I wish they would've fleshed out the Breen more in STO. It would be interesting, to say the least.
Agreed, they could be a very interesting pragmatic ally
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Weirdly, you would think settleing things with the Undine would/should be more simple, since they have infiltrated us, they know what we know, if we genuinely want peace they should know it already
So either the Undine are so blinded by their xenophobic nature and don't want peace, aren't yet convinced , or perhaps Starfleet command has more aggressive motives than we are being told?
I can't remember where, but I think it was implied pre-Borg arc revamp that the Undine may in fact know it wasn't us who attacked them, but that they no longer care. Remember that their racial motto is "the weak shall perish". Someone from our universe attacked them, after Voyager had managed to get them to agree to a truce. Maybe it was us, maybe it wasn't. At best, it means that we can't keep a proper leash on our universe. The Undine see us as weak; they were willing to just ignore us when we were in our own little universe, but since we can't even keep our problems from spilling over, we don't deserve the right to exist, anymore. Wipe out our universe, and the problem goes away, after all.
That's my theory, anyway. Technically, we're on the same side - we both want to take out the Iconians, and the servitor races, and the Borg - they just want to clear out everything else, too, so there are no more problems in the future.
It fits with their xenophobic nature. Remember, the Undine aren't nice people who mistakenly strike out at us; in the Voyager episode that introduced them, it was revealed they had wiped out all other intelligent species in fluidic space. I think that's the main reason the Hylasa got retconned out of existence in the revamp.
I like the Dominion way more than the constant cry for a Borg faction, but I feel they are both the same. Borg wouldn't be a realistic playable faction because they are all drones to the collective. The Dominion on the other hand are all individuals, but the mains are genetically modified to obey the Founders without question. And the alien species that we've actually seen in the shows are subjugated fearful wretches, with the exception of the Karemma, who seem to still be cautious about pissing off the masters. I don't know how it could work to have a playable Dominion faction(assuming your would play either Vorta or Jem'Hadar). I honestly see the Dominion being in a future alliance of sorts(not full blown we love eachother, but more we will not go into your quadrant, you stay out of ours, and if the Iconians or some other threat to the whole galaxy emerges, we'll send fleets to fight them)
Let's turn that assumption on its head.
Say the Great Link just...unraveled. It's no more. Too much discord, too many fresh ideas brought in from the land of the solids, too many debates about subjugation vs. free will and conquest vs. xenophobic isolation vs. cooperative alliance, and the whole thing comes undone. Or maybe it's the New Link (from the mission) that's fractured. Take your pick.
With that, your hold on the Vorta and the Jem'Hadar is semi-broken. There's still a willingness to serve, and that will always be there, but the child-like devotion to their "gods" is permanently fractured.
So, you play a Founder. You pick up isolated, captured, or otherwise separated Vorta and Jem'Hadar along the way, and manage to work them into a usable crew. You're searching for some purpose, or perhaps to form some sort of workable nation-state with the other Founders.
Where the story goes from here, I dunno.
Another mini-faction, like the Romulans? Figure out whether to ally yourself with the Feds or KDF? (I like this option least, but it has the virtue of not getting shot down by Cryptic because "it's always been a two-faction game".)
Maybe you're hostile to everyone, just like the good old times, and you just want to be left alone?
Maybe you're still looking to conquer, but are getting stymied by that whole problem of being separate now, with no Great Link to multiply your intelligence and no unanimous slave fighting force to throw themselves into battles for you.
Perhaps you're trying to cooperate with the breakaway Cardassians and the True Way becomes a faction?
So many possibilities, many of which would never happen because "no more real factions".
Perhaps now the New Accord is a thing it could pave the way for more factions willing to negotiate in the future? Perhaps once threats get big and bad enough?
I'm sure we'll never directly lock horns with Iconians seeing as they are the main villain and all, but perhaps if all their confirmed allies (and not puppets) make a direct push into our universe? I could see at least a couple of faction re-think their position.
Of the list the only ones I find hard to understand are the Tholians.
I don't think we really have a true motive yet for the reason of their incursions into Romulan space and the neutral zone.
Generally the Tholians have been neutral, but they are fiercely protective of their borders.
They are not above TRIBBLE around us "lesser" lifeforms when it suits their purposes like the USS Defiant (the first one) indecent for example. They mostly just keep out of our way and vice versa though.
Of the list the only ones I find hard to understand are the Tholians.
I don't think we really have a true motive yet for the reason of their incursions into Romulan space and the neutral zone.
Generally the Tholians have been neutral, but they are fiercely protective of their borders.
Ah, but I think their motives can be easily divined. They're gathering resources to fight the Iconians. That's why they're doing so much research on Dewa III. Or were, before these humanoid upstarts came in and started shooting at them for no reason.
And yes, I am going to keep writing Tholian propaganda until we get a Tholian faction. Why do you ask?
I can't remember where, but I think it was implied pre-Borg arc revamp that the Undine may in fact know it wasn't us who attacked them, but that they no longer care. Remember that their racial motto is "the weak shall perish". Someone from our universe attacked them, after Voyager had managed to get them to agree to a truce. Maybe it was us, maybe it wasn't. At best, it means that we can't keep a proper leash on our universe. The Undine see us as weak; they were willing to just ignore us when we were in our own little universe, but since we can't even keep our problems from spilling over, we don't deserve the right to exist, anymore. Wipe out our universe, and the problem goes away, after all.
That's my theory, anyway. Technically, we're on the same side - we both want to take out the Iconians, and the servitor races, and the Borg - they just want to clear out everything else, too, so there are no more problems in the future.
It fits with their xenophobic nature. Remember, the Undine aren't nice people who mistakenly strike out at us; in the Voyager episode that introduced them, it was revealed they had wiped out all other intelligent species in fluidic space. I think that's the main reason the Hylasa got retconned out of existence in the revamp.
That sounds about right to me, its blatantly obvious that peace with the Undine will happen on the Undines terms, and they are currently not interested in the slightest, they don't play nice with the 'weak'
These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......
That sounds about right to me, its blatantly obvious that peace with the Undine will happen on the Undines terms, and they are currently not interested in the slightest, they don't play nice with the 'weak'
Then in addition to being willfully ignorant and complete ****ing morons tactically*, they've got their heads up their asses. I think by now we've abundantly proven we're the exact opposite of "weak". Seriously, how many times have we completely and utterly trashed them?
Stuff like this is exactly why many of us here say that much of STO is an Idiot Plot.
* Attacking through the Dyson sphere? Really? So, in other words, you're throwing all your forces at a choke point when you can make a rift wherever the hell you please.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Then in addition to being willfully ignorant and complete ****ing morons tactically*, they've got their heads up their asses. I think by now we've abundantly proven we're the exact opposite of "weak". Seriously, how many times have we completely and utterly trashed them?
Racist idiots can be pretty damn convinced of their superiority. It's shocking the excuses that they will use to cover up for being beaten by perceived inferiors.
* Attacking through the Dyson sphere? Really? So, in other words, you're throwing all your forces at a choke point when you can make a rift wherever the hell you please.
Eh, my pet hypothesis is that it's hard to navigate and/or go to warp in fluidic space, and/or the Undine lack efficient FTL travel. So the Iconian gates provide a nice, quick method to get troops from one side of fluidic space to the other, by building up troops at one spot, transferring to the regular universe, gating somewhere, then using a fluidic rift to get back to the new spot in fluidic space.
* Attacking through the Dyson sphere? Really? So, in other words, you're throwing all your forces at a choke point when you can make a rift wherever the hell you please.
Voth: We invaded their sphere, destroyed their ships, and violated the prime directive. Huge diplomacy fail here, we could have offered the Voth a place (Or even let them lead) the Omega forces to help them fight the Borg and not need Omega Particles.
1) Both the Voth and the Alliance found the sphere at the same time.
2) It really isn't their sphere nor is it really ours as it was built by the Solanae by order of the Iconians
3) Omega Directive trumps even the Prime Directive because of it's subspace destroying properties.
4) The Voth are fighting the Undine, not the Borg.
5) There are defections from the Voth to the Alliance, so not a total diplomacy fail on our part as it is because of their racist doctrine.
4) The Voth are fighting the Undine, not the Borg.
Lolwut? Go watch the rep cutscenes again (the T3 one IIRC). It pretty clearly shows a Citadel-class being attacked by Borg weapons.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Lolwut? Go watch the rep cutscenes again (the T3 one IIRC). It pretty clearly shows a Citadel-class being attacked by Borg weapons.
Not to mention the comment about the enemy wanting to "add them (the Voth) to their own ranks (the "mysterious" enemy")" with choice words like "resistance" and "futile." Along with the very GREEN energy weapons in the cut scene, think very carefully about whose MO this sounds like....
Not to mention the comment about the enemy wanting to "add them (the Voth) to their own ranks (the "mysterious" enemy")" with choice words like "resistance" and "futile." Along with the very GREEN energy weapons in the cut scene, think very carefully about whose MO this sounds like....
Oh, I don't know, the Talarian Republic?
:cool::P:D
Yeah, the Devs even outright stated it was the Borg in s9 dev blog 1.
Lolwut? Go watch the rep cutscenes again (the T3 one IIRC). It pretty clearly shows a Citadel-class being attacked by Borg weapons.
Tier 2 actually but I digress. The weapons used are a little ambiguous. Even if they are plasma weapons, any race could use plasma weapons, not just the Borg. Also, the dialogue that Nelen Exil gives during that cutscene states that while they were successful in teaching Doctrine to other species and that weapons were not required, only furthers my belief that the attackers on the Citadel were meant to be generic aliens.
Not to mention the comment about the enemy wanting to "add them (the Voth) to their own ranks (the "mysterious" enemy")" with choice words like "resistance" and "futile." Along with the very GREEN energy weapons in the cut scene, think very carefully about whose MO this sounds like....
Tier 2 actually but I digress. The weapons used are a little ambiguous. Even if they are plasma weapons, any race could use plasma weapons, not just the Borg. Also, the dialogue that Nelen Exil gives during that cutscene states that while they were successful in teaching Doctrine to other species and that weapons were not required, only furthers my belief that the attackers on the Citadel were meant to be generic aliens.
Ahem:
Nelen Exil: "The Voth are not warmongers. We have taught Doctrine to weaker species, but weapons are usually not required. When the Voth have encountered opposition, we have resisted attempts by others to add us to their own ranks. Fights between evenly matched adversaries tend to be futile. A Sphere might convince some that the odds have shifted in our favor.".
Nelen Exil: "The Voth are not warmongers. We have taught Doctrine to weaker species, but weapons are usually not required. When the Voth have encountered opposition, we have resisted attempts by others to add us to their own ranks. Fights between evenly matched adversaries tend to be futile. A Sphere might convince some that the odds have shifted in our favor.".
I'm starting to think you guys are looking too deeply into the text. Nelen Exil might as well have picked those words at random.
: the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one's own ideas compare exegesis
But combined with the coloring of the weapons used (Borg plasma is disruptor green) and plasma torpedoes.
Pretty damn obvious it's the Borg if you actually use your brain.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Abandoned, the sphere drifted undiscovered until found by a Voth expeditionary force looking for weapons to use against the Borg, who had invaded Voth territory. Recognizing the power of the sphere, but believing it to have been created by their ancestors, the Voth prepared to activate the sphere and take it back to their homeworld, where they planned to use the Omega particles it contained to create barriers that would block all interstellar travel into Voth space.
Borg v. Voth. QED.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Would be nice if you actually had the material at hand.
When I added that comment, ba'alfan had already corrected himself by linking to the right blog entry. Why would I have needed to link to it again? It seems superfluous to do so.
You seem to have forgotten about the Breen and Klingons
Breen: Always like to pick a fight no matter what
Klingons: You still decide to fight against the Borg together, then mutually help out in Romulan, Nukara, and Dyson, and then finally agreed with the Klingons that the Fed was wrong, which led to a ceasefire with a really good prospect of alliance. I would call that a successful diplomacy in the end.
Breen: Always like to pick a fight no matter what
Klingons: You still decide to fight against the Borg together, then mutually help out in Romulan, Nukara, and Dyson, and then finally agreed with the Klingons that the Fed was wrong, which led to a ceasefire with a really good prospect of alliance. I would call that a successful diplomacy in the end.
I'd like to see more of the Breen in STO, for sure.
Klingons, yes. They are an honorable people, if you admit that you f*cked up, they will let you back into the Khitomer Accords.
You seem to have forgotten about the Breen and Klingons
Breen: Realistically we know frak-all about them. As previously mentioned, the fact they're a confederacy means it's entirely possible they're pretty heavily factionalized.
Klingons: Were you not paying attention? We just ended that war, one which started because Cryptic decided to do a complete rehash of seasons 4-5 of DS9 with an added dose of stupid-as-frak on the Federation side.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Then in addition to being willfully ignorant and complete ****ing morons tactically*, they've got their heads up their asses. I think by now we've abundantly proven we're the exact opposite of "weak". Seriously, how many times have we completely and utterly trashed them?
Stuff like this is exactly why many of us here say that much of STO is an Idiot Plot.
* Attacking through the Dyson sphere? Really? So, in other words, you're throwing all your forces at a choke point when you can make a rift wherever the hell you please.
Well the voth are also pretty stubborn in that regard, not only do we destroy them by the thousands, ( Space battlezone has you kill at least 130 ships in 5 mins) , but the Undine can destroy some of their most powerful vessels in a single strike , maybe they should admit the Mammals are superior and go home while they still exist as a civilisation.
As for the Undine, I have no idea how they managed to squander the massive advantage their infiltration gave them, Tactical data regarding Ships, weapons and manpower on tap, wand they still fail bring the neccessary firepower to the fight when they do show up
Come to think of it, every single faction throws itself at us in waves, common gaming trope I know but still its just strange from an in universe point of view. I have serious doubts we maybe get some tougher shingle ships to fight ?Instead of ineffective reinforcements of weak mobs
These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......
Nelen Exil: "The Voth are not warmongers. We have taught Doctrine to weaker species, but weapons are usually not required. When the Voth have encountered opposition, we have resisted attempts by others to add us to their own ranks. Fights between evenly matched adversaries tend to be futile. A Sphere might convince some that the odds have shifted in our favor.".
Sounds to me like it's an even fight between the two, but it's slowly wearing the Voth down. The Borg do have a few advantages over the Voth, after all.
Comments
Agreed, they could be a very interesting pragmatic ally
I can't remember where, but I think it was implied pre-Borg arc revamp that the Undine may in fact know it wasn't us who attacked them, but that they no longer care. Remember that their racial motto is "the weak shall perish". Someone from our universe attacked them, after Voyager had managed to get them to agree to a truce. Maybe it was us, maybe it wasn't. At best, it means that we can't keep a proper leash on our universe. The Undine see us as weak; they were willing to just ignore us when we were in our own little universe, but since we can't even keep our problems from spilling over, we don't deserve the right to exist, anymore. Wipe out our universe, and the problem goes away, after all.
That's my theory, anyway. Technically, we're on the same side - we both want to take out the Iconians, and the servitor races, and the Borg - they just want to clear out everything else, too, so there are no more problems in the future.
It fits with their xenophobic nature. Remember, the Undine aren't nice people who mistakenly strike out at us; in the Voyager episode that introduced them, it was revealed they had wiped out all other intelligent species in fluidic space. I think that's the main reason the Hylasa got retconned out of existence in the revamp.
Let's turn that assumption on its head.
Say the Great Link just...unraveled. It's no more. Too much discord, too many fresh ideas brought in from the land of the solids, too many debates about subjugation vs. free will and conquest vs. xenophobic isolation vs. cooperative alliance, and the whole thing comes undone. Or maybe it's the New Link (from the mission) that's fractured. Take your pick.
With that, your hold on the Vorta and the Jem'Hadar is semi-broken. There's still a willingness to serve, and that will always be there, but the child-like devotion to their "gods" is permanently fractured.
So, you play a Founder. You pick up isolated, captured, or otherwise separated Vorta and Jem'Hadar along the way, and manage to work them into a usable crew. You're searching for some purpose, or perhaps to form some sort of workable nation-state with the other Founders.
Where the story goes from here, I dunno.
Another mini-faction, like the Romulans? Figure out whether to ally yourself with the Feds or KDF? (I like this option least, but it has the virtue of not getting shot down by Cryptic because "it's always been a two-faction game".)
Maybe you're hostile to everyone, just like the good old times, and you just want to be left alone?
Maybe you're still looking to conquer, but are getting stymied by that whole problem of being separate now, with no Great Link to multiply your intelligence and no unanimous slave fighting force to throw themselves into battles for you.
Perhaps you're trying to cooperate with the breakaway Cardassians and the True Way becomes a faction?
So many possibilities, many of which would never happen because "no more real factions".
I'm sure we'll never directly lock horns with Iconians seeing as they are the main villain and all, but perhaps if all their confirmed allies (and not puppets) make a direct push into our universe? I could see at least a couple of faction re-think their position.
They are not above TRIBBLE around us "lesser" lifeforms when it suits their purposes like the USS Defiant (the first one) indecent for example. They mostly just keep out of our way and vice versa though.
Ah, but I think their motives can be easily divined. They're gathering resources to fight the Iconians. That's why they're doing so much research on Dewa III. Or were, before these humanoid upstarts came in and started shooting at them for no reason.
And yes, I am going to keep writing Tholian propaganda until we get a Tholian faction. Why do you ask?
That sounds about right to me, its blatantly obvious that peace with the Undine will happen on the Undines terms, and they are currently not interested in the slightest, they don't play nice with the 'weak'
Then in addition to being willfully ignorant and complete ****ing morons tactically*, they've got their heads up their asses. I think by now we've abundantly proven we're the exact opposite of "weak". Seriously, how many times have we completely and utterly trashed them?
Stuff like this is exactly why many of us here say that much of STO is an Idiot Plot.
* Attacking through the Dyson sphere? Really? So, in other words, you're throwing all your forces at a choke point when you can make a rift wherever the hell you please.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Eh, my pet hypothesis is that it's hard to navigate and/or go to warp in fluidic space, and/or the Undine lack efficient FTL travel. So the Iconian gates provide a nice, quick method to get troops from one side of fluidic space to the other, by building up troops at one spot, transferring to the regular universe, gating somewhere, then using a fluidic rift to get back to the new spot in fluidic space.
I guess it cuts down in energy costs.
1) Both the Voth and the Alliance found the sphere at the same time.
2) It really isn't their sphere nor is it really ours as it was built by the Solanae by order of the Iconians
3) Omega Directive trumps even the Prime Directive because of it's subspace destroying properties.
4) The Voth are fighting the Undine, not the Borg.
5) There are defections from the Voth to the Alliance, so not a total diplomacy fail on our part as it is because of their racist doctrine.
http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/10052253
Why are you not rejoicing?
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Not to mention the comment about the enemy wanting to "add them (the Voth) to their own ranks (the "mysterious" enemy")" with choice words like "resistance" and "futile." Along with the very GREEN energy weapons in the cut scene, think very carefully about whose MO this sounds like....
Oh, I don't know, the Talarian Republic?
:cool::P:D
Yeah, the Devs even outright stated it was the Borg in s9 dev blog 1.
Tier 2 actually but I digress. The weapons used are a little ambiguous. Even if they are plasma weapons, any race could use plasma weapons, not just the Borg. Also, the dialogue that Nelen Exil gives during that cutscene states that while they were successful in teaching Doctrine to other species and that weapons were not required, only furthers my belief that the attackers on the Citadel were meant to be generic aliens.
Granted, but still remains ambiguous.
http://community.arcgames.com/en/news/star-trek-online/detail/3038123
I don't see it.
http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/10052253
Why are you not rejoicing?
Ahem:
Nelen Exil: "The Voth are not warmongers. We have taught Doctrine to weaker species, but weapons are usually not required. When the Voth have encountered opposition, we have resisted attempts by others to add us to their own ranks. Fights between evenly matched adversaries tend to be futile. A Sphere might convince some that the odds have shifted in our favor.".
Typo on my part. Here: http://community.arcgames.com/en/news/star-trek-online/detail/3041273-season-9-dev-blog-%2311
I'm starting to think you guys are looking too deeply into the text. Nelen Exil might as well have picked those words at random.
http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/10052253
Why are you not rejoicing?
Oh please, it's not even subtle. Cryptic has never been subtle, and Cryptic's own admission that it's the Borg proves you wrong anyway.
But combined with the coloring of the weapons used (Borg plasma is disruptor green) and plasma torpedoes.
Pretty damn obvious it's the Borg if you actually use your brain.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Borg v. Voth. QED.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Would be nice if you actually had the material at hand.
This guy is doing it right.
But to go back to my point 4: the Borg are a comparatively less of a threat as compared to the Undine.
http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/10052253
Why are you not rejoicing?
When I added that comment, ba'alfan had already corrected himself by linking to the right blog entry. Why would I have needed to link to it again? It seems superfluous to do so.
Breen: Always like to pick a fight no matter what
Klingons: You still decide to fight against the Borg together, then mutually help out in Romulan, Nukara, and Dyson, and then finally agreed with the Klingons that the Fed was wrong, which led to a ceasefire with a really good prospect of alliance. I would call that a successful diplomacy in the end.
I'd like to see more of the Breen in STO, for sure.
Klingons, yes. They are an honorable people, if you admit that you f*cked up, they will let you back into the Khitomer Accords.
Breen: Realistically we know frak-all about them. As previously mentioned, the fact they're a confederacy means it's entirely possible they're pretty heavily factionalized.
Klingons: Were you not paying attention? We just ended that war, one which started because Cryptic decided to do a complete rehash of seasons 4-5 of DS9 with an added dose of stupid-as-frak on the Federation side.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Well the voth are also pretty stubborn in that regard, not only do we destroy them by the thousands, ( Space battlezone has you kill at least 130 ships in 5 mins) , but the Undine can destroy some of their most powerful vessels in a single strike , maybe they should admit the Mammals are superior and go home while they still exist as a civilisation.
As for the Undine, I have no idea how they managed to squander the massive advantage their infiltration gave them, Tactical data regarding Ships, weapons and manpower on tap, wand they still fail bring the neccessary firepower to the fight when they do show up
Come to think of it, every single faction throws itself at us in waves, common gaming trope I know but still its just strange from an in universe point of view. I have serious doubts we maybe get some tougher shingle ships to fight ?Instead of ineffective reinforcements of weak mobs
Sounds to me like it's an even fight between the two, but it's slowly wearing the Voth down. The Borg do have a few advantages over the Voth, after all.