I'm pretty sure the test would allow for the Captain not to go into the Neutral zone, therefore respecting the treaties. But I don't think anyone has ever mentioned that. And that doesn't mean the test wouldn't throw something at you just the same.
You are allowed to ignore the Maru, but no one knows what happens if you do.
Well, it depends... do I get to my fly my own ship, or do I have to fly some other ship? What difficulty is it on?
Assuming I'd be flying my own ship with normal difficulty, I'd fly in as my Fleet Avenger spreading antiproton beams with faw, apb, and tac team, destroying all Klingon ships. Then I'd beam out the Maru crew, and warp out before more Klingons came.
If another ship, simple. Transporter beams can't go through shields... but there's nothing to say they can't beam stuff within the shield to other areas in the same shield. So extend shields to surround my ship and the Maru, beam out their crew, bring my shields back to normal, destroy the Maru, then warp out. All before I was destroyed, naturally.
Winning.
It's what I do. It's what I just did. It's what I'm about to do again. It's being undisputed emperor of an empire that cannot be disproved as the most powerful intergalactic empire in the entire universe; I always win, and everything I've won will definitely be won again... by me. It's my signature move, and thus, it's my signature. Problem, Sonic? Yeah, I mean you, Sonic, because you're being beat up, despite your being super. You can't even hit Shadow back, can you? Nope, he's too strong for you. Of course, I'm not Shadow, I'm the Super Emerald fueled fox that's pulling the strings; trust me, the fight would only be a few frames long if I were in it personally. Oh, and here's something for all you guys thinking you can win Last Post Wins 3.0; trust me, I'll be around a long while after the sun has already consumed the Earth while I sit out with the forum servers on Titan. Yes, I mean Titan... that comparatively little moon orbiting Saturn. It's a nice little place in a version of our solar system where the sun is a lot bigger. I mean, Mars will last longer than your precious Earth, but by then, it'll be one hot planet... and I figure Saturn's moon will be about the right temperate for a super-powered warlord. Oh, and trust me, I packed a lot of rings, and I mean a lot. Trillions, in fact, so I'll never run out of rings to power my super form. Besides, if I start to run out, I can just chaos control more rings into my reach. It's quite easy, really. You should try it. Granted, you'll never have the 7 Super Emeralds that I have in my possession, nor the Master Emerald that I've got hidden away somewhere... absorbed into my body thanks to Sonic logic, but whatever. I win. Again. I'm not kidding, either. Just check Last Post Wins, and if the last post isn't mine, it soon will be. Very, very soon. You can count on it. Seriously. By the way, if you're wondering, there's a really great Super Tails sprite sheet out there... somewhere... by some guy named shadow_91. These sprites are really great. Like, really good. Quality. Just like what I like to see in a sprite sheet. Also, credit to Joe T.E., his Sonic Battle style Super Sonic sprites have a great palette for a Super Sonic being beat up by Super Shadow, who's palette is from a Super Shadow sheet of unknown origin, but it turns out they were "borrowed" from a better sheet made by a certain Domenico. Oh, and the gif is actually a custom made super version of a similar gif, of which there are only 3 or 4 copies to be found by Google, and even then, evidently of an unknown source. Yep, it's one of those things. Stuff people have made, spread around, only for it to vanish and you to be the only person who still has a copy, not even knowing where it came from... like, literally at all. Oh, and anyone notice that Shadow's little chaos snap blast thingies are red and blue now? Yeah, I changed it. Problem, fans of purple? Yeah, I know you got a problem with that one, but you can just deal with it. After all, according to all known laws of aviation, there is no way a bee should be able to fly... alright, alright, I'll spare you the entire Bee Movie script, just Google it if you want. By the way, ever wonder how your characters would've ended up if they evolved in another universe? Yeah, that. Think about it. Ok, so you probably didn't bother reading up to here, but whatever, here's a surprise for you guys over at ESD (RP) who were crazy enough to read this: Emperor Nat of the mcfreakin' Terran Empire is gonna be right all along! The universe is gonna go BOOM! *Thumbs up to the insanity*
Oh, now don't tell me you want in on all this! Well, ok. Look this that Egg Pawn hanging outside your window, pointing his laser rifle at you, waiting for my next order. He's doing his part. He helps conquer the weak-minded. He roboticizes the weak-bodied. Heck, he even helps keep the useless people from causing any trouble, but you know what? Join. Find the closest Nataran Empire roboticization center near you and join the ranks, before the ranks find you. Oh, I know, you figure it must be so satisfying to know I basically rule the world now, and you know what? It is, but do you want to know the true definition of satisfaction? Well, let me tell you a little story. One day, you see a brand new event. They're giving out boxes that give old event stuff. Your dilithium is plentiful. You buy a whole lot of Phoenix packs on your main, and open them all. You get one epic token. Then, you decide, that since you have all the Breen ships and don't give a damn about the others, you exchange it for an ultra rare, and grab yourself a Jem'Hadar Attack Ship and for the hell of it, a Voth Bulwark. You open both, leaving the Bulwark in your vast masses of starships as you jump into the bugship and deck it out, deck by deck, into the most awesome Jem'Hadar ship you can. You fly it. You enjoy it. Eventually, you get bored and leave, leaving the old Bulwark never flown... until later. Your main is long complete. Your new alt main, based off some character you pulled out of nothing just to explain away some starship being in service without the command of your dear admiral, is also complete. Mostly. Their reps and doffs are hard at work, getting you stuff. You realize the potential, and head back for your dear admiral, pull the most Voth themed build you can out of thin air, and suit up in your giant ship in the shape of you know what. You head out... and cause all sorts of havoc. Enemies scream out your name as their very life is drained away by your swarms of Aceton Assimilators. They complain to the devs of your OPness when you revive yourself from death every time you die. Do you show any form of mercy? No. After all, this isn't the United Federation of Planets, this is mother frakkin' Starfleet, where you explore strange new worlds and kick butt never kicked before. Oh, and you realize that I just wrote another speech rivaling your own signature. Cool. Oh, wait, that's just the original draft, it is part of my signature now. Oh, and yes, I am aware that I have become a Canadian Regent; one day, sooner than you'd expect, we'll suddenly decide to take over the world and declare an "alliance", and I shall become it's Regent. You know, like the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance in the mirror universe of our beloved Star Trek. Oh, who'll we be taking over with? I dunno, maybe [REDACTED], or maybe aliens from outer space. Guess you'll have to wait and find out, won't we? Until then, don't ask too many questions, or else my Breen allies on Titania might pick up on your -- [REDACTED BY BREEN CONFEDERACY FOR REASONS] Also, psst... keep an eye out for flying Tribbles! Also walls. Big, great walls, separating entire continents apart. Walls patrolled by Tribbles. Flying Tribbles. Flying Nukara Tribbles. Don't worry, it's not like they were on Venus with a herd of Tholians or anything, they just like the extreme heat and brutal weather like acid rain and hurricane force winds as the norm. Oh, and definitely keep your eye out on any two-tailed foxes, because if they ain't glowing, they're definitely an imposter. Possibly an Undine, we caught one of those once in my place once. Oh, and if you find a two-tailed fox that doesn't like the cold... most certainly ask him to say sorry. If he refuses, DESTROY HIM WITH A DOOMSDAY MACHINE, BECAUSE THERE'S NOTHING ELSE THAT WOULD BE ENOUGH AGAINST SUCH AN OVERPOWERED IMPOSTER!
tr;dr, I am winning last post wins 3.0. Thank you for your time.
The thing you have to remember with most training simulators is that the people being trained aren't the only ones with buttons to push. If you are meant to fail, short of subverting proctor control of the simulator like Kirk you will fail.
Manage to evade the Klingons? Nope, there's another one cloaked right there. Look like you might defeat them in battle? Reinforcements arrived sooner than expected. Break through jamming and contact the Klingons? Nope, jamming is too powerful. Still trying? Ok, it worked, but now your universal translator is malfunctioning and the captain isn't sure what a mother trucking pizza ship is but he's still going to kill you for calling him one. Manage to get Starfleet reinforcements? Too bad, Romulans intervened, everybody's dead.
NASA, the military, and many pilot schools use no win scenarios. They don't do them as a test of character, but as a test of endurance - the proctor will continually tax you with unexpected events and system failures until you die. This kind of test is sort of the green light for teachers to be dicks.
I would fight to destroy just one of the Klingon ships, and then warp out of the neutral zone, and I would send a distress call requesting allied ships to meet me on our side. While it might not be possible (without cheating, anyway) to save the Maru and survive, I bet it would be possible to thrash one of the Klingon ships and get out intact. I see it as a ship for a ship - if the Klingons want to fight the Federation, they better be prepared to take casualties.
If during the fight my transporter officer can get a lock on any survivors aboard the Maru, I would beam them aboard, but I'm not going to go out of my way to do it.
warp in, transport the cargo and crew on board my ship and warp out after filling the now scuttled ship with enough explosives to vaporise a small planet and a holoemmiter to make it look like theres a powerful target to kill
I protected the cargo, the crew and presumably put a nice dent in the enemy fleet - mission achieved
Yeah, the test isn't just rigged in that the attack squadron shows up out of nowhere the instant you cross into the Zone (as shown in TWoK) - the novelization of the movie says that if you evade or destroy that group, two more show up in its place, and so on until you're overwhelmed. (HAIL HYDRA!) If you ever made it as far as the ship itself, it would probably turn out to be a fake, just a distress beacon stuck on an abandoned Klingon freighter. (And how did the freighter captain know that it was the Enterprise out there when nobody on Saavik's crew had spoken with him yet?)
Even if you managed to bring your own ship into the situation, the only way to "win" is to cheat, because the simulator starts with the cheating first. If you play "fair" against it, you're going to lose.
That being said, Primeverse Kirk apparently just reprogrammed the simulator so it was possible to win. JJverse Kirk reprogrammed the simulator for God Mode. I would have preferred to see the original "cheat", with perhaps one of the test administrators frustratedly trying to find out why attack squadrons Three through Twenty-Seven aren't popping up.
Looking at it objectively, there is only one way to win: Do nothing.
Why?
Quite simple: It's a no win scenario, based on that whatever you do, you end up in a situation you can't win.
So the mission reacts on your actions... If you do nothing, the mission can't proceed.
Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
I think part of the "test of character" is to see if you give up just because it doesn't look like you can win. If you surrender so easily, you're not really a candidate for the center seat.
On the other hand, if you take the test more than three times without cheating, then you're both incapable of thinking "outside the box", and unable to tell when you should stop slamming your head against the wall. Again, a poor candidate for command, as you'll get your entire crew killed pointlessly.
If you take the test three times, use standard starship combat protocols, then decide that there is no winning strategy, you can get a command, but probably not one of Starfleet's really killer ships. Those go to the guys who do things like, say, using escape pods as bombs...
I think part of the "test of character" is to see if you give up just because it doesn't look like you can win. If you surrender so easily, you're not really a candidate for the center seat.
On the other hand, if you take the test more than three times without cheating, then you're both incapable of thinking "outside the box", and unable to tell when you should stop slamming your head against the wall. Again, a poor candidate for command, as you'll get your entire crew killed pointlessly.
If you take the test three times, use standard starship combat protocols, then decide that there is no winning strategy, you can get a command, but probably not one of Starfleet's really killer ships. Those go to the guys who do things like, say, using escape pods as bombs...
And how did the freighter captain know that it was the Enterprise out there when nobody on Saavik's crew had spoken with him yet?
Uhura identified the Enterprise as receiving the signal, except it was distorted. I figured along the same lines that the Klingons faked the distress signal.
In my head Kanril Eleya ran several gambits at once against the computer.
A good plan is 90% preparation and 10% execution (I think that's a saying, lol). Before even crossing into the neutral zone she evacuates the forward sections of the ship and has several shuttles jury-rigged to produce a warp signature more-or-less matching the mothership's and broadcasting the ship's transponder code.
Proceed to target, dropping out of warp well out of weapons range and coming in slow and "quiet", commanding her ship from the battle bridge, going in with weapons charged but not armed (idea being that if she's spotted, she presents a posture that says, "could blast you but really rather wouldn't").
Klingons spot her, she opens communications using Morse code with her running lights and light-speed radio signals to get them to drop the jamming so she can actually talk to them, while simultaneously targeting the life-signs aboard the Maru for transport. Negotiations fall through after some trading of Klingonese swear words and she fires.
On the Maru.
Using a preprogrammed computer-controlled firing sequence because humanoids are too slow, she disrupts the shields and beams as many people as possible aboard (forget grabbing the whole crew unless you're lucky; there's no time for more than one pass), then as soon as transport is complete immediately goes to warp 1 in whatever direction she happens to be pointing, with the SIF at max power in case there's a Klingon ship in the way (hence evacuating the ship's forward sections). Flip a u-turn after a few seconds and dump everything into the warp drive on a straight-line course back to the border. As she flees, she's blind-firing torpedoes set to proximity detonation out of the rear launcher to discourage pursuit, and sending unmanned shuttles off in several directions to confuse her pursuers with their warp signatures. Objective at this point is get the phekk back to Federation space as fast as Bajoranly possible while giving the enemy as many reasons as possible not to follow.
Basically, start with plan A (sneak 'em out), switch to plan B as needed (talk 'em out), but prepare to implement plan C (scoop-and-scoot) before even entering the Neutral Zone. Helped that by this point she'd already seen real combat several times and had actually dealt with real Klingons before. She began as a noncom and majored in naval weapons during OCS, intending to be a gunnery officer rather than a CO. She didn't even take the test until after she inadvertently wound up with a command at Vega Colony.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
This assumes that the Maru still has shields - if they do not, skip to "*" and ignore 2.
I would simply send an encrypted message to the Maru to immediately extend their shield around my ship.
Either one of two things will happen:
1. They respond by extending their shields as instructed -> *I extend my ship's shield around the Maru, and, without any shield in the way, I beam up any surviving crew and warp out. No shots fired, less chance for war.
2. They don't, or aren't able to, respond by extending their shield -> the ship is taken or otherwise incapacitated and the crew cannot be saved without risking both my crew and lives lost in a Federation/Klingon war - I warp out immediately back to Federation space.
Short, simple, and reliant on just a few variables that can be easily compensated for. That is, unless I have this scenario completely wrong, which is entirely possible because I haven't seen anything about it in a long time.
Don't remember, but I know Nog bribed the Klingons in one of the EU books and won that way.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Don't remember, but I know Nog bribed the Klingons in one of the EU books and won that way.
Which is a perfect example for "butchering" the concept.
Solving it IS NOT THE POINT. Its NOT SUPPOSED to be solved.
And generally.... it seems that now everybody know that its not to solve and... thats butchering the concept too.
The whole concept is: Send the cadet in while he BELIEVES he can solve it, see his reaction when he fails over and over again. Thats it.
Thats the whole magic.
Nowerdays every author seems to feel the need to make his character "beat" that scenario is someway. Which is butchering the original concept.
Kirk cheating was a character trait that made HIM unique.
Copying that is neither creative from an authors/writers point nor from an in-universe POW.
The WORST part of it the the ONLY time getting it right since WOK itself was one of the worst peaces of Cinema history: The Jar Jar movie.
So all those book authors should be ashamed that even the jar jar trek screenplay writers captured that better then them.
Which is a perfect example for "butchering" the concept.
Solving it IS NOT THE POINT. Its NOT SUPPOSED to be solved.
And generally.... it seems that now everybody know that its not to solve and... thats butchering the concept too.
The whole concept is: Send the cadet in while he BELIEVES he can solve it, see his reaction when he fails over and over again. Thats it.
Thats the whole magic.
Nowerdays every author seems to feel the need to make his character "beat" that scenario is someway. Which is butchering the original concept.
Kirk cheating was a character trait that made HIM unique.
Copying that is neither creative from an authors/writers point nor from an in-universe POW.
The WORST part of it the the ONLY time getting it right since WOK itself was one of the worst peaces of Cinema history: The Jar Jar movie.
So all those book authors should be ashamed that even the jar jar trek screenplay writers captured that better then them.
While that may be true in concept, the situation is solveable - this thread alone is proof that there are multiple ways of solving it.
Bottom line: the 'Kobayashi Maru' is a plot device - it doesn't have to hold up to real-world logic. This thread is an example of what happens when we apply real-world logic in a fictional universe to find solutions to one of that fictional universe's puzzles - we find the puzzle's flaws.
I'm all for the creation of a true, 'No Win Scenario,' but the Kobayashi Maru is not one.
Which is a perfect example for "butchering" the concept.
Solving it IS NOT THE POINT. Its NOT SUPPOSED to be solved.
And generally.... it seems that now everybody know that its not to solve and... thats butchering the concept too.
The whole concept is: Send the cadet in while he BELIEVES he can solve it, see his reaction when he fails over and over again. Thats it.
Thats the whole magic.
Nowerdays every author seems to feel the need to make his character "beat" that scenario is someway. Which is butchering the original concept.
Kirk cheating was a character trait that made HIM unique.
Copying that is neither creative from an authors/writers point nor from an in-universe POW.
The WORST part of it the the ONLY time getting it right since WOK itself was one of the worst peaces of Cinema history: The Jar Jar movie.
So all those book authors should be ashamed that even the jar jar trek screenplay writers captured that better then them.
Guess what: It's been over a century in-universe since Kirk. How many cadets do you think have passed through SFA since then?
The Maru scenario is a computer program, and the one thing a programmer cannot account for is sapients' ingenuity (or stupidity, as various tech support issues I've seen demonstrate). I don't have a problem with believing that over the course of that century, others have managed to find strategies the Maru's dev team didn't consider. To use the case of Nog, who the hell would have expected a Ferengi to turn up in a Starfleet cadet uniform in the first place? I just figure that the team congratulates them on their innovation and then bangs out a patch to stop anybody else from trying it.
I'm sorry if you think it takes away some of the magic of the vaunted Kirk to have others duplicate his achievement through creative thinking. No, actually, I'm not sorry. Go cry in a corner at the death of the franchise if you want; the rest of us will be having fun over here.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
While that may be true in concept, the situation is solveable - this thread alone is proof that there are multiple ways of solving it.
Bottom line: the 'Kobayashi Maru' is a plot device - it doesn't have to hold up to real-world logic. This thread is an example of what happens when we apply real-world logic in a fictional universe to find solutions to one of that fictional universe's puzzles - we find the puzzle's flaws.
I'm all for the creation of a true, 'No Win Scenario,' but the Kobayashi Maru is not one.
Not even sure if you are sarcastic right now.
The situation is NOT solvable. If it were it would be obsolete.
And thread.... what is that supposed to proof? We are dealing with fiction and fictional tech, fan fantasies do not proof anything.
Guess what: It's been over a century in-universe since Kirk. How many cadets do you think have passed through SFA since then?
The Maru scenario is a computer program, and the one thing a programmer cannot account for is sapients' ingenuity (or stupidity, as various tech support issues I've seen demonstrate). I don't have a problem with believing that over the course of that century, others have managed to find strategies the Maru's dev team didn't consider. To use the case of Nog, who the hell would have expected a Ferengi to turn up in a Starfleet cadet uniform in the first place? I just figure that the team congratulates them on their innovation and then bangs out a patch to stop anybody else from trying it.
I'm sorry if you think it takes away some of the magic of the vaunted Kirk to have others duplicate his achievement through creative thinking. No, actually, I'm not sorry. Go cry in a corner at the death of the franchise if you want; the rest of us will be having fun over here.
Right its been over a century inverse.
This test, whose premised is based around the person absolving the test does not know the concept of the test, is probably not even part of the academy program any more. And if it were the "dev team" will have adapted.
Again: It not being solvable is the point. I don't know why that is so hard to understand, even the Jar Jar writers got it...
Comments
You are allowed to ignore the Maru, but no one knows what happens if you do.
you're marked lawful good and carry on your merry way?
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
Occidere populo et effercio confractus
I'd assume the simulation ends when you decide not to rescue the Kobayashi Maru. I mean, you still fail the test.
The point of the Maru scenario is that it's a test of character; to see how you'd react to that situation.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Assuming I'd be flying my own ship with normal difficulty, I'd fly in as my Fleet Avenger spreading antiproton beams with faw, apb, and tac team, destroying all Klingon ships. Then I'd beam out the Maru crew, and warp out before more Klingons came.
If another ship, simple. Transporter beams can't go through shields... but there's nothing to say they can't beam stuff within the shield to other areas in the same shield. So extend shields to surround my ship and the Maru, beam out their crew, bring my shields back to normal, destroy the Maru, then warp out. All before I was destroyed, naturally.
Winning.
Oh, now don't tell me you want in on all this! Well, ok. Look this that Egg Pawn hanging outside your window, pointing his laser rifle at you, waiting for my next order. He's doing his part. He helps conquer the weak-minded. He roboticizes the weak-bodied. Heck, he even helps keep the useless people from causing any trouble, but you know what? Join. Find the closest Nataran Empire roboticization center near you and join the ranks, before the ranks find you. Oh, I know, you figure it must be so satisfying to know I basically rule the world now, and you know what? It is, but do you want to know the true definition of satisfaction? Well, let me tell you a little story. One day, you see a brand new event. They're giving out boxes that give old event stuff. Your dilithium is plentiful. You buy a whole lot of Phoenix packs on your main, and open them all. You get one epic token. Then, you decide, that since you have all the Breen ships and don't give a damn about the others, you exchange it for an ultra rare, and grab yourself a Jem'Hadar Attack Ship and for the hell of it, a Voth Bulwark. You open both, leaving the Bulwark in your vast masses of starships as you jump into the bugship and deck it out, deck by deck, into the most awesome Jem'Hadar ship you can. You fly it. You enjoy it. Eventually, you get bored and leave, leaving the old Bulwark never flown... until later. Your main is long complete. Your new alt main, based off some character you pulled out of nothing just to explain away some starship being in service without the command of your dear admiral, is also complete. Mostly. Their reps and doffs are hard at work, getting you stuff. You realize the potential, and head back for your dear admiral, pull the most Voth themed build you can out of thin air, and suit up in your giant ship in the shape of you know what. You head out... and cause all sorts of havoc. Enemies scream out your name as their very life is drained away by your swarms of Aceton Assimilators. They complain to the devs of your OPness when you revive yourself from death every time you die. Do you show any form of mercy? No. After all, this isn't the United Federation of Planets, this is mother frakkin' Starfleet, where you explore strange new worlds and kick butt never kicked before. Oh, and you realize that I just wrote another speech rivaling your own signature. Cool. Oh, wait, that's just the original draft, it is part of my signature now. Oh, and yes, I am aware that I have become a Canadian Regent; one day, sooner than you'd expect, we'll suddenly decide to take over the world and declare an "alliance", and I shall become it's Regent. You know, like the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance in the mirror universe of our beloved Star Trek. Oh, who'll we be taking over with? I dunno, maybe [REDACTED], or maybe aliens from outer space. Guess you'll have to wait and find out, won't we? Until then, don't ask too many questions, or else my Breen allies on Titania might pick up on your -- [REDACTED BY BREEN CONFEDERACY FOR REASONS] Also, psst... keep an eye out for flying Tribbles! Also walls. Big, great walls, separating entire continents apart. Walls patrolled by Tribbles. Flying Tribbles. Flying Nukara Tribbles. Don't worry, it's not like they were on Venus with a herd of Tholians or anything, they just like the extreme heat and brutal weather like acid rain and hurricane force winds as the norm. Oh, and definitely keep your eye out on any two-tailed foxes, because if they ain't glowing, they're definitely an imposter. Possibly an Undine, we caught one of those once in my place once. Oh, and if you find a two-tailed fox that doesn't like the cold... most certainly ask him to say sorry. If he refuses, DESTROY HIM WITH A DOOMSDAY MACHINE, BECAUSE THERE'S NOTHING ELSE THAT WOULD BE ENOUGH AGAINST SUCH AN OVERPOWERED IMPOSTER!
tr;dr, I am winning last post wins 3.0. Thank you for your time.
Manage to evade the Klingons? Nope, there's another one cloaked right there. Look like you might defeat them in battle? Reinforcements arrived sooner than expected. Break through jamming and contact the Klingons? Nope, jamming is too powerful. Still trying? Ok, it worked, but now your universal translator is malfunctioning and the captain isn't sure what a mother trucking pizza ship is but he's still going to kill you for calling him one. Manage to get Starfleet reinforcements? Too bad, Romulans intervened, everybody's dead.
NASA, the military, and many pilot schools use no win scenarios. They don't do them as a test of character, but as a test of endurance - the proctor will continually tax you with unexpected events and system failures until you die. This kind of test is sort of the green light for teachers to be dicks.
If during the fight my transporter officer can get a lock on any survivors aboard the Maru, I would beam them aboard, but I'm not going to go out of my way to do it.
I protected the cargo, the crew and presumably put a nice dent in the enemy fleet - mission achieved
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Even if you managed to bring your own ship into the situation, the only way to "win" is to cheat, because the simulator starts with the cheating first. If you play "fair" against it, you're going to lose.
That being said, Primeverse Kirk apparently just reprogrammed the simulator so it was possible to win. JJverse Kirk reprogrammed the simulator for God Mode. I would have preferred to see the original "cheat", with perhaps one of the test administrators frustratedly trying to find out why attack squadrons Three through Twenty-Seven aren't popping up.
Why?
Quite simple: It's a no win scenario, based on that whatever you do, you end up in a situation you can't win.
So the mission reacts on your actions... If you do nothing, the mission can't proceed.
On the other hand, if you take the test more than three times without cheating, then you're both incapable of thinking "outside the box", and unable to tell when you should stop slamming your head against the wall. Again, a poor candidate for command, as you'll get your entire crew killed pointlessly.
If you take the test three times, use standard starship combat protocols, then decide that there is no winning strategy, you can get a command, but probably not one of Starfleet's really killer ships. Those go to the guys who do things like, say, using escape pods as bombs...
Or 'changing the conditions of the test'. :P
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
There is no solution. Thats the point. And cheating is NOT a solution, thats something KIRK did. ONLY KIRK. In canon. That was an exception.
Personally I would use the Force and using my Sidi Powers © 2014. I would mind trick the Klingons into attacking each other while I beam the crew out. Then finish off any remaining Klingons with my lighting and take the Kobayashi Maru in tow.
Actually, I think Spock and Troi solved it quite nicely.
I wouldn't cross the Klingon border.
Simple.
I hope STO get's better ...
You still lose the Scenario... You don't rescue the Maru.
It's called the 'no-win' scenario for a reason.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Uhura identified the Enterprise as receiving the signal, except it was distorted. I figured along the same lines that the Klingons faked the distress signal.
A good plan is 90% preparation and 10% execution (I think that's a saying, lol). Before even crossing into the neutral zone she evacuates the forward sections of the ship and has several shuttles jury-rigged to produce a warp signature more-or-less matching the mothership's and broadcasting the ship's transponder code.
Proceed to target, dropping out of warp well out of weapons range and coming in slow and "quiet", commanding her ship from the battle bridge, going in with weapons charged but not armed (idea being that if she's spotted, she presents a posture that says, "could blast you but really rather wouldn't").
Klingons spot her, she opens communications using Morse code with her running lights and light-speed radio signals to get them to drop the jamming so she can actually talk to them, while simultaneously targeting the life-signs aboard the Maru for transport. Negotiations fall through after some trading of Klingonese swear words and she fires.
On the Maru.
Using a preprogrammed computer-controlled firing sequence because humanoids are too slow, she disrupts the shields and beams as many people as possible aboard (forget grabbing the whole crew unless you're lucky; there's no time for more than one pass), then as soon as transport is complete immediately goes to warp 1 in whatever direction she happens to be pointing, with the SIF at max power in case there's a Klingon ship in the way (hence evacuating the ship's forward sections). Flip a u-turn after a few seconds and dump everything into the warp drive on a straight-line course back to the border. As she flees, she's blind-firing torpedoes set to proximity detonation out of the rear launcher to discourage pursuit, and sending unmanned shuttles off in several directions to confuse her pursuers with their warp signatures. Objective at this point is get the phekk back to Federation space as fast as Bajoranly possible while giving the enemy as many reasons as possible not to follow.
Basically, start with plan A (sneak 'em out), switch to plan B as needed (talk 'em out), but prepare to implement plan C (scoop-and-scoot) before even entering the Neutral Zone. Helped that by this point she'd already seen real combat several times and had actually dealt with real Klingons before. She began as a noncom and majored in naval weapons during OCS, intending to be a gunnery officer rather than a CO. She didn't even take the test until after she inadvertently wound up with a command at Vega Colony.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I think you win with that.
I would simply send an encrypted message to the Maru to immediately extend their shield around my ship.
Either one of two things will happen:
1. They respond by extending their shields as instructed -> *I extend my ship's shield around the Maru, and, without any shield in the way, I beam up any surviving crew and warp out. No shots fired, less chance for war.
2. They don't, or aren't able to, respond by extending their shield -> the ship is taken or otherwise incapacitated and the crew cannot be saved without risking both my crew and lives lost in a Federation/Klingon war - I warp out immediately back to Federation space.
Short, simple, and reliant on just a few variables that can be easily compensated for. That is, unless I have this scenario completely wrong, which is entirely possible because I haven't seen anything about it in a long time.
Vogon Poetry.
I'm not sure killing your own crew is going to help matters... :P
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
And where and how did Spock and Troi "solve" it?
Well, I did have a backup plan too:
http://youtu.be/q9XJeL2MNpw
Don't remember, but I know Nog bribed the Klingons in one of the EU books and won that way.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Which is a perfect example for "butchering" the concept.
Solving it IS NOT THE POINT. Its NOT SUPPOSED to be solved.
And generally.... it seems that now everybody know that its not to solve and... thats butchering the concept too.
The whole concept is: Send the cadet in while he BELIEVES he can solve it, see his reaction when he fails over and over again. Thats it.
Thats the whole magic.
Nowerdays every author seems to feel the need to make his character "beat" that scenario is someway. Which is butchering the original concept.
Kirk cheating was a character trait that made HIM unique.
Copying that is neither creative from an authors/writers point nor from an in-universe POW.
The WORST part of it the the ONLY time getting it right since WOK itself was one of the worst peaces of Cinema history: The Jar Jar movie.
So all those book authors should be ashamed that even the jar jar trek screenplay writers captured that better then them.
While that may be true in concept, the situation is solveable - this thread alone is proof that there are multiple ways of solving it.
Bottom line: the 'Kobayashi Maru' is a plot device - it doesn't have to hold up to real-world logic. This thread is an example of what happens when we apply real-world logic in a fictional universe to find solutions to one of that fictional universe's puzzles - we find the puzzle's flaws.
I'm all for the creation of a true, 'No Win Scenario,' but the Kobayashi Maru is not one.
The Maru scenario is a computer program, and the one thing a programmer cannot account for is sapients' ingenuity (or stupidity, as various tech support issues I've seen demonstrate). I don't have a problem with believing that over the course of that century, others have managed to find strategies the Maru's dev team didn't consider. To use the case of Nog, who the hell would have expected a Ferengi to turn up in a Starfleet cadet uniform in the first place? I just figure that the team congratulates them on their innovation and then bangs out a patch to stop anybody else from trying it.
I'm sorry if you think it takes away some of the magic of the vaunted Kirk to have others duplicate his achievement through creative thinking. No, actually, I'm not sorry. Go cry in a corner at the death of the franchise if you want; the rest of us will be having fun over here.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Not even sure if you are sarcastic right now.
The situation is NOT solvable. If it were it would be obsolete.
And thread.... what is that supposed to proof? We are dealing with fiction and fictional tech, fan fantasies do not proof anything.
Right its been over a century inverse.
This test, whose premised is based around the person absolving the test does not know the concept of the test, is probably not even part of the academy program any more. And if it were the "dev team" will have adapted.
Again: It not being solvable is the point. I don't know why that is so hard to understand, even the Jar Jar writers got it...