouldn't even invite you simply because they didn't like your screen name.)
Comments
Correlation does not equal Causation.
You claim that 100% of the reason "your fleeties" bailed is because they've hit the top of the grind-chain (full set of fleet level gear), realized that STO at that level = faceroll on spacebar online, then bailed.
We claim that it could be other things. Yeah, a lot of people focus on the suckage that was Season 8, but did you look at the dearth of content in S9? Really - 2 "STFs" (aka queueable missions), one of which punishes cannon boats (shoot at a target below you that's protected from most approachable angles and you have to find the narrow ring where you can point your ship "as straight down as possible" and shoot) while dodging the "waves" of Fluidic space, and the second where the objectives are as clear as mud (escort 3 NPCs up a chain of non-stop foes and pray you have a competent 30k DPS BFaW ship in your 5 man to solo a lane)? A space battlezone that's been said to pay better for failure than success? And is annoying as heck to run? Mark boxes that clutter inventory instead of straight-to-appropriate wallet delivery like every other reputation system? Nerfing of Trait system? Nerfing of Rep Passives?
Due to the sheer volume of changes in the past few months, it's nigh impossible to point to a singular cause as to why dozens (hundreds) of people bailing - cause if there was a singular cause, Cryptic would have obviously fixed it by now or at least acknowledged it...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
Players will not leave the game after acquiring gear from some other fleet. If they leave because others are doing it, then there must be something wrong with them as they can do the same. There must be another reason why they have stopped playing the game.
No new VA can acquire any gear from their T5 fleet if they don't have the FCredits. Heck, there are players from T5 fleet coming into my fleet albeit temporarily to get the credits from our Projects that is no longer available because their fleet has finished all their Bases. I accept them because they help out and get the credits they need. Many leave and come back for more and leave again.
Small fleet especially KDF fleets are having a hard time with getting members. Many hardly use their Klink toons anymore. There is the option to merge. I just had a fleet merge into mine, but I ensured that their group was intact and headed by their fleet leader. I simply created a House for them and their leader is the Lord of the House of ****. I have given strict instructions that they function independently and follow the chain of command. Only one main rule that applies to all..."no bad language and foul comments in Chat. Punishment - immediate expulsion" which applies to all. Heck, their showing up my original membership by being more active with their own Events. So with my system anyone may merge in the same fashion...some are check us out. I may eventually have to convert my original group as another House. They seem to be happy as moving up the ranks is based on Total Contributions...once they reach a certain total they are promoted automatically...no 'friends in high places', no 'politics'.
I wouldn't want anyone to sensor my ship to find out what gear I have on my ship. And if they did what would it benefit them to find that my weapons come from fleet X, and my Eng'g consoles from fleet Y, and my tac consoles from fleet Z. Why should anyone have the power to check what gear I have?
Fleets are a social hub, and should remain so. My fleet has three people in it, (including myself). I don't want a fleet full of 450 strangers who never talk to each other.
I've noticed some attrition lately too.
I suspect there are all sorts of factors leading to attrition, Time of year, the state of PVP, GRIND ect. ect.
Somehow I doubt cross fleet provisioning is THE reason tho.
What he said, very eloquently.
Yeah, then watch people leave the game... lol
How's about cross fleet contributing? This would kick small fleets who rely on these contributions right in the Jimmies.
What happens if you leave one fleet for another? Or you get kicked by a douche, or your fleet disbands... Everything you legitimately participated in to get in one fleet, becomes worthless?!
Make it a habit of takin away what players legitimately earned and watch attrition really soar.
A lesson I feel Cryptic still needs to learn.
My sense is that giving people stuff the DIDN'T earn is what's causing attrition. I'm amazed that given the nature of the game its so hard for you to see that.
Right now, within like a month of making VA (in an hour if you buy ZEN), you can have THE best Warp Core, Best Weapons, Best Consoles, best shield/deflector/engine, and the best ship. Yeah, someday they might come up with a MK XIII Cannon or something. But nobody is going to wait around for it.
And yes, if Fleet Gear was bound to the Fleet, there would be occasional instances where someone was kicked unjustly from a Fleet. (Although I find it hard to imagine that a Fleet could generate the participation necessary to achieve a high Tier if the leaders were noxious). Those rare instances could be handled by Admins, like many other issues are.
It seems to me that on balance, it would make the game much more congenial. The Fleet leaders would have to be very helpful and nice because any sign of a "dictatorial" regime would cause the mass exodus of players. Players would have to be respectful because they wouldn't want to alienate the leaders or the other members. Further, players and Fleets would take more care in choosing each other, likely leading to an enhanced social aspect to the game.
Indeed, my experience bears this out, to a degree. After my Fleet members discovered Cross Fleet Provisioning, two of the active members sort of changed personalities, from very fun and polite, to obnoxious and annoying, flaunting their T5 gear, calling people working on the Fleet stupid. They haven't been on for months now (like the rest).
I want to point out that Fleet Leaders NEED to have some work-reward tool in order to keep players engaged in Fleet activities. They make the game MUCH MORE FUN. As it currently stands, all a Fleet Leader can offer his members is a higher rank, without any serious benefits flowing from it. I'm sorry, but an average player is not going to be interested in participating on that basis.
Finally, there's an important point that any GOOD Fleet leader will acknowledge. There has to be SOME incentive for a person to put in the time and energy necessary to build a successful Fleet that actually adds an engaging dimension to the game, and to continually manage it. (That would not include the big Give Away Gear Fleets, as they add nothing in my judgment). The deserved respect and acknowledgement of the Fleet Members is something they DESERVE because they EARN IT (notwithstanding the occasional guy accusing Fleet Managers as being aspiring dictators. Really?) As it now stands, the only people players need to be polite to are the leaders of the Give Away Gear Fleets, the people who are RUINING the game.
That would seem to me to define the word "irony."
Amen brother.
I don't need to speculate as to why this is, because I know from experience that a year ago, Fleet Provisions were NOT freely available. Everyone knew if you wanted T5 gear, you had to get into a T5 Fleet. Yet the Fleet system thrived, and new Fleets popped up constantly.
Indeed, a several people an hour used to SPAM ESD for people to help them start a fleet. Now I see about one a day on average. What happened is simple. When people get to the point in the game where they understand the Fleet System, many used to decide to start a Fleet, or join a small one so they could really feel included. Now, when they get to that point they just say, "TRIBBLE it."
I think most players really enjoy being a relevant part of a newer Fleet. I know that I and the 20-some-odd founding members of our fleet knew full well that we could join a T5 Fleet, and that starting a T1 Fleet meant a year or more of playing. But nobody let that stop them.
As it stands now, nobody will contribute to the Small Fleets because nothing they do is relevant. The small Fleet will stay small and irrelevant. If you are someone who wants to start a Fleet, you're in the wrong game. If you like a few Mega Fleets that's act as the WalMart and McDonalds of STO, you're in the right place.
is this thread for real?
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In this version, the hare won by a mile, then the tortoise stopped midway and ranted that nobody should be allowed to run so fast.
As for people paying for axis .. well fools and their money.
That said I do believe some (actually many) people actually do grab all that power easily, and suddenly realize that under all the grind and time gatting there is no game in the game. Cause well, i've seen it dozens of times in other games, the mad power hungry person out begging for power levels, work arounds, cheats, exploits, yada-yada .. crying in town the next week that they are bored and there's nothing to do.
Partly the player's fault, but alot the designers. They get concentrated on time gatting or sepearating the players from their money they forget to add fun to their game. The company just hopes new players keep on gettting suckered in behind the old ones
(BTW .. worst offender / company I'm thinking of above .. out of buisiness, taking all its MMO and games with it.)
PS:
Yes, also add to above that players being chased off by unfavourable changes after laying down all their EC/Real Money, and yup they dissapear. Heck, they all could be here, and just left you for a T4/T5 fleet, or gone fleetless. Or gone T1 for more easy fleet credits, to buy more stuff and repeat
Your argument is full of flaws. First of all a year ago there were a handful of T5 fleets, getting into one wasn't always easy. Today there are many, and even more T4 fleets getting close to T5. Second a year ago you could still get gear from other fleets relatively easily, you just had to pay. I should know, my fleet funded our entire KDF fleet build up by selling access to our completed fed fleet. It was a good business, and should have stayed that way, but as always communists showed up and ruined it.
Who in there right mind would join a new fleet now when they are told they have to wait 9-10 months for gear, the answer is noone, not when they can easily find a T4/5 to join.
Also as a side point, even though both our KDF and Fed fleets are completed our projects still somehow manage to fill pretty regularly. Even though all our members have access to all the gear the projects still fill. Your problem is with your leadership or fleet structure, not the fleet system itself.
Communists! They ruin everything.
It's like I'm talking to a tree.
They're not commies, they're part of the anarchist thief set. Smart kids, but with a distinct lack of wisdom. Think downloading a full library of stolen music, not thinking or caring about how that damages the artists, and thus the future creation of music. I'd bet my last dollar that the guys behind the free for everybody fleets have a couple harddrives full.
Here is the final warning, and boy I hope I'm wrong (and unfortunately I rarely am, but for some reason people always need to learn the hard way):
The continued existence of this game is at stake. (Its unfortunate that STO might serve as an example of what happens when the anarchist/thief set take over.) A real fleet system MIGHT save it.
LAST THOUGHT:
Captain Picard: Welcome Cadet. Now that's you've reached the age of 14, you are in command of the Federation Flagship. It comes with all the latest technology and weaponry. Please invite your friends to the bridge to imitate sexual movements on each other. And be sure to castigate anyone who questions this state of affairs.
Ensign: Thanks baldy.
Now think about the set that is attracted to a STAR TREK game. Do you think they are going to be attracted to an environment dominated by that set? I'd suggest they want to feel like they are in Starfleet. And Fleets, properly structured, can help provide that. As of now, its not working.
If they've only played for a week, they're probably not on an alt with a sponsorship. :P
STO Resources: <Ship Comparison - All Tiers + Small Craft + Hangar Pets> <Damage Resistance>
<R&D + Upgrade Costs> <Duty Officer Finder> <Suliban Doff Reqs> <Fleet Costs> <Rep Costs>
<Keybind Tour the Galaxy> <Fleet / Armada Management> <Currency Exchange> <Other STO Links>
This game is a MMO, churn happens. In fact MMOs have a fairly high rate of churn. Trying to pin players leaving on any one thing is a task in futility. Some leave cause they are board, or don't like the direction of the game, or maybe they met someone and are more interested in their relationship then playing, or they got a new job and don't have the time anymore, or maybe they are tired of their fleet leader making terrible suggestions about the fleet system on the forums and decided to leave.
The fleet system isn't perfect, Certainly small fleets have issues getting enough resources for the inputs, and large fleet have issues getting fleet credits to buy the stuff they have unlocked. Dil, for being a major, and gated, currency, gets a rather terrible exchange rate for Fleet credits, and Doffs are another issue, the amount needed should either be reduced so doff recruitment can more easily cover it, or they need to also get a higher fleet credit payout, or maybe a bit of both.
What the Fleet system doesn't need to silly restrictions that wouldn't actually prevent the any of the things you think have hampered your fleet, but you can't provide any real proof that is why you have had your problems, that is just your wild guess. Instead they would just make them take longer to do, and would instead make it harder for large fleets that maintain multiple fleets from being able to shuffle players around in order to try and overcome some of the issues with size caps and FC earning.
Seriously? I mean, Really? Are you mental? I'm sorry, but it had to be asked. All your ideas for changing the current Fleet system are just insane. I am in 4 Fleets on Holodeck. I am Fleet Leader in a Fed and a KDF Fleet and Senior Officer in a Fed & KDF Fleet. The 2 Fleets that I am Fleet Leader, they are mostly for RP purposes and are very low tiered, so lets leave them out of it.....The 2 Fleets where I am a Senior Officer in, I have been with them for almost 2 years now and these fleets were NOT my first fleets. Actually, they were my 3rd, the first two having fleet leaders that felt that no one could buy ANYTHING until they had contributed over 1 Million in FC among other silly rules!!! So, I left those fleets and found The Phoenix Division and The House of the Phoenix. They welcomed me and made me feel like I was part of a family. Our Leaders are very active and very helpful, especially to new members. In these 2 fleets, I have a total of 18 characters. About split half Fed and half KDF. Now, with this new idea of yours, lets just hypothetically say the Leaders go MIA and the Fleet stagnates (sorry One, trying to make a point :P ) and I want to leave and either join my lower level Fleets or join new ones. With YOUR system, all the Fleet gear that I have EARNED is now worthless. WHAT!?!?!?! Really? I don't think so. Why should I be punished because the Fleet that I was in fell apart? Or, let's say that my Fleet Leaders decided to kick everyone and sell the Fleet? Don't say it can't happen, I have seen it before. Again, I am being punished for something that is NOT my fault. And yes, Cryptic instituted those silly rules a while back to prevent that. But, that is only to STOP the Leader Ranks and Promotions. I can be kicked right now without ANY timer. But, I digress.
As to the comments that I quoted.....I happen to be 40 years old & I have fought and bleed for this country, please do not call me an anarchist/thief. Everything I have, I have worked my TRIBBLE off for. Just because someone decides to help out those that want help, it does not make them anarchist/thieves. I think you need to take a closer look at your own Fleet, stop worrying about what other people are doing and remember this one simple fact......
THIS IS A VIDEO GAME!!!! NOT A JOB!!! Go have fun and quit worrying!
Its not a wild guess. Its what I saw happen. As in, players saying "The Fleet is pretty much irrelevant now that I can get gear without it." Then quitting the game a month later.
I question the value of Mega Fleets anyway. What, are you buddies with all 10,000 members? No, most are there to get the gear.
What you call "issues" with FC are limits built into the system that would naturally keep Fleet system from becoming an oligopoly, rather than a thriving free market. (If the devs forsaw this and encouraged it, I will stand corrected.)
Cumon I was being tong-in-cheek in response to the communist comment. The Capt. Picard thing didn't tip you off? (Although I am a bit curious as to why you're so defensive).
But I'm glad we've dispensed with the civility. Always very charming.
So first they ignore you, then that laugh at you, then they attack you, then....
If the parties agree to the terms beforehand then it's not a hack or a trick, it's an agreement.
Hope that helps.
I joined before there was ever Fleet gear, and I joined a big fleet to ensure there would be people to talk to. I could just chat on Zone, but our Fleet serves as a quality filter since members are required to follow our own internal code of conduct, and by using our own channel we're able to chat across maps and in-game Fleets.
I highly doubt anyone joins us just for gear, since there's a 2-week probationary period before access is granted. Unless they're very patient, they could have just joined another Fleet with more immediate access.
I believe people join our Fleet because we are well structured and very organized, with a leadership and officer corp that takes their responsibilities seriously. We have an amazing website, and we're provided with nice rank collars, signatures, and avatars.
Certainly we did have one or two people who joined solely for gear, which was what forced us to implement the 2 week probationary period, but most members (especially now) are part of our little community because it's a nice place to be, not because they just want gear.
But I also acquired some gear from the NoP channel but STILL kept donating to the fleet projects inspite of it. I personally didn't like the idea that I had to ask for access repeatedly. (Some were really cool, some wouldn't even invite you simply because they didn't like your screen name.)