If you do 2 stf and turn in marks and processor it can be 5000
This will take me between 20 and 30 min.
Then you could do foundry for another 2000.
Then academy midterm and fleet dil mine to make up anything lacking.
I can get the 8000 in an hour. So? It is spent easily as well and builds up slowly.
With 3 or 4 to 1 exchange I happily donate a few thousand a day to the fleet.
this is NOT a dilitium run, you are casually playing game, Fleet is not a casual project in this game, it is expected to do some work for it, as you get a decent reword for it. this means playing stf's ground and space. not just causally walking trough universe.
this is NOT a dilitium run, you are casually playing game, Fleet is not a casual project in this game, it is expected to do some work for it, as you get a decent reword for it. this means playing stf's ground and space. not just causally walking trough universe.
But that's my main point, there is no reward to pouring dill into fleet projects at the 1:1 ratio...
But that's my main point, there is no reward to pouring dill into fleet projects at the 1:1 ratio...
Tell me about it, we're well into our tier IV starbase upgrades now and even with a completed dilithium mine the individual upgrades for the facilities are way over 700k dilithium and the starbase IV itself is 1.6 million dilithium. Brutal and as you can imagine with all those upgrades people start to feel the burn over time with project costs like that. A higher FC ratio for dilithium would be welcome in this instance.
"If this will be our end, then I will have them make SUCH an end as to be worthy of rememberance! Out of torpedos you say?! Find me the ferengi!".
Dude get real. 8k is a few STF's Foundry Daily, Defera Daily, Exploration daily, if you have preferred mining claims you can do the astroid and you Dil mine daily. Then do your 3 PVP battles. So you are looking at 2 or more hours of play to do all of that each day. If you can get 8k in 30 min please share.
Voth Battlezone, once a day.
<<start>>
Get all 4 missions from Commander Arnold Schwarzenegger.
Do them.
Do a Voth Dino stage, make sure to tag all the dinos and stay to shoot medics.
Collect rewards.
Process the Voth Cybernetic Implants (VCI) into 1000 Dil each. You should have 6 VCI, equating to 2k dil.
Refine, overcap, and appreciate Cryptic's dev team for giving us this awesome map and way to get through the grind process much faster.
<<end>>
Total time: 15 to 45 mins
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
Agreed with OP. We need a rescaled reward ratio. Say, 1 dilithium gives 10 marks.
Yes, Dilithium is not hard to come by. When Season 9 hits, every ESTF will be worht 1773 dilithium/run (assuming you turn everything into marks) with a bonus for your first ESTF. Say, you will earn 5500 dilithium in a single ESTF run. Depending on your team-forming capabilities (for example, due to me investing a lot of time in new fleet members, they end up in the 20k DPS regions and will most of the time respond to an ESTF call (and for the record, I am a tank that is artificially keeping DPS around 5-6k)), a full ESTF run will take you 15-20 minutes.
Finish that with Academy question, doffing and Aiding the Deferi, and you will have reached around 8k. And otherwise you will max need another 10 minutes for exploration, so 40 minutes is achievable, depending on the DPS of the fleet you join.
So thecosmic1 is correct in that Dilithium can be earned fast. (You are wrong however that it is the easiest to earn, that'll be xp or ec).
However, first off, there is the refining cap. 8k for a new player, 8.5k for a Dilithium Mine T2 (?) player, and 9k for a Veteran Dilithium Mine player. As said above my by groomofweird, upgrades are expensive. VERY expensive. My fleet is now finishing the Dilithium Mine, and we are only a few days away from T4 base upgrades. So to get all the dilithium needed for a huge set of upgrades quickly is hard.
To make it worse, no regular fleet can get all members to contribute Dilithium. Dilithium is needed for Reputation, Crafting, the Store and ZEN conversion as well. New players tend to keep their Dilithium to themselves therefore. And how can we blaim them? We already have our fancy gear, we cannot forbid members to get their hands on their own gear! (well we can, but they will then quickly find the Leave button in the Fleet Roster).
A better rate would be welcome for everyone. Members would get more rewards and therefore more reasons to contribute, while leaders would see their holdings advance faster. I can't think of anyone that would turn down more rewards or faster running projects.
However, whatever argument we give, Cryptic won't do it. The reason is quite simple. Take the 200k projects for example. They can earn a player a Retrofit ship out of the shipyard (not a Fleet Retrofit). Say we make the ratio 1:10. That means 10 ships. Even if we make the ratio 1:2, that means 2 endgame ships for approx 20 dollar worth. Do you see Cryptic accepting this? I don't. Maybe if their copy of the Rules of Acquisition gets replaced by the updated Zek version that was influenced by the Prophets. But if I sat in their chair, I would not do this. It would be an exploit from a developer's point of view.
The suggestion that Dil is easy to get because you can faff about with 4 or 8 toons gathering Dil is ridiculous. That's a thing you can do, yes, and it ought to be a thing you can do if you want to make lots and lots of Dil, but that's not playing the game as most people would think it.
IOW, playing the game for most people is playing one toon and enjoying the game as a game in which you goof off and pretend to be a starship captain for a while, doing various content as suits that feeling. And playing the game in that way ought to net a reasonable reward in all areas - leaving extra good rewards for those who put in the effort for extra good rewards. The game is not designed, or ought not to be designed, as a "pull lever, get stuff" machine, it's a game with some attempt to create a virtual world and I think that's how most of us play it (at least until it gets to the stage of endgame grind, when even with the best will in the world it starts becoming a bit mechanistic).
The point is that for people who play that way, for the average player who enjoys feeling like they're in Star Trek, considering that you have to split the 8k limit between your personal needs and Fleet needs, the Dil value for Fleet stuff is a bit wonky and over-restrictive, a bit undervalued, and I agree. It doesn't need an outrageous hike to the level of Marks, say, but it should be more like 2 or 3 to one.
The suggestion that Dil is easy to get because you can faff about with 4 or 8 toons gathering Dil is ridiculous. That's a thing you can do, yes, and it ought to be a thing you can do if you want to make lots and lots of Dil, but that's not playing the game as most people would think it.
IOW, playing the game for most people is playing one toon and enjoying the game as a game in which you goof off and pretend to be a starship captain for a while, doing various content as suits that feeling. And playing the game in that way ought to net a reasonable reward in all areas - leaving extra good rewards for those who put in the effort for extra good rewards. The game is not designed, or ought not to be designed, as a "pull lever, get stuff" machine, it's a game with some attempt to create a virtual world and I think that's how most of us play it (at least until it gets to the stage of endgame grind, when even with the best will in the world it starts becoming a bit mechanistic).
The point is that for people who play that way, for the average player who enjoys feeling like they're in Star Trek, considering that you have to split the 8k limit between your personal needs and Fleet needs, the Dil value for Fleet stuff is a bit wonky and over-restrictive, a bit undervalued, and I agree. It doesn't need an outrageous hike to the level of Marks, say, but it should be more like 2 or 3 to one.
The game gives you 3 character slots. I guarantee you that the ratio of people with more then 1 character is 10 to 1 to those with only 1 character. Heck, I can point you to someone who posts quite often who has 32 characters. Most people do not only have or play 1 character.
And I never said you need 4-8 characters to make Dilithium. I said that you can make your 8k limit in 30 minutes; and if you have more then 1 character you can make huge amounts of Dilithium in a very short time.
But the real bonus here is that if you can make your cap in 30 minutes you can spend the rest of your play time doing whatever you want without needing to worry about Dilithium, even if you only use 1 character.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
But that's my main point, there is no reward to pouring dill into fleet projects at the 1:1 ratio...
Is not the reward that your Fleet projects get completed - possibly even opening up access to wanted Fleet ships and the like?
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
The suggestion that Dil is easy to get because you can faff about with 4 or 8 toons gathering Dil is ridiculous. That's a thing you can do, yes, and it ought to be a thing you can do if you want to make lots and lots of Dil, but that's not playing the game as most people would think it.
IOW, playing the game for most people is playing one toon and enjoying the game as a game in which you goof off and pretend to be a starship captain for a while, doing various content as suits that feeling. And playing the game in that way ought to net a reasonable reward in all areas - leaving extra good rewards for those who put in the effort for extra good rewards. The game is not designed, or ought not to be designed, as a "pull lever, get stuff" machine, it's a game with some attempt to create a virtual world and I think that's how most of us play it (at least until it gets to the stage of endgame grind, when even with the best will in the world it starts becoming a bit mechanistic).
The point is that for people who play that way, for the average player who enjoys feeling like they're in Star Trek, considering that you have to split the 8k limit between your personal needs and Fleet needs, the Dil value for Fleet stuff is a bit wonky and over-restrictive, a bit undervalued, and I agree. It doesn't need an outrageous hike to the level of Marks, say, but it should be more like 2 or 3 to one.
There's a reason Cryptic now gives us 3 blank character slots when we start a new account (I think?). We're meant to play more than one character, whether it be for grinding, repping, roleplaying, authoring, whatever.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
To all of you saying that youi can get 8k dil in under 2 hours what if you do not want to do elite because of the "get lost noob" attitude that seems to happen on a regular basis or if your fleets dil mine is not t3 or do not want to do the ground battle zone because you hate the ground combat system, what then?
To all of you saying that youi can get 8k dil in under 2 hours what if you do not want to do elite because of the "get lost noob" attitude that seems to happen on a regular basis or if your fleets dil mine is not t3 or do not want to do the ground battle zone because you hate the ground combat system, what then?
You can get 8k dil in 15-45 mins without entering into any Elite queues...
As for refusing to play ground, 1/3 of all fighting content in this game is ground content.
If you are limiting your own options, it really isn't an excuse.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
I personally hate the ground combat system because my experience is get off 1 or 2 shots and then take aggro from all the enemies that can see me distance to me not withstanding and the few times I have done any elite space group content getting called a "f***ing noob" is the politest response I have received, so I refuse to do elite as a result of narrow minded crapheads and a moronic AI.
I also play for fun and if I stay on more than a half hour it starts to grate on my nerves now, so I log off so I do not start to snap at my wife or friends (RL trumps any game in my opinion)
Nitpicking is a time-honored tradition of science fiction. Asking your readers not to worry about the "little things" is like asking a dog not to sniff at people's crotches. If there's something that appears to violate natural laws, then you can expect someone's going to point it out. That's just the way things are.
He has been here over a year and has over 600 posts. I do not believe he falls into the newb category.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Same here. With 8 characters, that's what, 64k dilithium each day that I could make?
It takes stamina and concentration (which is why I use iTunes for PvE grinding), but in the end you will reap the benefits.
Well let's review this shall we, at 8 toons each bringing 8k dilithium would net you 64k.
Traded into a fleet project nets you a whopping 64k FC's, or you could grind a mere 1280 FM's at a astounding 50:1 ratio giving you the same 64k FC's.
Now what would you rather grind, and give up to the fleet for those 64k FC's?
For me and so many other's it's a no brainer, the FM's of course because outside of dumping them for FC's or selling them for dumping for EC's, they are pretty much useless otherwise.
Now dilithium buys you damn near 85% of everything on this game, and IMO is way more valuable than any commodity you can contribute to a fleet, yet commodities themselves along with common doff's give a better trade ration than dilithium.
The only reason Cryptic keeps such a system going, is so people get impatient and purchases dilithium to make money, and also keep the zen/dilithium exchange going no other reason other than those.
well, if they can't, they should learn ,and not ask for freebies.
3 elite stf's may give you 8k in 30 min. with time to spare, i do them in 15m, depending how good team i have. battlezone will give you 8k dili. in 20 min. you just need to find a zone that is active, so dont start in the zone you spawn, but look at other instances.
but sure, i would not mind for dilitium do give more credits.
Getting Dilithium is extremely simple in this game. If you are a moderately skilled player you can get your 8k limit in a half an hour. If you have multiple characters you can make a considerable amount. I routinely earn and Refine 20-25k Dilithium per day without even trying hard. Plus you have events like MI that dump 50k on you for very little effort.
Dilithium is the easiest currency to get in this game; as such it really is not worth more then 1-to-1.
<<start>>
Get all 4 missions from Commander Arnold Schwarzenegger.
Do them.
Do a Voth Dino stage, make sure to tag all the dinos and stay to shoot medics.
Collect rewards.
Process the Voth Cybernetic Implants (VCI) into 1000 Dil each. You should have 6 VCI, equating to 2k dil.
Refine, overcap, and appreciate Cryptic's dev team for giving us this awesome map and way to get through the grind process much faster.
<<end>>
Total time: 15 to 45 mins
//10 Characters
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
Nitpicking is a time-honored tradition of science fiction. Asking your readers not to worry about the "little things" is like asking a dog not to sniff at people's crotches. If there's something that appears to violate natural laws, then you can expect someone's going to point it out. That's just the way things are.
You have to run that one mission and complete it, and then complete the next 3, in order to unlock simultaneous access to all 4 missions. It's silly, but yeah.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
First time in the sphere? Not a dig- I ask because your first entrance to the sphere is sort of a tutorial, where Arnold hands the 4 out 1 at a time as you complete the previous. Once you've "unlocked" them, after they all cool down you can grab them all at once.
1. The poor pay for them. Seriously, even a 2:1 would make people a lot more willing to do so.
2. The amount of dil needed for stuff in the game continues to rise, while the amount of dil you can refine a day remains the same.
3. Donating FMs or Expertise doesn't really 'cost' you anything in a way, Dil does. Seriously, nobody minds donating Expertise (especially if they have millions of it), or FMs (since they are only ever used for the fleet) because there's no real hurt for the person donating it. Giving dil though means giving something that took time or money, and is needed for many other things.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
I have always wanted to know why dill is so under valued in fleet projects?
Dill is one of the most rare and precious resources in the game. Yet the ratio is only 1-1..
I find this shocking tbh. Why is it so low?
It should be 1-3 or even 1-4.
Dunno about you, but my fleet has tons of open projects, with every slot filled except the dill, as it's just not worth contributing it. It is needed for SO many things, and the rubbish fleet credits granted from it puts so many off filling projects.
Any plans to fix this quiet frankly broken game mechanic.?
Comments
this is NOT a dilitium run, you are casually playing game, Fleet is not a casual project in this game, it is expected to do some work for it, as you get a decent reword for it. this means playing stf's ground and space. not just causally walking trough universe.
But that's my main point, there is no reward to pouring dill into fleet projects at the 1:1 ratio...
Tell me about it, we're well into our tier IV starbase upgrades now and even with a completed dilithium mine the individual upgrades for the facilities are way over 700k dilithium and the starbase IV itself is 1.6 million dilithium. Brutal and as you can imagine with all those upgrades people start to feel the burn over time with project costs like that. A higher FC ratio for dilithium would be welcome in this instance.
"If this will be our end, then I will have them make SUCH an end as to be worthy of rememberance! Out of torpedos you say?! Find me the ferengi!".
Voth Battlezone, once a day.
<<start>>
Get all 4 missions from Commander Arnold Schwarzenegger.
Do them.
Do a Voth Dino stage, make sure to tag all the dinos and stay to shoot medics.
Collect rewards.
Process the Voth Cybernetic Implants (VCI) into 1000 Dil each. You should have 6 VCI, equating to 2k dil.
Refine, overcap, and appreciate Cryptic's dev team for giving us this awesome map and way to get through the grind process much faster.
<<end>>
Total time: 15 to 45 mins
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
Yes, Dilithium is not hard to come by. When Season 9 hits, every ESTF will be worht 1773 dilithium/run (assuming you turn everything into marks) with a bonus for your first ESTF. Say, you will earn 5500 dilithium in a single ESTF run. Depending on your team-forming capabilities (for example, due to me investing a lot of time in new fleet members, they end up in the 20k DPS regions and will most of the time respond to an ESTF call (and for the record, I am a tank that is artificially keeping DPS around 5-6k)), a full ESTF run will take you 15-20 minutes.
Finish that with Academy question, doffing and Aiding the Deferi, and you will have reached around 8k. And otherwise you will max need another 10 minutes for exploration, so 40 minutes is achievable, depending on the DPS of the fleet you join.
So thecosmic1 is correct in that Dilithium can be earned fast. (You are wrong however that it is the easiest to earn, that'll be xp or ec).
However, first off, there is the refining cap. 8k for a new player, 8.5k for a Dilithium Mine T2 (?) player, and 9k for a Veteran Dilithium Mine player. As said above my by groomofweird, upgrades are expensive. VERY expensive. My fleet is now finishing the Dilithium Mine, and we are only a few days away from T4 base upgrades. So to get all the dilithium needed for a huge set of upgrades quickly is hard.
To make it worse, no regular fleet can get all members to contribute Dilithium. Dilithium is needed for Reputation, Crafting, the Store and ZEN conversion as well. New players tend to keep their Dilithium to themselves therefore. And how can we blaim them? We already have our fancy gear, we cannot forbid members to get their hands on their own gear! (well we can, but they will then quickly find the Leave button in the Fleet Roster).
A better rate would be welcome for everyone. Members would get more rewards and therefore more reasons to contribute, while leaders would see their holdings advance faster. I can't think of anyone that would turn down more rewards or faster running projects.
However, whatever argument we give, Cryptic won't do it. The reason is quite simple. Take the 200k projects for example. They can earn a player a Retrofit ship out of the shipyard (not a Fleet Retrofit). Say we make the ratio 1:10. That means 10 ships. Even if we make the ratio 1:2, that means 2 endgame ships for approx 20 dollar worth. Do you see Cryptic accepting this? I don't. Maybe if their copy of the Rules of Acquisition gets replaced by the updated Zek version that was influenced by the Prophets. But if I sat in their chair, I would not do this. It would be an exploit from a developer's point of view.
Still, feel free to debate.
Join the Deltas today!
Because it's a sink, is why. It's second closest currency they have (next to Zen) that represents a RL money value; and they want it. Simple as that.
Cryptic are missing out on it :P
LOL. True that. :P
It's designed to slow progress down. So using common sense, it's supposed to be a bad ratio. On purpose. To make this take longer.
IOW, playing the game for most people is playing one toon and enjoying the game as a game in which you goof off and pretend to be a starship captain for a while, doing various content as suits that feeling. And playing the game in that way ought to net a reasonable reward in all areas - leaving extra good rewards for those who put in the effort for extra good rewards. The game is not designed, or ought not to be designed, as a "pull lever, get stuff" machine, it's a game with some attempt to create a virtual world and I think that's how most of us play it (at least until it gets to the stage of endgame grind, when even with the best will in the world it starts becoming a bit mechanistic).
The point is that for people who play that way, for the average player who enjoys feeling like they're in Star Trek, considering that you have to split the 8k limit between your personal needs and Fleet needs, the Dil value for Fleet stuff is a bit wonky and over-restrictive, a bit undervalued, and I agree. It doesn't need an outrageous hike to the level of Marks, say, but it should be more like 2 or 3 to one.
And I never said you need 4-8 characters to make Dilithium. I said that you can make your 8k limit in 30 minutes; and if you have more then 1 character you can make huge amounts of Dilithium in a very short time.
But the real bonus here is that if you can make your cap in 30 minutes you can spend the rest of your play time doing whatever you want without needing to worry about Dilithium, even if you only use 1 character.
There's a reason Cryptic now gives us 3 blank character slots when we start a new account (I think?). We're meant to play more than one character, whether it be for grinding, repping, roleplaying, authoring, whatever.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
You can get 8k dil in 15-45 mins without entering into any Elite queues...
As for refusing to play ground, 1/3 of all fighting content in this game is ground content.
If you are limiting your own options, it really isn't an excuse.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
I also play for fun and if I stay on more than a half hour it starts to grate on my nerves now, so I log off so I do not start to snap at my wife or friends (RL trumps any game in my opinion)
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2014/04/02/nubular
Joined January 2009
Well let's review this shall we, at 8 toons each bringing 8k dilithium would net you 64k.
Traded into a fleet project nets you a whopping 64k FC's, or you could grind a mere 1280 FM's at a astounding 50:1 ratio giving you the same 64k FC's.
Now what would you rather grind, and give up to the fleet for those 64k FC's?
For me and so many other's it's a no brainer, the FM's of course because outside of dumping them for FC's or selling them for dumping for EC's, they are pretty much useless otherwise.
Now dilithium buys you damn near 85% of everything on this game, and IMO is way more valuable than any commodity you can contribute to a fleet, yet commodities themselves along with common doff's give a better trade ration than dilithium.
The only reason Cryptic keeps such a system going, is so people get impatient and purchases dilithium to make money, and also keep the zen/dilithium exchange going no other reason other than those.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
There you go, I fixed that one for free.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Zen can be exchanged for dilithium.
Dilithium is used everywhere in game, especially heavily in fleet projects.
Cryptic/PWE want all da cash.
Therefore dilithium is 1:1 in fleet projects.
Officially Nerfed In Early 2410
8k in 30 minutes? Exactly how?
//10 Characters
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
No, but it was amusing nonetheless. :P
On topic: I wish Dil was at least 1:2 for FC payout.
Joined January 2009
You have to run that one mission and complete it, and then complete the next 3, in order to unlock simultaneous access to all 4 missions. It's silly, but yeah.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
First time in the sphere? Not a dig- I ask because your first entrance to the sphere is sort of a tutorial, where Arnold hands the 4 out 1 at a time as you complete the previous. Once you've "unlocked" them, after they all cool down you can grab them all at once.
1. The poor pay for them. Seriously, even a 2:1 would make people a lot more willing to do so.
2. The amount of dil needed for stuff in the game continues to rise, while the amount of dil you can refine a day remains the same.
3. Donating FMs or Expertise doesn't really 'cost' you anything in a way, Dil does. Seriously, nobody minds donating Expertise (especially if they have millions of it), or FMs (since they are only ever used for the fleet) because there's no real hurt for the person donating it. Giving dil though means giving something that took time or money, and is needed for many other things.
Agreed most passionately.