it seems we have the same silly misconceptions and generalizations in here that are perpetuated elsewhere ...
First, people confusing DPV with DPS!
A DHC's does have the highest capable damage output of any weapon type IN ONE SHOT ... this is DPV!
DBB's (and to a much lesser degree BA's, Turrets and single cannons) Can firs CONSTANT DAMAGE of a LONG period of time ... this is DPS!
It's simply the game mechanics, and common sense.
A Sniper Rifle is technically more powerful than a similar caliber pistol and capable of one shot killing a target, but it has a slow firing cycle, and if you don't get a kill on the first shot, you're dead.
The pistol on the other hand can may kill, or at least wound 6 -15 targets before it's firing cycle ends.
So which one gives the best, or highest potential damage output? The answer is, both and neither, they both have their place.
So unless you can 100% guarantee a kill on the first hit, and for DHC's that means you being atl east within 6k's of the target when you fire, DBB's will far, far, FAR outperform DHC's during the course of a whole battle/mission.
Well, I'll just let them beat each other up over there in the corner.
To Answer the OP's question: Beam Array's can broadside, Dual Beam Banks cannot. They do not have the firing arc as was stated.
That much I know. the issue is that in terms of DPS calculation, boardide is always superior... so I am wondering if I should keep it as DBB + torpedo, or go with boardside instead?
That much I know. the issue is that in terms of DPS calculation, boardide is always superior... so I am wondering if I should keep it as DBB + torpedo, or go with boardside instead?
To answer that question and to make it simple ... How much power can you maintain?
If you can keep your power level over 125 with DBB's firing, then you shouldn't have any trouble with broadsides ...
Some of your later hits might only be at 100% and not over capped, but as long as your pwer stays at least at 100 during a full firing cycle. then by all means try BA's and broadsides ...
.......
I still think the best combination is 1,2, or 3 DBB's up front with 1 or 2 BA's + a Torp up front, and BA's or KCB, ODBA in the rear with a BA and/or another Torp (for a 'parting gift') ...
QUOTE=warmaker001b;16721561]Skillpoint efficiency, considering torpedoes are only effective if the shields are completely and utterably down.
Boosting up Torpedo Skills alongside your Energy Weapons Skills is very costly. In addition, shields in PVE and PVP have something like a 75% resist against Kinetic, which all Torpedoes are. If even a sliver of minimal shields come up on a hull side you thought was exposed with down shields when you fired your torps, rest assured, most of your torp damage will be negated.
Torpedoes are effective when the target is only in a certain condition. Energy Weapons? They are always effective no matter the state of the target.
With these factors in mind, a number will completely ignore torps altogether, dropping anything and everything related to them.
It takes far more work in making torpedoes effective, most esp. so for those Pure 100% Torp Boats out there. But Beams & Cannons? You don't have to worry about anything, just pummel the target regardless of its state.
I used to do Torpedo Boats, but got sick and tired of STO's mechanic where Torpedoes are only circumstantial weapons, when in Star Trek, they were the first and preferred means of attack, regardless of battlefield conditions. There's ways in making torps effective in STO, but the labor was too much for minimal gain compared to doing something like 3 DHCs + 1 DBB + Turrets, or all 7-8 Beam Arrays with FAW, and never worry about how effective my attacks are because there's a sliver of shields that came up the last second.[/QUOTE]
Science Ships can be very effective Torpedo Boats as they are the only ones with enough science Boff ability shots for shield stripping specials. You won't get near the dps as energy, but if you want a lot of LOLs build a sci ship with rapid reload transphasics and 3 PWOs.
On another note, I run 3 DBBs on my Mobius with Engineer CPT and never have power issues. My Aux power is usually the lowest of the 4 at 89.
To answer that question and to make it simple ... How much power can you maintain?
If you can keep your power level over 125 with DBB's firing, then you shouldn't have any trouble with broadsides ...
Some of your later hits might only be at 100% and not over capped, but as long as your pwer stays at least at 100 during a full firing cycle. then by all means try BA's and broadsides ...
.......
I still think the best combination is 1,2, or 3 DBB's up front with 1 or 2 BA's + a Torp up front, and BA's or KCB, ODBA in the rear with a BA and/or another Torp (for a 'parting gift') ...
Well, if good boardside power is over 90 when all fire, then I don't have that much, 60 if I am lucky.
Dhcs still beat DBBs. Neither compare to beam arrays
Not with over capping. You can FaW with up to 5 DBB and 2 rear 360 beams without dropping below 125power. I would take that over beam arrays or DHC anyday.
I have 2 DBB and 2 arrays with 1 torp on front and 3 arrays on back of a avenger. With the help of a friend on keybinds managed 10k dps and that is with tetryon. Having a lot of fun
Not with over capping. You can FaW with up to 5 DBB and 2 rear 360 beams without dropping below 125power. I would take that over beam arrays or DHC anyday.
Beam arrays still win out though, you need to reposition more with dbbs
Now Rarity, Mk number, and modifiers have the same percentage effects on weapons regardless of type. Same with crit, crit magnitude, e.t.c. That means we can use the listed values in those links for comparison.
So:
DHC: 256 DPS
Turrets: 132DPS
Beam Array's: 176DPS.
That means 8 beams without power drain factored in do 1408DPS
4 DHC do 1024DPS
And 3 Turrets do 396DPS.
This means an 8 beam cruiser does 1408DPS and a 4DHC/3Turret escort does 1420DPS.
See how the DHC build has better DPS.
To catch one other point:
You're thinking of old STO, where dual heavies always trump beams. They don't any more. Now it's all about beams.
Sort of. You might want to go back and re-read the thread a bit. the argument is specifically what happens when you are NOT RUNNING AUX TO BATTERY BUILDS, Beams have taken precedence not because of any mechanical changes to the weapons, (all the stats as well as the patch notes say they are as they where), but because Canons don't benefit as much from power overcapping and A2B allows higher uptimes on beam abilities whilst combining them with other powers you couldn't previously.
Take that power overcapping away and cut down power comboing and uptime capabilities by removing A2B and all the mechanics that made DHC's superior in old STO and that are still present today come back into force and tell beams to go take a hike. 5/3 ships just make this far worse because that extra front weapon slot widens the disparity even further.
Let me be clear:
I AM NOT CLAIMING THAT CANNONS ARE SUPERIOR IN AN AUXILIARY TO BATTERY BUILD, THEY ARE ABSOLUTELY, DEFINITELY, UNDENIABLY, NOT.
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the
<sigh> It's simple ... But I'll try and explain it in simpler terms ...
1 x shot per 10 secs from a DHC = 500 damage or 500 DPV
100 x shots per 10 secs from Beams,Turrets = 5000 damage or 5000 DPS
Over a 60 sec battle, which one do YOU think does more damage?
..........
This thread has some great information, and some not so great, but all of it is useful in finding your OWN combination that works. Power levels are WAY more important than many give credit for, probably THE most important aspect of the game ...
If while running BA's the OP is dropping to 60 and below, then I'd suggest that the power management needs to be addressed first.
Without a good balance of power, you cant use many of the skills and BoFF powers need to get the most from your weapons, plus the weapons themselves aren't firing at their optimum efficiency.
I, and many, many, MANY others KNOW , that Beams and DBB's in STO = better and more consistent damage.
I know I can clear a map in 1/4 of the time running a combination of BA's, DBB's and Torps, than I can with DHC's, WITHOUT spamming Aux2Bat! Just a proper thought out combination of Captain Skills, Ship Equipment and BoFF/DoFF skills and abilities ...
And there is a large majority of other players, who apparently agree. So that's all that matters to me.
is check out this site Carl, after parsing your own dps...i have a feeling you never have and will be shocked on how little you do compared to the monsters on that site
Seems like not many have commented on it but a couple things to factor in with cannons vs beam banks.
Time to travel, and reduced damage at range.
Ever been in a super group where the 4 other BFAW players are runnin A2B and overcapped and putting out serious hurt, and because their beams are INSTANT travel before your cannon shots even make it to the target it explodes.
Ive never seen myself waste beam shots on a target that died before they hit.
Ive seen tons of times my cannon shots went thru a ship that some beams took out first.
Ranged damage reduction of cannons is TWICE that of beams,but starts 1 km farther out.
Beams get 4% loss per km after 1.
Cannons get 8% loss per km after 2.
Guess who is doing more damage at 7km, instantly instead of the 2-3s the cannon shots take?
A DBB provides 30% more blam than the corresponding Beam Array, while drawing the same power. Therefore, if for every beam array you give up, you gain about 4 DBBs, you will gain a slight edge in damage on target. Since, on a 4/3 boat, you will have to give up 2-3 beams to gain 4 DBBs, this is a net loss, unless you are using AP beams. With APs, you only give up 1 slot, as your KCB and 360 will still be on target, leaving only a single dead weapon, and thus you gain an edge here. With a Kumari, you win, since you still have all 7 weapons on target, except 5 can now be DBBs.
The drawback is that you may lose out slightly in spray DPS because you may not have as many targets of opportunity as an array boat's 360-degree spraying, but you will gain considerably greater concentrated killing power as your lethal area is now confined to a 90-degree zone in front of you, restricting the number of targets which get sprayed randomly instead of eating concentrated fire.
A DBB provides 30% more beam than the corresponding Beam Array, while drawing the same power. Therefore, if for every beam array you give up, you gain about 4 DBBs, you will gain a slight edge in damage on target. Since, on a 4/3 boat, you will have to give up 2-3 beams to gain 4 DBBs, this is a net loss, unless you are using AP beams. With APs, you only give up 1 slot, as your KCB and 360 will still be on target, leaving only a single dead weapon, and thus you gain an edge here. With a Kumari, you win, since you still have all 7 weapons on target, except 5 can now be DBBs.
The drawback is that you may lose out slightly in spray DPS because you may not have as many targets of opportunity as an array boat's 360-degree spraying, but you will gain considerably greater concentrated killing power as your lethal area is now confined to a 90-degree zone in front of you, restricting the number of targets which get sprayed randomly instead of eating concentrated fire.
Thanks, that's more or less something that I noticed. In normal fights, it does not matter that much, and thus, also factoring into power draw (since DBB draw the same amount as a single BA), DBB is better on battlecruiser type than beam array. This is especially when using BFAW.
However, with the undine content, a DBB focus build angle is still too small to be effective, due to Undine glob is very annoying, and the battlefield actually include z-axis. This is especially evideneced in Vicious Cycle, where you have to aim donward to kill the proto-planet killer.
In short, if I am doing any of the old stuff, with good enough hangar pets, DBB will give Kar'fi the best choice, but new content, which actually used Z-axis, favor BA more.
Overcapping is easy at least on cruisers. Take my Avenger dump max power into weapons whatever is left into shields. Fit the borg console for 5+ weapon power. Fit a warp core with shield power diverted into weapons that puts me at about 125 weapon power. Activate -25% weapon power command so all 5 front DBB drain -8 power. So all I need now is 32power to stay at 125power. Thats easy a few skill points in weapon performance and EptW3 and I get a DPS boost along with over 40 weapons power well over what I need to stay at 125. Now in the rear slots add on the experimental Rom plasma beam array with 0 power drain and the two 360 beams which activates the set power +10 weapon power and -500% weapon drain. Way over the power needed to fire all 8 beams none stop with zero power drain.
Then there is the DEM trick with doff which lowers weapon power by what was it 800%?. Aux2bat builds which boost weapon power more, Leech console and more.
A FaW build with DBB does not waste a significant percentage of its fire power. Unlike beam arrays the DBB build has its fire power focused in a narrow arc forwards at the target you want. Its no worse than scatter volley which might hit the wrong target.
Overcapping is easy at least on cruisers. Take my Avenger dump max power into weapons whatever is left into shields. Fit the borg console for 5+ weapon power. Fit a warp core with shield power diverted into weapons that puts me at about 125 weapon power. Activate -25% weapon power command so all 5 front DBB drain -8 power. So all I need now is 32power to stay at 125power. Thats easy a few skill points in weapon performance and EptW3 and I get a DPS boost along with over 40 weapons power well over what I need to stay at 125. Now in the rear slots add on the experimental Rom plasma beam array with 0 power drain and the two 360 beams which activates the set power +10 weapon power and -500% weapon drain. Way over the power needed to fire all 8 beams none stop with zero power drain.
Then there is the DEM trick with doff which lowers weapon power by what was it 800%?. Aux2bat builds which boost weapon power more, Leech console and more.
A FaW build with DBB does not waste a significant percentage of its fire power. Unlike beam arrays the DBB build has its fire power focused in a narrow arc forwards at the target you want. Its no worse than scatter volley which might hit the wrong target.
Here's the thing. This isn't how overcapping actually works. I linked the test results way back on page 2, (i'll drop em at the end of this), according to what your saying then going from 125 to 130 weapons power should boost DPS by exactly as much, (in absolute, not percentile terms), as going from 120 to 125 does. The data shows this isn't the case with 120-125 giving 17 extra DPS compared to +10 DPS for 125-130. The trend holds true as you overcap more. Going from 125-154 should give around 100 extra DPS, it gives only 77.
Also where talking about a hypothetical Cannons vs Beam setup. That means a ship nimble enough to use cannons. That means no cruiser commands and raiders and a few special ships aside no more than 1 Lt and one Ensign engineering. Now try to overcap enough, (according to the old data you need 164 power with a 200% transfer rate boost to get 7 beams = to 4DHC and 3 Turrets).
Here's the thing. This isn't how overcapping actually works. I linked the test results way back on page 2, (i'll drop em at the end of this), according to what your saying then going from 125 to 130 weapons power should boost DPS by exactly as much, (in absolute, not percentile terms), as going from 120 to 125 does. The data shows this isn't the case with 120-125 giving 17 extra DPS compared to +10 DPS for 125-130. The trend holds true as you overcap more. Going from 125-154 should give around 100 extra DPS, it gives only 77.
Also where talking about a hypothetical Cannons vs Beam setup. That means a ship nimble enough to use cannons. That means no cruiser commands and raiders and a few special ships aside no more than 1 Lt and one Ensign engineering. Now try to overcap enough, (according to the old data you need 164 power with a 200% transfer rate boost to get 7 beams = to 4DHC and 3 Turrets).
@Dahume: Once the dil weekend has ended i'll dig up the updated parser and break out my old Patrol Escor and do some runs with the parser on for you.
I think it can still be done what is it 15 from leech console? 10+ from weapon performance skill, +5 from borg console. Then when the borg set triggers +10 per trigger with a reduction in energy cost to fire. That’s 155 without the borg triggers. Then use the experimental beam array which doesn’t drain power. So only 6 beams to power, which seems doable although I never tried on an Escort. Either way DDB over capped with FaW can be pretty deadly as its so much more focused DPS on the targets you want over beam arrays. I would take cannons over beam arrays but DBB over cannons. Partly because I prefer the way DBB look.
You also do not get the large DPS dropoff for range cannons suffer from.
I detect a slight change in thinking. Things like changing aux2bat to now overcapping and other slight changes
It's just goes back to the first page about how I was thinking exactly like you.
The problem is that the people that truly care about dps, use infected elite as the bench mark. Flying around greatly favors beams over cannons....and it's all due to the arc difference.
I'll gladly fly with ya. But i think my point is starting to strike home
If there was an instance that only contained 3 planet killers close together, or one planet killer by itself...Cannons trump beams.
There is no instance like that, so the dps community uses infected elite...Cannons don't stand a chance.
I detect a slight change in thinking. Things like changing aux2bat to now overcapping and other slight changes
Without A2B you can't overcap to the necessary degree without flying a cruiser with Lt Cmdr and Cmdr engineering,. that cuts your FAW uptime in half.
And doing that costs you ability boosts to DPS which counteracts the overcap advantage.
I never said it was A2B because A2B does somthing special alone but because A2B is the only way to get a specific combination of extreme power levels, extreme shield resists to survive stuff, and super low cooldowns on DPS boosting skills all at the same time.
Without A2B's cooldown reduction you cannot overcap your power by the amount needed, have any kind of tank, and have multiple copies of a high level FAW all at the same time. Take one away and your build becomes either lower DPS or completely non-viable.
Thats why i asked for an actual build that can out-perform cannons without A2B.
Likewise ISE favors cannons, not beams because there's no time off target longer than half a second unless you can't fly or are crossing from one tarnsformer to the next, (where you aren't firing), and cannons are getting full ability boosts whilst Beams only get it at the start and the end, (using it at any other time produces a false DPS figures as one or more of the targets being hit will instantly heal all damage, and a cannon build running CSV instead of CRF would still TRIBBLE all over it if your willing to accept that kind of lie).
Quite simply put if pros are using ISE as proof of better beam DPS they are flat out lying because the only way to get better beam DPS in any borg STF is to shoot at invulnerable targets to pad your stats. Take that out and their lack of ability boost nerfs them by a good 20%.
Use an actual valid enemy group like the spawns in fleet actions, (which CSV pisses all over beams on if there's any form of grav well available), or the Azure groups. (higher escort impulse modifiers and CSV again TRIBBLE on beams).
You know when i parse i think i'll dig out a cruiser and compare high uptime FAW where i waste DPS to actual effective DPS and see just how inflated those ISE numbers are.
Without A2B you can't overcap to the necessary degree without flying a cruiser with Lt Cmdr and Cmdr engineering,. that cuts your FAW uptime in half.
And doing that costs you ability boosts to DPS which counteracts the overcap advantage.
I never said it was A2B because A2B does somthing special alone but because A2B is the only way to get a specific combination of extreme power levels, extreme shield resists to survive stuff, and super low cooldowns on DPS boosting skills all at the same time.
Without A2B's cooldown reduction you cannot overcap your power by the amount needed, have any kind of tank, and have multiple copies of a high level FAW all at the same time. Take one away and your build becomes either lower DPS or completely non-viable.
Thats why i asked for an actual build that can out-perform cannons without A2B.
Likewise ISE favors cannons, not beams because there's no time off target longer than half a second unless you can't fly or are crossing from one tarnsformer to the next, (where you aren't firing), and cannons are getting full ability boosts whilst Beams only get it at the start and the end, (using it at any other time produces a false DPS figures as one or more of the targets being hit will instantly heal all damage, and a cannon build running CSV instead of CRF would still TRIBBLE all over it if your willing to accept that kind of lie).
Quite simply put if pros are using ISE as proof of better beam DPS they are flat out lying because the only way to get better beam DPS in any borg STF is to shoot at invulnerable targets to pad your stats. Take that out and their lack of ability boost nerfs them by a good 20%.
Use an actual valid enemy group like the spawns in fleet actions, (which CSV pisses all over beams on if there's any form of grav well available), or the Azure groups. (higher escort impulse modifiers and CSV again TRIBBLE on beams).
You know when i parse i think i'll dig out a cruiser and compare high uptime FAW where i waste DPS to actual effective DPS and see just how inflated those ISE numbers are.
The argument about wasted DPS V actual effective DPS is not really valid. Scatter volley wastes around the same DPS on invulnerable targets as DBB with FaW. Sure Beam arrays waste a ton of damage but DBB V Cannons and it’s a different story with a good pilot. DBB have far less wasted DPS for targets beyond 3km range and far less wasted DPS from energy power dropping then cannons. You don't need a A2B build to overcap beams on an Escort my post above proves that.
As for the comments on Azure groups well for that cannons are a waste of time. Torps and mines are the best DPS for those. I don’t even bother with energy weapons for Azure groups as the DPS is way to low with cannons. Its all about the right weapon for the content you are doing and target.
EDIT: Plus what about the DBB reflecting beams? The set DBB has a100% chance to hit extra target. So FaW becomes far more deadly.
@carl
If there was an instance that only contained 3 planet killers close together, or one planet killer by itself...Cannons trump beams.
There is no instance like that, so the dps community uses infected elite...Cannons don't stand a chance.
Cannot might not be better with 3 planet killers as a FaW DBB build would be focused on those 3 killers. You would be getting crit hits at 125 power while the cannon build would be dropping down to below 100 power or less. The DBB FaW would hit all 3 killers at the same time just like cannons.
The problem with comparing cannons and beams is they are different weapons. Lets take the cannon it does burst dps and beams do constant dps. Yeah cannons have a higher burst dps than beams. But beams have a higher constant dps than cannons. So think of it this way which weapon is on target longer Arrays (I think 240), DBB (90) or Cannons (45).
Comments
First, people confusing DPV with DPS!
A DHC's does have the highest capable damage output of any weapon type IN ONE SHOT ... this is DPV!
DBB's (and to a much lesser degree BA's, Turrets and single cannons) Can firs CONSTANT DAMAGE of a LONG period of time ... this is DPS!
It's simply the game mechanics, and common sense.
A Sniper Rifle is technically more powerful than a similar caliber pistol and capable of one shot killing a target, but it has a slow firing cycle, and if you don't get a kill on the first shot, you're dead.
The pistol on the other hand can may kill, or at least wound 6 -15 targets before it's firing cycle ends.
So which one gives the best, or highest potential damage output? The answer is, both and neither, they both have their place.
So unless you can 100% guarantee a kill on the first hit, and for DHC's that means you being atl east within 6k's of the target when you fire, DBB's will far, far, FAR outperform DHC's during the course of a whole battle/mission.
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
To Answer the OP's question: Beam Array's can broadside, Dual Beam Banks cannot. They do not have the firing arc as was stated.
Defending The Galaxy By Breaking One Starfleet Regulation After The Next.
That much I know. the issue is that in terms of DPS calculation, boardide is always superior... so I am wondering if I should keep it as DBB + torpedo, or go with boardside instead?
To answer that question and to make it simple ... How much power can you maintain?
If you can keep your power level over 125 with DBB's firing, then you shouldn't have any trouble with broadsides ...
Some of your later hits might only be at 100% and not over capped, but as long as your pwer stays at least at 100 during a full firing cycle. then by all means try BA's and broadsides ...
.......
I still think the best combination is 1,2, or 3 DBB's up front with 1 or 2 BA's + a Torp up front, and BA's or KCB, ODBA in the rear with a BA and/or another Torp (for a 'parting gift') ...
Boosting up Torpedo Skills alongside your Energy Weapons Skills is very costly. In addition, shields in PVE and PVP have something like a 75% resist against Kinetic, which all Torpedoes are. If even a sliver of minimal shields come up on a hull side you thought was exposed with down shields when you fired your torps, rest assured, most of your torp damage will be negated.
Torpedoes are effective when the target is only in a certain condition. Energy Weapons? They are always effective no matter the state of the target.
With these factors in mind, a number will completely ignore torps altogether, dropping anything and everything related to them.
It takes far more work in making torpedoes effective, most esp. so for those Pure 100% Torp Boats out there. But Beams & Cannons? You don't have to worry about anything, just pummel the target regardless of its state.
I used to do Torpedo Boats, but got sick and tired of STO's mechanic where Torpedoes are only circumstantial weapons, when in Star Trek, they were the first and preferred means of attack, regardless of battlefield conditions. There's ways in making torps effective in STO, but the labor was too much for minimal gain compared to doing something like 3 DHCs + 1 DBB + Turrets, or all 7-8 Beam Arrays with FAW, and never worry about how effective my attacks are because there's a sliver of shields that came up the last second.[/QUOTE]
Science Ships can be very effective Torpedo Boats as they are the only ones with enough science Boff ability shots for shield stripping specials. You won't get near the dps as energy, but if you want a lot of LOLs build a sci ship with rapid reload transphasics and 3 PWOs.
On another note, I run 3 DBBs on my Mobius with Engineer CPT and never have power issues. My Aux power is usually the lowest of the 4 at 89.
You're thinking of old STO, where dual heavies always trump beams. They don't any more. Now it's all about beams.
Dhcs still beat DBBs. Neither compare to beam arrays
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
Well, if good boardside power is over 90 when all fire, then I don't have that much, 60 if I am lucky.
Beam arrays still win out though, you need to reposition more with dbbs
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
Obligatory links:
DHC
Turret
Beam Array
Now Rarity, Mk number, and modifiers have the same percentage effects on weapons regardless of type. Same with crit, crit magnitude, e.t.c. That means we can use the listed values in those links for comparison.
So:
DHC: 256 DPS
Turrets: 132DPS
Beam Array's: 176DPS.
That means 8 beams without power drain factored in do 1408DPS
4 DHC do 1024DPS
And 3 Turrets do 396DPS.
This means an 8 beam cruiser does 1408DPS and a 4DHC/3Turret escort does 1420DPS.
See how the DHC build has better DPS.
To catch one other point:
Sort of. You might want to go back and re-read the thread a bit. the argument is specifically what happens when you are NOT RUNNING AUX TO BATTERY BUILDS, Beams have taken precedence not because of any mechanical changes to the weapons, (all the stats as well as the patch notes say they are as they where), but because Canons don't benefit as much from power overcapping and A2B allows higher uptimes on beam abilities whilst combining them with other powers you couldn't previously.
Take that power overcapping away and cut down power comboing and uptime capabilities by removing A2B and all the mechanics that made DHC's superior in old STO and that are still present today come back into force and tell beams to go take a hike. 5/3 ships just make this far worse because that extra front weapon slot widens the disparity even further.
Let me be clear:
I AM NOT CLAIMING THAT CANNONS ARE SUPERIOR IN AN AUXILIARY TO BATTERY BUILD, THEY ARE ABSOLUTELY, DEFINITELY, UNDENIABLY, NOT.
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the
Perfect World
Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~Bluegeek
Cannons would only win if there was an instance with 3 closely packed together immovable objects with hulls in the billions.
But due to how instances are designed, cannons will always have to reposition...continuous fire is impossible.
That is really how it is...
Try parsing yourself or get into the dps channels...you may understand then
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
1 x shot per 10 secs from a DHC = 500 damage or 500 DPV
100 x shots per 10 secs from Beams,Turrets = 5000 damage or 5000 DPS
Over a 60 sec battle, which one do YOU think does more damage?
..........
This thread has some great information, and some not so great, but all of it is useful in finding your OWN combination that works. Power levels are WAY more important than many give credit for, probably THE most important aspect of the game ...
If while running BA's the OP is dropping to 60 and below, then I'd suggest that the power management needs to be addressed first.
Without a good balance of power, you cant use many of the skills and BoFF powers need to get the most from your weapons, plus the weapons themselves aren't firing at their optimum efficiency.
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~Bluegeek
I know I can clear a map in 1/4 of the time running a combination of BA's, DBB's and Torps, than I can with DHC's, WITHOUT spamming Aux2Bat! Just a proper thought out combination of Captain Skills, Ship Equipment and BoFF/DoFF skills and abilities ...
And there is a large majority of other players, who apparently agree. So that's all that matters to me.
is check out this site Carl, after parsing your own dps...i have a feeling you never have and will be shocked on how little you do compared to the monsters on that site
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
Time to travel, and reduced damage at range.
Ever been in a super group where the 4 other BFAW players are runnin A2B and overcapped and putting out serious hurt, and because their beams are INSTANT travel before your cannon shots even make it to the target it explodes.
Ive never seen myself waste beam shots on a target that died before they hit.
Ive seen tons of times my cannon shots went thru a ship that some beams took out first.
Ranged damage reduction of cannons is TWICE that of beams,but starts 1 km farther out.
Beams get 4% loss per km after 1.
Cannons get 8% loss per km after 2.
Guess who is doing more damage at 7km, instantly instead of the 2-3s the cannon shots take?
The drawback is that you may lose out slightly in spray DPS because you may not have as many targets of opportunity as an array boat's 360-degree spraying, but you will gain considerably greater concentrated killing power as your lethal area is now confined to a 90-degree zone in front of you, restricting the number of targets which get sprayed randomly instead of eating concentrated fire.
Thanks, that's more or less something that I noticed. In normal fights, it does not matter that much, and thus, also factoring into power draw (since DBB draw the same amount as a single BA), DBB is better on battlecruiser type than beam array. This is especially when using BFAW.
However, with the undine content, a DBB focus build angle is still too small to be effective, due to Undine glob is very annoying, and the battlefield actually include z-axis. This is especially evideneced in Vicious Cycle, where you have to aim donward to kill the proto-planet killer.
In short, if I am doing any of the old stuff, with good enough hangar pets, DBB will give Kar'fi the best choice, but new content, which actually used Z-axis, favor BA more.
Overcapping is easy at least on cruisers. Take my Avenger dump max power into weapons whatever is left into shields. Fit the borg console for 5+ weapon power. Fit a warp core with shield power diverted into weapons that puts me at about 125 weapon power. Activate -25% weapon power command so all 5 front DBB drain -8 power. So all I need now is 32power to stay at 125power. Thats easy a few skill points in weapon performance and EptW3 and I get a DPS boost along with over 40 weapons power well over what I need to stay at 125. Now in the rear slots add on the experimental Rom plasma beam array with 0 power drain and the two 360 beams which activates the set power +10 weapon power and -500% weapon drain. Way over the power needed to fire all 8 beams none stop with zero power drain.
Then there is the DEM trick with doff which lowers weapon power by what was it 800%?. Aux2bat builds which boost weapon power more, Leech console and more.
A FaW build with DBB does not waste a significant percentage of its fire power. Unlike beam arrays the DBB build has its fire power focused in a narrow arc forwards at the target you want. Its no worse than scatter volley which might hit the wrong target.
Here's the thing. This isn't how overcapping actually works. I linked the test results way back on page 2, (i'll drop em at the end of this), according to what your saying then going from 125 to 130 weapons power should boost DPS by exactly as much, (in absolute, not percentile terms), as going from 120 to 125 does. The data shows this isn't the case with 120-125 giving 17 extra DPS compared to +10 DPS for 125-130. The trend holds true as you overcap more. Going from 125-154 should give around 100 extra DPS, it gives only 77.
Also where talking about a hypothetical Cannons vs Beam setup. That means a ship nimble enough to use cannons. That means no cruiser commands and raiders and a few special ships aside no more than 1 Lt and one Ensign engineering. Now try to overcap enough, (according to the old data you need 164 power with a 200% transfer rate boost to get 7 beams = to 4DHC and 3 Turrets).
Linky again: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Asu87Jb5VCBgdHFKbmdpZjlEMHk3YUhfNGRTbllNY0E&output=html
@Dahume: Once the dil weekend has ended i'll dig up the updated parser and break out my old Patrol Escor and do some runs with the parser on for you.
You also do not get the large DPS dropoff for range cannons suffer from.
I detect a slight change in thinking. Things like changing aux2bat to now overcapping and other slight changes
It's just goes back to the first page about how I was thinking exactly like you.
The problem is that the people that truly care about dps, use infected elite as the bench mark. Flying around greatly favors beams over cannons....and it's all due to the arc difference.
I'll gladly fly with ya. But i think my point is starting to strike home
If there was an instance that only contained 3 planet killers close together, or one planet killer by itself...Cannons trump beams.
There is no instance like that, so the dps community uses infected elite...Cannons don't stand a chance.
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
Without A2B you can't overcap to the necessary degree without flying a cruiser with Lt Cmdr and Cmdr engineering,. that cuts your FAW uptime in half.
And doing that costs you ability boosts to DPS which counteracts the overcap advantage.
I never said it was A2B because A2B does somthing special alone but because A2B is the only way to get a specific combination of extreme power levels, extreme shield resists to survive stuff, and super low cooldowns on DPS boosting skills all at the same time.
Without A2B's cooldown reduction you cannot overcap your power by the amount needed, have any kind of tank, and have multiple copies of a high level FAW all at the same time. Take one away and your build becomes either lower DPS or completely non-viable.
Thats why i asked for an actual build that can out-perform cannons without A2B.
Likewise ISE favors cannons, not beams because there's no time off target longer than half a second unless you can't fly or are crossing from one tarnsformer to the next, (where you aren't firing), and cannons are getting full ability boosts whilst Beams only get it at the start and the end, (using it at any other time produces a false DPS figures as one or more of the targets being hit will instantly heal all damage, and a cannon build running CSV instead of CRF would still TRIBBLE all over it if your willing to accept that kind of lie).
Quite simply put if pros are using ISE as proof of better beam DPS they are flat out lying because the only way to get better beam DPS in any borg STF is to shoot at invulnerable targets to pad your stats. Take that out and their lack of ability boost nerfs them by a good 20%.
Use an actual valid enemy group like the spawns in fleet actions, (which CSV pisses all over beams on if there's any form of grav well available), or the Azure groups. (higher escort impulse modifiers and CSV again TRIBBLE on beams).
You know when i parse i think i'll dig out a cruiser and compare high uptime FAW where i waste DPS to actual effective DPS and see just how inflated those ISE numbers are.
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
As for the comments on Azure groups well for that cannons are a waste of time. Torps and mines are the best DPS for those. I don’t even bother with energy weapons for Azure groups as the DPS is way to low with cannons. Its all about the right weapon for the content you are doing and target.
EDIT: Plus what about the DBB reflecting beams? The set DBB has a100% chance to hit extra target. So FaW becomes far more deadly.
Cannot might not be better with 3 planet killers as a FaW DBB build would be focused on those 3 killers. You would be getting crit hits at 125 power while the cannon build would be dropping down to below 100 power or less. The DBB FaW would hit all 3 killers at the same time just like cannons.