Cannot might not be better with 3 planet killers as a FaW DBB build would be focused on those 3 killers. You would be getting crit hits at 125 power while the cannon build would be dropping down to below 100 power or less. The DBB FaW would hit all 3 killers at the same time just like cannons.
Actually faw causes your beams to only hit 1 extra target. Csv hits 2 extra.Csv lasts an additional 5 seconds over bfaw. Bfaw boosts damage by 42% and cannon scatter volley is only 25%
But the extra target and higher uptime will destroy beams. As beams normally destroys cannons in every other scenario.
Actually faw causes your beams to only hit 1 extra target. Csv hits 2 extra.Csv lasts an additional 5 seconds over bfaw. Bfaw boosts damage by 42% and cannon scatter volley is only 25%
But the extra target and higher uptime will destroy beams. As beams normally destroys cannons in every other scenario.
I am not convinced. The cannons get a smaller damage boost, lose more DPS from range, lose more DPS from being outside of arc, lose more DPS from energy drain. I had forgotten about the 2 target limit as I use refracting assault which grants additional FaW targets. But still would scatter Volley evenly have the arc to hit 3 planet killers?
I like the Dual Beam but don't always use JUST that.. some of my ships with 4 forward arrasy may use two and a beam array and a torp...or two beam arrays a towp and a dual beam for beam overload.. .. hard to get it tho to hit sometimes with that spike...
I think one as an aside.. or as with one of my two battle cruisers one runs cannons and dual beams.. the other has only one dual beam and no cannons.. all beam arrays.
it's just preference...
^Agreed. I'm trying for a DBB build on a Romulan cruiser (GW1 build on a D'Deridex) and I've found it's more effective on a slow-turning ship to not run all DBBs up front. (Plus, on the D'D in particular it looks really cool to have two beams from the wing mounts and one from the nose mount.)
My plan is 3 romplas DBBs and the experimental beam array in the front, and 3 beams and the KCB in the back.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Well, you can't broadside in a DBB. It has a 90 degree firing arc. Your best bet with DBB is to fight similar to cannons. You'll get more burst from the cannons but you can start your run from further out with DBBs
DBB's also have a wider firing arc. I have a cruiser that runs an AP build. It's a beam boat with a decent turning rate for a cruiser. It's very effective with 2 beam arrays and 2 DBB's fore and 2 arrays, the 360 array and the KCB aft. Fore that gives me 6 weapons firing with the two DBB's for extra punch. Broadside I get 6 weapons firing and aft 4 weapons firing. Usually by the time I may be turning away from the target on an attack run I've stripped their shields down enough that that KCB is doing some damage. Overall I like this build. It's a real "all rounder"
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Sorry for not getting back here for a bit. Work over weekend and a bit busy yesterday.
@pottsey5g: Apologies for utterly missing your post on power overcapping. Sorry. Must have been half asleep or something .
My main issue with your post is two fold.
1. Plasmonic leech unless your KDF side and have a specific ship, ( i admit i do), is very expensive and thus difficult to acquire, and it's only going to become more so as time goes on.
2. The Omega set bonus is a very low proc chance with a fairly short duration. Based on what i remember of my buff bar, (I admit i can't watch it too closely during combat), and how often weapon procs, (which are the same chance), go off i'd argue this is likely to be a low uptime buff. That cuts you down to just 135 without wrap core and 145 ish with one. As per the test results i've linked a couple of times now to counteract the damage difference between beams and cannons you need to get 165ish weapons power, (and thats with a +200% power transfer rate buff which does effect power bleedback from the overflow).
As for CSV. You have to remember, as long as you have 3 targets it's effectively a 3.6 times damage multiplier for CSV 2 vs FAW3's 1.4 multiplier. You can take a massive hit in damage from range and have a beam boat with significantly higher base DPS before abilities and it will still demolish them in DPS terms because that multiplier is so huge.
@dahminus: Still running tests as the Beam test hasd a low DPS supporting team compared to my cannon run but so far it's 3600 vs 4800 in favor of cannons. Patrol Escort for reference. I'll post some build screenshots whe i'm more sure of the results.
I have done some quick calculation, and assuming a 4-3 arrangement, with one of the forward a torpedo, the Beam array will create higher damage. Factoring into how fast enemy move now, when is a DBB build better than beam array boardside?
move your ship to a side, faw/a2b/eptw/cruiser weapons power/passive rep trait space weapons crit, shield pene and damage. doff marion and use dem and other doffs if you can to reduce any issues and maximize attack power. 8 beams firing from a side and the extra tactical advance is even if your enemy is behind or fore, you still 4 beams and since beam arcs are at? what 270 degree? that gives greater range and mobility. dual beams fire fore and not as powerful.
its a no brainer.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Either one kills things just fine, use what you like more. I personally hate the way multiple DBBs firing at once look, so I refuse to equip more than one and put arrays in any extra slots. But I also hate broadsiding and try to avoid it, even if it's effective. All about looks/fun to me, PvE's easy enough for anything to be effective.
What are you doing for the test? Auto fire? Just bfaw/csv from 125?
Those number see ridiculously low
I needed to be able to acquire identical mod stuff super cheap, (No reps fully ground out and not enough Dil/Fleet Cred for fleet gear due to my long break), so i went with vendor bought common quality MK IX Disruptor's. The tac consoles, (My Chimera is a Phaser ship but fed vendors don't sell cannons, dummies), where equally cheapskate MK X commons. Besides i was still pulling middle DPS in both runs so far, (total teamwide was only 21K and 27K respectively). I was using skills but consciously avoided captain DPS boosting abilities as how often and effectively you can use them is very dependent on the rest of the team so they could skew the results. I stuck with BOFF stuff.
I would like to note that a beamscort feels surprisingly fun though, i enjoyed it a LOT, certainly going to build one either way. Very distinct from a beam cruiser.
Sorry for not getting back here for a bit. Work over weekend and a bit busy yesterday.
@pottsey5g: Apologies for utterly missing your post on power overcapping. Sorry. Must have been half asleep or something .
My main issue with your post is two fold.
1. Plasmonic leech unless your KDF side and have a specific ship, ( i admit i do), is very expensive and thus difficult to acquire, and it's only going to become more so as time goes on.
2. The Omega set bonus is a very low proc chance with a fairly short duration. Based on what i remember of my buff bar, (I admit i can't watch it too closely during combat), and how often weapon procs, (which are the same chance), go off i'd argue this is likely to be a low uptime buff. That cuts you down to just 135 without wrap core and 145 ish with one. As per the test results i've linked a couple of times now to counteract the damage difference between beams and cannons you need to get 165ish weapons power, (and thats with a +200% power transfer rate buff which does effect power bleedback from the overflow).
As for CSV. You have to remember, as long as you have 3 targets it's effectively a 3.6 times damage multiplier for CSV 2 vs FAW3's 1.4 multiplier. You can take a massive hit in damage from range and have a beam boat with significantly higher base DPS before abilities and it will still demolish them in DPS terms because that multiplier is so huge.
@dahminus: Still running tests as the Beam test hasd a low DPS supporting team compared to my cannon run but so far it's 3600 vs 4800 in favor of cannons. Patrol Escort for reference. I'll post some build screenshots whe i'm more sure of the results.
Hadnt realized prices had changed that much I got mine when they were 1 million. For the power bonus you can always switch to the cheaper maco shield. Granted it only works when being shot at but its the same power as Leech effectively.
You say 165 power but what if one of the beams is the experimental beam that drains 0 power. What if you add 1 torp like the Rom set torp into the mix? Thats two less weapons draining power. So only 145power needed to overcap, would that change anything?
As for Omega I thought it proced a lot with 7 beams and FaW 3 but its not a combo I use myself much so I could be mistaken.
Was your test with DBB or beam arrays? Because I agree cannons are better than beam arrays.
The area I am not convinced about is DBB.
I needed to be able to acquire identical mod stuff super cheap, (No reps fully ground out and not enough Dil/Fleet Cred for fleet gear due to my long break), so i went with vendor bought common quality MK IX Disruptor's. The tac consoles, (My Chimera is a Phaser ship but fed vendors don't sell cannons, dummies), where equally cheapskate MK X commons. Besides i was still pulling middle DPS in both runs so far, (total teamwide was only 21K and 27K respectively). I was using skills but consciously avoided captain DPS boosting abilities as how often and effectively you can use them is very dependent on the rest of the team so they could skew the results. I stuck with BOFF stuff.
I would like to note that a beamscort feels surprisingly fun though, i enjoyed it a LOT, certainly going to build one either way. Very distinct from a beam cruiser.
What if it told you 27k dps is the average dps for a beam user that knows what he's doing?
What if it told you 27k dps is the average dps for a beam user that knows what he's doing?
I have a noob question. When people use DPS numbers like 27k, are they saying that they're doing 27k damage per second or 27k total damage? I'm just curious cause 27k damage per second sounds like alot of damage. But 27k total damage makes for sense. I play alot of MMOs that are just ground games and I'm not used to such high numbers.
I have a noob question. When people use DPS numbers like 27k, are they saying that they're doing 27k damage per second or 27k total damage? I'm just curious cause 27k damage per second sounds like alot of damage. But 27k total damage makes for sense. I play alot of MMOs that are just ground games and I'm not used to such high numbers.
Dps=damage per second
It's all relative to the game your playing.
What if I told you the best dpser in the game has done 81k dps?
I have a noob question. When people use DPS numbers like 27k, are they saying that they're doing 27k damage per second or 27k total damage? I'm just curious cause 27k damage per second sounds like alot of damage. But 27k total damage makes for sense. I play alot of MMOs that are just ground games and I'm not used to such high numbers.
They do mean 27k dps per second. When you run with a group like that you can do the Elite STFs in minuets. I can pull of bursts of 50k+ dps for waves in Azure. Takes 3 to 5 seconds to kill the entire group of ships most of that is just weapon travel time. Then its sit and wait for the next spawn.
What if it told you 27k dps is the average dps for a beam user that knows what he's doing?
I'd ask how that relevant to the testing i'm doing. The point here is to test the relative performance of beams vs cannons on an escort build. The percentage difference between the two numbers is what matters not the magnitude of each number. But it's important the test data is as consistent as possible. Using different modifier weapons would skew the results considerably making the results useless. Same with a lot of captain abilities. Because their total active time, (as a percentage of total run length), is highly affected by run length, which is highly affected by total group dps, which in PUG's is highly variable, they'd skew the results considerably.
For tests like this making as many factors as possible identical between tests is the ideal and the only cheap way was really cruddy gear.
Ughhh "most recent post" skipped one.
Hadnt realized prices had changed that much I got mine when they were 1 million. For the power bonus you can always switch to the cheaper maco shield. Granted it only works when being shot at but its the same power as Leech effectively.
You say 165 power but what if one of the beams is the experimental beam that drains 0 power. What if you add 1 torp like the Rom set torp into the mix? Thats two less weapons draining power. So only 145power needed to overcap, would that change anything?
As for Omega I thought it proced a lot with 7 beams and FaW 3 but its not a combo I use myself much so I could be mistaken.
Was your test with DBB or beam arrays? Because I agree cannons are better than beam arrays.
The area I am not convinced about is DBB.
MACO is an option but that depends on weather you want another set's bonuses, it's also as you say highly dependent on getting shot at. I do tend to get shot a fair bit in most of my builds. But that doesn't mean i'm always taking enough damage for the power to max out quickly. In fact the borg STF's are a great example of places where you often won't be getting shot at all that much for long phases.
Omega is a 2.5% proc chance of a 0 duration +10 power, (so it basically restores some of the drained power), and a 3 second +500 drain resist rating buff, (equal to 71%). The problem is it's a short duration and the same proc chance as weapon procs, which aren't very often.
I'm using beam array's DBB's have always been worse than arrays as a rule since the lost DPS from aft mounts more than offsets the extra DPS from the DBB's in the front.
Regarding other weapons fits:
First the tests where actually done with 7 beam array's so adding in the rom zero drain would only have an effect on an escort.
Second the test i mentioned discovered some things about power that seem to have been forgotten, to wit:
1. The power display panel is bugged, it doesn't show drain properly at all, particularly with over-capping. So just because the panel shows no power drain at a specific overcap doesn't mean none's happening.
2. When you fire weapons while overcapped it does not drain power from the overcap. Each weapon takes it's power from the main pool, then power in the overcap bleeds into your normal power pool refilling it. The rate of transfer seemed to be dependent on the amount of overcap, the amount below your setting (including bonuses), you are, and your innate power transfer rate.
Point 2 is why beams benefit from over-capping more than cannons. Cannons see much more gradual rises and falls in their power levels which means over-capping doesn't bleed power back as effectively. What it also means is that just because your weapons don't drain as much doesn't mean you need less overcap. Lower drain means slower bleedback which will likely offset the lower DPS loss from drain due to lower drain in the first place.
Its scary how stupid many people are in this game. They see a number on a tooltip and think they are getting that much damage on target. None of you noobs are firing your cannons at point blank range, and none of you are keeping your targets in the front 45deg.
Then you idiots get on here bragging about how IF you have a GW you always have all your targets in sight LOL. Morons. In over 1000 ESTFS I have seen perhaps 30 impressive DHC pilots. I am damn sure none of you are among them.
Its scary how stupid many people are in this game. They see a number on a tooltip and think they are getting that much damage on target. None of you noobs are firing your cannons at point blank range, and none of you are keeping your targets in the front 45deg.
Then you idiots get on here bragging about how IF you have a GW you always have all your targets in sight LOL. Morons. In over 1000 ESTFS I have seen perhaps 30 impressive DHC pilots. I am damn sure none of you are among them.
Unless you do 40k dps in a cannon boat or are Mal/porchsong. Get out the thread. You don't know who your talking to.
I'm using beam array's DBB's have always been worse than arrays as a rule since the lost DPS from aft mounts more than offsets the extra DPS from the DBB's in the front.
Even with x2, 360 rear beams shooting forward? I like the Avenger with 5 DBB with x2 rear beams all shooting forward.
People claiming that DHCs are great but completely and utterly unable to produce a single Combat Log with 12k+ damage, while beam boats are linking hundreds of runs over 30K damage.
You responded to my post. Look upward 5 entries. I do find it strange that you told me I don't know what I am talking about when you claim beam arrays are superior in most of your posts, which I agree with. Most people posting here do not own a damage meter.
Can't help mouthing off on the majority of people posting on this thread. I have not ESTFed that much recently, but very very few people have outperformed beam arrays with cannons in the 1000+ Infected Elites I have parsed. So had to call BS on all the DHC bragging here.
You are one of the few people posting here that would agree with me.
Karfi build for me is DBB fore 2 torpedos fore beam array aft KCB 360 AP and a beam array. ye, 3 arrays and the KCB on a broadside is pretty weak, but it's a CARRIER you should not be driving i and FAWing you send in the frigates pets, and lob TS of grav and transphasics. Rom hyper too if there isn't a lot of AOE spam.
Comments
Actually faw causes your beams to only hit 1 extra target. Csv hits 2 extra.Csv lasts an additional 5 seconds over bfaw. Bfaw boosts damage by 42% and cannon scatter volley is only 25%
But the extra target and higher uptime will destroy beams. As beams normally destroys cannons in every other scenario.
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
I think one as an aside.. or as with one of my two battle cruisers one runs cannons and dual beams.. the other has only one dual beam and no cannons.. all beam arrays.
it's just preference...
My plan is 3 romplas DBBs and the experimental beam array in the front, and 3 beams and the KCB in the back.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
DBB's also have a wider firing arc. I have a cruiser that runs an AP build. It's a beam boat with a decent turning rate for a cruiser. It's very effective with 2 beam arrays and 2 DBB's fore and 2 arrays, the 360 array and the KCB aft. Fore that gives me 6 weapons firing with the two DBB's for extra punch. Broadside I get 6 weapons firing and aft 4 weapons firing. Usually by the time I may be turning away from the target on an attack run I've stripped their shields down enough that that KCB is doing some damage. Overall I like this build. It's a real "all rounder"
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
@pottsey5g: Apologies for utterly missing your post on power overcapping. Sorry. Must have been half asleep or something
My main issue with your post is two fold.
1. Plasmonic leech unless your KDF side and have a specific ship, ( i admit i do), is very expensive and thus difficult to acquire, and it's only going to become more so as time goes on.
2. The Omega set bonus is a very low proc chance with a fairly short duration. Based on what i remember of my buff bar, (I admit i can't watch it too closely during combat), and how often weapon procs, (which are the same chance), go off i'd argue this is likely to be a low uptime buff. That cuts you down to just 135 without wrap core and 145 ish with one. As per the test results i've linked a couple of times now to counteract the damage difference between beams and cannons you need to get 165ish weapons power, (and thats with a +200% power transfer rate buff which does effect power bleedback from the overflow).
As for CSV. You have to remember, as long as you have 3 targets it's effectively a 3.6 times damage multiplier for CSV 2 vs FAW3's 1.4 multiplier. You can take a massive hit in damage from range and have a beam boat with significantly higher base DPS before abilities and it will still demolish them in DPS terms because that multiplier is so huge.
@dahminus: Still running tests as the Beam test hasd a low DPS supporting team compared to my cannon run but so far it's 3600 vs 4800 in favor of cannons. Patrol Escort for reference. I'll post some build screenshots whe i'm more sure of the results.
What are you doing for the test? Auto fire? Just bfaw/csv from 125?
Those number see redicously low
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
move your ship to a side, faw/a2b/eptw/cruiser weapons power/passive rep trait space weapons crit, shield pene and damage. doff marion and use dem and other doffs if you can to reduce any issues and maximize attack power. 8 beams firing from a side and the extra tactical advance is even if your enemy is behind or fore, you still 4 beams and since beam arcs are at? what 270 degree? that gives greater range and mobility. dual beams fire fore and not as powerful.
its a no brainer.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
I needed to be able to acquire identical mod stuff super cheap, (No reps fully ground out and not enough Dil/Fleet Cred for fleet gear due to my long break), so i went with vendor bought common quality MK IX Disruptor's. The tac consoles, (My Chimera is a Phaser ship but fed vendors don't sell cannons, dummies), where equally cheapskate MK X commons. Besides i was still pulling middle DPS in both runs so far, (total teamwide was only 21K and 27K respectively). I was using skills but consciously avoided captain DPS boosting abilities as how often and effectively you can use them is very dependent on the rest of the team so they could skew the results. I stuck with BOFF stuff.
I would like to note that a beamscort feels surprisingly fun though, i enjoyed it a LOT, certainly going to build one either way. Very distinct from a beam cruiser.
Hadnt realized prices had changed that much I got mine when they were 1 million. For the power bonus you can always switch to the cheaper maco shield. Granted it only works when being shot at but its the same power as Leech effectively.
You say 165 power but what if one of the beams is the experimental beam that drains 0 power. What if you add 1 torp like the Rom set torp into the mix? Thats two less weapons draining power. So only 145power needed to overcap, would that change anything?
As for Omega I thought it proced a lot with 7 beams and FaW 3 but its not a combo I use myself much so I could be mistaken.
Was your test with DBB or beam arrays? Because I agree cannons are better than beam arrays.
The area I am not convinced about is DBB.
What if it told you 27k dps is the average dps for a beam user that knows what he's doing?
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
I have a noob question. When people use DPS numbers like 27k, are they saying that they're doing 27k damage per second or 27k total damage? I'm just curious cause 27k damage per second sounds like alot of damage. But 27k total damage makes for sense. I play alot of MMOs that are just ground games and I'm not used to such high numbers.
Dps=damage per second
It's all relative to the game your playing.
What if I told you the best dpser in the game has done 81k dps?
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
First, thank you, that's what I thought, just making sure. Secondly ZOINKS!!!
I'd ask how that relevant to the testing i'm doing. The point here is to test the relative performance of beams vs cannons on an escort build. The percentage difference between the two numbers is what matters not the magnitude of each number. But it's important the test data is as consistent as possible. Using different modifier weapons would skew the results considerably making the results useless. Same with a lot of captain abilities. Because their total active time, (as a percentage of total run length), is highly affected by run length, which is highly affected by total group dps, which in PUG's is highly variable, they'd skew the results considerably.
For tests like this making as many factors as possible identical between tests is the ideal and the only cheap way was really cruddy gear.
Ughhh "most recent post" skipped one.
MACO is an option but that depends on weather you want another set's bonuses, it's also as you say highly dependent on getting shot at. I do tend to get shot a fair bit in most of my builds. But that doesn't mean i'm always taking enough damage for the power to max out quickly. In fact the borg STF's are a great example of places where you often won't be getting shot at all that much for long phases.
Omega is a 2.5% proc chance of a 0 duration +10 power, (so it basically restores some of the drained power), and a 3 second +500 drain resist rating buff, (equal to 71%). The problem is it's a short duration and the same proc chance as weapon procs, which aren't very often.
I'm using beam array's DBB's have always been worse than arrays as a rule since the lost DPS from aft mounts more than offsets the extra DPS from the DBB's in the front.
Regarding other weapons fits:
First the tests where actually done with 7 beam array's so adding in the rom zero drain would only have an effect on an escort.
Second the test i mentioned discovered some things about power that seem to have been forgotten, to wit:
1. The power display panel is bugged, it doesn't show drain properly at all, particularly with over-capping. So just because the panel shows no power drain at a specific overcap doesn't mean none's happening.
2. When you fire weapons while overcapped it does not drain power from the overcap. Each weapon takes it's power from the main pool, then power in the overcap bleeds into your normal power pool refilling it. The rate of transfer seemed to be dependent on the amount of overcap, the amount below your setting (including bonuses), you are, and your innate power transfer rate.
Point 2 is why beams benefit from over-capping more than cannons. Cannons see much more gradual rises and falls in their power levels which means over-capping doesn't bleed power back as effectively. What it also means is that just because your weapons don't drain as much doesn't mean you need less overcap. Lower drain means slower bleedback which will likely offset the lower DPS loss from drain due to lower drain in the first place.
Then you idiots get on here bragging about how IF you have a GW you always have all your targets in sight LOL. Morons. In over 1000 ESTFS I have seen perhaps 30 impressive DHC pilots. I am damn sure none of you are among them.
Unless you do 40k dps in a cannon boat or are Mal/porchsong. Get out the thread. You don't know who your talking to.
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
Hilarious. let me see one of these mythical combat logs of yours.
Easy mister necro...what's the beef?
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
You responded to my post. Look upward 5 entries. I do find it strange that you told me I don't know what I am talking about when you claim beam arrays are superior in most of your posts, which I agree with. Most people posting here do not own a damage meter.
Yep, my bad...saw the 2 month reply difference and assumed a troll.
You know, your comment did make me feel like I should download a parser, parse a run, put it in a dropbox, wait for a reply that may or may not come.
But honestly...i don't give a flip. You can take my word for it and let it be or just think I'm just another tool that thinks he's got **** down.
Your choice bro...
I saw your edit...i just been super defensive lately...took your "doubt anyone in thread can do respectable numbers," personally.
Sorry man, been on the defensive really hard lately and I have no idea why...
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
You are one of the few people posting here that would agree with me.
But cannons can still pull respective numbers.
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree