Eddington was an integral leader of the Maquis, as stated in Blaze of Glory.
Also. There is no such group as the "maRquis". And I have no idea who you're talking about with "Section 47"... I'd assume you mean Section 31, but that's not what I'm talking about.
I'm talking about the Cardassian terrorists, led by Kira and Damar.
Yes I meant section 31..
And Kira and damars organization did not take down the dominion. In fact it was erased before it could achieve anything other then acquiring the energy damping weapon.
Damar just managed to cause a civil unrest that combined with 3 empires, the side turning cardassian military as a consequence of that unrest and section 31s questionable effort.
Now you're making unfounded assumptions. If you have no evidence, for the purposes of this discussion, it didn't happen.
I make no assumptions at all. You make an assumption by speaking of peace while you simply do not know that. Which is what I pointed out.
Edit:
I can't remember anything about Eddington being the general leader and if didn't find anything supporting that on memory alpha.
So if that is mentioned there... It would be an example of incredibly stupid writing since that contradicts the way the maquis works entirely.
Yes I meant section 31..
And Kira and damars organization did not take down the dominion. In fact it was erased before it could achieve anything other then acquiring the energy damping weapon.
Damar just managed to cause a civil unrest that combined with 3 empires, the side turning cardassian military as a consequence of that unrest and section 31s questionable effort.
So, what you're saying is that a loose terrorist organization can take advantage of conflicts on multiple fronts to sway the course of events.
I make no assumptions at all. You make an assumption by speaking of peace while you simply do not know that. Which is what I pointed out.
For every military action that you assume the Klingons do or not face without evidence, then you can assume the same of the Cardassians. Assuming peace in the absense of evidence (for both sides) is the same as simply assuming a zero sum difference.
So, what you're saying is that a loose terrorist organization can take advantage of conflicts on multiple fronts to sway the course of events.
Hmm... sounds like a good fit the STO universe.
Not really... Our current enemy's do not work like the dominion or the cardassian union at all.
They are completely alien and just shoot...
For every military action that you assume the Klingons do or not face without evidence, then you can assume the same of the Cardassians. Assuming peace in the absense of evidence (for both sides) is the same as simply assuming a zero sum difference.
I didn't assume anything about the cardassians at all. I just commented that the loss of the gamma quadrant fleet is not very severe. Anything else is based on what has been said.
Also: before way if the warrior we only on occasion "met" with the Klingons and only got short insight on what they were up to (which included, again, a civil war that was way more bloody then anything we know happening to the cardassians before the war)
The cardassians on the other hand... We had ds9 playing for 5 years before the dominion war right next to the cardassians which gave us a "relatively" clear picture on what they were up to in that time.
The dishonorable slithering ROMULANS were able to start a Klingon Civil War! You don't think a noble and warrior-like, scrappy, against-the-odds force of ragtag defiant dissidents could divide the unpredictable and inconsistent Klingon leadership?
Romulan Star Empire.........Maquis terrorists >.>
Romulan Star Empire.........Maquis terrorists <.<
Gul Dukat led a political alliance with Dominion. You have no evidence of a shot ever having been fired once they departed from the bajoran wormhole as allies.
Neurons. Haz u got them? They come in little fibers that are supposed to be in a big cluster in that empty void inside your skull.
You are completely and utterly wrong. Gul Dukat was a rogue operator at that point. He was not acting with the support of the legitimate Cardassian government, and had not been since he stole that BoP to play guerrilla against the KDF (the whole reason he took that BoP was because the Detapa Council wouldn't let him go on the attack with their backing). The Dominion overthrew the Detapa Council so it could install Dukat as their puppet dictator, by his agreement. This was all right there in "By Inferno's Light".
Now we get to that critical thinking thing you apparently skipped over in elementary school. Logically, not all of the Cardassian Guard is going to roll over and allow their government to be overthrown at the behest of a rogue element (that being Dukat, as previously proven). This means that the Dominion is going to be fighting an insurgency closer to home for at least a little while, in addition to kicking the Klingons out. And yet they still found time and troops to turn the Maquis into a bad memory inside of a week after entering the Alpha Quadrant.
Right. The dominion made easy work of the KDF on it's own. You're only advancing the argument that the KDF is weak compared to the Dominion here.
That sound you heard a few hours ago was my point cleanly missing your apparently empty head. I was pointing out that, logically, since the Dominion were able to roll up the entire Maquis organization in short order with most of their (not that numerous at the time) forces deployed on other fronts, logically the Maquis don't do well when the other side takes the gloves off. If there's one warfare concept the Klingons do not grok, it's the concept of a "limited war". It's all or nothing. The Dominion likewise does not do a limited war, and look what happened when their leftover troops turned that on the Maquis.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Neurons. Haz u got them? They come in little fibers that are supposed to be in a big cluster in that empty void inside your skull.
You are completely and utterly wrong. Gul Dukat was a rogue operator at that point. He was not acting with the support of the legitimate Cardassian government, and had not been since he stole that BoP to play guerrilla against the KDF (the whole reason he took that BoP was because the Detapa Council wouldn't let him go on the attack with their backing). The Dominion overthrew the Detapa Council so it could install Dukat as their puppet dictator, by his agreement. This was all right there in "By Inferno's Light".
Now we get to that critical thinking thing you apparently skipped over in elementary school. Logically, not all of the Cardassian Guard is going to roll over and allow their government to be overthrown at the behest of a rogue element (that being Dukat, as previously proven). This means that the Dominion is going to be fighting an insurgency closer to home for at least a little while, in addition to kicking the Klingons out. And yet they still found time and troops to turn the Maquis into a bad memory inside of a week after entering the Alpha Quadrant.
Again, you have no evidence of any of this. Conjecture wrapped in ad-hominim. Your claims of logic are as hollow as the Klingon Empire's claims of honor.
That sound you heard a few hours ago was my point cleanly missing your apparently empty head. I was pointing out that, logically, since the Dominion were able to roll up the entire Maquis organization in short order with most of their (not that numerous at the time) forces deployed on other fronts,
Again, no evidence whatsoever. But more ad-hominim. If you actually made a good point under all of that, maybe I could talk about that...
logically the Maquis don't do well when the other side takes the gloves off. If there's one warfare concept the Klingons do not grok, it's the concept of a "limited war". It's all or nothing. The Dominion likewise does not do a limited war, and look what happened when they turned that on the Maquis.
Again, interestingly, it was a terrorist organization that ultimately led to the Dominion's downfall. They capitalized on a weak moment.
Now, with the Klingons (who, again, are not the Dominion) currently engaged on multiple fronts in STO (which we actually DO have evidence of), they would be hard pressed to 'take the gloves off' against a terrorist force. The atmosphere is ideal for one to thrive and the stars are beautifully aligned in their favor.
Now, do you actually care to make a real logical point, or do you just want to make ad-hominims and make hollow claims of logic?
Again, interestingly, it was a terrorist organization that ultimately led to the Dominion's downfall. They capitalized on a weak moment.
Again, damars cell did not add much to the war and was erased long before the dominion fell.
Damar himself had a minor role in the end, his cell did not.
Now, with the Klingons (who, again, are not the Dominion) currently engaged on multiple fronts in STO (which we actually DO have evidence of), they would be hard pressed to 'take the gloves off' against a terrorist force. The atmosphere is ideal for one to thrive and the stars are beautifully aligned in their favor.
Now, do you actually care to make a real logical point, or do you just want to make ad-hominims and make hollow claims of logic?
How about you starting to care about real logic?
Klingons can be engaged on as many fronts as they want.
Maquis like terrorists do not have much military power. The Klingons don't need to devote major resources do put them down, they just need to be reckless. Like they always are when fighting.
Again, interestingly, it was a terrorist organization that ultimately led to the Dominion's downfall. They capitalized on a weak moment.
Utterly wrong. When Legate Damar went rogue, he basically resigned his position of the leader of the Cardassian Union publicly displaying his sole goal to drive off the Dominion and liberate Cardassia from what was evidently to everyone becomming more of an occupation than an actual alliance. If you know anything about Cardassians, you'll know how that happens to reflect on the general population and the military commanders of the Cardassian forces.
And no, it was not a terrorist organization that led to the Dominion's downfall - it was the entire Cardassian space armada that switched sides in the decisive battle of the DW.
Once again, Cardassian Union =/= Maquis terrorists.
Again, you have no evidence of any of this. Conjecture wrapped in ad-hominim. Your claims of logic are as hollow as the Klingon Empire's claims of honor.
People throw around the term "ad hominem" all the time on the Internet without having a damn clue what it means. Including an insult in the argument does not invalidate the argument as long as the argument is itself factually and logically sound.
Secondly, watch the episodes in question again, please.
DS9: "Return to Grace". Dukat captures a Bird-of-Prey. The Detapa Council, at that point the legitimate Cardassian government, refuses to use the intelligence thus gathered to hit the Klingons militarily. Dukat and crew go AWOL and start their own little guerrilla war.
DUKAT: "There was a time when the mere mention of my race inspired fear. And now... we're a beaten people. Afraid to fight back because we're afraid to lose what little is left."
KIRA: "That's not the Cardassians I know."
DUKAT: "What Cardassians? Don't you see, Major? They're paralyzed. They're beaten and defeated. I am the only Cardassian left, and if no one else will stand against the Klingons, I will."
Ergo, Dukat was no longer a legal representative of the Cardassian government or people, but a rogue operator.
DS9: "By Inferno's Light". Dukat reveals he has been negotiating with the Dominion behind everyone's back. He'll be their puppet ruler, giving them a strong foothold in the Alpha Quadrant, in exchange for them kicking the Klingons out of Cardassian space. Next time we meet Dukat, he outright states that the Dominion overthrew the Detapa Council to install him as sole ruler of Cardassia. Dominion forces trash the Klingons and simultaneously obliterate every Maquis-aligned colony in the DMZ.
There's your evidence, book, chapter and verse. Which means either A) you didn't actually watch the episodes you're getting your evidence from, or you're an idiot.
Again, no evidence whatsoever. But more ad-hominim. If you actually made a good point under all of that, maybe I could talk about that...
The evidence is the episode scripts combined with a little critical thinking. It's not even that hard if you take off your idiot fanboi glasses and evaluate the situation dispassionately. The Cardassians' hat is national pride and service to the state. But this gets interpreted differently by each Cardassian. Ergo, some of them are going to remain loyal to the Detapa Council when the Dominion turns up and says that Dukat has arranged for them to join the Dominion. Ergo, not all of them are going to roll over and let the Dominion come in, because they won't see it as being for the good of Cardassia. Ergo, there's going to be fighting. Ergo, the Dominion will need to divert forces to the fighting. At the same time, they're upholding their agreement with Dukat to kick out the Klingons. Ergo, the Dominion was not devoting its entire force to steamrolling the Maquis (because a full-scale naval fleet operating within their territory is a more immediate threat to their foothold than a bunch of terrorists off in the boonies). Ergo, the Maquis are not capable of standing up to a tiny fraction of the forces available to a Tier 1 superpower. QED.
Again, interestingly, it was a terrorist organization that ultimately led to the Dominion's downfall. They capitalized on a weak moment.
And then the exact moment they got good intel on that organization, they all but flattened it in one fell swoop.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
People throw around the term "ad hominem" all the time on the Internet without having a damn clue what it means. Including an insult in the argument does not invalidate the argument as long as the argument is itself factually and logically sound.
It means to the person. You've made a number of them, and I've correctly identified them.
I've also explicitly stated that IF you actually included some logically sound points in your ad-hominims, it would be worth discussing, but you haven't.
So, that you for reiterating a point I've already made.
Secondly, watch the episodes in question again, please.
DS9: "Return to Grace". Dukat captures a Bird-of-Prey. The Detapa Council, at that point the legitimate Cardassian government, refuses to use the intelligence thus gathered to hit the Klingons militarily. Dukat and crew go AWOL and start their own little guerrilla war.
Ergo, Dukat was no longer a legal representative of the Cardassian government or people, but a rogue operator.
DS9: "By Inferno's Light". Dukat reveals he has been negotiating with the Dominion behind everyone's back. He'll be their puppet ruler, giving them a strong foothold in the Alpha Quadrant, in exchange for them kicking the Klingons out of Cardassian space. Next time we meet Dukat, he outright states that the Dominion overthrew the Detapa Council to install him as sole ruler of Cardassia. Dominion forces trash the Klingons and simultaneously obliterate every Maquis-aligned colony in the DMZ.
Total conjecture. You're grazing over so many other explanations for that quote that it's amazing. You've decided the interpretation you like best, and with no evidence to suggest it's correct; you're ignoring any others.
The more logical explanation is that Dukat's successful warfare got him re-instated as a Gul, and it brought him back into favor with the government and the people. He then used that political capital to enact changes and garner power, which he used to establish the union with the Dominion politically.
Being that we have absolutely no evidence or talk of a violent overthrow, we have no reason to believe that there was one.
There's your evidence, book, chapter and verse. Which means either A) you didn't actually watch the episodes you're getting your evidence from, or you're an idiot.
No, I just don't fill in the gaps with my own illogical flights of fancy.
Oh, and there's another ad-hominim that lacks any creamy logical filling.
The evidence is the episode scripts combined with a little critical thinking. It's not even that hard if you take off your idiot fanboi glasses and evaluate the situation dispassionately.
The only person getting 'passionate' here is yourself, man. That's evidenced by your continual ad-hominims and bitter, frail attitude toward disagreement.
The Cardassians' hat is national pride and service to the state. But this gets interpreted differently by each Cardassian. Ergo, some of them are going to remain loyal to the Detapa Council when the Dominion turns up and says that Dukat has arranged for them to join the Dominion.
First 'ergo' you've gone wrong on. Dissenting with a change in government does not mean one does not go along with it.
Ergo, the Dominion will need to divert forces to the fighting.
Fourth 'ergo' you've gone wrong on. You have no evidence that there was resistance widespread enough to warrant a military response. CERTAINLY no evidence that there was resistance enough to warrant a widespread or all-encompassing military response.
At the same time, they're upholding their agreement with Dukat to kick out the Klingons. Ergo, the Dominion was not devoting its entire force to steamrolling the Maquis (because a full-scale naval fleet operating within their territory is a more immediate threat to their foothold than a bunch of terrorists off in the boonies).
Fifth 'ergo' you've gone wrong on. You have no evidence of how Dominion forces were deployed other than that their presence allowed the Cardassians to push back the Klingons.
The Maquis were a pack of self-entitled whiners. They weren't forced from their homes or slaughtered like the refugees of Syria. The Federation offered to re-house them and they refused because they decided they should continue to live in contested space. What a load of TRIBBLE. If you decide that fighting for the territorial location of your "home" is more important than a lasting peace between two nations after years of bloodshed and death, then you deserve to be oppressed by the other side that now owns the territory you live in.
Total conjecture. You're grazing over so many other explanations for that quote that it's amazing. You've decided the interpretation you like best, and with no evidence to suggest it's correct; you're ignoring any others.
The more logical explanation is that Dukat's successful warfare got him re-instated as a Gul, and it brought him back into favor with the government and the people. He then used that political capital to enact changes and garner power, which he used to establish the union with the Dominion politically.
Being that we have absolutely no evidence or talk of a violent overthrow, we have no reason to believe that there was one.
Wow. You call me on making claims without hard onscreen evidence and then do the same thing. Pot, I have a kettle you should become acquainted with.
Please look up the principle of parsimony, which is more commonly referred to as Occam's Razor. In simplest terms, the explanation that requires the fewest conditions is usually correct. Great essay on it you should read. Go read it. I'll wait.
Read it yet? Good, because there's a test coming. Word problem. I know, we all hate word problems. Deal with it.
Under the logical principle of parsimony, with the starting condition being that the Detapa Council wanted to stop the Klingons with diplomacy as was stated in "Return to Grace", which explanation for Dukat's pro-Dominion takeover requires the fewest conditions to be satisfied before the known end result, that being Dukat as pro-Dominion dictator, occurs?
Dukat deserts his post to fight the Klingons. Dukat approaches the Dominion behind everybody's back. Dominion agrees. Dominion follows its typical procedure and just conquers Cardassia so they can install Dukat as their puppet.
Number of logical terms? Four.
Dukat deserts his post to fight the Klingons. Dukat wins lots of victories*. Dukat approaches Detapa Council with idea to ally with Dominion. Dukat is pardoned for desertion and violation of direct orders -- bolded for emphasis; we've seen what the Cardassian justice system is like -- and is authorized to approach the Dominion. Dominion agrees. Dominion comes in and takes over. Dukat becomes sole ruler of Cardassia ... somehow.
Number of terms? Seven. Oh, and, uh, what the heck happened to the Detapa Council between steps six and seven? Explain that one to me.
The principle of parsimony supports the backroom deal and violent overthrow theory, and as a nice bonus is more consistent with the Dominion's demonstrated disdain for democratic institutions. (For starters, Weyoun 5's line when Jake Sisko mentioned freedom of the press: "Please, tell me you're not that naive.")
And remember what Cardassian justice is like? You're already guilty before you walk in the door, and the only sentence is death. The moment Dukat went gallivanting off on his own, he and everyone under his command was guilty of desertion and was in violation of legal orders, both of which are crimes under every system of military law ever written. Do the math.
* Oh and here's that pesky pot and kettle thing. Since I'm apparently restricted to only citing what we saw onscreen, the only victories we ever saw Dukat win with that BoP was A) when he captured the thing, and when he blindsided that sentry ship at Ty'Gokor in "Apocalypse Rising". You have no evidence he ever won any other fights. Just like you have no evidence that Dukat had received legitimate orders to negotiate with the Dominion. We only know for certain that he did negotiate with the Dominion.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander, as they say.
Sixth 'ergo' you've gone wrong on. The Maquis stood up to the Cardassians for years. So you're just factually wrong here.
See the second post I made in this thread. The Cardassians didn't take the Maquis seriously for a year and a half, and then right when season 4 hit, their intelligence apparatus got itself summarily slaughtered and their entire society was thrown into chaos by an internal revolution and then an outside invasion, all within a few weeks of each other. Even if they suddenly did start taking the Maquis seriously, they now weren't up to fighting them or frankly anyone else because their entire C&C apparatus was in a shambles.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Under the logical principle of parsimony, with the starting condition being that the Detapa Council wanted to stop the Klingons with diplomacy as was stated in "Return to Grace", which explanation for Dukat's pro-Dominion takeover requires the fewest conditions to be satisfied before the known end result, that being Dukat as pro-Dominion dictator, occurs?
Dukat deserts his post to fight the Klingons. Dukat approaches the Dominion behind everybody's back. Dominion agrees. Dominion follows its typical procedure and just conquers Cardassia so they can install Dukat as their puppet.
What I find funny is that even with your false dichotomy, if I accept the scenario that you're narrowly confining the argument to, it still does not necessarily require any mass military action by the Dominion.
When you define one step of logical progression as "Follows typical procedures" it can just as easily refer to a simple political overthrow, as it can be a convoluted full scale military coup. See, you're trying to cram about 200 steps of logical progression into that phrase... and you can continue to reframe the debate under those false pretenses all you want, but hey: let's go with simple. I like simple. Political overthrow, for instance, is simple. There's no evidence of complicated military fronts and full scale warfare. It's much simpler than that.
What I find funny is that even with your false dichotomy, if I accept the scenario that you're narrowly confining the argument to, it still does not necessarily require any mass military action by the Dominion.
When you define one step of logical progression as "Follows typical procedures" it can just as easily refer to a simple political overthrow, as it can be a convoluted full scale military coup. See, you're trying to cram about 200 steps of logical progression into that phrase... and you can continue to reframe the debate under those false pretenses all you want, but hey: let's go with simple. I like simple. Political overthrow, for instance, is simple. There's no evidence of complicated military fronts and full scale warfare. It's much simpler than that.
So "typical procedures". I like that.
Wrong about logical terms yet again. This is not a false dichotomy. Those are simply the only two scenarios that have been floated so far so they're the two I used. Mine's the first one, yours is the second. If you would like to propose a new one that matches the available evidence, help yourself.
And yours has no fewer oversimplified steps than mine. For example, what are all these victories Dukat supposedly won and how militarily complex and decisive were they? How much bargaining and political arm-twisting went into getting the Detapa Council, a democratic legislature, to debate whether Dukat, who is at this time a criminal under military law as previously noted, can be legally made their negotiator? (We know from real life how hard it can be to get legislators to agree on things that the majority of their constituents are actually in favor of.) Why would the Council, which wants to get the Klingons to leave via diplomacy, agree to house and supply Dominion troops from local resources (which are so depleted at this point, by the way, that the Federation was shipping them industrial replicators to take up the slack)? Is the Council capable of overriding the Cardassian judicial system to get Dukat pardoned or acquitted?
And again, what happened to the Council after the Dominion came in? Because every time there was a change in the Cardie government through the end of the Dominion War it was just a matter of swapping in a new legate to be the Founders' puppet dictator. The Council was never mentioned once after the Dominion came in and no democratic political process was ever alluded to. They just planted a new TRIBBLE on the throne on Weyoun's say-so.
By contrast, my scenario just requires them to beam a few squads of Jem'Hadar into the Council chambers and shoot everybody in the building, then purge anybody in the Cardassian military who refuses to go along with it or is even likely to refuse. (Dukat would have some helpful knowledge here and they now have access to Cardassian databases anyway.) And some of these military men are going to be on deployment, or because of Murphy's Laws are going to make it to their ships before the Jem'Hadar get to them, which means they need to get taken out by naval action of one form or another.
Then they just give Dukat a camera so he can make that fancy inauguration speech about the Dominion not being the enemy and how he's doing this for everyone's kids, blah blah blah. It's an outside conquest in all but name, which is why I used the word "conquers" in my last post.
And you still haven't answered the question of which scenario is more consistent with typical Dominion behavior. Burden of proof falls to you, sir. Anyone else want to jump in?
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I don't think the Federation actually lost any territory during the war. The only major shift was Khitomer, and that was between the Romulans and Klingons, not Feds. If the Maquis were to come back in some fashion I'd rather it be former Maquis members struggling to reintegrate, with some of them perhaps offering their services to train other militaries in guerrilla warfare and survival with limited supplies in isolated environs, like, say, the Delta Quadrant.
Its irrelevant, the Maquis were born of a specific set of circumstances that doesnt apply in the current Federation-Klingon War because WAR, the Federation did not started to remove Federation citizens off worlds that were to be given to the Klingons, the opposite happened were the Klingons demanded and the Federation said no.
And that's the main reason I'm so annoyed with the execution of the armistice. The war didn't have any-damn-thing to do with Undine infiltrating the Federation and never did.
Upon rereading The Path to 2409, what J'mpok got up to wasn't just a land grab, it was an attempt at full-on ethnic cleansing. (Vol. 25, Ch. 3 through Vol. 26 Ch. 1-2) That's a war crime: he was deliberately targeting Federation civilians for forcible removal. And then we get all this stuff from J'mpok about how he wanted the war: "Peace was the death of the Klingon Empire. Thankfully, it was a mistake that we caught in time." (Vol. 28, Ch. 1)
And that's why if Cryptic actually cared about story consistency, this "peace" is only going to last as long as it takes the Undine to wipe themselves out by pointlessly throwing everything they've got at the Dyson spheres.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
And that's the main reason I'm so annoyed with the execution of the armistice. The war didn't have any-damn-thing to do with Undine infiltrating the Federation and never did.
Except in establishing the initial splitting force that LEAD to the eventual acts of incredible aggression that immediately precipitated the war. History doesn't exist in a vacuum, things don't just happen. There's cause and effect and 20 steps down the chain you might have the classic "moment of history" but where it got its start is still back through the less regarded chapters (which mind you Cryptic has regarded as well as any dev working on a popular Sci-fi MMO can be expected to.)
J'mpok may have been a TRIBBLE, but he was a TRIBBLE operating in a political and social climate that the Undine (in no small part) created.
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Except in establishing the initial splitting force that LEAD to the eventual acts of incredible aggression that immediately precipitated the war. History doesn't exist in a vacuum, things don't just happen. There's cause and effect and 20 steps down the chain you might have the classic "moment of history" but where it got its start is still back through the less regarded chapters (which mind you Cryptic has regarded as well as any dev working on a popular Sci-fi MMO can be expected to.)
J'mpok may have been a TRIBBLE, but he was a TRIBBLE operating in a political and social climate that the Undine (in no small part) created.
Nope. Unless one of their infiltrators was responsible for the attack on the IKS Quv, they didn't even come up until the final stage of the Klingon-Gorn War when Ja'rod randomly turned up on Qo'noS supposedly carrying proof that the Gorn government was infiltrated. You will also notice that nowhere in the entire document is there any notion that the Klingons actually told anyone else what this proof was. This is kind of a running pattern, as in the incident on P'Jem where the Fed PC can ask for the Klingon captain's evidence and he instead opens fire. Not exactly conducive to getting people to act the way you want, wouldn't you say?
As a matter of fact, it was the Klingons who were infiltrated first, and the Letheans who solved the problem.
The Federation does not go to war willy-nilly unlike the Klingons. They need a really, seriously good reason to pull out all the stops, and nowhere is it ever mentioned that the Klingons ever gave anyone but themselves that reason.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
The whole Maquis concept was idiotic. Here are some colonies in Cardassian space, under Cardassian jurisdiction, that are launching attacks against the Caradassians. But because the populations were human and former Fed colonies, it becomes the Federation's responsibility to deal with them? (What were the Cardy authorities doing all this time exactly?) If the Feds assisted the colonies they were basically restarting a war with the Cardassians (and on behalf of people who didn't want to be a part of the Federation no less, that nonsensical "at least the Borg are honest" speech and such), and if they didn't assist they were evil misers ignoring the suffering of the innocent. I'm not entirely sure what the Maquis ever actually wanted, other than to kill Cardassians and whine a lot. It didn't make sense then, it'd make less sense now.
100% agreed. The whole premise was more than pointless.
I think they just wanted somekind of ambiguous rebel people to experiment new storys with. But i never really had any sympathy or negative feelings about them, i rather found them pretty annoying compared to the real danger Trek crews faced (romulans, Klingons, borg etc.).
I was glad when they finally stopped with dealing with the Marquis altogether.
On the other hand it would have been cool if they had created a situation which would have made the progationists quit Starfleet and rebel themselves for a good reason. Trek could have made a step away from being bureaucratic and regulation bound, towards a more adventurous approach. (just like if Kirk and his crew wouldn't have returned to earth in STIV, to become somekind of freelancers, like a A-Team in Space. )
In STO terms, a neutral or renegarde faction would make much more sense IMO, since we are all using Alien tech and Ships on a regular basis, instead of Starfleet (ROM or KDF) technology.
What about creating the Nyberrite Alliance ?
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Comments
Yes I meant section 31..
And Kira and damars organization did not take down the dominion. In fact it was erased before it could achieve anything other then acquiring the energy damping weapon.
Damar just managed to cause a civil unrest that combined with 3 empires, the side turning cardassian military as a consequence of that unrest and section 31s questionable effort.
I make no assumptions at all. You make an assumption by speaking of peace while you simply do not know that. Which is what I pointed out.
Edit:
I can't remember anything about Eddington being the general leader and if didn't find anything supporting that on memory alpha.
So if that is mentioned there... It would be an example of incredibly stupid writing since that contradicts the way the maquis works entirely.
So, what you're saying is that a loose terrorist organization can take advantage of conflicts on multiple fronts to sway the course of events.
Hmm... sounds like a good fit the STO universe.
For every military action that you assume the Klingons do or not face without evidence, then you can assume the same of the Cardassians. Assuming peace in the absense of evidence (for both sides) is the same as simply assuming a zero sum difference.
Not really... Our current enemy's do not work like the dominion or the cardassian union at all.
They are completely alien and just shoot...
I didn't assume anything about the cardassians at all. I just commented that the loss of the gamma quadrant fleet is not very severe. Anything else is based on what has been said.
Also: before way if the warrior we only on occasion "met" with the Klingons and only got short insight on what they were up to (which included, again, a civil war that was way more bloody then anything we know happening to the cardassians before the war)
The cardassians on the other hand... We had ds9 playing for 5 years before the dominion war right next to the cardassians which gave us a "relatively" clear picture on what they were up to in that time.
Romulan Star Empire.........Maquis terrorists >.>
Romulan Star Empire.........Maquis terrorists <.<
Romulan Star Empire.........Maquis terrorists....
Notice the difference? :rolleyes:
You are completely and utterly wrong. Gul Dukat was a rogue operator at that point. He was not acting with the support of the legitimate Cardassian government, and had not been since he stole that BoP to play guerrilla against the KDF (the whole reason he took that BoP was because the Detapa Council wouldn't let him go on the attack with their backing). The Dominion overthrew the Detapa Council so it could install Dukat as their puppet dictator, by his agreement. This was all right there in "By Inferno's Light".
Now we get to that critical thinking thing you apparently skipped over in elementary school. Logically, not all of the Cardassian Guard is going to roll over and allow their government to be overthrown at the behest of a rogue element (that being Dukat, as previously proven). This means that the Dominion is going to be fighting an insurgency closer to home for at least a little while, in addition to kicking the Klingons out. And yet they still found time and troops to turn the Maquis into a bad memory inside of a week after entering the Alpha Quadrant.
That sound you heard a few hours ago was my point cleanly missing your apparently empty head. I was pointing out that, logically, since the Dominion were able to roll up the entire Maquis organization in short order with most of their (not that numerous at the time) forces deployed on other fronts, logically the Maquis don't do well when the other side takes the gloves off. If there's one warfare concept the Klingons do not grok, it's the concept of a "limited war". It's all or nothing. The Dominion likewise does not do a limited war, and look what happened when their leftover troops turned that on the Maquis.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Again, you have no evidence of any of this. Conjecture wrapped in ad-hominim. Your claims of logic are as hollow as the Klingon Empire's claims of honor.
Again, no evidence whatsoever. But more ad-hominim. If you actually made a good point under all of that, maybe I could talk about that...
Again, interestingly, it was a terrorist organization that ultimately led to the Dominion's downfall. They capitalized on a weak moment.
Now, with the Klingons (who, again, are not the Dominion) currently engaged on multiple fronts in STO (which we actually DO have evidence of), they would be hard pressed to 'take the gloves off' against a terrorist force. The atmosphere is ideal for one to thrive and the stars are beautifully aligned in their favor.
Now, do you actually care to make a real logical point, or do you just want to make ad-hominims and make hollow claims of logic?
Again, damars cell did not add much to the war and was erased long before the dominion fell.
Damar himself had a minor role in the end, his cell did not.
How about you starting to care about real logic?
Klingons can be engaged on as many fronts as they want.
Maquis like terrorists do not have much military power. The Klingons don't need to devote major resources do put them down, they just need to be reckless. Like they always are when fighting.
Pointless link is being completely pointless.
Utterly wrong. When Legate Damar went rogue, he basically resigned his position of the leader of the Cardassian Union publicly displaying his sole goal to drive off the Dominion and liberate Cardassia from what was evidently to everyone becomming more of an occupation than an actual alliance. If you know anything about Cardassians, you'll know how that happens to reflect on the general population and the military commanders of the Cardassian forces.
And no, it was not a terrorist organization that led to the Dominion's downfall - it was the entire Cardassian space armada that switched sides in the decisive battle of the DW.
Once again, Cardassian Union =/= Maquis terrorists.
Secondly, watch the episodes in question again, please.
There's your evidence, book, chapter and verse. Which means either A) you didn't actually watch the episodes you're getting your evidence from, or
The evidence is the episode scripts combined with a little critical thinking. It's not even that hard if you take off your idiot fanboi glasses and evaluate the situation dispassionately. The Cardassians' hat is national pride and service to the state. But this gets interpreted differently by each Cardassian. Ergo, some of them are going to remain loyal to the Detapa Council when the Dominion turns up and says that Dukat has arranged for them to join the Dominion. Ergo, not all of them are going to roll over and let the Dominion come in, because they won't see it as being for the good of Cardassia. Ergo, there's going to be fighting. Ergo, the Dominion will need to divert forces to the fighting. At the same time, they're upholding their agreement with Dukat to kick out the Klingons. Ergo, the Dominion was not devoting its entire force to steamrolling the Maquis (because a full-scale naval fleet operating within their territory is a more immediate threat to their foothold than a bunch of terrorists off in the boonies). Ergo, the Maquis are not capable of standing up to a tiny fraction of the forces available to a Tier 1 superpower. QED.
And then the exact moment they got good intel on that organization, they all but flattened it in one fell swoop.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
It means to the person. You've made a number of them, and I've correctly identified them.
I've also explicitly stated that IF you actually included some logically sound points in your ad-hominims, it would be worth discussing, but you haven't.
So, that you for reiterating a point I've already made.
Total conjecture. You're grazing over so many other explanations for that quote that it's amazing. You've decided the interpretation you like best, and with no evidence to suggest it's correct; you're ignoring any others.
The more logical explanation is that Dukat's successful warfare got him re-instated as a Gul, and it brought him back into favor with the government and the people. He then used that political capital to enact changes and garner power, which he used to establish the union with the Dominion politically.
Being that we have absolutely no evidence or talk of a violent overthrow, we have no reason to believe that there was one.
No, I just don't fill in the gaps with my own illogical flights of fancy.
Oh, and there's another ad-hominim that lacks any creamy logical filling.
The only person getting 'passionate' here is yourself, man. That's evidenced by your continual ad-hominims and bitter, frail attitude toward disagreement.
First 'ergo' you've gone wrong on. Dissenting with a change in government does not mean one does not go along with it.
Second 'ergo' you've gone wrong on. Those who do lodge objections don't necessarily have the power, or will, to object forcefully.
Third 'ergo' you've gone wrong on. 'Fighting' does not equal violence.
Fourth 'ergo' you've gone wrong on. You have no evidence that there was resistance widespread enough to warrant a military response. CERTAINLY no evidence that there was resistance enough to warrant a widespread or all-encompassing military response.
Fifth 'ergo' you've gone wrong on. You have no evidence of how Dominion forces were deployed other than that their presence allowed the Cardassians to push back the Klingons.
Sixth 'ergo' you've gone wrong on. The Maquis stood up to the Cardassians for years. So you're just factually wrong here.
Now... being that 'ergo's denote a chain of logical reasoning- your logical progression is only as strong as it's weakest link.
I'm not sure which is weakest, but I wouldn't put much weight on any of them. But I'm sure you'll have an ad-hominim to come back with.
Anyone want some of this popcorn? I have plenty and this show is getting good.
i will take some with extra butter and sult plz
system Lord Baal is dead
Popcorn for ALLLLL!
In a Three Stooges slapstick sort of way, yes it is.
Please look up the principle of parsimony, which is more commonly referred to as Occam's Razor. In simplest terms, the explanation that requires the fewest conditions is usually correct. Great essay on it you should read. Go read it. I'll wait.
Read it yet? Good, because there's a test coming. Word problem. I know, we all hate word problems. Deal with it.
Under the logical principle of parsimony, with the starting condition being that the Detapa Council wanted to stop the Klingons with diplomacy as was stated in "Return to Grace", which explanation for Dukat's pro-Dominion takeover requires the fewest conditions to be satisfied before the known end result, that being Dukat as pro-Dominion dictator, occurs?
Number of logical terms? Four.
Number of terms? Seven. Oh, and, uh, what the heck happened to the Detapa Council between steps six and seven? Explain that one to me.
The principle of parsimony supports the backroom deal and violent overthrow theory, and as a nice bonus is more consistent with the Dominion's demonstrated disdain for democratic institutions. (For starters, Weyoun 5's line when Jake Sisko mentioned freedom of the press: "Please, tell me you're not that naive.")
And remember what Cardassian justice is like? You're already guilty before you walk in the door, and the only sentence is death. The moment Dukat went gallivanting off on his own, he and everyone under his command was guilty of desertion and was in violation of legal orders, both of which are crimes under every system of military law ever written. Do the math.
* Oh and here's that pesky pot and kettle thing. Since I'm apparently restricted to only citing what we saw onscreen, the only victories we ever saw Dukat win with that BoP was A) when he captured the thing, and
What's good for the goose is good for the gander, as they say.
See the second post I made in this thread. The Cardassians didn't take the Maquis seriously for a year and a half, and then right when season 4 hit, their intelligence apparatus got itself summarily slaughtered and their entire society was thrown into chaos by an internal revolution and then an outside invasion, all within a few weeks of each other. Even if they suddenly did start taking the Maquis seriously, they now weren't up to fighting them or frankly anyone else because their entire C&C apparatus was in a shambles.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
What I find funny is that even with your false dichotomy, if I accept the scenario that you're narrowly confining the argument to, it still does not necessarily require any mass military action by the Dominion.
When you define one step of logical progression as "Follows typical procedures" it can just as easily refer to a simple political overthrow, as it can be a convoluted full scale military coup. See, you're trying to cram about 200 steps of logical progression into that phrase... and you can continue to reframe the debate under those false pretenses all you want, but hey: let's go with simple. I like simple. Political overthrow, for instance, is simple. There's no evidence of complicated military fronts and full scale warfare. It's much simpler than that.
So "typical procedures". I like that.
Wrong about logical terms yet again. This is not a false dichotomy. Those are simply the only two scenarios that have been floated so far so they're the two I used. Mine's the first one, yours is the second. If you would like to propose a new one that matches the available evidence, help yourself.
And yours has no fewer oversimplified steps than mine. For example, what are all these victories Dukat supposedly won and how militarily complex and decisive were they? How much bargaining and political arm-twisting went into getting the Detapa Council, a democratic legislature, to debate whether Dukat, who is at this time a criminal under military law as previously noted, can be legally made their negotiator? (We know from real life how hard it can be to get legislators to agree on things that the majority of their constituents are actually in favor of.) Why would the Council, which wants to get the Klingons to leave via diplomacy, agree to house and supply Dominion troops from local resources (which are so depleted at this point, by the way, that the Federation was shipping them industrial replicators to take up the slack)? Is the Council capable of overriding the Cardassian judicial system to get Dukat pardoned or acquitted?
And again, what happened to the Council after the Dominion came in? Because every time there was a change in the Cardie government through the end of the Dominion War it was just a matter of swapping in a new legate to be the Founders' puppet dictator. The Council was never mentioned once after the Dominion came in and no democratic political process was ever alluded to. They just planted a new TRIBBLE on the throne on Weyoun's say-so.
By contrast, my scenario just requires them to beam a few squads of Jem'Hadar into the Council chambers and shoot everybody in the building, then purge anybody in the Cardassian military who refuses to go along with it or is even likely to refuse. (Dukat would have some helpful knowledge here and they now have access to Cardassian databases anyway.) And some of these military men are going to be on deployment, or because of Murphy's Laws are going to make it to their ships before the Jem'Hadar get to them, which means they need to get taken out by naval action of one form or another.
Then they just give Dukat a camera so he can make that fancy inauguration speech about the Dominion not being the enemy and how he's doing this for everyone's kids, blah blah blah. It's an outside conquest in all but name, which is why I used the word "conquers" in my last post.
And you still haven't answered the question of which scenario is more consistent with typical Dominion behavior. Burden of proof falls to you, sir. Anyone else want to jump in?
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
And that's the main reason I'm so annoyed with the execution of the armistice. The war didn't have any-damn-thing to do with Undine infiltrating the Federation and never did.
Upon rereading The Path to 2409, what J'mpok got up to wasn't just a land grab, it was an attempt at full-on ethnic cleansing. (Vol. 25, Ch. 3 through Vol. 26 Ch. 1-2) That's a war crime: he was deliberately targeting Federation civilians for forcible removal. And then we get all this stuff from J'mpok about how he wanted the war: "Peace was the death of the Klingon Empire. Thankfully, it was a mistake that we caught in time." (Vol. 28, Ch. 1)
And that's why if Cryptic actually cared about story consistency, this "peace" is only going to last as long as it takes the Undine to wipe themselves out by pointlessly throwing everything they've got at the Dyson spheres.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Except in establishing the initial splitting force that LEAD to the eventual acts of incredible aggression that immediately precipitated the war. History doesn't exist in a vacuum, things don't just happen. There's cause and effect and 20 steps down the chain you might have the classic "moment of history" but where it got its start is still back through the less regarded chapters (which mind you Cryptic has regarded as well as any dev working on a popular Sci-fi MMO can be expected to.)
J'mpok may have been a TRIBBLE, but he was a TRIBBLE operating in a political and social climate that the Undine (in no small part) created.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Nope. Unless one of their infiltrators was responsible for the attack on the IKS Quv, they didn't even come up until the final stage of the Klingon-Gorn War when Ja'rod randomly turned up on Qo'noS supposedly carrying proof that the Gorn government was infiltrated. You will also notice that nowhere in the entire document is there any notion that the Klingons actually told anyone else what this proof was. This is kind of a running pattern, as in the incident on P'Jem where the Fed PC can ask for the Klingon captain's evidence and he instead opens fire. Not exactly conducive to getting people to act the way you want, wouldn't you say?
As a matter of fact, it was the Klingons who were infiltrated first, and the Letheans who solved the problem.
The Federation does not go to war willy-nilly unlike the Klingons. They need a really, seriously good reason to pull out all the stops, and nowhere is it ever mentioned that the Klingons ever gave anyone but themselves that reason.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I think they just wanted somekind of ambiguous rebel people to experiment new storys with. But i never really had any sympathy or negative feelings about them, i rather found them pretty annoying compared to the real danger Trek crews faced (romulans, Klingons, borg etc.).
I was glad when they finally stopped with dealing with the Marquis altogether.
On the other hand it would have been cool if they had created a situation which would have made the progationists quit Starfleet and rebel themselves for a good reason. Trek could have made a step away from being bureaucratic and regulation bound, towards a more adventurous approach.
(just like if Kirk and his crew wouldn't have returned to earth in STIV, to become somekind of freelancers, like a A-Team in Space.
In STO terms, a neutral or renegarde faction would make much more sense IMO, since we are all using Alien tech and Ships on a regular basis, instead of Starfleet (ROM or KDF) technology.
What about creating the Nyberrite Alliance ?