Indeeed, the Tempest Class Patrol Escort is the first light I've seen in a darkening design tunnel.
The reasons for this are all due to the Aesthetic operational design of the ship.
1. Resources aren't wasted on unnecessary fins, hull protrusions or a multi-layered hull. The central pylon is actually thick enough to be a deck. Cargo or Aux systems maybe?
2. The engineering section is inline with the saucer section, minimising the height of the ship and providing a smaller target to enemy ships. Engineering section is thus less likely to be hit by weapons fire, increasing survivability of the ship.
3. Deflector is recessed within the saucer section and therefore less exposed to enemy ships weapons fire.
4. Design is elegant, uses 25th century textures.
While writing this post, I actually realised this thread was successful. First Fed ship released after this post was published was an attractive ship.
Beta Antares Shipyards advanced Starship development project.
CLASSIFIED
In my opinion Cryptic ship designers tend to exaggerate starfleet ship designs way too much. Sometimes there are simplay too many details, edges and weird (mis)proportions instead of clear and more appealing lines (looking at the Avenger class *cough).
The new Patrol Escort Refit has some pretty clean lines, really:
Yeah she looks surprisingly good.
I never was a fan of Cryptics partol escort design, but i must say that this one looks really good.
I think the Tempest is a good example that more round shapes and slightly more balanced proportions can do wonders.
Indeeed, the Tempest Class Patrol Escort is the first light I've seen in a darkening design tunnel.
The reasons for this are all due to the Aesthetic operational design of the ship.
1. Resources aren't wasted on unnecessary fins, hull protrusions or a multi-layered hull. The central pylon is actually thick enough to be a deck. Cargo or Aux systems maybe?
2. The engineering section is inline with the saucer section, minimising the height of the ship and providing a smaller target to enemy ships. Engineering section is thus less likely to be hit by weapons fire, increasing survivability of the ship.
3. Deflector is recessed within the saucer section and therefore less exposed to enemy ships weapons fire.
4. Design is elegant, uses 25th century textures.
While writing this post, I actually realised this thread was successful. First Fed ship released after this post was published was an attractive ship.
Good analysys imo.
I hope designs like that become a new trend at Cryptics Starfleet ship design.
I actually think about buying ship myself and make it a Beam escort.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
I had a thought; Why don't We, The Players, - specifically those of us involved in this topic - work out what we as an overall group think makes an 'attractive' Federation starship?
For example;
I, personally, prefer saucer or chevron shaped primary hulls to triangular;
I like 'flattened' engineering hulls (where they're longer and/or wider than they are tall - like the Galaxy to a degree, Intrepid and Sovereign classes) to cylindrical ones;
I actually like the 'neckless' design of the Intrepid and Sovereign classes since it provides a sleeker look.
After the Defiant and NX-Enterprise, I've grown to like the look of a saucer-integrated deflector.
I like round or oval shaped nacelles over angular ones. The integrated nacelles of the Defiant class are good, too.
I don't like fins on my starships; the ones I've seen so far (Avenger nacelles or Belleophron pylons, for example) look thin and a little flimsy, more decorative than anything else. Maybe if they were thicker and more functional looking (Integrated with Bussard Collectors or maybe additional sensor arrays - or even 'hardpoints' for energy weapons at the tips) I might feel different.
Anyone else want to share what they think makes an 'attractive' starship?
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." -- Q, TNG: "Q-Who?"
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
To me, the prettiest Fed ships are the Excelsiors and the Ambassadors. Can't really single out any one thing about them which makes them pleasant to look at. They just look like what I think a Starfleet ship ought to look like. Just like a WWII German TigerI tank looks like what a tank ought to look like.
My opinion about them has nothing to do with anything other than appearance. I also do not think the rest of the Fed ships are unattactive or anything like that. As big as Starfleet is, it is bound to have a few ugly stepsisters hiding in the back somewhere. This has more to do with form following function.
A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
I had a thought; Why don't We, The Players, - specifically those of us involved in this topic - work out what we as an overall group think makes an 'attractive' Federation starship?
For example;
I, personally, prefer saucer or chevron shaped primary hulls to triangular;
I like 'flattened' engineering hulls (where they're longer and/or wider than they are tall - like the Galaxy to a degree, Intrepid and Sovereign classes) to cylindrical ones;
I actually like the 'neckless' design of the Intrepid and Sovereign classes since it provides a sleeker look.
After the Defiant and NX-Enterprise, I've grown to like the look of a saucer-integrated deflector.
I like round or oval shaped nacelles over angular ones. The integrated nacelles of the Defiant class are good, too.
I don't like fins on my starships; the ones I've seen so far (Avenger nacelles or Belleophron pylons, for example) look thin and a little flimsy, more decorative than anything else. Maybe if they were thicker and more functional looking (Integrated with Bussard Collectors or maybe additional sensor arrays - or even 'hardpoints' for energy weapons at the tips) I might feel different.
Anyone else want to share what they think makes an 'attractive' starship?
For me the most important things are balanced proportions and elegant shapes.
I really despise angular designs like most older Cryptics designs have, like the Noble Class, Imperial Class or Hermes Class amongst many other designs.
These Ships look too "technical", filled with too many details. More round shapes would make them look much more elegant IMO.
Heres a good example of what i am talking about:
Althrough both ships feature roughly the same proportions, the lower ship looks much more elegant/better IMO.
Another thing are proportions, this is where Cryptics designers seem to have real problems in my opinion.
I don't know if it its on purpose but some ships look horribly bad proportioned.
For example the Avenger Class which has a WAY to small saucer (at least to narrow).
Other ships like the Chimera look just bad because of some real strange design desicisions like the chimeras "belly" which make a really cool looking ship look plain ugly IMO.
Cryptics designers should add just some ship parts that look different.
Personally i am not a fan of too long nacelles and extended pylons. I know i am probably the only one, but i really don't like it if a ship features "too" long nacelles, like the Excelsior or Sovereign. I never felt that it looks very advanced, especially since most TNG ships feature relatively short nacelles (Galaxy, Nebula, Intrepid, Defiant).
For me it looked really strange when they came up with the Sovereign (ST:8) and made the ship have Huge nacelles connected with fragile looking pylons, while the rest looks really sturdy.
It just feels wrong in my option.
What i like are wide ship designs. It doesn't have to look like a Galaxy Class, but designs like the Ambassador look way more "federation" like to me than a Sovereign Class.
Summarized, i would say that there are 3 things a good looking Starfleet ship should have:
1. Elegant and round/fluent looking shapes. - Not too many details and god forbit greebles.
2. Balanced proportions, or at least give the ship a center of mass that doesn't look odd. (Like the Avenger for example)
3. Neck and Pylons shouldn't look to fragile compared to the rest of the ship, instead they should look sturdy or Saucer/Nacelles should be completely integrated into the Hull/Saucer.
I think that future Starfleet ship designs should look more elegant instead of making them look like they would belong to Battlestar Galactica.
OPTIONS, Cryptics designs should always inlcude several different shaped saucers and Nacelles. I think that the ship tailor is way too underused nowadays.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
I know i am probably the only one, but i really don't like it if a ship features "too" long nacelles, like the Excelsior or Sovereign.
You *are* alone. The Excelsior is the best-looking ship in the fleet. Evah.
But I do agree the Ambassador is very "Federation". Maybe because it very closely resembles the TOS Constitution class with the round primary/secondary hulls and "fat" nacelles?
To me, the prettiest Fed ships are the Excelsiors and the Ambassadors. Can't really single out any one thing about them which makes them pleasant to look at. They just look like what I think a Starfleet ship ought to look like. Just like a WWII German TigerI tank looks like what a tank ought to look like.
My opinion about them has nothing to do with anything other than appearance. I also do not think the rest of the Fed ships are unattactive or anything like that. As big as Starfleet is, it is bound to have a few ugly stepsisters hiding in the back somewhere. This has more to do with form following function.
Same here. I've never much liked the Sovereign, Defiant, or Intrepid, because I felt they were trying too hard to look cool. Same with the various new classes seen in the Armada during the Borg battle in First Contact. I don't think they are ugly exactly, they just aren't much like what I see when I think about Starfleet ships.
The Ambassador has always been my favourite TNG era vessel, because it looks like a ship made by Starfleet; and most of the others don't (to my way of thinking). Why they don't exactly is something I have a hard time putting my finger on. I really like the Oberth too, but it has little in common with other classic designs; so it's not just that these other ships don't follow a particular pattern.
Smooth and uncluttered hulls is certainly part of it. Looking at the studio model of the Oberth, it is hard to make out any hull panelling at all; but in STO, the seams are clearly visible from quite a distance (implying large gaps, which is undesirable in a ship's hull). I also don't like how metallic many of the hull materials in STO are (something we only really saw in ENT).
I do like circular saucers, though some ships look great without them. I prefer blunt, beefy looking nacelles like on the Ambassador, to sleek ones like on the Sovie (or even the Connie for that matter); though there are exceptions there too (I love the Bellerophon's nacelles, maybe because they aren't too long I guess).
I like things to have a sense of mass about them; I don't like delicate looking ships (they just don't look fit for purpose). My favourite Starfleet saucer design for example, was actually on a DS9 kitbash (though I don't know if it ever appeared on screen). It was a three nacelled Excelsior era ship, that had a saucer that was basically just 2 Excelsior saucers stuck together; producing a very thick circular primary hull with a broad rim, and an identical hull curve on both sides. It reminded me a bit of the chunky little Oberth saucer, only meaner; and I thought it looked great.
Guess that isn't very helpfull; but like I said, I have a hard time putting my finger on it.
You *are* alone. The Excelsior is the best-looking ship in the fleet. Evah.
But I do agree the Ambassador is very "Federation". Maybe because it very closely resembles the TOS Constitution class with the round primary/secondary hulls and "fat" nacelles?
/threadjack OFF
Thats why i would like to suggest more different styled ship parts, especially for ships with no or very little alternative ship parts.
I can't imagine that creating some additional saucers or some different shaped pylons for one ship or two would be too much work. (they could use existing one from other ship and modifiy those parts a bit to make them fit.)
I could imagine that the Avenger really could need a different shaped Saucer or at least one as brawny as the rest of the ship. The standard saucer looks way to fragile and subtle for such a rough looking ship, it's killing the whole muscular/beefy look of the ship. Althrough i own the ship myself, i never use it because its look makes me just cringe. (they could just give it the Cochrane Class saucer or a down-scaled Envoy Class Saucer)
The other thing i would L O V E to see would be some forward facing or at least neutral shaped pylons for the Odyssey. I find it astonishing that the flagship has NO alternative shipparts whatsoever, not even something simple as different shaped pylons.
Heck, they could just mirror the extisting ones for that, how long would that take, 5 minutes?;)
My point is that i would like to see some options. As i already said the ship tailor is such a great tool in STO, it's a shame newer ships have so little (good) choices.
I find it sad that STOs ship designers have obviously such difficulties when it comes to Starfleet ships. I recently had the chance to look at some Klingon ship designs, some look really great. (especially the Qu'Daj class, negh'var variant provides some really nice additional ship parts.)
On the other hand when i look at the various Advanced Dyson Science Destroyers i have to say that the Federation ships looks awful compared to their Klingon and Romulan counterparts (IMO).
Of course this is only my opinion, someone else certainly sees things totally different, but my point is that there should be more DIFFERENT styled options for our ships.
I think it's not very useful to get 3 variations of a ship that all look almost all the same.
to thread starter: I'm sorry if i hijaked your thread, i'll going to restrain myself (i hope that's the right expression )
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
To thread starter: I'm sorry if i hijaked your thread, i'll going to restrain myself (i hope that's the right expression )
Cheers mate. Some really good posts exploring Federation ships here, good work people.
Back to criticising Federation ship designs, I really like the Excelsior class and Ambassador too. They are both aesthetically pleasing, and their design reflects their peaceful role. Same goes for the Miranda.
The Ambassador is unique in that while the Excelsior was a completely new sleek design, the Ambassador tries bridging the gap between Connie ships and the modern era by incorporating new designs into an already familiar base layout. For example, the saucer, neck and engineering hull are all similar to the classical ship.
It's a shame that Cryptic's earlier ships don't bridge the gap as expertly as canon designers. To me, it looks like Starfleet fired every single ship designer, and repopulated the team with designers from a backwater planet who have no idea how to design Fed ships.
In reply to the other posts regarding late 24th designs, pylons and nacelles; a ship design has to reveal technological and time progression. Having ships that feature the same non-sleek but still cool looking design of the Connie, Ambassador etc a century and a half onward would not do us any good.
I think the current progression of ships to become sleek is the best option used so far.
REMEMBER: Late 24th century ships such as the Sovvie were designed for exploration, not war. They are diplomatic starships, and having these ships appear on the doorstep of a new species would probably make the species in question regard the Federation in awe, due to stereotyping. After all the design is trying to look cool, and that is good.
Even in periods of battle, the sleek but slightly frail looking parts of a ship don't fail. They continue to work as normal. Putting emphasis onto an increased bulk would not help specifically due to the fact that correctly calibrated phasers or torps can blast through hull plating, and four decks with ease. That design then becomes inefficient. Instead emphasis should be put on providing strong shielding...
Beta Antares Shipyards advanced Starship development project.
CLASSIFIED
Cheers mate. Some really good posts exploring Federation ships here, good work people.
Back to criticising Federation ship designs, I really like the Excelsior class and Ambassador too. They are both aesthetically pleasing, and their design reflects their peaceful role. Same goes for the Miranda.
The Ambassador is unique in that while the Excelsior was a completely new sleek design, the Ambassador tries bridging the gap between Connie ships and the modern era by incorporating new designs into an already familiar base layout. For example, the saucer, neck and engineering hull are all similar to the classical ship.
It's a shame that Cryptic's earlier ships don't bridge the gap as expertly as canon designers. To me, it looks like Starfleet fired every single ship designer, and repopulated the team with designers from a backwater planet who have no idea how to design Fed ships.
In reply to the other posts regarding late 24th designs, pylons and nacelles; a ship design has to reveal technological and time progression. Having ships that feature the same non-sleek but still cool looking design of the Connie, Ambassador etc a century and a half onward would not do us any good.
I think the current progression of ships to become sleek is the best option used so far.
REMEMBER: Late 24th century ships such as the Sovvie were designed for exploration, not war. They are diplomatic starships, and having these ships appear on the doorstep of a new species would probably make the species in question regard the Federation in awe, due to stereotyping. After all the design is trying to look cool, and that is good.
Even in periods of battle, the sleek but slightly frail looking parts of a ship don't fail. They continue to work as normal. Putting emphasis onto an increased bulk would not help specifically due to the fact that correctly calibrated phasers or torps can blast through hull plating, and four decks with ease. That design then becomes inefficient. Instead emphasis should be put on providing strong shielding...
Oh, I don't mean to say they should abandon the established trends of ship development for STO's 'modern' designs; I just wish they'd make more old ones as well. Most of the ships in the game could easily have had equivalents from the Excelsior or Ambassador eras of ship design. I'm a big fan of the idea of a Nebula skin that uses Ambassador components, just as an example.
I have to say, personally, I really like alot of Cryptic's designs. I've actually always been a fan of the Patrol Escorts. Especially the Maelstrom. I've always seen a mix of two lineages there: the Akira family's (which stretches back to the Miranda and the NX-01) and the Defiant's, almost like the designers were torn up on which angle to go with. I've also found the "fins" on them that everyone hates actually quite logical in my mind. I always view them as secondary pylons on the longer version to help keep the Nacelles attached or for easy reattachment incase of disconnect or as armor for the Pylons proper to prevent them from getting heavily damaged in a frontal assault.
The designs I dont like are the Deep Space Explorers like the Destiny or the Rapier variants.
But I do like the Odyssey, the Regent, the Chimera (when its not in tac mode, then it looks rediculous), the Patrol Escorts, the Noble and so on. I think its a matter of taste really.
Just because something is different doesn't make it non-Federation. I think pidgeon-holing designs into a set pattern doesn't work, its the ship equivalent of typecasting. I have no issues with Cryptic trying new designs and most of them work imo. But that's just *MY* opinion. What looks good to someone might look stupid to someone else. I'm a male and like having long hair, while others like a more clean cut look. Its just a matter of opinion, and the same applies to starship designs.
@cavalerius
The ship in your signature looks nice, are there more angles of view or general information of it?
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
I have to say, personally, I really like alot of Cryptic's designs. I've actually always been a fan of the Patrol Escorts. Especially the Maelstrom. I've always seen a mix of two lineages there: the Akira family's (which stretches back to the Miranda and the NX-01) and the Defiant's, almost like the designers were torn up on which angle to go with. I've also found the "fins" on them that everyone hates actually quite logical in my mind. I always view them as secondary pylons on the longer version to help keep the Nacelles attached or for easy reattachment incase of disconnect or as armor for the Pylons proper to prevent them from getting heavily damaged in a frontal assault.
The designs I dont like are the Deep Space Explorers like the Destiny or the Rapier variants.
But I do like the Odyssey, the Regent, the Chimera (when its not in tac mode, then it looks rediculous), the Patrol Escorts, the Noble and so on. I think its a matter of taste really.
Just because something is different doesn't make it non-Federation. I think pidgeon-holing designs into a set pattern doesn't work, its the ship equivalent of typecasting. I have no issues with Cryptic trying new designs and most of them work imo. But that's just *MY* opinion. What looks good to someone might look stupid to someone else. I'm a male and like having long hair, while others like a more clean cut look. Its just a matter of opinion, and the same applies to starship designs.
Agreed, also there is one other thing to consider. If the designs look too similar no one can tell them apart.
I have to say, personally, I really like alot of Cryptic's designs...
Just because something is different doesn't make it non-Federation. I think pidgeon-holing designs into a set pattern doesn't work, its the ship equivalent of typecasting. I have no issues with Cryptic trying new designs and most of them work imo. But that's just *MY* opinion. What looks good to someone might look stupid to someone else. I'm a male and like having long hair, while others like a more clean cut look. Its just a matter of opinion, and the same applies to starship designs.
And there in lies the ultimate problem...
Ill repeat what I said in a previous post: Everyone in STO will have a different opinion on what makes a Federation ship look Federation. That doesn't mean Cryptic should leave the Federation building norm and design wacky ships to appease the different views people have on a good federation ship.
The ship progression canon ships had was good. It was boring, but it also made it iconic. It wasn't broke, in fact it worked well and peoples general view was very positive. Cryptic's ships however have taken the design and layout of those ships and created a bastardised version of it (I apologise for the very pungent word I used there, but it's true). They've made the ships look more busy, with heaps of angles, and there's heaps of unnecessary detail. It's horrible. The Tempest so far is the best design I've seen.
@cavalerius
The ship in your signature looks nice, are there more angles of view or general information of it?
The ship in my signature is the Proteus class Explorer. Beautiful ship, needs some modifications to its underside, but apart from that it fits its intended purpose beautifully, so it's my favourite...
Beta Antares Shipyards advanced Starship development project.
CLASSIFIED
Although it has already bee noted in this thread, it's worth repeating.
The canon designs aside, STO contains quite a few ship designs that were not canon (i.e TV series canon) but, by the same token, were not Cryptic designed either.
Luna Class
Vesta Class
Odyssey class
So it has to be noted - players have mixed feelings about the design of those classes too, so it's clearly not entirely a 'cryptic design' thing.
Players have mixed feelings about canon designs too, so it's not even limited to noncanon designs.
Anyways.... One thing I would love to see is a Cheyenne variant with different nacelles. Maybe galaxy nacelles? the saucer already looks like one.
Ill repeat what I said in a previous post: Everyone in STO will have a different opinion on what makes a Federation ship look Federation. That doesn't mean Cryptic should leave the Federation building norm and design wacky ships to appease the different views people have on a good federation ship.
Nor should they ONLY make blank, simple designs to appease you. They should make a variety to keep things interesting.
It's not really even about "appeasing" anyone. I think Cryptic recognizes that not every person is going to like every ship. That's why you make many ships in a wide range of styles. Some simple and sleek, some with extra detail. Why is that a bad thing?
If they put in a ship you don't like, that's fine. But someone else may like it, why should they not be able to have that ship?
In the link provided for the Prometeus, there is an image of a four-nacelle Galaxy-class. I am NOT a fan of the ship at all, and the four nacelles looks hideous (to me).
Although my ultimate favorite is the Excelsior, I could not want a dreadnought version of it at all.
Some people LOVE and WANT the JJ-Trek ships in STO. If, on the grand improbability Cryptic would do it, then I hope they put in a JJ-Trek version of the Excelsior someone created that looks cool enough.
And to be frank, from my point of view, I would love to fly a Chimera from STO - ugly underside and all because I think it's actually a good looking ship ... I just can't afford to do it.
In the link provided for the Prometeus, there is an image of a four-nacelle Galaxy-class. I am NOT a fan of the ship at all, and the four nacelles looks hideous (to me).
Although my ultimate favorite is the Excelsior, I could not want a dreadnought version of it at all.
Some people LOVE and WANT the JJ-Trek ships in STO. If, on the grand improbability Cryptic would do it, then I hope they put in a JJ-Trek version of the Excelsior someone created that looks cool enough.
And to be frank, from my point of view, I would love to fly a Chimera from STO - ugly underside and all because I think it's actually a good looking ship ... I just can't afford to do it.
Posts like this make this thread so interesting to me.:)
Althrough i'm not a fan of the Excelsior (i never where, not even when ST3 came out) i do fully agree with your opinion about the Excelsior Dreadnought as well as with your opinion about the JJ version of the Excelsior.
In fact i think the JJ version is one of the most beautiful Star Trek ships i have ever seen!
So i think your post has made it clear to me that even small things (or especially small design changes) can make a ship look trashy or absolutely gorgeous.
I think no matter if someone is a fan of a certain ship or not, i think now even more that Cryptics ship designers are in the position of making a basicly ugly looking ship to look good. (if the artist has real talent IMO)
Transferred to already existing ships, i think that cryptic should release more ship variants of already existing ships that differ from their original appearance. (Just like they did with the tempest class.)
I would L O V E to see a 25th century Excelsior variant, that looks just like the JJ version.
Other ships could get some a really different looks too, like a hypothetical Star Cruiser refit that could have a Proteus Class -like appearance.
Hopefully the Tempest Class is the beginnning of a phase where Cryptic finally releases good looking versions of already existing ships. I will gladly buy new versions of the Excelsior, or other ships if they finally look good.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
It's amazing how well the Excelsior holds up to streamlining and JJ-ification, though. I'm not sure I've ever seen a JJ variant Excelsior I've disliked - some better than others, surely, but the core design of the ship really benefits from a modernization pass. Takes what was a deceptively elegant tub and turns it into a sexy beast.
Nor should they ONLY make blank, simple designs to appease you. They should make a variety to keep things interesting.
It's not really even about "appeasing" anyone. I think Cryptic recognizes that not every person is going to like every ship. That's why you make many ships in a wide range of styles. Some simple and sleek, some with extra detail. Why is that a bad thing?
If they put in a ship you don't like, that's fine. But someone else may like it, why should they not be able to have that ship?
Since when did I say they should make designs to appease me only? Putting words in my mouth, Gosh man...
This is Star Trek. They should continue on the canon time progression of ships. It worked. Majority of people liked them. Cryptic ships have been given a lot less love from the player base, and the overall gist is it doesn't work...
If you dismiss that, then think about what I said earlier too: Cryptic provides customisation for all the new ships that have recently come out, like they used to do. One bulky brute, a semi bulky/sleek ship, and a sleek ship. I can bet for one that ESD would feature way more sleek Fed ships than the bulky variety.
Ok, here. I've read this thread start to finish, even posted in it before. My interpretation of the whole thing is that you want them to make sleek, simple designs and that's it. If I misinterpreted you, I'm happily willing to admit it.
Also, how exactly do you know what the majority of players like? What evidence is there? Sales figures, polling data?
This is Star Trek. They should continue on the canon time progression of ships. It worked. Majority of people liked them. Cryptic ships have been given a lot less love from the player base, and the overall gist is it doesn't work...
If you dismiss that, then think about what I said earlier too: Cryptic provides customisation for all the new ships that have recently come out, like they used to do. One bulky brute, a semi bulky/sleek ship, and a sleek ship. I can bet for one that ESD would feature way more sleek Fed ships than the bulky variety.
Considering how many people have, in this thread alone, expressed their love of the Maelstrom skin which is pretty much the antithesis of what you want.... yeah, I'm pretty sure the general look of ships wouldn't change.
Think about it: a 500 or 1000 zen package that contains extra parts for the ship tailor for each design.
You could have different packages "inspired" but not EXACTLY like the different eras. One package with TMP inspired design, another with excelsior or ambassador inspired.
Cryptic makes money with minimal effort (a lot of the shapes are in the game, they just need to be rweaked and re-hardpointed), and we get more opportunity to have the ship designs we want.
Nothing breaks the tension better than a tankard of warnog - except maybe a good brawl...
Comments
The reasons for this are all due to the Aesthetic operational design of the ship.
1. Resources aren't wasted on unnecessary fins, hull protrusions or a multi-layered hull. The central pylon is actually thick enough to be a deck. Cargo or Aux systems maybe?
2. The engineering section is inline with the saucer section, minimising the height of the ship and providing a smaller target to enemy ships. Engineering section is thus less likely to be hit by weapons fire, increasing survivability of the ship.
3. Deflector is recessed within the saucer section and therefore less exposed to enemy ships weapons fire.
4. Design is elegant, uses 25th century textures.
While writing this post, I actually realised this thread was successful. First Fed ship released after this post was published was an attractive ship.
CLASSIFIED
[/SIGPIC]
In my opinion Cryptic ship designers tend to exaggerate starfleet ship designs way too much. Sometimes there are simplay too many details, edges and weird (mis)proportions instead of clear and more appealing lines (looking at the Avenger class *cough).
Yeah she looks surprisingly good.
I never was a fan of Cryptics partol escort design, but i must say that this one looks really good.
I think the Tempest is a good example that more round shapes and slightly more balanced proportions can do wonders.
Good analysys imo.
I hope designs like that become a new trend at Cryptics Starfleet ship design.
I actually think about buying ship myself and make it a Beam escort.
For example;
Anyone else want to share what they think makes an 'attractive' starship?
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
My opinion about them has nothing to do with anything other than appearance. I also do not think the rest of the Fed ships are unattactive or anything like that. As big as Starfleet is, it is bound to have a few ugly stepsisters hiding in the back somewhere. This has more to do with form following function.
I really despise angular designs like most older Cryptics designs have, like the Noble Class, Imperial Class or Hermes Class amongst many other designs.
These Ships look too "technical", filled with too many details. More round shapes would make them look much more elegant IMO.
Heres a good example of what i am talking about:
Althrough both ships feature roughly the same proportions, the lower ship looks much more elegant/better IMO.
Another thing are proportions, this is where Cryptics designers seem to have real problems in my opinion.
I don't know if it its on purpose but some ships look horribly bad proportioned.
For example the Avenger Class which has a WAY to small saucer (at least to narrow).
Other ships like the Chimera look just bad because of some real strange design desicisions like the chimeras "belly" which make a really cool looking ship look plain ugly IMO.
Cryptics designers should add just some ship parts that look different.
Personally i am not a fan of too long nacelles and extended pylons. I know i am probably the only one, but i really don't like it if a ship features "too" long nacelles, like the Excelsior or Sovereign. I never felt that it looks very advanced, especially since most TNG ships feature relatively short nacelles (Galaxy, Nebula, Intrepid, Defiant).
For me it looked really strange when they came up with the Sovereign (ST:8) and made the ship have Huge nacelles connected with fragile looking pylons, while the rest looks really sturdy.
It just feels wrong in my option.
What i like are wide ship designs. It doesn't have to look like a Galaxy Class, but designs like the Ambassador look way more "federation" like to me than a Sovereign Class.
Summarized, i would say that there are 3 things a good looking Starfleet ship should have:
1. Elegant and round/fluent looking shapes. - Not too many details and god forbit greebles.
2. Balanced proportions, or at least give the ship a center of mass that doesn't look odd. (Like the Avenger for example)
3. Neck and Pylons shouldn't look to fragile compared to the rest of the ship, instead they should look sturdy or Saucer/Nacelles should be completely integrated into the Hull/Saucer.
I think that future Starfleet ship designs should look more elegant instead of making them look like they would belong to Battlestar Galactica.
OPTIONS, Cryptics designs should always inlcude several different shaped saucers and Nacelles. I think that the ship tailor is way too underused nowadays.
You *are* alone. The Excelsior is the best-looking ship in the fleet. Evah.
But I do agree the Ambassador is very "Federation". Maybe because it very closely resembles the TOS Constitution class with the round primary/secondary hulls and "fat" nacelles?
/threadjack OFF
Same here. I've never much liked the Sovereign, Defiant, or Intrepid, because I felt they were trying too hard to look cool. Same with the various new classes seen in the Armada during the Borg battle in First Contact. I don't think they are ugly exactly, they just aren't much like what I see when I think about Starfleet ships.
The Ambassador has always been my favourite TNG era vessel, because it looks like a ship made by Starfleet; and most of the others don't (to my way of thinking). Why they don't exactly is something I have a hard time putting my finger on. I really like the Oberth too, but it has little in common with other classic designs; so it's not just that these other ships don't follow a particular pattern.
Smooth and uncluttered hulls is certainly part of it. Looking at the studio model of the Oberth, it is hard to make out any hull panelling at all; but in STO, the seams are clearly visible from quite a distance (implying large gaps, which is undesirable in a ship's hull). I also don't like how metallic many of the hull materials in STO are (something we only really saw in ENT).
I do like circular saucers, though some ships look great without them. I prefer blunt, beefy looking nacelles like on the Ambassador, to sleek ones like on the Sovie (or even the Connie for that matter); though there are exceptions there too (I love the Bellerophon's nacelles, maybe because they aren't too long I guess).
I like things to have a sense of mass about them; I don't like delicate looking ships (they just don't look fit for purpose). My favourite Starfleet saucer design for example, was actually on a DS9 kitbash (though I don't know if it ever appeared on screen). It was a three nacelled Excelsior era ship, that had a saucer that was basically just 2 Excelsior saucers stuck together; producing a very thick circular primary hull with a broad rim, and an identical hull curve on both sides. It reminded me a bit of the chunky little Oberth saucer, only meaner; and I thought it looked great.
Guess that isn't very helpfull; but like I said, I have a hard time putting my finger on it.
My character Tsin'xing
The "bird of prey" (real, not starship) nature of it just feels right
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
Thats why i would like to suggest more different styled ship parts, especially for ships with no or very little alternative ship parts.
I can't imagine that creating some additional saucers or some different shaped pylons for one ship or two would be too much work. (they could use existing one from other ship and modifiy those parts a bit to make them fit.)
I could imagine that the Avenger really could need a different shaped Saucer or at least one as brawny as the rest of the ship. The standard saucer looks way to fragile and subtle for such a rough looking ship, it's killing the whole muscular/beefy look of the ship. Althrough i own the ship myself, i never use it because its look makes me just cringe.
(they could just give it the Cochrane Class saucer or a down-scaled Envoy Class Saucer)
The other thing i would L O V E to see would be some forward facing or at least neutral shaped pylons for the Odyssey. I find it astonishing that the flagship has NO alternative shipparts whatsoever, not even something simple as different shaped pylons.
Heck, they could just mirror the extisting ones for that, how long would that take, 5 minutes?;)
My point is that i would like to see some options. As i already said the ship tailor is such a great tool in STO, it's a shame newer ships have so little (good) choices.
I find it sad that STOs ship designers have obviously such difficulties when it comes to Starfleet ships. I recently had the chance to look at some Klingon ship designs, some look really great.
(especially the Qu'Daj class, negh'var variant provides some really nice additional ship parts.)
On the other hand when i look at the various Advanced Dyson Science Destroyers i have to say that the Federation ships looks awful compared to their Klingon and Romulan counterparts (IMO).
Of course this is only my opinion, someone else certainly sees things totally different, but my point is that there should be more DIFFERENT styled options for our ships.
I think it's not very useful to get 3 variations of a ship that all look almost all the same.
to thread starter: I'm sorry if i hijaked your thread, i'll going to restrain myself (i hope that's the right expression
Cheers mate. Some really good posts exploring Federation ships here, good work people.
Back to criticising Federation ship designs, I really like the Excelsior class and Ambassador too. They are both aesthetically pleasing, and their design reflects their peaceful role. Same goes for the Miranda.
The Ambassador is unique in that while the Excelsior was a completely new sleek design, the Ambassador tries bridging the gap between Connie ships and the modern era by incorporating new designs into an already familiar base layout. For example, the saucer, neck and engineering hull are all similar to the classical ship.
It's a shame that Cryptic's earlier ships don't bridge the gap as expertly as canon designers. To me, it looks like Starfleet fired every single ship designer, and repopulated the team with designers from a backwater planet who have no idea how to design Fed ships.
In reply to the other posts regarding late 24th designs, pylons and nacelles; a ship design has to reveal technological and time progression. Having ships that feature the same non-sleek but still cool looking design of the Connie, Ambassador etc a century and a half onward would not do us any good.
I think the current progression of ships to become sleek is the best option used so far.
REMEMBER: Late 24th century ships such as the Sovvie were designed for exploration, not war. They are diplomatic starships, and having these ships appear on the doorstep of a new species would probably make the species in question regard the Federation in awe, due to stereotyping. After all the design is trying to look cool, and that is good.
Even in periods of battle, the sleek but slightly frail looking parts of a ship don't fail. They continue to work as normal. Putting emphasis onto an increased bulk would not help specifically due to the fact that correctly calibrated phasers or torps can blast through hull plating, and four decks with ease. That design then becomes inefficient. Instead emphasis should be put on providing strong shielding...
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Oh, I don't mean to say they should abandon the established trends of ship development for STO's 'modern' designs; I just wish they'd make more old ones as well. Most of the ships in the game could easily have had equivalents from the Excelsior or Ambassador eras of ship design. I'm a big fan of the idea of a Nebula skin that uses Ambassador components, just as an example.
The designs I dont like are the Deep Space Explorers like the Destiny or the Rapier variants.
But I do like the Odyssey, the Regent, the Chimera (when its not in tac mode, then it looks rediculous), the Patrol Escorts, the Noble and so on. I think its a matter of taste really.
Just because something is different doesn't make it non-Federation. I think pidgeon-holing designs into a set pattern doesn't work, its the ship equivalent of typecasting. I have no issues with Cryptic trying new designs and most of them work imo. But that's just *MY* opinion. What looks good to someone might look stupid to someone else. I'm a male and like having long hair, while others like a more clean cut look. Its just a matter of opinion, and the same applies to starship designs.
TRIBBLE Hydra! Hail Janeway!
The ship in your signature looks nice, are there more angles of view or general information of it?
My character Tsin'xing
And there in lies the ultimate problem...
Ill repeat what I said in a previous post:
Everyone in STO will have a different opinion on what makes a Federation ship look Federation. That doesn't mean Cryptic should leave the Federation building norm and design wacky ships to appease the different views people have on a good federation ship.
The ship progression canon ships had was good. It was boring, but it also made it iconic. It wasn't broke, in fact it worked well and peoples general view was very positive. Cryptic's ships however have taken the design and layout of those ships and created a bastardised version of it (I apologise for the very pungent word I used there, but it's true). They've made the ships look more busy, with heaps of angles, and there's heaps of unnecessary detail. It's horrible. The Tempest so far is the best design I've seen.
The ship in my signature is the Proteus class Explorer. Beautiful ship, needs some modifications to its underside, but apart from that it fits its intended purpose beautifully, so it's my favourite...
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Anyways.... One thing I would love to see is a Cheyenne variant with different nacelles.
My character Tsin'xing
Nor should they ONLY make blank, simple designs to appease you. They should make a variety to keep things interesting.
It's not really even about "appeasing" anyone. I think Cryptic recognizes that not every person is going to like every ship. That's why you make many ships in a wide range of styles. Some simple and sleek, some with extra detail. Why is that a bad thing?
If they put in a ship you don't like, that's fine. But someone else may like it, why should they not be able to have that ship?
In the link provided for the Prometeus, there is an image of a four-nacelle Galaxy-class. I am NOT a fan of the ship at all, and the four nacelles looks hideous (to me).
Although my ultimate favorite is the Excelsior, I could not want a dreadnought version of it at all.
Some people LOVE and WANT the JJ-Trek ships in STO. If, on the grand improbability Cryptic would do it, then I hope they put in a JJ-Trek version of the Excelsior someone created that looks cool enough.
And to be frank, from my point of view, I would love to fly a Chimera from STO - ugly underside and all because I think it's actually a good looking ship ... I just can't afford to do it.
Posts like this make this thread so interesting to me.:)
Althrough i'm not a fan of the Excelsior (i never where, not even when ST3 came out) i do fully agree with your opinion about the Excelsior Dreadnought as well as with your opinion about the JJ version of the Excelsior.
In fact i think the JJ version is one of the most beautiful Star Trek ships i have ever seen!
So i think your post has made it clear to me that even small things (or especially small design changes) can make a ship look trashy or absolutely gorgeous.
I think no matter if someone is a fan of a certain ship or not, i think now even more that Cryptics ship designers are in the position of making a basicly ugly looking ship to look good. (if the artist has real talent IMO)
Transferred to already existing ships, i think that cryptic should release more ship variants of already existing ships that differ from their original appearance. (Just like they did with the tempest class.)
I would L O V E to see a 25th century Excelsior variant, that looks just like the JJ version.
Other ships could get some a really different looks too, like a hypothetical Star Cruiser refit that could have a Proteus Class -like appearance.
Hopefully the Tempest Class is the beginnning of a phase where Cryptic finally releases good looking versions of already existing ships. I will gladly buy new versions of the Excelsior, or other ships if they finally look good.
My character Tsin'xing
Pretty damn good, but I like this one better.
It's amazing how well the Excelsior holds up to streamlining and JJ-ification, though. I'm not sure I've ever seen a JJ variant Excelsior I've disliked - some better than others, surely, but the core design of the ship really benefits from a modernization pass. Takes what was a deceptively elegant tub and turns it into a sexy beast.
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
Since when did I say they should make designs to appease me only? Putting words in my mouth, Gosh man...
This is Star Trek. They should continue on the canon time progression of ships. It worked. Majority of people liked them. Cryptic ships have been given a lot less love from the player base, and the overall gist is it doesn't work...
If you dismiss that, then think about what I said earlier too: Cryptic provides customisation for all the new ships that have recently come out, like they used to do. One bulky brute, a semi bulky/sleek ship, and a sleek ship. I can bet for one that ESD would feature way more sleek Fed ships than the bulky variety.
^ I agree. 25th century skin for the Excelsior please. Very efficient appealing design too that suits its intended role.
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Also, how exactly do you know what the majority of players like? What evidence is there? Sales figures, polling data?
My character Tsin'xing
Cstore packs.
Think about it: a 500 or 1000 zen package that contains extra parts for the ship tailor for each design.
You could have different packages "inspired" but not EXACTLY like the different eras. One package with TMP inspired design, another with excelsior or ambassador inspired.
Cryptic makes money with minimal effort (a lot of the shapes are in the game, they just need to be rweaked and re-hardpointed), and we get more opportunity to have the ship designs we want.