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PVE will never allow for PvP to be "balanced"
naz4
Member Posts: 1,373 Arc User
As the title says.
The power creep required to maintain the Kirk feeling for future kirkees to play this game will never allow PvP to be meaningful.
The reaction time of the devs to major issues in the game is months rather than days / weeks to fix things which sadly leads to more people leaving. They remain in game long enough to become the norm which is sad.
Sad brutal truth....
The power creep required to maintain the Kirk feeling for future kirkees to play this game will never allow PvP to be meaningful.
The reaction time of the devs to major issues in the game is months rather than days / weeks to fix things which sadly leads to more people leaving. They remain in game long enough to become the norm which is sad.
Sad brutal truth....
Post edited by naz4 on
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And well...folks would still point out bugs/exploits/broken mechanics/OPness/etc...cause almost every single nerf in the game has been about PvE anyway...not PvP.
But hey, at least with prefabs - there would be a substantial drop in certain complaints out there.
Well, maybe not - lol - we've all seen how Cryptic puts together BOFF layouts on event ships. Need more CRF for my boat without any cannons! :P
at least with season 9, we don't have a lockbox, rep, AND holding added all at once, that was brutal. no, just 2 out of 3 this time.
True so true.
R.I.P
Except, that such a change would likely crash the game economy. To actually fight at your full potential in PvP you have to have a quite expensive setup. Thus you either have to farm a lot or spend real-world currency to exchange it (which is the best part in star trek onlines economy imho, since nearly every form of relevant currency is interchangable) for something you want, thus dictating prices. Especially for prestige items like the bug-ship or ACCx3 weaponry.
PvP mostly dictates the prices here and makes it easier for people that spend real money to aquire certain items a lot faster. Take away the need of direct competition that PvP provides and certain items become much less atractive. Of course, this wouldn't be a problem if your suggested change would have been implemented form the start, but now ... ?
Simply put...there aren't enough folks that PvP for it really to affect the economy in that sense, imho. There's far more folks trying to run ISE in under a minute than there are hitting up PvP.
The prices of certain items doesn't reflect that though. Don't underestimate the PvP playerbase. Even people who just "pretend" to play PvP have some drive to aquire the best of the best.
Azure Nebula Rescue: 3 Queued/0 Playing
Crystalline Catastrophe: 0 Queued/15 Playing
Crystalline Catastrophe Elite: 0 Queued/29 Playing
Federation Minefield: 0 Queued/0 Playing
Hive Onslaught: 0 Queued/5 Playing
Hive Onslaught Elite: 0 Queued/0 Playing
Infected The Conduit: 1 Queued/5 Playing
Infected The Conduit Elite: 1 Queued/25 Playing
Khitomer Vortex: 2 Queued/0 Playing
Khitomer Vortex Elite: 4 Queued/30 Playing
Klingon Fleet Alert: 0 Queued/5 Playing
Klingon Starbase Blockade: 0 Queued/0 Playing
No Win Scenario: 0 Queued/0 Playing
Starbase Fleet Defense: 1 Queued/0 Playing
Storming the Spire: 1 Queued/0 Playing
Storming the Spire Elite: 4 Queued/5 Playing
The Breach: 3 Queued/0 Playing
The Breach Elite: 2 Queued/5 Playing
The Cure Found: 2 Queued/0 Playing
The Cure Elite: 1 Queued/5 Playing
The Vault Ensnared: 0 Queued/0 Playing
Vault Shuttle Event: 1 Queued
FvK CnH: 0/min 16
KvK CnH: 0/min 16
FvK Arena: 3/min 8
KvK Arena: 0/min 10
RvB Smallcraft: 0/min 10
A handful of folks wanting to acquire EC gear is still just a handful of folks wanting to acquire EC gear compared to busloads of folks wanting to acquire EC gear.
So? the divide between rich and poor, good and bad players is much larger in PvE. How much capital do you think PvP players have already invested into the game vs. every PvE player out there. We are not talking about everyone being on equal terms here.
To be honest, I even wonder how they can tolerate the state of PvE in their game.
If your power creep allows players to demolish (1 to 3 minutes) content that was intended to take 10 to 15 minutes, and easily farm dilithium (which is money, to Cryptic) do you really leave that level of power creep unchecked for months, and months on end?
That's concerning.
We can speculate why that is, it might be a small number of outlier players.
It might be they are afraid to nerf it, and lose players who enjoy the easiest playstyle (most of this game's player base) for the highest possible rewards. (farmville)
PvE's "content value" is completely degenerate at this point, due to the powercreep/MUDflation in the system - but we still see changes made to make playing easier (removal of cooldowns on team abilities).
Im not so sure its a small number of people anymore. Just taking our fleet as an example, with well over 100 active players, all of which regularly do over 5k DPS and about 20 or so that break 10k and even 20-30k... it would seem to me that its become much more widespread than say the DPS channels.
Even pugging it you can see ESTF runs take less than 5 minutes on a regular basis with just one 20k dps guy in it.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
You'd know better than I would, I haven't done an ESTF in 2 or 3 months - I was being a bit conservative.
Not to sound unsympathetic, but the reason that the PvP base is so small right now is because most of us figured this out and left.
At this point, if you're sticking around, it's because you are enjoying the game as it is today. If you're not enjoying it, and are sticking around out of some deluded hope, well.... "balance" certainly isn't to blame for that.
Once you take a step back and realize what the situation really is, it's easy not to step back into it. Even then, I'll admit, people like me creep on the forums out of hope that a miracle will happen (even though we're 99% sure it won't).
Anyways, I'm sure I'll chime back in the next time you post this exact sentiment in a different form, probably 4-6 months from now.
Lag Industries STO/TOR Guild
I can only say that this Game, what we have loved everybody thus in start, has strongly decreased.
Now the whole years We already wait for improvements in the PvP, till present, unfortunately, nothing has still happened and will not probably also happen.
They follow are ofcourse watch, the PvP Comunity will remain smaller. Arenas empty..
and hardly Premades against one could play are inactive.
Now with Season 9 are changed Arenas like you know.
This will end as successfully as the shuttle arena which is always full like you can see.
Honestly, this is not simply what would have to happen around the PvP to save.
Thanks Criptc for it.
Greetings
Btw. Hello Naz.
*** R.I.P. ***
The games PvE is majorly screwed, even more so then PvP which is funny. No other MMO I have ever played from any developer (even ones I thought where horrid at the time) would leave such game breaking stuff in game for months on end. The idea of an emergency patch is foreign to Cryptic. Even when they admit something is broken... its always "it will make its way into the next weekly patch"... and when it doesn't... if they bother commenting its always well perhaps the next one it must not have made the build. From what I understand Cryptic is a small company to get answers that imply left hand doesn't know what right hand is doing seems disingenuous. how can you not know what the guy in the next cubical is doing. (Stand the F up literally and ask him lol) I guess as long as you design every new map to work on a count down timer and always take 10-15 min no matter how boring it gets when your players slap all the NPCS around your golden.
Perhaps I have been spoiled by other games that patch bug fix and exploit spackle into there game on the fly... they even drop patches outside of "patch" days when they are required.
The only take away is that Cryptic is a very poorly run developer.
I do 100% agree with dont as well... 99% of the junk they release for Sale is obviously geared toward PvP. The power creep that effects PvE is 99% freely acquired junk that are all pretty much obviously broken/bad game design/or pure exploit. Its odd that I can build a "free" pve ship that can smash all there content... and the stuff that is setup to make them extra $ of me does nothing but cost me PvE effectiveness, most of the "p2w" consoles are just a waste of a console slot in PvE.
It is pretty sad in general. I love trek and that is pretty much the only thing that has kept me around as long as I have been here. I'm also likely to still log in now and then and keep at least 1-2 toons some what current. I guess I'm a sucker for thinking something at Cryptic will change some day. I am not one to say Cryptic is in trouble if a good Sci fi MMO comes out... been there and done that. I really do hope though that one of the real proven mmo developers does something other then fantasy at some point. lol Until then I guess I'll play there fantasy stuffz at least the games are well made and supported.
This is true. Especially after the release of spire consoles, the number of players who can reach, and then even surpass 10k DPS has increased dramatically. Players are starting to get a little smarter too, figuring out the power of stacked APBs on a target, and this, combined with increased damage output due to reputation and consoles, without a counter increase in strength on the NPCs part, is making Elite STFs about as difficult as normals.
I have also seen a huge increase in the number of players who are new to the ESTFs actually asking the veterans what works and what doesn't. It's a little odd, since I am used to Kirks who have ineffective builds and blame everyone else.
However, there are still a large number of moron PvE kirks who still play the game. I saw a frakton of them during the MUI event. Yes guys, let's attack an entire fleet of Typhoons in my escort of doomness and expect to win! OMFG I DIED!!! Q.Q npcsOPplznerfkthxbai!.
*Tank Odyssey looks on and wonders why the hell the morons weren't closing the rifts while he was busy doing his job and tanking...*
Yes, you can build and fly a "free" boat in PvE to crush the content. There are many folks that can. Thing is...what Cryptic's been doing for the past couple of years is to build the playerbase with folks that could have everything and will still have an issue.
There are folks complaining that they're going to suffer in gameplay because they no longer have access to what were basically minimal buffs from the Rep Passives. There are folks looking for more and more powercreep - so they can do things other folks take for granted.
This is an extremely casual game. The playerbase is...I mean...c'mon, you've seen the threads out there. Cryptic's tried to attract Star Trek fans that may have never played a single video game in their lives. That's what's out there...that's why there's been all the powercreep without the increase in content difficulty - Hell, the content's actually been nerfed.
As for the "p2w" consoles...how old are the consoles that you're talking about compared to what they've dropped out in the past year or so?
The newer stuff isn't any better.
Blackhole console... very useful in PvE ?
Hirogen reset console... ok its not pointless in PvE Still pretty much a PvP console.
How about Traits.
Helmsman isn't that old... does it really seem needed at all in PvE ?
How about the hirogen Torpedo trait... any point of that one in PvE ?
If we are talking sets and gear... the new rep stuff again is much more geared toward PvP. Proton Barage ? Yes I have always been very concerned my gear skills don't bypass armour and strip buffs. Of course that isn't aimed at PvE. Where scis have felt subnuke is mostly pointless. For PvE everyone is still running the good old borg set so they don't have to worry about running any heals at all in there builds.
Cryptic has been pretty consistent as I see it ... and it isn't planned PvP hate or something. Its purely incompetent game development.
(I know I am pulling some numbers out of the air here... its my opinion)
Likely 50-75% of the "bonus" items they sell are bought by people thinking about how it works in PvP. Yet Cryptic insists that PvP isn't important to them $ wise. This is clearly not the case or they would stop worrying themselves with creating newer and better PvP breaking items / skills / doffs and traits. There for I find them to be 2 faced and flat out liers... if they honestly believed that they would stop creating new items that are clearly only useful (or at least mainly) in PvP.
You can't tell me they are really stupid enough to think that boxes featuring things like Inspired leader / Helmsman and elachi weapons get opened 10x more often because people want the Elachi escort for PvE. lol They simply can not be that stupid... so there for they are bold face flat out disingenuous inept game developers.
Subspace Poo...NPCs don't move out of it - players do. I saw more Dark Poo during the Mirror Event than I've seen this year in PvP.
Reset, eh? Given everything that prevents its use that's spammed by players compared to the all but complete lack of that by NPCs...given that players aren't going to pop the Lure anywhere near as often as NPCs...etc, etc, etc.
Helmsman...there's a lot of folks out there in PvEland running boats that turn like a brick in molasses.
Intimidating Strikes - given players will have points in Sensors, the Confuse lockout with AMS/Scramble...that duration...vs say using it with a GW and Spread in PvE to get the wee buggers shooting at each other at the same time without having to drop out a Scramble...?
C'mon, those were easy...
I think folks are seriously overestimating the competence of the majority of the PvE crowd and seriously underestimating the competence of the majority of the PvP crowd...to think that things are for PvP rather than PvE.
Or that elachi weapon packs are worth almost as much as a key because PvE players find value in them.
I am not saying that most stuff has no value in PvE... I am saying that the value isn't exactly great. I do a good amount of PvE myself... Rarely if ever do I see a PvE player zooming around with evasive more then once per round if then. More often I see people slowly making there way from one borg/voth to the next nice and slow like. I doubt many of them even realize they have an evasive skill.
I just don't see it... its clear over the last 4 years the stuff that gets jacked up on the exchange is obviously due to PvP. I'm sorry but I didn't sell mulitple sub nuke doffs for 200mil ec when they came out because someone wanted to nuke that evil gate. Those clearly had almost zero use in PvE.
That's kind of ignoring the overall matter of supply and demand. If 10 folks want something and there's only 2-3 of them, as long as folks set the precedence for paying that much - they'll go for that much.
In talking about players moving slowly - speed is extremely important to the DPS folks...it's literally a dance against time. Everybody's got to be in their spot at the right time to do their bit or it's just not getting done. So being able to turn better and EM more often...is helpful.
It's just a case of saying to hit up the various build sections of the forums:
Builds, Powers, and Game Mechanics
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/forumdisplay.php?f=219
Federation Shipyards
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/forumdisplay.php?f=218
Klingon Fleetyards
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/forumdisplay.php?f=217
Romulan Flotilla
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/forumdisplay.php?f=381
Yep, there's the cheap seats...but there's also the box seats.
It's just a case of it being my opinion that things are so problematic in PvP...because it's not even a thought as the stuff is being designed to add stuff for the PvE folks. Does that lead to certain things being epic /facepalms over in PvP and stuff that folks feel they need? No doubt...but it's still stuff that was designed for PvE and there are a Hell of a lot more PvE folks than there are PvP folks - more PvE only folks than PvP/PvE folks.
As for manipulating the market in general...it's pretty easy. Start a few threads or post in a few threads complaining something is OP...whether it is or not...watch the price go up. :P
well, they redid ground combat and added shooter mode, redid first city, redid the stfs, redid rep passives, redid kits, and now ESD is redone. maybe its time to redo space combat, in its entirety. build it with things like doffs and sets and universal consoles in mind, instead of just hacking them into a system that was built never imagining any of that. build it with REAL give and take, sort of like they did with the rep passives. balance all the doffs so there's not tech doffs a tier above everything else, and balance skills at multiple levels with all the doffs in mind from the start.
hopefully the state of pve sort of forces this to happen
Could be interesting. Could be a complete cluster...thingy.
very much yes. Just check out prices for datachips history of new romulus, or very rare khellid pets
these things have no value other then 10 accoloade points. The pets sell for the same price as lockbox ships, so do lots of other cosmetic items.
People might want a full set of elachi weapons to go with their moonbosh, just because. It's not all about the stats.
I'm sure for every pvp'er-to-be buying certain doffs, others pay the price to never slot them, just because they want binaries on their crew, or insects...
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Actually yes, i think they do.
I've seen plenty of people in the past buying MK XII [acc]x3 gear, back in the days where the items were usually 75-150M ec.
Those were all PVE'ers, Acc was so useless back in the days in PVE, and yet they did buy stuff like this. It was just for comparing Epeens when they were RPing i believe, look I got special Acc x3 weps theya re super rare!!
LOL
Dont underestimate the power of the Kirks.
You guys have a point there are plenty of stupid people everywhere.
Still I know when I sell stuff that has a PvP bent 50/50 I recognize the name buying it. Granted sometimes its just Jedi marking something up... still I know plenty of that stuff is getting used. If that many of my PvP super boosting traits, and PvP flavored weapons are going to people I know are PvPers I think I am safe in assuming a good amount of the super boost junk is going to either Pure PvPers or at least people considering it for use in PvP.
I have tried to help plenty of fresh players here and there... and its funny how often they tell me ya I wanted to try PvP so I grabbed X or Y cause I heard its OP in PvP.
All the TRIBBLE they put into STO influences PvP far more that PvE, the OP is wrong, Cryptic doesn't care about balance in PvE or PvP, they just care about cash.